His thinking is way more distorted than I realized

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I had a brief relationship with my ex where he would generally be this coherent person when talking about anything other than us and would show extreme emotional reactions in regard to any issue between us. Now, we are in limited contact which results in me getting these long texts from him that of course cannot shout, have dismissive facial expressions etc and the line of thought is much more obvious - he never spoke this much during our relationship. And wow. wow. wow. The guy doesn't make any sense. I never realized he was this distorted. I received a longish paragraph that started with how much he hated to be dependent on me during our relationship and that was our demise and ended with his certainty about how I would hire this apartment for him (us? what us?) for a couple of months. He even did some research on it and shared some info. All this because he said he would seek employment somewhere near where I live and I validated him for employment. Wow. Do you think he is aware of the contradictions in this in itself (if not the absurdity) and is doing this from a manipulative perspective or might his thinking be really really distorted? Wow.

[thisworld]

I had a brief relationship with my ex where he would generally be this coherent person when talking about anything other than us and would show extreme emotional reactions in regard to any issue between us. Now, we are in limited contact which results in me getting these long texts from him that of course cannot shout, have dismissive facial expressions etc and the line of thought is much more obvious - he never spoke this much during our relationship. And wow. wow. wow. The guy doesn't make any sense. I never realized he was this distorted. I received a longish paragraph that started with how much he hated to be dependent on me during our relationship and that was our demise and ended with his certainty about how I would hire this apartment for him (us? what us?) for a couple of months. He even did some research on it and shared some info. All this because he said he would seek employment somewhere near where I live and I validated him for employment. Wow. Do you think he is aware of the contradictions in this in itself (if not the absurdity) and is doing this from a manipulative perspective or might his thinking be really really distorted? Wow.

[Lonely_Astro]

I had a brief relationship with my ex where he would generally be this coherent person when talking about anything other than us and would show extreme emotional reactions in regard to any issue between us. Now, we are in limited contact which results in me getting these long texts from him that of course cannot shout, have dismissive facial expressions etc and the line of thought is much more obvious - he never spoke this much during our relationship. And wow. wow. wow. The guy doesn't make any sense. I never realized he was this distorted. I received a longish paragraph that started with how much he hated to be dependent on me during our relationship and that was our demise and ended with his certainty about how I would hire this apartment for him (us? what us?) for a couple of months. He even did some research on it and shared some info. All this because he said he would seek employment somewhere near where I live and I validated him for employment. Wow. Do you think he is aware of the contradictions in this in itself (if not the absurdity) and is doing this from a manipulative perspective or might his thinking be really really distorted? Wow.

It's hard to say, really.  My experience has been that they will say something that won't fit their narrative later, so they'll change in their mind what they said to fit the new parameters and go from there.  I guess I shouldn't say "they", I should say "mine".  J would often times say something about whatever topic we were discussing (weekend plans, future events, past events, etc).  Then, after a few weeks had passed we'd talk about the subject again and she would've distorted/changed what was originally said.  I've had her outright say "I didn't say that" when the complete opposite was true.  On trivial things as well, not just major stuff.

To be more to the point, I think many of them (ok, most of) have distorted thinking.  One of the most extreme ways I can think of was how J went to a wedding in June (I had promised to go with her back in December of last year).  When it came time, I couldn't go for several reasons.  J got distant for the month of July, I later found out she had been dating another guy for that month.  When it came out, I confronted her about it and she said she had done it because she was "tired of being alone."  I didn't know what she meant, so I asked.  She told me that because I wasn't able to go to the wedding, I was going to abandon her, and she decided to move on.  The reason I couldn't go was because I was in the process of separating and being out on a date wasn't in my best interest.  The other side of that coin was that J was also still married (separated, I guess... .not sure anymore) too.  So, her being seen with someone else wasn't in her best interest.  She had told me that she didn't think it was a good idea for me to go with her because her estranged was abusive and she was scared to death he would hurt her (and maybe me) if he found out.  See how distorted that was?  Translation: "I don't want you to go, but I'm going to punish you for doing what I said I wanted."

Then, she had another wedding to attend in late October.  I was going to be her date then, as well.  Last minute I couldn't go because I had to watch my child (emergency, couldn't change plans).  She had been talking about this other guy that had been hitting on her was supposed to be there and she asked me if I still wanted her to go.  I told her that I was uncomfortable with it because of what had happened in July and because the guy was going to be there.  Now, normally I wouldn't have cared, but J and I had been distancing for the month of October, so I was very insecure about it.  She got mad because I "didn't trust her and was being controlling", even though I had laid out my reasons for it.  She was also mad because I had "let her down again".  Though, technically this time wasn't my fault because of the last minute emergency where I had to watch my child (but that was irrelevant to her).  The other part of why I didn't want her to go alone was because how much whining I was going to have to hear about while she was there and afterward ("I'm so alone" "Weddings make me sad" "The bride's getting all the attention, boo hoo hoo hoo for me" - ok that last one was sarcasm.  The other ones were things she had actually text me before when she was at other weddings).  At that point, I just didn't want to hear anymore of the "poor me" routine.

Anyway, yes, they have a hugely distorted way of thinking.  That's because they are mentally ill.

[wakingfirst]

Thisworld, your post helps me because it rings true for me.  It was only at the end, when he was emailing me his rants, that I could see just how distorted his thinking is; how he contradicts himself, doesn't make sense.  It was in front of me in black and white, separate from the power of his voice and presence.  And even then, it took me a while to see it because I was so hurt, so reactive, I would take one line of it and react to that, then another on another day.  But eventually I read it as a whole, with less emotion, and could see it was gobbledygook.  That's when I knew there was no point in continuing in trying to reason with him.  I don't think he was doing it on purpose, I don't think he knew himself that he wasn't making sense. He may have been drunk or high when he wrote it, but even that on it's own wouldn't explain it.  Very sadly, I have to conclude that that was really the state of his mind at that time.  Heartbreaking.  But there is nothing I can do for him.

[thisworld]

It's hard to say, really.  My experience has been that they will say something that won't fit their narrative later, so they'll change in their mind what they said to fit the new parameters and go from there.  I guess I shouldn't say "they", I should say "mine".  J would often times say something about whatever topic we were discussing (weekend plans, future events, past events, etc).  Then, after a few weeks had passed we'd talk about the subject again and she would've distorted/changed what was originally said.  I've had her outright say "I didn't say that" when the complete opposite was true.  On trivial things as well, not just major stuff.

Lonely_Astro, this is so true. I usually received this when he badmouthed me to his confidante harem and made up things about me as well. So, he was unhappy and emotionally unhealthy and felt like that but is different now is our usual narrative - does not explain why he has to make up things that didn't exist though, I mean not just a perspective difference. Like how he didn't let me touch him sexually, to me we were quite active. So, I believe he was manipulating the confidate, too.

In this example, he cannot deny the previous perspective completely because he pestered me so much with me paying for things - what else should I do? he was dysfunctional, came to my place right out of rehab. He would focus on his recovery and find work. What should I do? Starve him? Maybe I should agree to be recycled and starve him really, eat three full meals in front of him everyday and say "see" if that's what he wants.  I got character assassinated behind my back for buying him clothes - which I did. We are talking about a person who came from another city in hospital pyjamas! It is even not genuine. When we talked about it afterwards, I said I understood his point - which I do, but it's not my fault that he delayed and delayed recovery and trying to be functional- and I said maybe living like how he believed would solve this for him. I said he could return me everything I bought - which wasn't much- now that he had access to his clothes. I also said, if he was really feeling bad about breaking my expensive mobile phone he could give me his and I could give him the old spare I had. He got very surprised and asked me what I would do with the clothes. I said I could donate them and feel good for. As you can guess, I got neither the clothes nor the phone and am still portrayed indirectly as a needy, pathetic woman who is showering him with gifts to keep him. (I think he never got over the fact I wasn't a sex starved, needy woman (horrible images about women really) and that my boyfriend before him was a pilot and I ended that amicably. His face would turn red at the sight of an airplane in the sky.)   

Sorry for the vent by the way. But he cannot deny this money aspect now because it's something that represents a value to him (I don't let women look after me - which he does). So, he just said never mind me   which is even more absurd now. Wow, writing to you, I've just realized that he is aware of the contradiction at a superficial level actually. I don't know what happens underneath though.

[thisworld]

Thisworld, your post helps me because it rings true for me.  It was only at the end, when he was emailing me his rants, that I could see just how distorted his thinking is; how he contradicts himself, doesn't make sense.  It was in front of me in black and white, separate from the power of his voice and presence.  And even then, it took me a while to see it because I was so hurt, so reactive, I would take one line of it and react to that, then another on another day.  But eventually I read it as a whole, with less emotion, and could see it was gobbledygook.  That's when I knew there was no point in continuing in trying to reason with him.  I don't think he was doing it on purpose, I don't think he knew himself that he wasn't making sense. He may have been drunk or high when he wrote it, but even that on it's own wouldn't explain it.  Very sadly, I have to conclude that that was really the state of his mind at that time.  Heartbreaking.  But there is nothing I can do for him.

I agree with every word of what you wrote. I also think we are very lucky to have noticed this. I'm even thinking whether all that aggression also served hiding this.

[Lonely_Astro]

It's hard to say, really.  My experience has been that they will say something that won't fit their narrative later, so they'll change in their mind what they said to fit the new parameters and go from there.  I guess I shouldn't say "they", I should say "mine".  J would often times say something about whatever topic we were discussing (weekend plans, future events, past events, etc).  Then, after a few weeks had passed we'd talk about the subject again and she would've distorted/changed what was originally said.  I've had her outright say "I didn't say that" when the complete opposite was true.  On trivial things as well, not just major stuff.

Lonely_Astro, this is so true. I usually received this when he badmouthed me to his confidante harem and made up things about me as well. So, he was unhappy and emotionally unhealthy and felt like that but is different now is our usual narrative - does not explain why he has to make up things that didn't exist though, I mean not just a perspective difference. Like how he didn't let me touch him sexually, to me we were quite active. So, I believe he was manipulating the confidate, too.

In this example, he cannot deny the previous perspective completely because he pestered me so much with me paying for things - what else should I do? he was dysfunctional, came to my place right out of rehab. He would focus on his recovery and find work. What should I do? Starve him? Maybe I should agree to be recycled and starve him really, eat three full meals in front of him everyday and say "see" if that's what he wants.  I got character assassinated behind my back for buying him clothes - which I did. We are talking about a person who came from another city in hospital pyjamas! It is even not genuine. When we talked about it afterwards, I said I understood his point - which I do, but it's not my fault that he delayed and delayed recovery and trying to be functional- and I said maybe living like how he believed would solve this for him. I said he could return me everything I bought - which wasn't much- now that he had access to his clothes. I also said, if he was really feeling bad about breaking my expensive mobile phone he could give me his and I could give him the old spare I had. He got very surprised and asked me what I would do with the clothes. I said I could donate them and feel good for. As you can guess, I got neither the clothes nor the phone and am still portrayed indirectly as a needy, pathetic woman who is showering him with gifts to keep him. (I think he never got over the fact I wasn't a sex starved, needy woman (horrible images about women really) and that my boyfriend before him was a pilot and I ended that amicably. His face would turn red at the sight of an airplane in the sky.)   

Sorry for the vent by the way. But he cannot deny this money aspect now because it's something that represents a value to him (I don't let women look after me - which he does). So, he just said never mind me   which is even more absurd now. Wow, writing to you, I've just realized that he is aware of the contradiction at a superficial level actually. I don't know what happens underneath though.

Don't be sorry for venting.  If you can't do it here, where can you?  It's not like your pwBPD will let you.  Seriously, though, don't be afraid to let it out.  I'm sure it's been pent up far to long.

Interesting story about today.  I haven't spoken to J in almost a week (been away from work) and first thing this morning she was at my door, hotter than a firecracker because I had ignored her text.  Funny thing is, I never got a text and she'd never tell me the contents of it.  Also, my phone had died (as in dead, not a battery charge issue), so I couldn't have gotten the message anyway.

She tried to get me to engage her and I wouldn't ("today's been a rough day" "I had a rough weekend" etc).  I literally didn't care.  Her problems aren't my problems.  But, to keep on topic point, this is how distorted her thinking is: I told her that we weren't going to be speaking to each other on a personal level starting the 1st.  I told her because she had chosen to be with R that we deserved to go our separate ways and if she wanted to say anything to me to think about it and tell me by the end of the month.  Do you know what her response was?  "That's your decision, I understand, but I'm not with R but ok."  So even in the face of her dating another guy, alienating me for 3 months, and saying to me "I can't and wont make any promises to you", she still sees me as the one leaving her.

BPD. :-/

[thisworld]

I think if they leave us and we accept it and don't beg or die, that means that we left them. BPD )

When he complained to me about how I didn't fight for it in the end, I said to him that he dumped me 10 times in one week and I'm a woman who has self-respect, he gave me a shocked look like he had never heard this concept before. I don't think my ex perceives a framework that includes some values or abstraction. He only thinks at the "I want this" level.

[Lonely_Astro]

I think if they leave us and we accept it and don't beg or die, that means that we left them. BPD )

When he complained to me about how I didn't fight for it in the end, I said to him that he dumped me 10 times in one week and I'm a woman who has self-respect, he gave me a shocked look like he had never heard this concept before. I don't think my ex perceives a framework that includes some values or abstraction. He only thinks at the "I want this" level.

I really saw the distorted thinking today.  I mean she came to my office door first thing upset I didn't reply to a (most likely nonexistent) text from her but yet she may or may not reply to me and that's ok (hi, double standard).  Next, I'm leaving her because I didn't agree to be her cuckold doormat.  Yep, that about sums it up. 

[thisworld]

I think speaking distracts us a bit, there are facial expressions and many other things. Distortions are revealed so much in written language when you add all things. And shame on us for constantly misunderstanding who they are/aren't with. 

[GreenEyedMonster]

I'm away and typing on a tablet, so feeling a bit declawed, but I wanted to reply to this.

Yes.  I totally identify with this.   The letters my ex wrote me are by far the strangest interactions we ever had.  They put his mental illness on display,  in full view.

You have probably seen it said on this board that for pwBPD, feelings are facts.   This is true, but I've also noticed that my ex is very narrative oriented.   By this I mean that his entire life is revised in hindsight into a coherent story in which he is the hero and anyone who wrongs him is a terrible villain.  When I am painted black, if I tell him to have a nice day I am "stalking" him.  If I am attracted to him, I am desperate.   He launches a smear campaign against me to cement the narrative by getting other people to believe it. 

For anyone paying attention, the narrative leaves out important details.  For example,  my ex sent me a letter in October threatening me with a PPO that completely omitted the several times he'd agreed to see me of his own accord, especially the time we talked for two hours!  It was like it never happened,  because it didn't fit his narrative at that moment.   If he changes his mind about me, the narrative will change accordingly.   I suspect this is why he's careful who he tells.  He either knows that they will see the parts that are missing, or he is leaving room to change his mind later.

He is aware of the contradiction on an intellectual level, but he needs his version to be true so badly that he'll rationalize it endlessly.  Many of the stories of his past are highly improbable,  and he looks noticeably relieved when you believe him.

This is part of the reason I'm very publicly seeing someone else.  It completely contradicts his narrative.

[Lonely_Astro]

I'm away and typing on a tablet, so feeling a bit declawed, but I wanted to reply to this.

Yes.  I totally identify with this.   The letters my ex wrote me are by far the strangest interactions we ever had.  They put his mental illness on display,  in full view.

You have probably seen it said on this board that for pwBPD, feelings are facts.   This is true, but I've also noticed that my ex is very narrative oriented.   By this I mean that his entire life is revised in hindsight into a coherent story in which he is the hero and anyone who wrongs him is a terrible villain.  When I am painted black, if I tell him to have a nice day I am "stalking" him.  If I am attracted to him, I am desperate.   He launches a smear campaign against me to cement the narrative by getting other people to believe it. 

For anyone paying attention, the narrative leaves out important details.  For example,  my ex sent me a letter in October threatening me with a PPO that completely omitted the several times he'd agreed to see me of his own accord, especially the time we talked for two hours!  It was like it never happened,  because it didn't fit his narrative at that moment.   If he changes his mind about me, the narrative will change accordingly.   I suspect this is why he's careful who he tells.  He either knows that they will see the parts that are missing, or he is leaving room to change his mind later.

He is aware of the contradiction on an intellectual level, but he needs his version to be true so badly that he'll rationalize it endlessly.  Many of the stories of his past are highly improbable,  and he looks noticeably relieved when you believe him.

This is part of the reason I'm very publicly seeing someone else.  It completely contradicts his narrative.

J is a waif, so I never really saw an outward rage from her.  Her weapon of choice is ST.  She would ST for various reasons (some I knew, others I didn't).  So what I saw from her the most when something didn't fit her narrative was gas lighting or just bald face lying.  Let's not forget the "misunderstandings", either. 

I'm looking forward to the 1st.  I made a clearly defined break off period, which gives her time to say whatever she needs to be said before I go NC (including at work, besides if I need something from her department).  I suspect she'll opt to go silent after tomorrow, but that's ok too.  I found the past week of not talking to her to be somewhat of a relief and just as I was starting to feel better, bam... .she literally walked back into my life.  She fully doesn't see (or care) that she's been with R for (at least) a couple of weeks now.  The narrative in her head is that she's waiting on me to make a decision (to stay with her or leave), even though there is no decision to be made.  I told her this today when she "wanted to discuss things."  Right after I told her that, ST. 

In case I haven't said it, I have her a Christmas present that I bought long before she distanced me for the last time.  It's a meaningful gift and I had planned to give it to her tomorrow as a parting gift.  A sort of last wish, if you will.  I told her I needed to give it to her before the 1st because of my deadline.  I'm actually thinking about just tossing it in the trash, as the meaning of it will be lost on her at this point.  Though she is funny about gifts.  I gave her one shortly after we ended 4 years ago too and she kept it on her desk.  Not sure why.  She may do that with this one as well, but I'm just not sure what kind of message that would really send to her.

Funny how at the end of this I'm still thinking about how it will impact her. 

[wakingfirst]

Me again - chiming in to agree.  Yes, when my ex would blow up at me and turn his back, if I didn't pursue him it registered with him as me walking away from him.  When I'd eventually contact him, he'd act like a beaten dog, cowering and asking 'Are you still angry with me?'  But it was he who was angry, not me!  If I pointed this out, he'd just look confused.  I don't think he knew he was changing the story, I don't think he's that good an actor.  And yes, he also rewrote the narrative of his life all the time to make himself the hero.  I'm embarrassed to admit it's only now, when i'm free of him, that I'm realizing the many stories he had of him coming to others' rescue and others turning on him - FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER - could not all have been true.  But he'd get so sulky if you questioned him. 

[GreenEyedMonster]

Me again - chiming in to agree.  Yes, when my ex would blow up at me and turn his back, if I didn't pursue him it registered with him as me walking away from him.  When I'd eventually contact him, he'd act like a beaten dog, cowering and asking 'Are you still angry with me?'  But it was he who was angry, not me!  If I pointed this out, he'd just look confused.  I don't think he knew he was changing the story, I don't think he's that good an actor.  And yes, he also rewrote the narrative of his life all the time to make himself the hero.  I'm embarrassed to admit it's only now, when i'm free of him, that I'm realizing the many stories he had of him coming to others' rescue and others turning on him - FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER - could not all have been true.  But he'd get so sulky if you questioned him. 

All of this is so familiar to me.  For every bad thing my ex had done, there was some story about why he HAD to do it.  He would tell them with this hint of fear, looking at me with these sad puppy eyes, pleading with me to believe him.  If I questioned it, I'd get further rationalization or plain old defensiveness.   

Some days, I'd hear the story of how my ex's former fiancee broke their engagement and was going to abandon him, so he abandoned her first.  Other times I'd hear about how she was plotting to kill him.  Then I'd hear about how she was going to stalk him after the relationship,  or how she was going to keep him as a sex slave.  In more lucid moments,  he'd confess his guilt about abandoning her two disabled sons, but always with the caveat that he HAD to.  It took me a surprisingly long time to realize that there was no way all of these stories could be true.

He also turned our relationship into a narrative of how he met "the one."  The stories he told himself about who I was and what I had to offer weren't all true either.  Everything he told himself was based on what he wanted or needed,  not reality.

I make it my personal mission to quietly blow up his narratives about me when I get the chance.   He does tend to change course for strong written evidence,  but things that exist only in memory are subject to alteration.

I wonder if he still maintains to his friends that I am stalking him, or if his knowledge of my new relationship has him shifting to an abandonment narrative. His cyberstalking of me has markedly decreased,  so something has changed in his perception.

And yes, I've had him get very angry at me only to claim later that I am angry at him.

[thisworld]

Me again - chiming in to agree.  Yes, when my ex would blow up at me and turn his back, if I didn't pursue him it registered with him as me walking away from him.  When I'd eventually contact him, he'd act like a beaten dog, cowering and asking 'Are you still angry with me?'  But it was he who was angry, not me!  If I pointed this out, he'd just look confused.  I don't think he knew he was changing the story, I don't think he's that good an actor.  And yes, he also rewrote the narrative of his life all the time to make himself the hero.  I'm embarrassed to admit it's only now, when i'm free of him, that I'm realizing the many stories he had of him coming to others' rescue and others turning on him - FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER - could not all have been true.  But he'd get so sulky if you questioned him. 

I'm so familiar with these wakingfirst, and my heart goes out to you. These are not easy to leave with. I think, no, I'm almost sure that these men are nore angry with us than they show. I think my ex was passive/covertly aggressive and maybe this is because of his identified gender norms. Yes, he would be boyish and childlike - dumping me in my house and going and sitting at the balcony- but he wouldn't open his feelings about this until after the end. I think that perception of us as angry women may have resulted in a lot of passive/covert aggression that  maybe we even didn't notice much in the middle of everything else going on. The rescuer, yes, my ex BPD was a rescuer, too. In his case, it's total BS.

[thisworld]

I'm away and typing on a tablet, so feeling a bit declawed, but I wanted to reply to this.

Yes.  I totally identify with this.   The letters my ex wrote me are by far the strangest interactions we ever had.  They put his mental illness on display,  in full view.

This is part of the reason I'm very publicly seeing someone else.  It completely contradicts his narrative.

This. Mental illness on display. My ex has a definite flair for writing, too. He is so admired on FB for this. He builds up beautiful sentences, he writes poems! But read what he writes beyond the superficial aesthetics, it's a very ill person speaking. He writes very aggressive "social criticism" on FB - totally unfounded stuff actually, "ode to a clique" I would say- and he gets these likes:)) This is one of his façades. (One which I envy actually:))

And GEM, yes again. In that order: Puppy eyes, rationalization, defensiveness. Very quickly, there was less puppy eyes, more growling defensiveness. Very dismissive facial expressions as well.

I heard "They would leave me I left them", "they thought I would leave them, so they left me". I heard both.

How do you blow up his narratives? 

[Lonely_Astro]

Me again - chiming in to agree.  Yes, when my ex would blow up at me and turn his back, if I didn't pursue him it registered with him as me walking away from him.  When I'd eventually contact him, he'd act like a beaten dog, cowering and asking 'Are you still angry with me?'  But it was he who was angry, not me!  If I pointed this out, he'd just look confused.  I don't think he knew he was changing the story, I don't think he's that good an actor.  And yes, he also rewrote the narrative of his life all the time to make himself the hero.  I'm embarrassed to admit it's only now, when i'm free of him, that I'm realizing the many stories he had of him coming to others' rescue and others turning on him - FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER - could not all have been true.  But he'd get so sulky if you questioned him. 

I'm so familiar with these wakingfirst, and my heart goes out to you. These are not easy to leave with. I think, no, I'm almost sure that these men are nore angry with us than they show. I think my ex was passive/covertly aggressive and maybe this is because of his identified gender norms. Yes, he would be boyish and childlike - dumping me in my house and going and sitting at the balcony- but he wouldn't open his feelings about this until after the end. I think that perception of us as angry women may have resulted in a lot of passive/covert aggression that  maybe we even didn't notice much in the middle of everything else going on. The rescuer, yes, my ex BPD was a rescuer, too. In his case, it's total BS.

J is definitely passive aggressive.  

Distortion alert: I have set out a deadline for when we aren't going to talk anymore (1st), which I've told her (and why).  I told her I would take the next couple of days to listen to her if she wants to talk to me.  :)uring that time, a co-worker of ours was leaving the area and J said to her "we're going to fight when you leave."  The co-worker replied "nothing wrong with that as long as you make up afterward."  J's response?  "I wish we could make up like that."  Wtf?  The worker left and I said "we've made up like that plenty of times."  She asked me "why can't we just do it again?"  I believe she was dead serious.  I flatly said "you know why."  And she replied "oh my god, it was dinner one... .(I held up 2 fingers) two times.  All I did was listen because I usually do all the talking because I'm such a mess.  It won't be happening again. He's weird and the only weird person I want in my life is you."  I just looked at her and replied "you missed the point. You chose to go on two dates with him and since it apparently didn't work out, you want me to hang around.  You totally missed the point that you chose to explore another option.  It happened to not work out, but the fact that was your choice should tell you why we can't makeup this time."  With that, I left the conversation.

Unbelievable.

[thisworld]

Me again - chiming in to agree.  Yes, when my ex would blow up at me and turn his back, if I didn't pursue him it registered with him as me walking away from him.  When I'd eventually contact him, he'd act like a beaten dog, cowering and asking 'Are you still angry with me?'  But it was he who was angry, not me!  If I pointed this out, he'd just look confused.  I don't think he knew he was changing the story, I don't think he's that good an actor.  And yes, he also rewrote the narrative of his life all the time to make himself the hero.  I'm embarrassed to admit it's only now, when i'm free of him, that I'm realizing the many stories he had of him coming to others' rescue and others turning on him - FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER - could not all have been true.  But he'd get so sulky if you questioned him. 

I'm so familiar with these wakingfirst, and my heart goes out to you. These are not easy to leave with. I think, no, I'm almost sure that these men are nore angry with us than they show. I think my ex was passive/covertly aggressive and maybe this is because of his identified gender norms. Yes, he would be boyish and childlike - dumping me in my house and going and sitting at the balcony- but he wouldn't open his feelings about this until after the end. I think that perception of us as angry women may have resulted in a lot of passive/covert aggression that  maybe we even didn't notice much in the middle of everything else going on. The rescuer, yes, my ex BPD was a rescuer, too. In his case, it's total BS.

J is definitely passive aggressive.  

Distortion alert: I have set out a deadline for when we aren't going to talk anymore (1st), which I've told her (and why).  I told her I would take the next couple of days to listen to her if she wants to talk to me.  :)uring that time, a co-worker of ours was leaving the area and J said to her "we're going to fight when you leave."  The co-worker replied "nothing wrong with that as long as you make up afterward."  J's response?  "I wish we could make up like that."  Wtf?  The worker left and I said "we've made up like that plenty of times."  She asked me "why can't we just do it again?"  I believe she was dead serious.  I flatly said "you know why."  And she replied "oh my god, it was dinner one... .(I held up 2 fingers) two times.  All I did was listen because I usually do all the talking because I'm such a mess.  It won't be happening again. He's weird and the only weird person I want in my life is you."  I just looked at her and replied "you missed the point. You chose to go on two dates with him and since it apparently didn't work out, you want me to hang around.  You totally missed the point that you chose to explore another option.  It happened to not work out, but the fact that was your choice should tell you why we can't makeup this time."  With that, I left the conversation.

Unbelievable.

I think we, too, miss the point, too. And we are actually more unbelievable. Here is where I have missed the point and was unbelievable:

1. Holding an almost religious belief that if I explained it one more time, the person would have an "A ha" moment. No, they wouldn't. They actually know. They are raised in the same culture and are aware of the conventions that bind people. Just hear my ex giving relationship advice to other people, so mature so sane. If it didn't happen in ours, it didn't happen because of this. It happened because of things that can be helped with therapy, medication, self-help etc. Not with explanation.

2. Believing that we were dealing with a complex problem. What is it we were dealing with really? Emotional cheating, physical cheating... .What were they doing? Playing people, stringing people along. If this turns into a long long issue (I think we Nons need to have a serious look at ourselves as to why) there is something wrong. We were not discussing the Phenomenology of the Spirit, we were? This is what I was discussing "If you make up lies about us and me and badmouth me to your ex-lover confidante, that's hurtful." Oh, really? He knows anyway; given his relationship history, I wasn't the first person coming up with this. And, do the same things to them and see what happens, of course they know. And I discussed this even if I had promised myself that I would never do it in my life. Unbelievable.

3. Al-anon says insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I'm, again, unbelievable.

4. I consider myself a rational person. Treating my ex as a rational person and talking along those lines is not rational. It's only half-rational.

I think effects of infantilizing and the manipulative technique of feigning innocence can be discussed in related to these as well.

[GreenEyedMonster]

It's easy to forget, I think, that these elaborate, unrealistic rationalizations they create exist for their own benefit,  and our involvement is incidental.  Remember that pwBPD are willing to just dispose of us if we don't buy in.  Convincing us isn't the main objective;  the idea is to surround themselves with an insulating bubble of people who see them in a certain way so that they don't have to confront their own flaws.  The main victim of their manipulations is themselves.

I think this is a large part of why my ex is so alone.  He just can't get enough people to buy into his bizarre explanations.   He completely and remorselessly cuts loose Facebook friends who question it.  He basically spends his life alone with his disabled brother and another male friend who very well may have BPD also.  He needs his rationalizations more than he needs any other person,  and that is really sad. 

My ex is even tentative with my friends because they might confront him.  He waits for me to show that I'm not mad at him (when he was mad at me first!) so that I can stick my head back in the guillotine.   I have yet to see how desperate he is to find out if I will forgive him, but my feeling right now is that he needs the belief that I'm evil far more than he needs me!

[thisworld]

You are very right, BPD and NPD manipulation serves to sustain a reality, albeit with different motives. Our involvement is incidental, staying in its zone believing that it can be remedied is another issue though.

On another note, I know that your ex is very fearful of you. I know that some borderlines get very scared of NPDs after a while, they literally lose it around them. I've read in a forum that this happens because they don't know how to establish boundaries so they come up with extreme reactions. I know my ex perceives me as a cold and unloving person because I don't go over emotional and crazy. I think he can't understand why I'm like that because he isn't aware of the executive function that results in the choice to keep a level-head (I read something about this here). So maybe, he thinks this is how I am, flat. And maybe they are scared of us the way maybe we would be around a NPD or ASPD if we were traumatised by them. As you say, we represent annihilation.   

[didionit]

This entire thread was exactly what I needed to read as I'm tempted to break NC--a healthy dose of reality.  Whenever I feel the urge to check to see if anything has changed, well... .the repetition of the same patterns here, across all of our relationships, is a towering reminder that the most likely outcome is that nothing has. 

Thanks for fighting the good fight, everyone!

[didionit]

Also, thisworld, EXACTLY.  My ex's favorite accusation was that I didn't 'know how to love' and I 'couldn't feel magic' and I was 'cold and hard' because I questioned the immediate, intense ardor that he displayed, and the fact that his assertion that I was his soulmate seemed to largely be based on... .nothing.  On projection.  But certainly not on shared experience, mutual respect and caring, and empathy.  Any questioning that I did, however mild, was met with anger and verbal abuse--that I foolishly tried to counter with logic. 

[thisworld]

I wish I could say this to my ex as I am yet another fridge who can't feel the magic: "Oh yes, the magic of starting with Nick Cave and ending up with Norman Bates."

Only, I won't because he will never understand and it will be much much worse for me.

Oh, I particularly miss the magic of sexual control, near-rape things, push/pull even during sex, and withdrawal of intimacy whenever. The day he broke stuff in the house after his emotional affair was especially wonderful. Invalidations and dismissals, passive agression, oh my, lovely.

I know I'm so cold because all of a sudden he just fell in love with me again in the space of a paragraph and asked us to meet on the first of January. Me taking the first intercity bus and meeting him. (I'm still trying to tidy up all sorts of mess he caused by the way).

And the day I was coldest: Wanting to visit my relative in the hospital (cancer operation), him protesting "And what's gonna happen to me?" And me getting surprised. What an ice queen I am :'(

[GreenEyedMonster]

The fundamental problem in my relationship was not that I was too cold, but that I turned out to be too needy for my ex.  I'm a very low maintenance girlfriend,  but I care more than men expect.  I tend to hold my expectations very low early in relationships,  and men mistakenly believe that the relationship will continue that way.  My ex wanted to be a single man with the benefits of a girlfriend,  and I was having none of that.

I have come to think of pwBPD as emotional reptiles.   Like a lizard, they can't regulate themselves internally, so they need the emotional equivalent of a hot rock in the sun.  (That's us.)  If we don't stay the right temperature for Goldilocks, they leave.  The key here is internal regulation by controlling the external environment, whether through lies, stories,  threats, etc.

Given my absence, my ex is checking out the girls in his book club again.   That seems to be how he consoles himself, looking for another warm rock... .

[thisworld]

My ex has a point actually. Sometimes I was almost paralysed. My ex had a cognitive problem, related to BPD. Neutral facial expressions felt cold and negative to him. Smile too much on a day when he was irritable, he would vocally hate it. I tried to be calm and positive with a smile, but even that is so much control on his behalf. Also, he was so defensive that he felt slighted at every little thing - nothing. Have a completely unrelated joke, he may blow up. This was a big problem because I actually like irony and sarcasm. (I don't use it as a passive aggressive weapon though, most of my sarcasm is about myself and I do it laughingly). Still, not permitted. What do you do with all these? Smile lightly and be calm, level-headed. And then, where is the magic:))

[VitaminC]

Smile lightly and be calm, level-headed. And then, where is the magic:))

This is so true. Be calm, level-headed, offer a validating, rational, empathetic, atmosphere. Expect the same emotional reactions and ability to care for you as you would from a 2-year-old. Have a lot of self-control and keep the focus on saying everything in the most neutral and gentle way possible. Always show a level of interest that is appropriate to the constantly shifting moods and needs (which you must perceive without ever being told it).   Yes, that is the kind of magic that I was looking for.

[didionit]

VitaminC:  HA.  Too true.  I think we can all agree that we can do without that brand of 'magic' that they think we're incapable of seeing.