Advice needed -Do I reach out one last time?

[cherryblossom]

Hi   I'm talking about a very recent ex BPD here was advised to post on this board - he is someone that I love deeply and would like the air to be clear between us regardless about getting back into a romantic relationship. He is capable of causing me emotional pain however - I felt pain last time we met in Jan 2016 (at mutual friend bday party) as he looked shadow of self and thinks he is "evil".

I want to keep this short and readable so wont go into lots about that night (you could read my last thread if you search for it under my name)

we split as his drinking increased which increased erratic behaviour / self harming -he made our home feel very unsafe for me -he declined to seek the next stage of his treatment -he was advised long term psychotherapy-and declined to listen to info on alcohol not being a useful coping strategy in long term and poor impact on mood/thought patterns - he had given up with recovery basically after fighting hard to keep on board-we have not had heart to heart normal conversation since -he has been drunk each time we tried to (split Sep 2015 -we were renting I left flat Oct 2016 he remained there til Dec he now has another place )

just before xmas I had requested a break from communicating I suggested 6 weeks n/c unless about unavoidable practical flat stuff and hopefully we will be in a space to clear air -he replied he would be up for that -he stuck to nc

In between this 6 weeks nc was his bday -I deliberated whether to wish hbd -sought advice on here -decided to leave it -he tried ringing me but I was driving -I texted back to say id decided not to make contact as he had ended relations with me

((now I have relooked at this message and I now think this could have been misconstrued I didn't specifically say  I decided not to wish you happy bday- I said I decided against making contact -so I think it reads like I went against the idea of contact after 6 weeks))

6 weeks came and went and he didn't make contact which upset me I didn't contact as felt he should be one to make first move

when I saw him at a party he tried to say hello but I was less than pleased to see him as I was upset he hadn't contacted me -when we talked he said he did try and contact -but I said that but he didn't try and contact me at 6 weeks and that this party wasn't right place to have a conversation

a friend pointed out he could have sought clarification if he was that bothered at the 6 week mark -but I think that if he feels intense shame etc, etc... .he might have found it too hard to seek clarification

I'm the one with better health - should I reach out?

I did send him a text that night to say I'm sorry -perhaps we could have sought clarification about whether we were going to be at party and try to smooth things out before -I sent another where I was a bit rescuey -I said things such as ---have you read about splitting?... .have you read that you can recover from BPD?

few days later he said by text -yeah I know -it's not your worry and went on to tell me deposit released

I replied to say I know but I do worry about you I don't want u to destroy self -I'm saying that as a friend no strings attached -also it is my worry as don't know what u'l say or behave like if our paths cross again... .

he didn't reply to that or to any more texts about deposit -even though he is lead tenant and it will be released to him and be down to him to split with me

I sent text to say it feels like he is unable to communicate with me right now I will wait until he feels ready

nothing for 1 1/2 week

last week he text apologising about a internet bill that came out my account by mistake (nothing about deposit)

I thanked him and checked -he said he would pay back straight away (Sunday)

I looked last night he hasn't paid it back

I sent text saying hey could he just clarify as cant see a payment from him?

So do I write off deposit and this bill? -I feel like he is wanting me to respond with anger -but I will not -I don't want to create extinction burst - I responded angrily to him before xmas about rent money as he didn't pay it to me when he said he would -so I feel like he is testing me -think i'll give it 2 weeks without saying anything about money and give benefit of doubt he will pay it


shall I reach out and send text seeking clarification if he does want to clear air? and sorry for mix up with communication about the 6 week contact plan? if so when? -wait until he pays me money?

I hate this tension between us -if we cannot have a relationship ok -but we were very special to each other and were very in love for long time before we had some difficulties which he chose to stop working on -but I'm not perfect as in this ending time I don't think I communicated amazingly well and at that point didn't know he had BPD only found out at end  -he has positive qualities -I feel that if we could repair the relationship somehow on some level -it would help his recovery -I love him that much that I want to be bigger person and set him free -I feel it is wrong for him to shoulder all the burden of the relationship fail and to think he is evil

or to truly help his recovery would he need to make 1st move and reach out to me and seek clarification from me?



any advice help appreciated

many thanks in advance

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[cherryblossom]

this thread helped

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95860.msg12035007#msg12035007



I am in therapy -my therapist told me not to reach out as would be seeking external salvation rather than internal

Just still get caught up

I would never get back with him properly unless there was clear evidence of commitment to recovery and that does not seem likely -but for my own selfish reasons I do not hate him and although I'm finding it hard to let go I will I'm just realising I will have to let go but still have love in my heart cos that ran so deep it will never go (or it will with more therapy and healing!)

[Grey Kitty]

For me, personally, the relationship / communication issues you describe would be a lot more significant than the money issues you mentioned, but I'm not very triggered around money. To clarify your feelings, can you answer a couple things?

Q1: Are these money issues around the deposit and internet bill the first conflict you have had over money?

Q2: Will this amount of money make a real difference in your life / budget?

[cherryblossom]

Hi no he was always good with money and respecful and it was always equal. What would a good way to proceede be just no contact til he contactd me or is there something i could say - any suggestions of an example text wiuld b gratefully rrceived thanks

[Grey Kitty]

OK, my advice is to drop the money issues, and deal with the six-week relationship break instead.

I think figuring out what to write in a text is easy if you know what you want to say and what you want with him... .and you sound kinda confused and conflicted, so lets try to sort that out.

If I remember the story, you and he had a breakup (I think he left?) and agreed to spend six weeks cooling off... .then had a rather awkward brief exchange or two, where you both sounded kinda defensive, hurt, and like neither of you was able to communicate a clear desire to try again in that.

So... .what do you want?

What is your dream of reconnecting with him, how would that go?

What are the aspects of that which you *know* he isn't capable of, and how do you feel about working around those?

[cherryblossom]

Thanks for opening a dialogue with me Grey Kitty

-the way it stands atm -makes me feel like there is unfinished business with us

I actually sent a text in between your response to me on Sunday 6th march saying:

"still no payment? I may be wrong and pls correct me if I am, I don't want to insult your intelligence, it feels like there is something deeper going on than money-am I right? Is there something you wanted to communicate?"

with what you've asked me-


I guess a lot of it lies on whether he is ready to do his part of the work necessary for our relationship to survive -I would do mine because I take personal growth v seriously

My ideal dream wish would be that he would somehow be able to reflect on our shared wish/dream at beginning to create a relationship that was open, equal and honest -that we would eventually live contented in a house near some woods and stream as this is what his grandparents did and he loved them v much and we would share that ideal image and look up to it-he showed me their beautiful cottage and their graves that were next to each other- that he would regain some self esteem and believe in what he has to offer the relationship and life. That he would stop using alcohol as a means of coping strategy for mental distress.

I know he cannot stop the fact he has ocd and BPD -but he had a good stab at recovery and is psychologically minded- I feel he is having a setback and I feel he has it in him to learn from psychotherapy the way his past unmet needs are damaging his current relationship

If in this final attempt of reaching out he clearly states to me some valid reasons why he does not want to be with me -then I would find letting go easier

I know if someone does not / cannot change then I could be waiting for ever

I'm actually on a 10 day family interventions course with work and it is helping me view things from a systemic perspective

Yes he decided being "out" the relationship was better than "in" -he said he loved me, fancied me wants to sleep with me but doesn't want to be "in" a relationship with me -and I could never get to the bottom of what this meant at the end

I think he feels he has more power "out" the relationship but even though he is "out" I still feel we are "in" something together -this communication / behaviour with money makes me feel he wants to be "in" something but in v dysfunctional way

I feel bad for anything I may have done to contribute to him feeling that "out " of our relationship was better than being "in"-however I feel a lot of it was internally generated by him and low self esteem

I like to be able to reflect these ideas to him

I don't know whether without outside professional help whether he/we will be able to see our dysfucntional relationship behaviour-he has mentioned feeling "evil" because he cannot enjoy anything "good" - I can work round that he has these distorted thoughts -but it will be impossible to have a relationship unless he gets help to get these thoughts in balance

If he sees relationships as power struggles and does not do the hard work to learn to be able to tolerate an equal loving relationship then it wont work with us as I am not interested in an unequal / unbalanced / one up one down relationship -I genuinely believe he has it in him to be able to do this -it just feels very precarious on how / when he will start to see the light -or even if -I know I cannot force it -this is my dilemma - I cannot wait forever for this

He seems to have developed a sense of entitlement and he is a very angry man presently -this anger is getting misdirected out everywhere -which makes it volatile especially with his drinking -he gets into fights with strangers -this is hard to work around

I am thinking of sending

"I think of you often -I hope you are ok- I am open to having a chat /listening to anything you want to say"

what do you think?

I've learned about the very deep psychological reasons the way he is behaving -it's just whether he will be able to see them eventually -or if he wants to -or if he does still love me -I could be deluding myself -but I don't think he would be acting the f'ed up way he is if he didn't

I acted in a very caretaking/rescuing role in our relationship -so my next dilemma should he wish to meet me -is how to make sure it doesn't go down that path again----i guess lots of validating, listening, boundaries

if he doesn't respond to this then i think I will be able to accept more that it is over and that I have done all I can -I will forget the money and just accept the scenario for what it is and hope in time I meet someone who wants to experience a loving relationship in the same way as I do

[Grey Kitty]

What you seem to be saying is you need him to make a bunch of changes and behave a lot better in a relationship than he did before you two split.

I don't see that kind of change as very realistic. Especially since he hasn't even promised to try to deal with all his stuff and treat you better! And even if he did promise, I doubt he is capable of doing much better at least without months or (more likely) years of effort on his part.

If he agrees to try again, he will probably start by painting you white for a while, and you will have a (likely very brief) honeymoon... .then he will fall into the same patterns you've come to know soon.

Unless you think YOU can do things sufficiently differently that you are willing to accept his bad behavior as part of the package of who he is, nothing is going to get better.

[cherryblossom]

I dont know where uv got the impression im not willing to do work from? I do get what ur saying - and i know he hasnt - but if he did become dedicated to change id b dedicated to change also - r u saying i need to give up and let ho im confused because at one point u were saying i need to deal with the 6 week break in communication now i feel u r back tracking and saying not to bother - can u please help me understand what ur saying?

[cherryblossom]

Im not deluded i know im part of the problem as BPD is a relational difficulty- i dont understand where u got the impression im not willing to change from?

[cherryblossom]

Im unclear what ur agenda is with this advice giving? That people with BPD shouldnt b in relationships end of?

At one point i felt u were going to give advice on how to open dialogue between me and my exBPD? Not judge me

[Grey Kitty]

I was talking about this sort of thing here:

I don't know whether without outside professional help whether he/we will be able to see our dysfucntional relationship behaviour-he has mentioned feeling "evil" because he cannot enjoy anything "good" - I can work round that he has these distorted thoughts -but it will be impossible to have a relationship unless he gets help to get these thoughts in balance

If he sees relationships as power struggles and does not do the hard work to learn to be able to tolerate an equal loving relationship then it wont work with us as I am not interested in an unequal / unbalanced / one up one down relationship -I genuinely believe he has it in him to be able to do this -it just feels very precarious on how / when he will start to see the light -or even if -I know I cannot force it -this is my dilemma - I cannot wait forever for this

He seems to have developed a sense of entitlement and he is a very angry man presently -this anger is getting misdirected out everywhere -which makes it volatile especially with his drinking -he gets into fights with strangers -this is hard to work around

If he has these issues, and if these issues all came up in the past when you were together... .I would expect them to continue.

As in, he will continue thinking this way, trying to behave this way, trying to act this way.

It is up to you to enforce boundaries, not pick up the bait, and not engage on that level, even when he does everything he can to pull the relationship dynamics right back where they were.

Plan to make the relationship work better despite this with good boundaries, validation. Expect to do ~90% of the EFFECTIVE effort in that direction. (He may be working just as hard as you are, but he's mentally ill, so that is what "pulling his weight" is going to look like)

Are you ready for that to be the picture for the first six months or year you are back together?

[cherryblossom]

ok thanks

I find this site confusing at times -I'm sorry if i seem narky -I just feel that i sometimes come away more confused than when I felt before I asked for help

sometimes I feel the ethos of this site is to break down barriers and support people to have relationship with someone diagnosis of BPD and other times it feels like the ethos is to run for the hills if you know someone has this diagnosis and don't look back

I work in mental health I dislike the term "mental illness" and diagnosis in general i feel are a construct made by psychiatrists to pathologise and impose some sort of order on compexity of range of human experience -yes his behaviours match a diagnosis of BPD -but attachment disorder or complex trauma reaction would probably be better description -if people are empowered and take recovery on board -then there is hope for a new script / narrative/story ---he does not have a brain disease rather a difficulty managing emotion

I know he has to be on board for his recovery to work and it does not look promising atm

are you suggesting I put my energy into letting go? shall I let go about the money and just let go about the relationship in general seeing as he is not coming to me with a desire to interact in a better way?-i.e what he is doing now with the money is just more of the same?

What do you think his withholding of my money is about?-Is it the potential beginnings of him trying to re engage in a very dysfunctional way? Could this be a response to my unclear messaging? How do I let go when he is trying to re engage me into something this way?

I mentioned before that ok- maybe a relationship might not work -but I am still interested in making our future interactions more healthy  -are you saying this might have to come from me and me alone especially if he is not on board -we will cross paths I suspect in future in regards to band stuff potentially

In terms of hypothetically if we did reconnect -surely if he was on board with recovery and developed some insight he would be putting a ton of effort into not behaving in his past ways -surely the most upsetting behaviour would reduce if he was properly on board? Don't we have to have some hope they can learn some restraint and discipline if they really really want to -why are there so many stories of people recovering from BPD?

I have an attachment disorder -I'm high functioning -I act in bizarre ways at times and have some patterns that play out repeatedly-I'm pretty damaged- but I am able to observe and reflect and discuss and move forward -he was on board with this way of living and being at one point -is this dysregulation he is now- not an example of the getting worse before getting better phase? breaking down before waking up?

yes BPD is repeated pattern of behaviour surely until it is highlighted as such and worked on if someone is on board?

[livednlearned]

Hi cherryblossom,

Nice to hear from you again 

When you mention wanting to make your future interactions more healthy, can you say more about what that means to you?

I have another question  I'm not familiar with attachment disorders, and wonder if it might help us understand better if you can describe how this affects your relationship dynamic with your ex? I've heard of attachment styles (secure vs. insecure) though not in terms of a disorder. Is it mainly a matter of degree?

[cherryblossom]

I think I was just making the point that if a psychiatrist sat and labelled me on my past behavior / bouts of anxiety etc... .suicidal ideation they would probably say I was disordered

I think everyone is on a spectrum of some sort

I was confused as I was asked what my ideal dream of what getting back together would be -and I relayed that info- then seemingly got attacked for sharing it as not realistic? -yes I know it's not realistic -but I was asked what my ideal dream scenario would be? Maybe Ive totally missed the point with the lesson here?

I guess I want him to not behave in this way i.e witholding my money and ignoring invitations to speak- to get my attention -but I know that he is unaware what he is doing on some level -so is there anything i can do to or is what I'm doing i.e not responding with anger regularly inviting to share -the right way to go about things?

or is the way he is acting a loosing game and I need to focus on letting go?

Do I have a big issue here of hoping there is some sort of card I can play which will spark change/open dialogue? Am I taking on too much responsibility here?

yes he has BPD yes -but the recovery from the "disorder" is partly interpersonal effectiveness and if I can at least do less harm or stop things getting worse then I will do it

I just do feel responsible in that the text I sent him was not clear and that I might have to be the bigger person to rectify that (emotional caretaker which is a role that is bandied about this site a lot for those who have chosen to improve)

or is what my friend said right -he could seek clarification at any time if he so chooses?

[cherryblossom]

I guess healthy as for me as although Ive come a long way from the real despair-but I am obsessing about this and not letting go and feeling in love with him like nothing bad has ever happened-it is not normal

[Grey Kitty]

I apologize for coming off as confrontational (and apparently confusing).

I asked for your ideal. Thank you for describing it.

I believe that you are going to have to go through more of the same (difficult) things you had with him in the past, where you work on handling things better yourself, and he doesn't seem to be improving, possibly for months.

Whether that effort is worth it for you to give it another shot is your choice.

I guess healthy as for me as although Ive come a long way from the real despair-but I am obsessing about this and not letting go and feeling in love with him like nothing bad has ever happened-it is not normal

 I think being confused and conflicted at a time like this is pretty normal.

[an0ught]

Hi cherryblossom

I'm actually on a 10 day family interventions course with work and it is helping me view things from a systemic perspective

Good to hear  

Going back to your very first posts similar issues seem to come up again like payments between you two.

You've been together for a couple years, neither really long nor short. Years filled with drama. Drama that tends to bind on together and makes it hard to let go. And whether you want to continue or break up - letting go you'll have to do to an extent. A very close relationship with a pwBPD won't work - boundaries are vital.

that I might have to be the bigger person to rectify that (emotional caretaker which is a role that is bandied about this site a lot for those who have chosen to improve)

You have to be first and foremost yourself! You can only take care of others when you are grounded. A big part of caring for people that are at times temporarily out of control is also to know how to balancing the caring. Self care is critical!

It is easy to loose yourself in such relationships. In the end however it also matters staying a distinct person for yourself and thus being an attractive partner.

I have an attachment disorder -I'm high functioning -I act in bizarre ways at times and have some patterns that play out repeatedly-I'm pretty damaged- but I am able to observe and reflect and discuss and move forward -he was on board with this way of living and being at one point -is this dysregulation he is now- not an example of the getting worse before getting better phase? breaking down before waking up?

The basics to make a relationship with a pwBPD work is to balance connection and distance. Validation and boundaries.

Right now you are apart and you are thinking of reconnecting alone. Can you balance that in your mind with boundaries? Rules for yourself about things you won't do at least initially?

What have you done recently for yourself?

Do I reach out one last time?

This is really up to you. But the better you stand on the ground, the better you feel about yourself and the less you mentally depend on the outcome the better you will do. Whether you reach out or not. Whether connect happens or not or some time later.

[cherryblossom]

Hey anN0ught

You have given me some interesting food for thought and the guidance I have been seeking,  thank you very much.

yes the payment scenario -really do not understand this -I really do not know what he is getting out of it at all -Why go  out his way to inform me money had been taken and he will pay right back to this withdrawal? I don't understand why he would want to make me very sad / angry -how does that make him feel better? Maybe he wants me to think of him in a negative light to push me away? Or he wants to provoke me to say nasty things to him? to be fair £350 (deposit and virgin money) is quite a whack of money that I could do with-who wouldn't want that?- but I'm lucky enough to be in a position to let that amount slide - he will know that withholding that is totally taking the piss and is incredibly disrespectful to a woman he supposedly "respects" and "loves" -but then a lot of his behaviour ended up being disrespectful -it doesn't seem to fit with his supposed values of respecting women -but then again he doesn't even respect himself right now.

What am I doing for myself?... .Making great headway in therapy yesterday, seeing friends, family regularly, going swimming and spa regularly, going on yoga workshops, going to yoga weekly, taking on a student in April at work, going to gigs, theatre, cinema , planning and booking holidays, going to visit friends in other parts of country, re- joining band end of month, creating new music, crocheting, up cycling furniture, making natural skin care products, saving for deposit for mortgage... .I'm not a pathetic dependant person -this relationship really meant a lot to me and I genuinely did not think I would be with anyone else for the rest of my life-I was seriously ready for a truly loving, vulnerable relationship -and he shat all over my heart -I am doing all this stuff for myself as I always did even when with him -but in a low state -have been feeling he and he alone holds the key to my happiness-I know logically that that type of love is not healthy -but my heart cannot understand -we seriously connected on every level -it is a huge loss. But am today feeling like I'm starting to let go a bit more.

I feel like I  like to mirror back the good and see the light in everyone -I've now learnt that I need to be careful with this approach in my personal life as it can stop me from being boundaried and so with my exBPD he obviously ran roughshod all over me -disrupting my sense of self which was actually pretty strong when we got together-also I can tend toward being a bit of a people pleaser -and this obviously doesn't work with BPD as they are so changeable so you end up in lose- lose situations anyway. 

I've been reflecting on a moment at beginning of our relationship -where I was being a bit cheeky with nonchalant banter -I said "I could replace you easily -I don't need to be with a man anyway!" he got really offended by this and said very seriously to me " you would be very difficult to replace " -this was a turning point for me because at this point I allowed myself to believe this was a serious relationship and that I meant a lot to him - I feel that what I said was actually ok in the context of a developing relationship as it is ok to be ambivalent at beginning - you work towards more and more commitment -this comment I made probably really affected him -I had no idea at that point he had BPD -it is very hard to swallow what he has done to me now because he has become ambivalent at the end -what a head ****! He consistently made me feel I was so special for over a year and a half roughly and then last 4 months behaved ambivalently-then discarded when I was fully "hooked".

It has been confusing me up to very recently how someone could throw away such deep love that really does not come round that often -how can someone discard it with no appreciation of how difficult that type of connection is to come by -I confess I've been clinging to the hope he will re-contact because of the sheer depth of the love

Who knows if he will want to reconnect healthily? -sods law is that he will and I'll be totally not bothered -I definitely would not fall straight back into the relationship with no proved dedication to recovery and understanding of the nature of his difficulties by him -he has developed an unfortunate pattern of relating which will need professional assistance to unpick and resolve

Something seems to have changed inside me today -I'm not feeling so desperate -I am feeling more grounded and self focused /self loving/self accepting -I would need to feel sure I had learnt all the skills I could to be in a relationship with him

It is interesting that the solution to a successful relationship with someone with BPD is a second set of dialectics  validation... .boundaries and connection... .distance -which seem important in a relationship with anyone -therefore highlighting my part to play in co creating a successful relationship

-something for me to reflect on thank you