Talking

[kc sunshine]

Since last weekend, my BPDex has been in touch, wanting to talk about our relationship again. Here's what has happened.

2/14 Called me to talk about the relationship (she had been dating a couple and my hunch is that they broke up over this weekend). I texted her asking "is everything okay" but kind of deflected the actual talk.

2/15 She wanted me to come over, in a flirty way. I couldn't but told her I would have if I could have.

2/18 She came over for dinner and we had a great time. It was with my mom and her daughter and another friend and we were all laughing together. She pressed her foot against mine under the table and we hugged a couple of times in the kitchen. She texted me afterwards saying that my house "still feels like home" to her.

2/20 I went over to her house to help her out with something and she initiated kissing me. It didn't get too far though, and we ended up just resting in each other's arms. She said "it would be so easy to fall into intimacy with you" in the beginning of the interaction, but by the end of it said "I'm so glad we can be friends." It felt like a pull/push but not too bad of one. I went running to deal with the separation anxiety when I left (which was pretty acute). She texted later to say that she was home but that she was ambivalent if I should come over. I went and we snuggled on the couch to watch TV which was nice but she also kept getting texts and calls from the couple. I heard the story of the breakup and they are still involved but just not in a relationship (they they are intimate with one another and still very close as friends). Then we talked about our relationship-- she said she was thinking about it a lot and talking to her friends about it... .how easy it would be to get back with me. What they seem to have come to, though, is that the situation is still similar (I might move at the end of the summer) and that who knows if I am able to change in the ways she would like me to (better communicator, make more decisions towards her). I listened to her and told her from my end that the love is still very much intact. She seemed open to and appreciative of things that I have realized and learned but that she still doesn't trust me, trust that I can change. And that without the trust, the love is difficult. With that we more or less ended it.

In terms of saving the relationship, my sense is that she is still pretty involved with the couple and that it would be hard for either of us to really make a big turn towards the other while that is still on. I'll just leave it be for now, unless you guys can suggest anything else!

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[kc sunshine]

One more thing to add: she is very jealous about the possibility of me dating. I guess I shouldn't while the possibility of us seems to be on the table again?

Since last weekend, my BPDex has been in touch, wanting to talk about our relationship again. Here's what has happened.

2/14 Called me to talk about the relationship (she had been dating a couple and my hunch is that they broke up over this weekend). I texted her asking "is everything okay" but kind of deflected the actual talk.

2/15 She wanted me to come over, in a flirty way. I couldn't but told her I would have if I could have.

2/18 She came over for dinner and we had a great time. It was with my mom and her daughter and another friend and we were all laughing together. She pressed her foot against mine under the table and we hugged a couple of times in the kitchen. She texted me afterwards saying that my house "still feels like home" to her.

2/20 I went over to her house to help her out with something and she initiated kissing me. It didn't get too far though, and we ended up just resting in each other's arms. She said "it would be so easy to fall into intimacy with you" in the beginning of the interaction, but by the end of it said "I'm so glad we can be friends." It felt like a pull/push but not too bad of one. I went running to deal with the separation anxiety when I left (which was pretty acute). She texted later to say that she was home but that she was ambivalent if I should come over. I went and we snuggled on the couch to watch TV which was nice but she also kept getting texts and calls from the couple. I heard the story of the breakup and they are still involved but just not in a relationship (they they are intimate with one another and still very close as friends). Then we talked about our relationship-- she said she was thinking about it a lot and talking to her friends about it... .how easy it would be to get back with me. What they seem to have come to, though, is that the situation is still similar (I might move at the end of the summer) and that who knows if I am able to change in the ways she would like me to (better communicator, make more decisions towards her). I listened to her and told her from my end that the love is still very much intact. She seemed open to and appreciative of things that I have realized and learned but that she still doesn't trust me, trust that I can change. And that without the trust, the love is difficult. With that we more or less ended it.

In terms of saving the relationship, my sense is that she is still pretty involved with the couple and that it would be hard for either of us to really make a big turn towards the other while that is still on. I'll just leave it be for now, unless you guys can suggest anything else!

[kc sunshine]

As the day goes on, I am finding myself more anxious about the whole exchange. Ugh. I will try to exercise and get things done to work through the anxiety. And maybe also embrace the feelings of sadness and anger that the exchange brought up.  :'(

sadness= that we still can't be together (I think I was beginning to hope that we could)

anger= that we're in this pull push thing so that I can't really act normally (call etc), like her other people/lovers can. Or maybe I can and I'm doing a push thing too and getting into a dysfunctional dance with her?

Since last weekend, my BPDex has been in touch, wanting to talk about our relationship again. Here's what has happened.

2/14 Called me to talk about the relationship (she had been dating a couple and my hunch is that they broke up over this weekend). I texted her asking "is everything okay" but kind of deflected the actual talk.

2/15 She wanted me to come over, in a flirty way. I couldn't but told her I would have if I could have.

2/18 She came over for dinner and we had a great time. It was with my mom and her daughter and another friend and we were all laughing together. She pressed her foot against mine under the table and we hugged a couple of times in the kitchen. She texted me afterwards saying that my house "still feels like home" to her.

2/20 I went over to her house to help her out with something and she initiated kissing me. It didn't get too far though, and we ended up just resting in each other's arms. She said "it would be so easy to fall into intimacy with you" in the beginning of the interaction, but by the end of it said "I'm so glad we can be friends." It felt like a pull/push but not too bad of one. I went running to deal with the separation anxiety when I left (which was pretty acute). She texted later to say that she was home but that she was ambivalent if I should come over. I went and we snuggled on the couch to watch TV which was nice but she also kept getting texts and calls from the couple. I heard the story of the breakup and they are still involved but just not in a relationship (they they are intimate with one another and still very close as friends). Then we talked about our relationship-- she said she was thinking about it a lot and talking to her friends about it... .how easy it would be to get back with me. What they seem to have come to, though, is that the situation is still similar (I might move at the end of the summer) and that who knows if I am able to change in the ways she would like me to (better communicator, make more decisions towards her). I listened to her and told her from my end that the love is still very much intact. She seemed open to and appreciative of things that I have realized and learned but that she still doesn't trust me, trust that I can change. And that without the trust, the love is difficult. With that we more or less ended it.

In terms of saving the relationship, my sense is that she is still pretty involved with the couple and that it would be hard for either of us to really make a big turn towards the other while that is still on. I'll just leave it be for now, unless you guys can suggest anything else!

[Grey Kitty]

I've not seen your story before, so I don't know any particulars, but I do have one thought on the push/pull dynamics.

I'm guessing that when you were in your relationship prior to breaking up, it had a lot of push-pull games, and that they were really hard on you.

I'd suggest that you accept that this is her nature, and what she will do in any intimate relationship, or at least any intimate relationship with YOU. (Ones she has with others matter considerably less to you, anyhow) She isn't going to change.

So... .if you reconnect with her romantically, you can expect her behavior to be similar. Expect her to continue those games.

... .and if you reconnect with her as a "friend", given your history, expect it there too. The push-pull will continue just as it did in your romantic relationship. She is very likely to pull you into that level of intimacy, at least emotionally again... .and push later.


What can you change? You can change yourself. You can choose not to reactively play the game with her. Try not to take it personally, because it really isn't about you, it is about her and her mental health and emotional issues.

Yes, it is hard. And yes, it is worth doing. For you, to become a better stronger version of yourself. Will the relationship recover and thrive? Dunno.

What I do know is that from where I'm standing today, I'm very grateful for everything I learned both while trying to save my marriage, coping as it was ending, and after it (effectively) ended. They were hard lessons. Hard learned too. Wouldn't give them up for anything in the world. And as I approach new relationships (finally), they will continue serving me very very well.

[patientandclear]

You can choose not to reactively play the game with her. Try not to take it personally, because it really isn't about you, it is about her and her mental health and emotional issues.

Yes, it is hard. And yes, it is worth doing. For you, to become a better stronger version of yourself. Will the relationship recover and thrive? Dunno.

I'm not sure what it means to not "play the game" while being in an intimate (emotionally or otherwise) r/ship with someone.  When that person accesses your intimate places, places that (for me and for many of us) require trust and vulnerability, to "not react" when they push you away and cross certain lines of loyalty and commitment -- not sure this is at all healthy.

If in fact you are someone for whom the particular "push" behaviors don't cross any lines or boundaries, that's one thing -- that could work fine.  Some of my ex's push behaviors are things I can readily deal with -- they were not violations of trust or commitment.

But if the BPD person's push behaviors DO violate lines or boundaries that matter to you -- then it's not clear how to stay in the r/ship and not "play the game" without violating your own duty of loyalty to yourself.

[kc sunshine]

I like very much the concept of "loyalty to oneself." For me, one that comes close to violating it is when she texts or talks with her other people when she is with me. I tested myself with it yesterday to see how it felt. It wasn't devastating like before but still didn't feel great. My first instinct was to leave when that started happening. I stayed to see it through, but in hindsight maybe leaving would have been better.

You can choose not to reactively play the game with her. Try not to take it personally, because it really isn't about you, it is about her and her mental health and emotional issues.

Yes, it is hard. And yes, it is worth doing. For you, to become a better stronger version of yourself. Will the relationship recover and thrive? Dunno.

I'm not sure what it means to not "play the game" while being in an intimate (emotionally or otherwise) r/ship with someone.  When that person accesses your intimate places, places that (for me and for many of us) require trust and vulnerability, to "not react" when they push you away and cross certain lines of loyalty and commitment -- not sure this is at all healthy.

If in fact you are someone for whom the particular "push" behaviors don't cross any lines or boundaries, that's one thing -- that could work fine.  Some of my ex's push behaviors are things I can readily deal with -- they were not violations of trust or commitment.

But if the BPD person's push behaviors DO violate lines or boundaries that matter to you -- then it's not clear how to stay in the r/ship and not "play the game" without violating your own duty of loyalty to yourself.

[Stalwart]

KC:

I'm not much on interfering in a negative way but it seems to me that there really are life definitions that you have to look at applying to your own self-esteem.

There is everything in this for her, what's in it for you if it's not a situation you're comfortable with or feel as though your being held hostage to against your real will and want.

Is it a situation that you believe you should accept? Is it a condition that is going to build your own strengths and self-esteem to ensure your real happiness in it?

I would think those might be the questions you really ask yourself and also consider why she might think that you would be willing to if you've expressed an opinion that isn't supportive.

I really hope you work this out. I can tell you have a love for her and an attention for her. Does she share in that same love, attention and commitment of trust for you that she asks of you?

[Grey Kitty]

When I say not play the game, I meant things like noticing that she is pushing you away, and not reacting blindly to it by trying to chase her down and make her love you again or pull you close again. (Which invites her to feel safe continuing to push you away)

I like very much the concept of "loyalty to oneself." For me, one that comes close to violating it is when she texts or talks with her other people when she is with me. I tested myself with it yesterday to see how it felt. It wasn't devastating like before but still didn't feel great. My first instinct was to leave when that started happening. I stayed to see it through, but in hindsight maybe leaving would have been better.

Yes, loyalty to yourself sounds excellent.

If somebody shows that they do not want to be present with you when you are together, by texting/talking with other people, moving on and finding something else you want to do with your day instead of waiting and hoping she will come back sounds great.

It is especially good if you can do it out of a genuine desire in the moment, without having to think about motivations and mind games, although that probably won't come until you've had a bit of practice.

It is natural to want to be with her because you enjoy her company.

It is natural to want to be somewhere else, or at least focused elsewhere when she is physically present with you, but giving her company to others instead of you.

[kc sunshine]

What I did in the moment was go to another room and also get on the phone (made a phone call) which is I suppose an example of "focusing elsewhere when she is not physically present."

These power dynamics didn't really mark our relationship, but they are so pronounced in our breakup! I wonder how we could ever get back to an equilibrium after this.

If somebody shows that they do not want to be present with you when you are together, by texting/talking with other people, moving on and finding something else you want to do with your day instead of waiting and hoping she will come back sounds great.

It is especially good if you can do it out of a genuine desire in the moment, without having to think about motivations and mind games, although that probably won't come until you've had a bit of practice.

It is natural to want to be with her because you enjoy her company.

It is natural to want to be somewhere else, or at least focused elsewhere when she is physically present with you, but giving her company to others instead of you.