Caretaking or Manipulation?

[joeramabeme]

Discussion question.

I was having this conversation with a friend; is caretaking manipulation?  And if so, what is the difference between what the BPD does to a caretaker and what a caretaker is trying to do to a BP?

Here were some of the conversation highlights.  My friend, kept coming at the question with the angle that caretaking is caring for a person; for example helping an alcoholic spouse – a natural and expected action.  To which I defined the difference as caretaking crosses your own personal healthy boundaries in order to care for someone else; in other words, taking care of someone else in a way that is detrimental to your own well-being.

The BP is manipulating to achieve a sense of control over their own feelings and a sense of ok’ness with you to safely stay in the relationship.  The caretaking non is trying to prove that they can assuage the fears of the BP and control the controlling behaviors in order to achieve the love that is longed for in the same relationship.  So what difference exists between the two?  Each of the other wrestling to get a desired outcome.

Perhaps this is the reason why some of us Non’s claim to feel like BPs?  We who are caretakers act in the same way and so have the same mindset?

[Turkish]

Doesn't ACOA exist because loved ones can unhealthily enable the alcoholic family member, thereby contributing to the disease? Unhealthy triangulation?

[eeks]

Hi joeramabeme,

I believe caretaking can be manipulation, but the manipulation is unintentional.  I am reading Pete Walker's complex PTSD book and he explains that people who use the "fawn" defense (codependency) learned that they could gain safety from an abusive parent by making themselves helpful.  It begins when the child is quite young and becomes an automatic response.

Children in dysfunctional families learn that they are not lovable just the way they are (they are not cognitively mature enough to understand that it's not their fault), and they develop "survival strategies" like codependence to try to procure love, safety, acceptance.

In fact, I would say that there are not very many people, even those without a mental health diagnosis, who are truly free of conditional-love strategies.  (I haven't met them, anyways.)  It is only a matter of degree.

I agree that it's not that different from what the pwBPD is doing, for the reasons you stated.  Everyone is trying to feel safe, survive and be loved.  Of course, as adults we don't need these strategies anymore to survive, in fact they tend to be detrimental to our lives, but as we discussed in another thread, because trauma is a physiological phenomenon, it requires more than just conscious effort to change habits, the emotional, relational and somatic aspects need to be addressed as well. 

eeks

[Visitor]

Something I often hear on the board is this:

“after all I did for him/her this is how he/she treats me”

We hear of stories where throughout the relationship the partner was given money, rides, drugs, time and all sorts. They are left bitter and complaining when their favours aren’t reciprocated but I question if most of the time there is an ulterior motive behind all this “care giving” which can often be construed as a subtle form of bribery.

“If you stay with me I will do things for you”

You raise a good point.

[joeramabeme]

Hi joeramabeme,

I believe caretaking can be manipulation, but the manipulation is unintentional.  I am reading Pete Walker's complex PTSD book and he explains that people who use the "fawn" defense (codependency) learned that they could gain safety from an abusive parent by making themselves helpful.  It begins when the child is quite young and becomes an automatic response.

Children in dysfunctional families learn that they are not lovable just the way they are (they are not cognitively mature enough to understand that it's not their fault), and they develop "survival strategies" like codependence to try to procure love, safety, acceptance.

In fact, I would say that there are not very many people, even those without a mental health diagnosis, who are truly free of conditional-love strategies.  (I haven't met them, anyways.)  It is only a matter of degree.

I agree that it's not that different from what the pwBPD is doing, for the reasons you stated.  Everyone is trying to feel safe, survive and be loved.  Of course, as adults we don't need these strategies anymore to survive, in fact they tend to be detrimental to our lives, but as we discussed in another thread, because trauma is a physiological phenomenon, it requires more than just conscious effort to change habits, the emotional, relational and somatic aspects need to be addressed as well. 

eeks

Eeks, powerful post - loaded with such a wealth of wisdom (that I am physiologically able to integrate  )

conditional-love strategies - Wow!  Very to the point in a non-judgemental way and speaks volumes.

I have reflected that healing from these past learned behaviors is actually two major movements; unlearning and relearning.  Perhaps stated better by saying, healing is not the absence of a negative condition but the presence of a better one.  Each part takes a herculean effort of trust & faith in others words and determined self-effort to keep trying - not easy to do when one only knows of one strategy that had a payoff at some point in the past.

Your post also spurred some memories of different times when I have gotten to know different groups of people and been almost shocked to hear them say; we like Joe.  Huh?  But I wasn't doing anything special or trying to get you to like me - I was just being me.  Volumes!  I never did have a filing cabinet space for that experience but I think I have found one.

Really good post, thank you.

[unicorn2014]

That is a good question. I had a major slip with my BPD traits partner this weekend. He was having an existential crisis and despite my intellectual awareness I should stay out of it I allowed him to suck me into it. May I ask if you are still in a r/s with a pwBPD ?

[unicorn2014]

Doesn't ACOA exist because loved ones can unhealthily enable the alcoholic family member, thereby contributing to the disease? Unhealthy triangulation?

ACA exists because the effects of growing up in a dysfunctional family are long lasting . There is a laundry list of survival traits that the adult child has to work really hard to overcome.

[Grey Kitty]

The question of how you define "caretaker" matters.

In the context of co-dependency, caretaker often is used to mean exactly that the behavior is unhealthy and manipulative. That you are doing things for this other person, hoping to be loved, etc. in return.

I think nearly everybody who makes it to these forums either does this kind of behavior, or used to, in various degrees. In general, people who are healthy enough NOT to do this kind of thing don't get involved with a pwBPD (or alcoholic, or other addict, etc.)

Sometimes the words caregiving and caretaking are used to distinguish between the two.

Rather than splitting hairs on definitions, I'd suggest that the better approach is to examine your own behavior carefully. When you are doing something for another person, are you doing it out of hope for getting something in return in a manipulative way? Or are you giving because you feel generous and and are giving your (time, energy, money, whatever) freely?

It is also possible to give something out of a sense of obligation, fear, or guilt. That isn't caretaking, but is equally unhealthy, and equally codependent, just in a different direction.