Journaling is back

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Not sure if we were supposed to do this tonight, FF wife retreated into bedroom with kids and is asleep.

She has felt "constrained" in the past by writing things down.

It should be an interesting week.

FF and ff wife please spend together 20 minutes each night before going to bed to ensure that each is on the same page about expectations and plans regarding the following day. FF should record all that happens and FF wife should initial to show that it has been accurately written.

a.      FF lead in prayer first—praying that God would help each manifest Eph 4:29-32

b.     FF ask ff wife what are her plans for the next day.—ask any clarifying questions.

c.      FF ask ff wife what would be helpful for you to do in the home for the next day

d.     FF wife ask FF what are his goals for the next day (be sure you understand them completely)

e.      FF wife ask FF if there are ways you can help ff with his plans for the next day.

f.      Each ask for any help desired or any clarifications.

g.     If there is a disagreement, ff should defer to ff wife unless what ff wife is asking for is sinful.

[formflier]

Not sure if we were supposed to do this tonight, FF wife retreated into bedroom with kids and is asleep.

She has felt "constrained" in the past by writing things down.

It should be an interesting week.

FF and ff wife please spend together 20 minutes each night before going to bed to ensure that each is on the same page about expectations and plans regarding the following day. FF should record all that happens and FF wife should initial to show that it has been accurately written.

a.      FF lead in prayer first—praying that God would help each manifest Eph 4:29-32

b.     FF ask ff wife what are her plans for the next day.—ask any clarifying questions.

c.      FF ask ff wife what would be helpful for you to do in the home for the next day

d.     FF wife ask FF what are his goals for the next day (be sure you understand them completely)

e.      FF wife ask FF if there are ways you can help ff with his plans for the next day.

f.      Each ask for any help desired or any clarifications.

g.     If there is a disagreement, ff should defer to ff wife unless what ff wife is asking for is sinful.

[Ceruleanblue]

I'd journal, but I'm afraid it would just be more of me venting. I try to limit it to here. In real life, I try to look for the good, and keep a positive attitude, even though it's not always easy.

What is the purpose of the journal? To work through things? Just to help you remember things for next session? I know BPDh's DBT therapist has him doing a daily journal, but I haven't asked him the purpose of it.

[Fian]

Why are you told to defer to your wife?  I thought it would be the other way around?  Also, what are the boundaries on that other than sin?  It sounds like she was just made the boss.

[formflier]

Why are you told to defer to your wife?  I thought it would be the other way around?  Also, what are the boundaries on that other than sin?  It sounds like she was just made the boss.

My interpretation is that this is an effort to get to the bottom of the communication breakdown and fix it with "extreme clarity".  So there is not just a decision, but a very deliberate step by step process of figuring out the next day with me taking leadership and issuing a decision.

You are correct that if we are not able to compromise that then she is in charge and that is normally "backwards" in a Christian relationship.  If she chooses to follow my lead she has to sign off on it (literally).  If she chooses to go her own way after the deliberate process she also has to sign off on that (literally). 

Good question about limits.  We didn't discuss much about that, probably to see if either one of us will make a power grab or something like that.

To be clear, if my wife demands that I do something stupid, dangerous but is not sinful, likelihood of my doing it is very low.

For instance, if my wife says give me your password, my answer is no.

FF

[Fian]

So you make a decision that your wife should follow.  If she refuses to, you do what she wants instead, and you then discuss in the next MC meeting?

[formflier]

So you make a decision that your wife should follow.  If she refuses to, you do what she wants instead, and you then discuss in the next MC meeting?

More like, we have a structured way to "force us to compromise".  That no "jumping to conclusions"

We have questions we must ask of each other and then listen.  I note that the questions are about our goals for the next day vice the exact, you will do this or I will do this.

But, if there is a disagreement about the goal, the disagreement is written down and then I should follow my wife's leading.

So, I want to work on a vehicle and she wants me to put up shelves in a closet.  I do the closet work.  If later she wants to b___ about a vehicle not working, she has no ability to blame or shift that to me.  She "bought it".

Much of the issue that I have expressed in counseling is that our process is broken.  My wife' snaps her fingers and issues a proclamation about what must happen.  I normally ignore that and do my own thing.

If she tries to compromise, I usually bend a lot in her direction.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So you will have written records to hold her accountable. Whew! I wonder how she will try to sabotage this. You've got her boxed in by her own decision about choosing this type of counseling. If she doesn't comply with the tasks provided by your counselor, it becomes obvious to all concerned. And then she undermines her self-perceived status in the church. You couldn't have provided a better mousetrap for her if you had tried.

[formflier]

  You couldn't have provided a better mousetrap for her if you had tried.

That is how I am looking at it. 

And the "curious george" part of me is very interested in how she can get out of the mousetrap.

We each sent emails to a previous biblical counselor from several years ago that our current counselor knows professionally and personally.  In other words, there is a level of trust there.

My story is that either he or the other pastor at that church (we counseled with both) had us do journaling for a while but that the journal got tossed by my wife as soon as it conflicted with reality (that she felt her words were being used against her).  My wife says we have never journaled and also says she won't do it because it will be "used against her"


So he didn't directly tell her to do it in counseling but the concept was discussed.  He directly told us via email to do this. 

My guess is that he will see how compliance goes for a week (she missed last night, but can claim confusion) and will be speaking with a guy that has several years of history with us. 

FF

So, we'll see.

[flourdust]

This reminds me of the weekly planning meetings my wife and I tried to have. These came about because my wife would complain that her meltdowns were due to us not having planned the week or weekend. (The implication was that this was my fault, even though there was nothing preventing her from taking the initiative on planning.)

My experience had been that trying to plan with her could be a Catch-22 situation. If I came to a planning meeting with some ideas sketched out, then I was accused of being controlling and not involving her. If I was completely passive, then I was accused of not taking it seriously.

But, under the urging of our marriage counselor, I started scheduling these weekly planning meetings. About 75% of the time, they resulted in her melting down, as she would want to get sidetracked into other issues, or get upset at the complexity of possible choices, or want to talk about how awful I am at communicating instead. Another 10% of the time, we'd have a successful planning meeting, but if anything went wrong at all during the week, I'd be accused of not planning enough. (For example, we went to D10's skating from 11:00 - 11:30, then lunch at 12, but the time between skating and lunch was a good opportunity for a meltdown.)

Eventually, I gave up on the planning meetings, because they just seemed like scheduled times for dysregulation.

It sounds like you're viewing this as a chance for your MC to see how bad the problems are by the inability to follow these journaling instructions. That's plausible. The question is, then, what does that get you? Our MC was certainly able to see that these sort of rational communication strategies were ineffective with us. While that might have been educational for him, it didn't get us any closer to resolving our problems.

[formflier]

 

Flourdust,

Good question.  I suspect we will be about 50/50 on having a good meeting.  Initially it will be better than that.

The issue will come up when she "claims" one thing and I show her notes from meeting.

So "you are being ridiculous, we have never discussed that before"

me "Show her file that she signed showing that she brought up the issue and I accepted her proposal"

That, yep, that is where it will get interesting.

FF

[formflier]

 

I sent her the email below this morning.  CC'd the counselor.  Likely won't get a response.  Will follow up with a verbal chat soon after she gets home (so several hours verbal notice)

FF wife name,

My hope is that we can get little kids heading to bed around 830pm with a goal that they are settled in their own beds (and hopefully asleep) by 9pm

Would like to kick off our homework meeting at 9 (or shortly after).  My vision is that it is a "business type" meeting where we can discuss goals for the following day and the roles each of us can play in accomplishing those goals. 

After the 20 minutes is up I invite you for a quick break and some snuggle time on the couch where we can talk about personal things, feelings, or just hang out before I try to get in bed for sleep.

This email is intended to start a conversation.

If you know of topics/issues you wish to bring up tonight (or any night) I could be better prepared if you send me a quick email/text for me be thinking about a particular issues.

For instance, I would hope we can talk about and decide tonight how we can move forward on the dentist issue.  I would like to call and make appointments for the kids tomorrow.  I found out from a follow up call to the previous dentist that you had called and cancelled our appointments there.

Love,

FF

My wife wanted to go to a dentist she picked out, someone told her they were good.  That dentist was not a network provider.  With all the mouths we have around here, that is a significant amount of risk.  Basically, a network provider will "abide by" the list of charges and payment from insurance.

A non-network provider will "take" the insurance payment and then charge us the rest of the bill. 

My wife called and asked "do you take (our insurance name)" and they said yes.

The real question is, "are you a PPO provider for (our insurance name)", they are not.

I've sent her a couple emails and we have had a couple talks about it.  She spends most of her time focused on why we went to certain dentists in the past and trying to relate that to a conspiracy about me not wanting her to go to the dentist she picked.  She believes that I picked this dentist because my Dad goes there.  (I have no idea where my Dad goes, that is his business).

I went to website, put in address, and picked the closest PPO provider.  End of story.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Sigh. I don't have much hope for this MC helping a lot.

Documentation that will force your wife to confront that she changed her mind and is trying to blame you on it isn't going to make her feel any better about anything. It is going to upset her and make things worse.

It shows little if any sign of understanding the sort of tools we work so hard on 'round here.

If you and your wife were both non's it would probably work great.

FF, are you willing to attempt to steer him farther away from things that have a horrible track record of working in the past?

[formflier]

Sigh. I don't have much hope for this MC helping a lot.


FF, are you willing to attempt to steer him farther away from things that have a horrible track record of working in the past?

Yeah, we'll have to see.

The first journaling/meeting session has happened and went well.

As far as "steering things".  I need to focus my own goals less on the written proof and more on the "time together" to administer things.

We all know that me waving a piece of paper at her to "prove her wrong" isn't going to help things. 

"forced time" together could be good or bad, depending on how I handle it.

If I stick to being "all business" and don't address emotions when they come up (and we know they will), this effort is doomed.

If I focusing on "caring for in a healthy way" my wife and shift to validation as needed, then there may be hope.

Let's back up.  You guys know me, I'm always working strategy. 

I think we keep going to MC weekly to "force" or "show" certain issues and make some structural changes.

20 minutes per night right before bedtime is a huge structural change, HUGE.  Last night D3 was crying for mommy, then cried for me, then she went to sleep.  My wife, to her credit, honored the meeting and let kid go to sleep on her own.  Normally I would be abandoned for couple hours while she cared for kids and usually spent night with them.

I'm going to be meeting with the Psychologist weekly for, a long time,   Yesterday she listened to several of my recordings and she coached me on how to recognize turning points and when to provide validation.

She also identified several places where my wife attempted to "repair" (albeit in a dysfunctional way) and she admonished me (chewed my a$$) that I stayed in the "fight". 

The goal is to recognize a repair attempt and to go with it.

I like this Psychologist.  She is Christian so she also admonished me a couple times where I should have "showed grace".  She also validated that I had reason to be mad, but basically said if I was going to attempt to "stay" that some of the tools I was using were not appropriate. 

After meeting my wife and listening she was like "your wife is not going to admit she was wrong, even if she knows she is".

She is also concerned about the "biblical counseling" but sees some upsides because my wife is willing to put in effort there.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I like this Psychologist.  She is Christian so she also admonished me a couple times where I should have "showed grace".  She also validated that I had reason to be mad, but basically said if I was going to attempt to "stay" that some of the tools I was using were not appropriate. 

After meeting my wife and listening she was like "your wife is not going to admit she was wrong, even if she knows she is".

She is also concerned about the "biblical counseling" but sees some upsides because my wife is willing to put in effort there.

I like your psychologist a lot from what you say here.

I'm inclined to agree about the biblical counseling having upsides too... .and suggest that you (perhaps with assistance from her) would do well to "manage" it a bit... .mostly by not backing your wife too far into a corner with her back up against the wall where she *has* to admit she was wrong.

In most situations, getting somebody to acknowledge that they are doing/did something wrong is step one on stopping it. In your wife's case, it is most likely a step away from the fix!

[Daniell85]

refusal to acknowledge or admit to "wrongdoing" is NPD behavior. While we are assuming BPD for Mrs. FF, it seems to me she is pretty NPD.

That then leads to the possibility are what are the rewards for NPD behavior. NPD feed on energy, both good and bad. My understanding is the best fuel for NPD is to have a partner who they can upset and thwart by alternating between ( in FF case) The Good Wife and The Bad Wife.

Maybe something to consider. Though I am not sure what you can do about it in terms of starving out the NPD stuff.

[formflier]

refusal to acknowledge or admit to "wrongdoing" is NPD behavior. While we are assuming BPD for Mrs. FF, it seems to me she is pretty NPD.

That then leads to the possibility are what are the rewards for NPD behavior. NPD feed on energy, both good and bad. My understanding is the best fuel for NPD is to have a partner who they can upset and thwart by alternating between ( in FF case) The Good Wife and The Bad Wife.

Maybe something to consider. Though I am not sure what you can do about it in terms of starving out the NPD stuff.

That's an interesting observation.  There are so many "combinations" of these things.

Paranoia is undeniably the centerpiece.  The psychologist was likely attempting to show me a good attitude when she was trying to get to a summation of "what kind of situation I am in".

She smiled and chuckled and said "ooh honey, don't we have some work to do here, " when she said "And your wife thinks you attempted to murder her, and the appropriate way to deal with that is to go to biblical counseling"

So, picture a nice "almost grandma" lady (I'm guessing about 60 years old), the kind that you would expect to hand you some milk and cookies, yet she has a PhD.

And, her manner and the way she talks is very "grandmotherly".

FF