I do not understand this strategy

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

BPD mom and DH went to court in November, and the judge reversed custody to BPD mom, made a judicial finding of parental alienation against her, and the judge told us in 6 months if the alienation is not improved, to come back to court.  The judge also ordered that she move back into our county (she moved days before court). 

First, the alienation is worse--DSS15 is refusing to see DH.  CPS has been called again, but it was administratively closed.  BPD mom has not moved, and BPD mom is refusing to sign the order.  Our attorney has been trying to set it for a motion to enter, but her attorney keeps saying he can’t go to court (and the court makes attorneys agree on a date). 

Then we get a notice that it is on the dismissal docket.  Our attorney tries to get a motion to retain, but they fought it.  They want it dismissed?  I don’t get it.

DH sent her his vacation plans (the order requires him to do that by April 1) and she responds:  A draft is not an Agreement. If you want an Agreement, we'll need a Final Order.

Is she trying to wait out the clock, get it dismissed so she can stay in the county she is in?  It is just weird—the old order gives DH custody.  Our attorney says it would be a huge mess for everyone.

I am thinking that the only way we will be getting in front of the judge is to get a TRO based on emotional abuse (alienation)... .the counselor can attest to that as BPD mom has blocked the court ordered counseling as well.

[sanemom]

BPD mom and DH went to court in November, and the judge reversed custody to BPD mom, made a judicial finding of parental alienation against her, and the judge told us in 6 months if the alienation is not improved, to come back to court.  The judge also ordered that she move back into our county (she moved days before court). 

First, the alienation is worse--DSS15 is refusing to see DH.  CPS has been called again, but it was administratively closed.  BPD mom has not moved, and BPD mom is refusing to sign the order.  Our attorney has been trying to set it for a motion to enter, but her attorney keeps saying he can’t go to court (and the court makes attorneys agree on a date). 

Then we get a notice that it is on the dismissal docket.  Our attorney tries to get a motion to retain, but they fought it.  They want it dismissed?  I don’t get it.

DH sent her his vacation plans (the order requires him to do that by April 1) and she responds:  A draft is not an Agreement. If you want an Agreement, we'll need a Final Order.

Is she trying to wait out the clock, get it dismissed so she can stay in the county she is in?  It is just weird—the old order gives DH custody.  Our attorney says it would be a huge mess for everyone.

I am thinking that the only way we will be getting in front of the judge is to get a TRO based on emotional abuse (alienation)... .the counselor can attest to that as BPD mom has blocked the court ordered counseling as well.

[ForeverDad]

She is used to getting her way one way or another, if not though manipulating the kids, then manipulating the court and other professionals.  I suspect court is, to some extent, allowing the usual deference to the lawyers working something out and hoping it all works out somehow.  And wait out the countdown clock to the boys aging out of the system in a few years.

[bravhart1]

I would ask your L if he can file an ex parte to see how the judge would like you to proceed. Lay out just as you have here the difficulties with her obstructing and ask for court interference.

She'll be sunk.

I would also ask judge to mandate that she must clear any new accusations with therapist first before filing with CPS. We have this in our order and she has been stopped by it.

I see your problem as much harder, since the kids are in full alienation mode. What does it matter what order says, they will do what she wants no matter what.

Sounds like she is trying to make the order have as much chaos as possible so it fits her feelings and keeps you guys off balance. Make this distinction to the judge and ask for EXACTLY what you guys want. Dollars to donuts he will rubber stamp it.

[sanemom]

I would ask your L if he can file an ex parte to see how the judge would like you to proceed. Lay out just as you have here the difficulties with her obstructing and ask for court interference.

She'll be sunk.

I would also ask judge to mandate that she must clear any new accusations with therapist first before filing with CPS. We have this in our order and she has been stopped by it.

I see your problem as much harder, since the kids are in full alienation mode. What does it matter what order says, they will do what she wants no matter what.

Sounds like she is trying to make the order have as much chaos as possible so it fits her feelings and keeps you guys off balance. Make this distinction to the judge and ask for EXACTLY what you guys want. Dollars to donuts he will rubber stamp it.

We DID manage to get the motion to retain it on the docket today after jumping through some hoops.

Fortunately, only DSS15 is in full alienation mode.  DSS17 came over this weekend and spent time with us.  I am thinking we need to file a TRO for emotional abuse just to get her in front of a judge before she is living in the other county (she was ordered to move back) for six months and can transfer the case.  The last time DSS15 was in full alienation mode, and the judge ordered them to have a relationship with DH, he was totally relieved. 

[ForeverDad]

A judge would have to agree to release the case to another county.  But I would expect the court would be happy to have her out of their hair.

As for her move, it would be nice to have her elsewhere.  BUT your position should be that she can't take the minor children with her out of your court's jurisdiction or change jurisdiction.  It would take years for a new court to figure her out if it's a complete Do Over and by then the issue would be moot with the boys aged out of the system.

[david]

Sounds like the judge was giving her another chance. That isn't happening so now the judge has enough information to make the right decision. Give the judge overwhelming evidence of everything since November to make sure.

[Nope]

I'd still get an ex parte motion to get in front of the judge about this. However, if she won't sign the final order giving her custody then you need to find out if the six month clock for a jurisdiction change is even in effect since there is no final order and once there is it specifically says she must live in the county.

This isn't so much a strategy as it is a very entitled BP bolstered by a court order that went her way. She is simply doing whatever she wants because if she was wrong she wouldn't have "won". And the longer it takes you to clean up the mess the less time it will even matter. But I do fully believe she is going after a change of jurisdiction because if she can get the case moved it would be just as if all of the prior bad acts never happened.

[NorthernGirl]

I would also ask judge to mandate that she must clear any new accusations with therapist first before filing with CPS. We have this in our order and she has been stopped by it.

bravhart1 (or anyone else who knows) - Can you tell me a bit more about how you can mandate any new accusations with a therapist. Is it the child(ren)'s therapist? A therapist that works with the court? Are there stipulations about how this would work?

We are waiting on a ruling related to guardianship -- which has some similarities to custody but isn't exactly the same. We know that if DH were to ever get sole guardianship, it likely won't stop his uBPDx from filing a complaint. As a parent, uBPD can raise concerns with the Guardianship office if she feels the guardian is putting their son at risk. A complant could mean another hearing, etc. I'm interested to see if this is something that could be added to an order in this situation.

[bravhart1]

BPDm has a history of filing false accusations against us, and teachers. It says in the order that before mom can file any charge of abuse against daughter it must be told to child therapist and moms therapist and those two must agree that there is enough reason to believe that moms accusations are legit.

So far she has not been able to get one past. She tried by taking one to school board but that went no where with our help. SD is NOT being abused by ANYONE and in fact I would think we would have a better chance of showing that SD is abusing us. :'(

[Thunderstruck]

I don't really understand the strategy either.

I think Nope might be in the right ballpark though. BPDmom might be thinking "I'm the better parent, they're abusive, S15 doesn't want to be there, the court won't acknowledge it, and the kids don't want to move back so I'll get the order in my new county". Which means a clean slate to start over and with less restrictions.

Why did the judge order an alienated child to have primary timesharing with the alienator? 

[ForeverDad]

What astounds me is that the alienator's refusal to sign the terms of the agreement (decision?) reached in court months ago has evidently stymied moving the case forward until now.  Talk about the ability of technicalities to sabotage the system... .

Did I ever say what my ex did and how the court ruled?  I had just reached a settlement and the ink on the divorce decree was barely dry.  A couple weeks later my ex traded one parenting day for another.  (Back then I wasn't street-wise enough to know that I had to get my trade time first, or else risk me not getting my part of the trade.)  When I went to get my son, the daycare said he hadn't been there all day.  I called my ex and she said she was states away driving to vacation with family.

I filed Contempt of Court.  Generous person I was, I had written all vacations requiring only 30 days advance notice.  The county's default guideline was to require vacation notices for Spring Break by Feb 15.  While she did verbalize she was going on vacation during Spring Break, (1) she never gave written notice, (2) she never specified any dates and (3) she never went anywhere during his school's Spring Break.  She left on a Friday, the last weekday of his school's Spring Break, the day she had traded to me.  He missed the next week of kindergarten.  They called me when he didn't attend school the next Monday, she hadn't even notified the school.

Although the court chewed her out, telling her she did not comply with our parenting schedule, the court also ruled she "technically" was not in contempt because she had an "inability to comply" with the terms of the new order because it hadn't been in effect long enough (23 days) to give her enough time to comply with a 30 day notice.  Mind you, she was not in compliance with the prior temporary order either, which was in effect when she should have given her written notice, but that's how they sometimes stumble into skating around the rules and finding esoteric loopholes of logic and technicalities.

Just ponder this... .  my ex's choice not to inform me in advance either in writing or with any specific dates was transformed by my court into an "inability to comply".  She didn't even try to comply in good faith!

[Nope]

Why did the judge order an alienated child to have primary timesharing with the alienator? 

From what I remember of other threads it is because they are older and they are so alienated that the judge was afraid they'd do something drastic like "burn the house down" if they didn't get what their mom convinced them they wanted. So the judge did the exact wrong thing thinking it would cause the mom to stop feeling the need to put so much pressure on them. In hindsight what the kids really need is to have no contact with their mom until their heads are screwed back on streight and then only supervised visits until they age out. Which is what I think Sanemom and her DH should ask for next.

[Thunderstruck]

Why did the judge order an alienated child to have primary timesharing with the alienator? 

From what I remember of other threads it is because they are older and they are so alienated that the judge was afraid they'd do something drastic like "burn the house down" if they didn't get what their mom convinced them they wanted. So the judge did the exact wrong thing thinking it would cause the mom to stop feeling the need to put so much pressure on them. In hindsight what the kids really need is to have no contact with their mom until their heads are screwed back on streight and then only supervised visits until they age out. Which is what I think Sanemom and her DH should ask for next.

That's what I thought it might be, but I didn't remember reading threads about it. 

[ForeverDad]

Why did the judge order an alienated child to have primary timesharing with the alienator? 

From what I remember of other threads it is because they are older and they are so alienated that the judge was afraid they'd do something drastic like "burn the house down" if they didn't get what their mom convinced them they wanted. So the judge did the exact wrong thing thinking it would cause the mom to stop feeling the need to put so much pressure on them. In hindsight what the kids really need is to have no contact with their mom until their heads are screwed back on straight and then only supervised visits until they age out. Which is what I think Sanemom and her DH should ask for next.

For me, getting majority time is what worked.  I'm not saying the conflict will drop from Sanemom and her DH if they manage to get sabotaging Mother separated from the gullible children and strict structures put in place — Mother is following the script she used with older SD — but at least it will be (somewhat) contained and give some hope to reintegration.

As for 50/50 parenting, that didn't work for me, my Ex was just too entitled.  I was the Residential Parent for School Purposes but that didn't reduce her controller entitlement.  Back in court, I was even granted full custody* but it refused to change our equal parenting time and she was still just as entitled.  So I had to go back to court yet again and got majority time during the school year.  Finally, co-parenting was at least somewhat manageable.  You may not have that hard of a struggle, but you would do better with at least a slight majority... .and don't forget about being the Residential Parent for School Purposes.  It may not swing the tide, but it should help.  (Why?  If she was RP and decided to move away then you'd probably have to go running after her.)

* Actually, it was the GAL who felt the conflict would stop  if Ex kept equal time and thus be able to have child support.  It failed miserably, Ex was just as entitled afterward despite her losing joint custody.  I had to go back to court for another 17-18 month process to finally get majority time.  Only then did the entitlement and conflict drop.

[david]

I got 50/50 as a temp order about three years ago. It took me about 5 years to get to that point. With a temp order, in my county, there is no child support. It has to be a permanent order. My atty said to wait about 6 months and then I could file for a permanent order and get child support since ex was making more than me. I was content with 50/50 and left it alone. I have majority of time since ex gives me the boys a lot.

A few months ago she threatened to take me to court for child support. My guess is she has financial issues just like when we were married. I did reply, normally I wouldn't in a case like this, telling her that she needed to contact her attorney and not me if she was going to do that. If she filed she would wind up paying me so I figured she would stop after she talked to her attorney. Haven't heard a word about it since.

[sanemom]

Why did the judge order an alienated child to have primary timesharing with the alienator? 

From what I remember of other threads it is because they are older and they are so alienated that the judge was afraid they'd do something drastic like "burn the house down" if they didn't get what their mom convinced them they wanted. So the judge did the exact wrong thing thinking it would cause the mom to stop feeling the need to put so much pressure on them. In hindsight what the kids really need is to have no contact with their mom until their heads are screwed back on streight and then only supervised visits until they age out. Which is what I think Sanemom and her DH should ask for next.

Yup... .this is exactly right, and I found out yesterday that this "6 months trial of shared parenting" is a common thing with the judges in this county in similar cases.  It isn't working at all.  I think we need to ask for supervised, too.  We are looking at filing a TRO in a couple of weeks to force BPD mom into court.

[sanemom]

The other problem, probably helping with the alienation, is that we have not been sending the ordered child support.  Our attorney has been trying to arrange a meeting with the child support office and her attorney to figure out how much we should send (once again, no cooperation), but she owes us $22k according to the website.

So I am sure she is telling the kids that DH is a deadbeat, etc.  DSS18 is working two jobs (helping with the bills?), and we just got a notice from the school for both of them that they have many unexcused absences--probably from DSS18 working too much and being too tired to bring them both to school.  DSS15 is now failing 3 classes--he has never failed a class in his life or even come close.  Clearly, this is not good.

[ForeverDad]

I would expect the judge to be wondering why this is happening only now after the boys grew up mostly with their father for so many years and the prior issues between parents were not nearly as bad as they are now with the children involved.

Would it be proper to postulate that Mother was focused on her older daughter for many years but once daughter aged out of the system then she turned her attention to the boys as the only control/attack/sabotage/alienate methods left to sabotage her ex-husband?

DSS18 is working two jobs (helping with the bills?), and we just got a notice from the school for both of them that they have many unexcused absences--probably from DSS18 working too much and being too tired to bring them both to school.  DSS15 is now failing 3 classes--he has never failed a class in his life or even come close.  Clearly, this is not good.

Oh my, this is REAL ammunition in the court's eyes... .Dad has boys, schooling is fine... .Mother has boys, schooling promptly sinks like the Titanic.

That needs to be a major item to include in any filing.  That alone ought to trigger court attention!

[Nope]

FD is right. The professionals tend to get really up in arms when school is impacted. It is absolutely irrefutable proof that the new situation is not working.

[david]

I copied every homework for three years that our boys did. It would have been only one year but ex kept stalling things through the court system. It was a pile about 7 or 8 inches tall. I had a cover sheet showing that the boys did over 95 % of their homework when with me and 45 % of the homework they did at their moms was either incomplete or flat out incorrect. Our youngest was in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade during this time. It was overwhelming and I got everything I asked for in court including more time during the school year. It was the only time ex never got anything in court. I am used to getting yelled at by the judge when I "win" and ex doesn't. I wasn't yelled at either.

The thing that really got to me was she had two years to change what she was doing and did nothing. All she did was drag things out but never changed how she approached the boys and their school work. I will never understand that.

My schedule for the school year was different than what the courts around here normally do. I had sound reasons for why I wanted things a certain way and it was granted exactly as I proposed.

I believe courts look at school as a very critical part of a child's' development and do whatever it takes to assist that development.

I think you are on very solid ground here from my own experience.

[sanemom]

My only concern is that BPD mom will twist that the reason DSS17 is working two jobs is because DH is not paying his child support... .of course he isn't because she is years behind, but the judge has not heard anything on child support ever. 

DSS15 has not seen DH since 3/3--he is refusing to come over.  It is ridiculous, and I hope the judge isn't worried about telling a teen what to do.

[Nope]

My only concern is that BPD mom will twist that the reason DSS17 is working two jobs is because DH is not paying his child support... .of course he isn't because she is years behind, but the judge has not heard anything on child support ever. 

DSS15 has not seen DH since 3/3--he is refusing to come over.  It is ridiculous, and I hope the judge isn't worried about telling a teen what to do.

And all she would have had to do to trigger some movement to potentially start getting some action on child support is sign the order.

[david]

I think the court will look at education more than the money especially since she owes years of back support. She can say whatever she wants and that may be a good thing because she is not talking about the kids but about her. She is making her child work two jobs because she can't do it on her own. There are child labor laws in this country and she is breaking them by forcing him to work two jobs.