Insights from my therapist

[Tomacini]

Well, today I went to my T and she shared some interesting insights on BPD. She uses to work in a centre where they treated people with PD. She said they would classify them based on percentages like this is a 40% BPD and 60% something else.

She said that it's all about control with BPD. Especially when there was sexual abuse. They will find fault with you so that they can turn the tables. When the tables are turned they are in control and you start working for their love. They are now in the position of abuser and all they want to do is hurt you like they were hurt. And if you don't have boundaries, well you're basically f*cked. Thats also when all the abusive behavior like push pull and lashing out start.

She didnt talk about idealization phase where they think you can take away their pain and the devaluation. It's just all about control and they will do anything to get the upper hand.

Oh yeah, and the single reason they quit being with you is when they found someone else.

But not all BPD are like this hence the %

So how then do you incorparte the whole theory of idealization/devaluation in all this?

[once removed]

But not all BPD are like this hence the %

So how then do you incorparte the whole theory of idealization/devaluation in all this?

the stages of a "BPD relationship" are a sort of profiling, a generalization. we all have a lot in common with our stories, but in reality we have plenty of differences, as no two of us are the same, and no two pwBPD are the same.

as an example: in my nearly three year relationship, there was virtually no push/pull. its possible that thats because i had a foot out the door for most of the relationship. there were no "stages" of idealization or devaluation. there was mostly idealization, there were times of relative calm, and then there were either rages, or insecurities that turned into several hour discussions or fights. i generally responded to rages with either raging back, ignoring, or threatening a breakup, until they were over. i generally responded to the insecurity based discussions or fights with exasperation, or threatening a breakup, until they were over. i think its reasonable to consider raging at me and telling me how terrible i am, to be devaluation, but it wasnt a phase, it started as soon as the idealization did, both were there from beginning to end.

so the dynamics really depend on both parties. im quite certain that my ex + someone else would play out differently. but as you can see, my relationship was every bit as dysfunctional as most.

the question is how it all applies to you and your relationship.

[vortex of confusion]

i think its reasonable to consider raging at me and telling me how terrible i am, to be devaluation, but it wasnt a phase, it started as soon as the idealization did, both were there from beginning to end.

I have been trying to wrap my mind around the devaluation/idealization stuff too. In my situation, I found it confusing because he would idealize me and devalue me at the same time. One minute he would be going on about how great and wonderful I am and how much he loved me, blah, blah, blah and the next minute he would be checked out playing his game. One of the biggest questions/confusions I had during the course of the relationship was, "How can he say such wonderful things about me yet ignore me and treat me like crap? How is it that he can say such great things yet I still feel so devalued?" The reason is that his actions didn't match his words. Choosing to look at porn or chase other women or ignore me were all forms of devaluation in my opinion. Him dismissing me and telling me that my reality wasn't right were forms of devaluation. He devalued me in a whole bunch of passive aggressive and almost imperceptible ways while at the same time overtly idealizing me. It was covert devaluation with overt idealization. They happened simultaneously and created a lot of confusion.

This has been a 17 year marriage with 4 kids. He moved out in March.

[once removed]

i felt similarly, vortex. rages followed by apologies, professions of love, telling me how patient/wonderful i am, etc. in retrospect i kinda made a martyr of myself. but the actions and the words didnt fit, and sooner or later, the "i love you so much for putting up with me" kinda stuff just burned me out.

if you read the article on the evolution of a "borderline relationship", i think we can all relate to it, and i do think many stories more or less follow that pattern (in fact i have had unhealthy relationships that were much closer to that pattern). its a good outline, but it generalizes, deliberately.

from the DSM IV:

(2) a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

vague, right? but who here would say that didnt apply to their relationship, or what they know of their exes past relationships?

from the DSM V:

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities.

b. Intimacy: Intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdrawal.

decidedly less vague.

i think the heart of the matter is how it applied to us; volatility, extreme highs and lows, put on a pedestal, knocked off the pedestal, we have most of this in common, but this is clinical, and how it applies to us, the dynamics, may differ greatly from person to person.

then you must take into account, the ongoing battle in our exes minds that we were never privy to. chances are there was a great deal of idealization and devaluation going on that we never saw, but that acting out behaviors, in retrospect, may give us some insight to.

[Tomacini]

Onve removed: thats a great insight indeed!

No 2 BPD are the same.

My T also told me: the only 2 persons that can handle a BPD are narcissists and autists because they have clear boundaries. A narcissist always puts himself first so thats a clear boundary and an autist is extremely structured, just what a BPD needs.

I asked her if they truly loved us when they said so and she said yes, but only in that moment. You can't draw a line on that love though because it fluctuates so heavily

[HurtinNW]

My ex would, literally, be in public with me telling his friends how amazing, beautiful and wonderful I am, and then thirty minutes later in the car be raging at me how awful, horrible and unloveable I am. These mini-cycles existed within larger cycles of breaking up and being together. Over time the idealization vanished and all that was left was him obviously trying to contain his anger or else losing his crap.

once removed, thank you for the point that there was a lot going on in their minds we didn't know. I am starting to see that now. I think there was a lot going on inside my ex that he wasn't even aware of. Stepping back, I can look at behaviors as insight into that. For instance, I was always really hurt that he would blow up before every birthday, holiday or event involving me and the kids. Or he would flat-out not remember something he had remembered the week before. I think this was probably wherever he was inside himself, his push-pull coming out in ways that he didn't recognize.

[once removed]

I asked her if they truly loved us when they said so and she said yes, but only in that moment. You can't draw a line on that love though because it fluctuates so heavily

i think thats right. from our article on surviving a breakup with someone with borderline personality disorder:

6) Clinging to the words that were said

We often cling to the positive words and promises that were voiced and ignore or minimalize the negative actions. “But she said she would love me forever” Many wonderful and expressive things may have been said during the course of the relationship, but people suffering with BPD traits are dreamers, they can be fickle, and they over-express emotions like young children – often with little thought for long term implications. You must let go of the words. It may break your heart to do so. But the fact is, the actions - all of them - are the truth.

weve probably all done this to some extent, so we can relate. i can recall in high school, telling more than one girl something along the lines of her being the prettiest/most beautiful/most attractive/whatever in the world. i thought it, and i meant it at the time - i was over expressing emotions, like a young child. boundaries play a big role here, as does keeping our egos in check. idealization is a relatively normal part of the honeymoon phase of any relationship. a healthy relationship will out grow it; we settle down, we realize our partners have flaws (not at all unlike our relationship with our parental figures) but it doesnt alternate, wildly, between idealization and devaluation, it grows and evolves.

i know very little about autism, or autism within a "borderline relationship", but there is a strong correlation when it comes to the dynamic of "the narcissist" and "the borderline". you can read more about it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=98299.0

the thing is, many of us dont know the differences between unhealthy narcissism and healthy narcissism. narcissism is a word that gets thrown around (articles on it tend to be the most popular on psychology today). unhealthy narcissism on our side does tend to play a big role in our relationships. that doesnt mean any given one of us are, or are not "narcissists", but it is worth examining.

having said that, there are many stories on the improving board that involve (non) partners greatly improving their relationships, even some success stories

[once removed]

My ex would, literally, be in public with me telling his friends how amazing, beautiful and wonderful I am, and then thirty minutes later in the car be raging at me how awful, horrible and unloveable I am. These mini-cycles existed within larger cycles of breaking up and being together. Over time the idealization vanished and all that was left was him obviously trying to contain his anger or else losing his crap.

once removed, thank you for the point that there was a lot going on in their minds we didn't know. I am starting to see that now. I think there was a lot going on inside my ex that he wasn't even aware of. Stepping back, I can look at behaviors as insight into that. For instance, I was always really hurt that he would blow up before every birthday, holiday or event involving me and the kids. Or he would flat-out not remember something he had remembered the week before. I think this was probably wherever he was inside himself, his push-pull coming out in ways that he didn't recognize.

i dont mean to dominate the thread, but i wanted to add this from the same article on surviving a breakup:

Unknown to you, your BPD partner was also on a complex journey that started long before the relationship began. You were their “knight in shining armor”, you were their hope and the answer to disappointments that they have struggled with most of their life.

Together, this made for an incredibly “loaded” relationship bond between the two of you.

Breaking up with a “BPD” partner is often difficult because we do not have a valid understanding of the disorder or our part in the “loaded” relationship bond. As a result we often misinterpret or partners actions and some of our own.

this is at the crux of what is meant by "depersonalizing" what feels very personal. theres so little we were privy to, and so much that was more about the past than us.

quick example: one night my ex and i were sitting around. i was drinking water or soda or something from a glass. each time id put the glass down, shed be shaken, and start yelling at me about "slamming" the glass. i was both confused and pretty irritated. it was years later that it occurred to me this was about a trigger, probably something from her home environment, and akin to a PTSD flashback. she of course, was not aware of that, and i certainly wasnt either. for a few weeks after that id point it out when someone would put a glass down, that they were doing the same thing, therefore invalidating her and making her feel like a psycho, and acting on my own need to be right.  

its the kinda thing where understanding BPD psychopathology leads to a greater understanding of our relationships and how they played out. it aids in our detachment

so, tomacini, how did idealization and devaluation play out for you?

[GreenEyedMonster]

I really think that, in the idealization phase, the pwBPD believes that they have found someone who will stop their cycle.  The instability in the relationship is always the other person's fault, so the idea is to find someone who won't perpetuate that.  The idealization phase is the part of the relationship before you have found any of the PTSD-like triggers that once removed mentioned.  You are the person who doesn't trigger them, therefore you are safe and provide a loving environment. 

The devaluation is when the triggers start.  You do something, however small, that reminds them of an abusive person from their past.  It might be something as small as clinking a glass.  For me, it was asking to be included in certain activities, like going to see his band perform, or calling him out when he deliberately chose to do what he wanted to do rather than come to activities that were perhaps less interesting but very important to me.  Apparently somewhere in his childhood, he was engulfed and called out for his selfishness.  You can't help but trigger pwBPD.  If they lived in an abusive environment as kids, they are probably very sensitive to new situations that could re-enact their abuse, and they will overgeneralize threats in order to protect themselves.  So if someone was abandoned as a child, and you decide, for example, to go away for a weekend with friends, that will become a trigger.  They need to imagine you not being very valuable to them, because that is how they will console themselves if you decide to leave.  They are mentally preparing themselves for the abandonment and finding a way to survive it so that their anxiety doesn't overcome them.  Devaluing makes them feel more emotionally safe from you abandoning them.

I was left by a partner in a very dramatic fashion in my mid 20s, and I have PTSD-like symptoms from this.  Believe me, I can spot any remotely similar situation a mile away.  I am very conscious of what it is and when I am being triggered, however, and can articulate this to a partner.  As long as the partner responds empathetically, it's fine.  However, if, like my last ex, they respond by shamelessly triggering me more to show that I won't "control" them, things do not end well.

[Ab123]

This thread made me realize something new, I thought that my ex didn't devalue me / paint me black so much as he degraded me. I was making a false distinction. In his rages, and to some extent during the push/pull, he devalued me as a person/human. I didn't do anything wrong, but he was awful and he found some intrinsic failing in me to justify it. (Often it was simply my gender or profession, or that I was "white collar" while he is salt of the earth good "blue collar".). He was sometimes very degrading to me during sex as well. (Which was fine/fun most of the time, actually. He always seemed to feel more guilty than necessary afterward, since we had a a safe word and I never used it. I do wonder if he would have respected it... .)

I guess it hadn't occurred to me before that this could have been "painting me black". I guess I thought it had to be more complicated than that, and based on something I'd done. Lumping me in with all "b_____es" out to get men seemed insufficient.  it makes more sense now. He was totally painting me black. He was just using broad categories and sexual degradation to do so.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I guess it hadn't occurred to me before that this could have been "painting me black". I guess I thought it had to be more complicated than that, and based on something I'd done. Lumping me in with all "b_____es" out to get men seemed insufficient.  it makes more sense now. He was totally painting me black. He was just using broad categories and sexual degradation to do so.

Devaluing and "painting black" aren't the same thing, exactly.  Devaluing is almost like a practice round.  My ex still apparently loved me very much when he began with the devaluation process.  He did it by making snide remarks about how he "deserved" to do fun things without me, or being bitter about losing games to me -- that sort of thing.  It mostly appeared when he was doing something unfair to me that I disapproved of, but he was determined to do it anyway, a sort of "I don't really care all that much what you think, anyway," response.  I wasn't fully painted black until the breakup, when I became a monster in his mind.  Devaluing serves the purpose of making the relationship less important to the pwBPD, so that they can function on a day-to-day basis without high anxiety.  Otherwise, you are their entire world, their entire self, and if they lose you, their world comes crashing down, so devaluation is a maladaptive way to keep the relationship in perspective.

[HurtinNW]

My ex began devaluing me by picking at me, and finding ridiculous things to criticize, such as my housework. He began reacting in scorn and contempt to my opinions. He also was unable to discuss anything that related to him without outrage and defensiveness.

Looking back, I think this was his reaction to some deep internal recognition that loving another person and being in a relationship meant he would have to do work. For a person whose character is very "frozen" that feels like engulfment. 

He painted me black by believing I was crazy, deranged, difficult and all sorts of other aspersions he assigned to my character. He came to believe these things in order to put all the blame on me.

For example, in our last recycle he devalued me by by reacting to my thoughts with eye rolling, sarcasm, exasperation and sulks. He had a variety of techniques to turn attention on himself, including all sorts of ghost pains, headaches, arm twinges, and so forth. He made himself out to be a victim and complained to his friends about me. This was the build up to the final explosion, where he permanently discarded me. During that explosion he told me I am f-work impossible, that I malign him, that I am crazy, no one could love me.

At least that is how I discern the difference between the two.

[Tomacini]

Wow, thats a great insight hurtin: i too tried to talk multiple times about our relationship to which she would respond hostile and said: if youre not satisfied you can always leave.

I never thought that it would provoke a reaction in her that relationships need work and that this work felt like engulfment.

Thanks for the insight!

[iluminati]

This reminds me of a passage in the book The Buddha and the Borderline.  The book is an autobiography by a BPD sufferer who recovered and became a mental health advocate.  In that book, there's a passage where she discusses her abuse in detail, and it describes the dynamics in her head as to what happened.  On one hand, your abuser generally makes themselves to be this ideal person in a child's mind in order to then violate that child's boundaries. 

In terms of relationship dynamics with BPD, what you have is a situation where you have a repetition compulsion, where someone with BPD creates a similar dynamic with someone they are attracted to, which they then flip around to a situation where they can push your particular buttons.  The difference is that children are someone what alike in their particular weak points, while adults have their own unique histories that can be preyed upon. 

There's also the fact that they grew up in invalidating environments where people's psychosocial needs were met by getting over on someone else.  They don't think that things like compromise and negotiation are possible, as much as it possible to learn Chinese as an adult by having a native speaker suddenly start speaking in it.

[iluminati]

Unknown to you, your BPD partner was also on a complex journey that started long before the relationship began. You were their “knight in shining armor”, you were their hope and the answer to disappointments that they have struggled with most of their life.

Together, this made for an incredibly “loaded” relationship bond between the two of you.

Breaking up with a “BPD” partner is often difficult because we do not have a valid understanding of the disorder or our part in the “loaded” relationship bond. As a result we often misinterpret or partners actions and some of our own.

Excellent point.  I know with my BPD ex-wife, that was a big thing early on.  The problem is that no one has that squeaky clean an image, and it turns into a cage over time.  No one can be the savior in a relationship like that.  No one can, if we're being honest with ourselves.  What makes it really scary is that you don't know where the stress points are.  There's a reason that a famous book for loved one of people with this disorder is called Stop Walking On Eggshells.  The only way to not hit a trigger point with people with BPD is to constantly walk on eggshells around them.  I generally didn't care, for my own reasons, which is why it was easier to set down boundaries once I figured out what they were.  Unfortunately, expecting someone to be brave in the face of full on psychosis is asking a bit much.

[WoundedBibi]

There's also the fact that they grew up in invalidating environments where people's psychosocial needs were met by getting over on someone else.  They don't think that things like compromise and negotiation are possible, as much as it possible to learn Chinese as an adult by having a native speaker suddenly start speaking in it.

This caught my eye. I remember I had a conversation with my ex, or tried to anyway, where we discussed if he was going to talk to his manager or not about something. Well, not IF according to me as without communication you cannot expect anything from anybody and you don't have a right to complain. But he resisted as conversations according to him were conflicts. As if a normal conversation or discussion, even where you don't agree is not an option. It explains why he avoided me wanting to 'have an adult conversation' after we ended like the plague. Talking is only possible if you agree with him and if he knows you're 'on his side'. Otherwise it's a conflict, a battle, etc.

Really makes me wonder about his FOO.

[WoundedBibi]

I guess it hadn't occurred to me before that this could have been "painting me black". I guess I thought it had to be more complicated than that, and based on something I'd done. Lumping me in with all "b_____es" out to get men seemed insufficient.  it makes more sense now. He was totally painting me black. He was just using broad categories and sexual degradation to do so.

Devaluing and "painting black" aren't the same thing, exactly.  Devaluing is almost like a practice round.  My ex still apparently loved me very much when he began with the devaluation process.  He did it by making snide remarks about how he "deserved" to do fun things without me, or being bitter about losing games to me -- that sort of thing.  It mostly appeared when he was doing something unfair to me that I disapproved of, but he was determined to do it anyway, a sort of "I don't really care all that much what you think, anyway," response.  I wasn't fully painted black until the breakup, when I became a monster in his mind.  Devaluing serves the purpose of making the relationship less important to the pwBPD, so that they can function on a day-to-day basis without high anxiety.  Otherwise, you are their entire world, their entire self, and if they lose you, their world comes crashing down, so devaluation is a maladaptive way to keep the relationship in perspective.

Maybe my ex summarized it really well without either of us realizing it before the relationship started. We were out with a group. I guess we both realized we liked each other. We sat next to each other at the pub and he snapped into this weird mood, something inbetween defensive, aggressive and depressed and said (I think because I asked what was up but might have been out of the blue) "life is easier when I don't have feelings for someone".

Just having feelings for someone is scary. Relationships involve other people's emotions. Even more scary. Relationships involve work AND this means looking at yourself, your part in something. That as we know is a no go area for a pwBPD.

[Penelope35]

i think thats right. from our article on surviving a breakup with someone with borderline personality disorder:

6) Clinging to the words that were said

We often cling to the positive words and promises that were voiced and ignore or minimalize the negative actions. “But she said she would love me forever” Many wonderful and expressive things may have been said during the course of the relationship, but people suffering with BPD traits are dreamers, they can be fickle, and they over-express emotions like young children – often with little thought for long term implications. You must let go of the words. It may break your heart to do so. But the fact is, the actions - all of them - are the truth.

weve probably all done this to some extent, so we can relate. i can recall in high school, telling more than one girl something along the lines of her being the prettiest/most beautiful/most attractive/whatever in the world. i thought it, and i meant it at the time - i was over expressing emotions, like a young child. boundaries play a big role here, as does keeping our egos in check. idealization is a relatively normal part of the honeymoon phase of any relationship. a healthy relationship will out grow it; we settle down, we realize our partners have flaws (not at all unlike our relationship with our parental figures) but it doesnt alternate, wildly, between idealization and devaluation, it grows and evolves.

Once removed there is something around this topic that I seem to struggle with a lot and constantly. As much as it hurts I now understand that when he made me feel on top of the world with things he said, there was an exaggeration from his part which in reality didn't have the ability to follow through. However I am wondering if they actually do follow through more with their words with some people more than others. Early on in my relationship with him, I knew about his ex who he was so in love with but broke his heart by cheating on him. The way he described their relationship was as if he did everything for that girl. For example, she was from the same country as me and from what he said he used to come visit her everytime she needed him here. He once told  me I would fly to her for just a hug. He never came to visit me. He made me feel jealous of the relationship they had because with me, although he was telling me that his feelings for me had exceeded the feelings he used to have for her and many MANY other words that I clinged to, he ended up doing absolutely nothing for me. I find it really hard to digest that in the end I fell in love with his words but in reality got nothing from him, but on top of that I keep comparing the two relationships and it hurts me so much to realize that he gave everything to his ex and absolutely nothing to me.

How would you explain that? I know he is a compulsive lier and maybe he had been lying about the kind of relationship he used to have with his ex but I can't know that for sure and I don't want to believe that just to lessen my own pain. Do they manage better with certain people even though their feelings for others may be stronger? I thought of an answer to this as I was typing the question. My understanding is that the more intense their feelings are, the more they sabotage the relationship. Is that correct? But even if this is the case, is it possible that he had this dream relationship with her up until she cheated on him? I just hate it that other than everything I have to deal with after the break up, I find my self struggling with the "why not me" as well.  

Thanks for listening and sorry for hijacking this thread. It has lots of very important information for all of us. I would appreciate any insight.

[blackbirdsong]

i think thats right. from our article on surviving a breakup with someone with borderline personality disorder:

6) Clinging to the words that were said

We often cling to the positive words and promises that were voiced and ignore or minimalize the negative actions. “But she said she would love me forever” Many wonderful and expressive things may have been said during the course of the relationship, but people suffering with BPD traits are dreamers, they can be fickle, and they over-express emotions like young children – often with little thought for long term implications. You must let go of the words. It may break your heart to do so. But the fact is, the actions - all of them - are the truth.

weve probably all done this to some extent, so we can relate. i can recall in high school, telling more than one girl something along the lines of her being the prettiest/most beautiful/most attractive/whatever in the world. i thought it, and i meant it at the time - i was over expressing emotions, like a young child. boundaries play a big role here, as does keeping our egos in check. idealization is a relatively normal part of the honeymoon phase of any relationship. a healthy relationship will out grow it; we settle down, we realize our partners have flaws (not at all unlike our relationship with our parental figures) but it doesnt alternate, wildly, between idealization and devaluation, it grows and evolves.

Once removed there is something around this topic that I seem to struggle with a lot and constantly. As much as it hurts I now understand that when he made me feel on top of the world with things he said, there was an exaggeration from his part which in reality didn't have the ability to follow through. However I am wondering if they actually do follow through more with their words with some people more than others. Early on in my relationship with him, I knew about his ex who he was so in love with but broke his heart by cheating on him. The way he described their relationship was as if he did everything for that girl. For example, she was from the same country as me and from what he said he used to come visit her everytime she needed him here. He once told  me I would fly to her for just a hug. He never came to visit me. He made me feel jealous of the relationship they had because with me, although he was telling me that his feelings for me had exceeded the feelings he used to have for her and many MANY other words that I clinged to, he ended up doing absolutely nothing for me. I find it really hard to digest that in the end I fell in love with his words but in reality got nothing from him, but on top of that I keep comparing the two relationships and it hurts me so much to realize that he gave everything to his ex and absolutely nothing to me.

How would you explain that? I know he is a compulsive lier and maybe he had been lying about the kind of relationship he used to have with his ex but I can't know that for sure and I don't want to believe that just to lessen my own pain. Do they manage better with certain people even though their feelings for others may be stronger? I thought of an answer to this as I was typing the question. My understanding is that the more intense their feelings are, the more they sabotage the relationship. Is that correct? But even if this is the case, is it possible that he had this dream relationship with her up until she cheated on him? I just hate it that other than everything I have to deal with after the break up, I find my self struggling with the "why not me" as well.  

Thanks for listening and sorry for hijacking this thread. It has lots of very important information for all of us. I would appreciate any insight.

It depends. If other side is distant and emotionally reserved they want to chase him/her. This is their "in love" feeling. This is a reason why he was so obsessed. He chased her, she didn't provide closeness as you did... .

[Penelope35]

It depends. If other side is distant and emotionally reserved they want to chase him/her. This is their "in love" feeling. This is a reason why he was so obsessed. He chased her, she didn't provide closeness as you did... .

Every possible explanation hurts at this point. It's a loose loose situation.

[WoundedBibi]

It depends. If other side is distant and emotionally reserved they want to chase him/her. This is their "in love" feeling. This is a reason why he was so obsessed. He chased her, she didn't provide closeness as you did... .

Every possible explanation hurts at this point. It's a loose loose situation.

Let's not forget his mental state. You're here for a reason.

PwBPD can concoct their own version without lying in their point of view. Perhaps he just idealized the relationship with her so it became 'all that' while in actual fact it probably wasn't.

What would bother me if I was you, that while in a relationship I would need to listen to the relationship being compared to the old one. Been there. Very painful.

So what ever way you look at it, it is painful. Let's be honest sometimes everything hurts right now and we can drive ourselves nuts analyzing what happened.

I know your thread triggered me too. Because I was the reserved one he chased. I am not his normal type at all. I am not considered a very attractive woman. He flirted with the really pretty ones, yet he really pursued me. And maybe he did get hung up on me and that's why he wrote about me on this blog of his but it's weird somehow that he writes how cold I was. One it attracted him and two when I gave in and warmed to him, he wasn't that into me anymore...

[Confused108]

It's crazy! But no 2 BPDs are alike. Mine would Idelize me and devalue me too at the same time. One day it would be oh I love you so much and I will never leave you again... Then hours later the same day get a text telling me she is not interested anymore! She did this for a few weeks. Then there was a sense of calm. She didn't pull anything on me for like 4 weeks straight. Then BAM! It was over!  I have read stories in here with the same nonsense that was pulled on me but it's true no 2 are alike. Amazing!

[Lifewriter16]

Hi All,

I really think that, in the idealization phase, the pwBPD believes that they have found someone who will stop their cycle.  The instability in the relationship is always the other person's fault, so the idea is to find someone who won't perpetuate that.  The idealization phase is the part of the relationship before you have found any of the PTSD-like triggers that once removed mentioned.  You are the person who doesn't trigger them, therefore you are safe and provide a loving environment. 

The devaluation is when the triggers start.  You do something, however small, that reminds them of an abusive person from their past.  ... .You can't help but trigger pwBPD.  If they lived in an abusive environment as kids, they are probably very sensitive to new situations that could re-enact their abuse, and they will overgeneralize threats in order to protect themselves.  So if someone was abandoned as a child, and you decide, for example, to go away for a weekend with friends, that will become a trigger.  They need to imagine you not being very valuable to them, because that is how they will console themselves if you decide to leave.  They are mentally preparing themselves for the abandonment and finding a way to survive it so that their anxiety doesn't overcome them.  Devaluing makes them feel more emotionally safe from you abandoning them.

I think this is spot on!


As I've been reading this thread, I've been thinking about something I read in 'If you had controlling parents' by Dan Neuharth yesterday:

'Perfectionistic parents may focus on children's failures and "flaws" as an excuse to withhold love. In so doing, they sidestep the vulnerabilities inherent in loving another."


I'm not entirely sure where my thinking is going with that... .



Lifewriter x

[WoundedBibi]

Hi All,

I really think that, in the idealization phase, the pwBPD believes that they have found someone who will stop their cycle.  The instability in the relationship is always the other person's fault, so the idea is to find someone who won't perpetuate that.  The idealization phase is the part of the relationship before you have found any of the PTSD-like triggers that once removed mentioned.  You are the person who doesn't trigger them, therefore you are safe and provide a loving environment. 

The devaluation is when the triggers start.  You do something, however small, that reminds them of an abusive person from their past.  ... .You can't help but trigger pwBPD.  If they lived in an abusive environment as kids, they are probably very sensitive to new situations that could re-enact their abuse, and they will overgeneralize threats in order to protect themselves.  So if someone was abandoned as a child, and you decide, for example, to go away for a weekend with friends, that will become a trigger.  They need to imagine you not being very valuable to them, because that is how they will console themselves if you decide to leave.  They are mentally preparing themselves for the abandonment and finding a way to survive it so that their anxiety doesn't overcome them.  Devaluing makes them feel more emotionally safe from you abandoning them.

I think this is spot on!


As I've been reading this thread, I've been thinking about something I read in 'If you had controlling parents' by Dan Neuharth yesterday:

'Perfectionistic parents may focus on children's failures and "flaws" as an excuse to withhold love. In so doing, they sidestep the vulnerabilities inherent in loving another."


I'm not entirely sure where my thinking is going with that... .



Lifewriter x

That children from perfectionistic parents learn you can only be loved when you're perfect? So they are unlovable because they are not perfect and hot damn we turn out to be imperfect as well so they can't love us either.

[Lifewriter16]

I know your thread triggered me too. Because I was the reserved one he chased. I am not his normal type at all. I am not considered a very attractive woman. He flirted with the really pretty ones, yet he really pursued me. And maybe he did get hung up on me and that's why he wrote about me on this blog of his but it's weird somehow that he writes how cold I was. One it attracted him and two when I gave in and warmed to him, he wasn't that into me anymore.

I think all people have the compulsion to recreate unresolved childhood conflicts in replay them within adult relationships. Sometimes we grow through them, often we get stuck. Perhaps it was the very 'coldness' he complained about that attracted him, but as soon as you warmed to him you no longer embodied his childhood conflict with a 'cold' parent/carer etc. I don't know about your situation, but my old flame (whom I suspect is NPD) got suddenly interested in me as soon as my BPDxbf came into the equation whereas before then, he was pretty luke warm towards me. I suspect he was replaying the dynamic that existed between himself and his mother when his mother left his father for another man. My old flame who was about 10 years old at the time, was left feeling he couldn't get his mother's love or attention anymore. My meeting someone else sent him into a frenzy of 'love' that there had been no real evidence of beforehand.

Lifewriter x

[WoundedBibi]

I somehow triggered my ex, I don't doubt that. His behaviour triggered me. And I didn't react outwardly to what I felt but it made me insecure and unhappy. And once I had triggered him once it kept happening. Over imagined things. Me just speaking to a male colleague I have known for years and wouldn't ever be interested in in any way was enough for him to snarl at me. And it made me feel like I was 6 and my mum was angry and going to smack me. Such an unhealthy pattern. I have been in a lot of dysfunctional relationships but never in one where I reverted back so clearly to being a little girl. I guess I have never been in one where it felt so angry, so aggressive. Well... .save the one with my mum obviously...

[Lifewriter16]

Hi WoundedBibi,

I'm not surprised to hear that, but I am sorry you've had such a rotten time of it. It's opened core wounds for you and although that's tremendously painful, you now have the opportunity to heal them. Eventually, you will be 'strong at the broken places'.

Love Lifewriter

[HurtinNW]

Mine was also the first relationship were I reverted to much to a frightened four-year-old girl. The sense of betrayal is he could have held and loved that girl and instead further terrorized and hurt her. That's where the hurt lies.

For my ex I think he could act out both his mother and father's roles. He stood helplessly on the sidelines as a child, caught in their cold war. I think he also has a huge anger towards his mother, who engaged in covert emotional incest with him. He was a self-admitted mama's boy. He is completely unaware of this anger, he thinks he adores her. I think I represented his mother to him. She was also in a caring professional, very attractive, serene, nurturing to others, and inwardly hurt. Part of me thinks he was paying her back by hurting me. I believe he is more NPD than BPD, and as such he treats people as objects. He lacks empathy.

I know for my part I was searching for redemption from the person who hurt me.

[Teereese]

My ex would, literally, be in public with me telling his friends how amazing, beautiful and wonderful I am, and then thirty minutes later in the car be raging at me how awful, horrible and unloveable I am. These mini-cycles existed within larger cycles of breaking up and being together. Over time the idealization vanished and all that was left was him obviously trying to contain his anger or else losing his crap.

once removed, thank you for the point that there was a lot going on in their minds we didn't know. I am starting to see that now. I think there was a lot going on inside my ex that he wasn't even aware of. Stepping back, I can look at behaviors as insight into that. For instance, I was always really hurt that he would blow up before every birthday, holiday or event involving me and the kids. Or he would flat-out not remember something he had remembered the week before. I think this was probably wherever he was inside himself, his push-pull coming out in ways that he didn't recognize.

HurtinNW this hits home with me. You are describing my ex ... .my relationship.

[MapleBob]

GREAT insights in this thread, especially this line of thinking:

I really think that, in the idealization phase, the pwBPD believes that they have found someone who will stop their cycle.  The instability in the relationship is always the other person's fault, so the idea is to find someone who won't perpetuate that.  The idealization phase is the part of the relationship before you have found any of the PTSD-like triggers that once removed mentioned.  You are the person who doesn't trigger them, therefore you are safe and provide a loving environment.

I never thought that it would provoke a reaction in her that relationships need work and that this work felt like engulfment.

He came to believe these things in order to put all the blame on me.

'Perfectionistic parents may focus on children's failures and "flaws" as an excuse to withhold love. In so doing, they sidestep the vulnerabilities inherent in loving another."

That children from perfectionistic parents learn you can only be loved when you're perfect? So they are unlovable because they are not perfect and hot damn we turn out to be imperfect as well so they can't love us either.

"I thought you were perfect and safe, but it turns out that all relationships require work and all people are flawed. I don't want to do work (or I can't, or I don't know how), so I'm going to do my best to make it all your fault, and then when you can't fix it for both of us I'll know that you're not perfect and people who aren't perfect aren't loveable, so I guess that's that for this relationship. I'm pretty sure 'perfect' is out there somewhere... ."