Looks Like Divorce

[Verbena]

FF, Here's why I have to tell him about the bank account.

I am a retired teacher and get a monthly annuity which is automatically deposited into our joint bank account.  I just returned home from another bank where I set up both checking and savings accounts in my name.  

The next step is to send in the paperwork to the retirement system with a voided check attached.  My husband checks our account online daily.  He also looks at our checkbook almost daily.  As soon as he notices that a check is missing, he is going to ask me where it is.  I guess I could play dumb or lie about it, but I'm not going to.

Even if he doesn't notice the missing check for a few days,  he is definitely going to notice the missing money (my annuity check) within the next month.  

Both my husband and I contribute money to our household to pay our bills.  I have no intention in leaving all the bills for him to pay on his own.  We're still married; we still have the same bills and responsibilites together.  

My hope is that he will be willing to have a discussion with me which bills I will pay from my account and which ones he will pay.  I have a number of married friends who keep their money separate and share in the bill paying.  I'm not saying that's the best way to do it, and it's obviously not the way my husband and I have ever done it. But, if divorce is likely--and I feel that it is--then I am going to need my own accounts.  He handles everything financial in our marriage; I've handled nothing, other than contribute the money.  That needs to change.  

So, I can wait until he notices the missing voided check or wait until he notices the missing money in the joint account, whichever comes first.  But what's the difference?  We need to discuss the bills.  

Knowing my husband, I may get the silent treatment for weeks once I've told him I have made this change.  I suppose if that happens, then I will just decide on my own which bills to pay from my new account.  My hope is, though, that we can have a discussion about the bill paying now.  

This is what I plan on saying to him:  

"I have set up an account for myself and am having my retirement annuity directed deposited into it.  Can we discuss who will pay what when our bills come due again?"

I don't plan to even say the word divorce.  He has ignored my mentoning divorce several times now anyway, so what's the point.  I have taken this step because I think it was the right thing to do considering what I see for our future.

I know from decades of experience, that my husband perceives any idea I have as a bad one--even if he actually thinks it's a good idea.  This is just how he is.  He will automatically tell me that my ideas won't work.  Sometimes, he will end up going along with the idea but will become angry later if I ask what changed his mind.  He does not believe in changing his mind once it's made it.  Just how he is.  In fact, he has claimed a number of times that he never said he disagreed with an idea I had and, therefore, did not change his mind at all.  Or he will say he doesn't remember which, in his disorted thinking, means it never happened.

Do you see what I'm really dealing with here?  I don't have a whole lot to work with. 

  We'll see how it goes.  I have decided for now to say nothing about having our house evaluated by a realtor.   

[Lucky Jim]

This is what I plan on saying to him: 

"I have set up an account for myself and am having my retirement annuity directed deposited into it.  Can we discuss who will pay what when our bills come due again?"

Hey Verbena, This sounds fine to me.  You aren't asking for his permission in order to do it; instead, you are presenting it as a fait accompli, which has a power to it.  Let us know how it goes.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

So, this is not me changing my mind, this is me trying to look at an issue from all angles.

Please think about your values and how you would like to be treated.

Would you rather him discuss with you, or let you find out?

To me, it seems like the right thing to do, the thing that has integrity is to approach him and let him know.

Is there a way that you approach him about these discussions?  My guess is the answer is no.

Do you eat dinner together? 

I would use the term, "find a time to discuss handling household finances".  Put the ball in his court.  Step back and don't press him.

Is there anything he can do to stop this, ?  It sounds already done and not stoppable.  That pushes me toward you approaching him. 

You get to choose the approach, vice being surprised.

Thoughts?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

This isn't a solution, just a way to kick the can down the road.  The likely reason the bank wants a voided check is to verify the routing number.  If you can convince the bank that you can read and transfer the number yourself, you may not need a voided check.   Thus, you have a few more days / weeks to get settled into your new account, and figure if / what / when to talk about it.

I will not speculate on you relationship, or what is proper, but, I will say that I have reached a point in which I do things unilaterally.  For example, I privately opened my own bank account and divert some money there each paycheck.  That's become my divorce war chest.  It hasn't been noticed, but my wife doesn't scrutinize.  All the bills and household expenses are still paid in full from my check, so there's nothing going undone. 

I do advocate for being independent and self-reliant.  I don't see it as being unfaithful in a relationship.  Just dropping this note to give you encouragement.  I say, you're likely going to face his wrath for something - one way or another, so you might as well follow your gut and do things that give you power over yourself.

[empath]

When I decided to get my own bank account, I had thought through the reasons for the account, and we had discussed the reasons several times before hand. What are the reasons that you have for separating your finances and what are your proposals for going forward? What are the emotional ones and the logistical ones?

[SamwizeGamgee]

When I decided to get my own bank account, I had thought through the reasons for the account, and we had discussed the reasons several times before hand. What are the reasons that you have for separating your finances and what are your proposals for going forward? What are the emotional ones and the logistical ones?

Are you asking rhetorically? 

Or, myself, or the OP specifically?

I would venture to say that everyone should go into a relationship being able to support themselves and remain, or become, autonomous.  Thus separate bank accounts are always appropriate.  A household has shared expenses and shared responsibilities, so goals need to be made together, but, everyone should always have their own account separately, in addition to the household accounts.  IMHO.  That's the advice I'm giving to my kids. 

[formflier]

That is great advice. 

In "traditional" Christian families it often ends up like Verbena and what I used to be in.  Everything shared and generally directed by the man.

In my case, I was the breadwinner and my wife raised kids.  I was fine with it for 15 years, until she went off the rails (so to speak). 

Verbena,   how long have things been this way, financially speaking.  My guess is that you will say the entire marriage.

FF

[Verbena]

FF, I would not want to just find out about another bank account.  I would want to be told and discuss it.  I sent my husband a text earlier telling him, "I have opened my own account.  I would like to discuss which bills each of us will pay." 

He's at work and out and about all day, but he does not text while driving--or even read texts while driving.  If I knew he did that, I wouldn't have sent the message through text. 

I didn't call him because he would have had nothing to say and then told me he had to go.

I didn't elect to tell him in person because he would walk away, probably slamming a door on his way out of the room. 

Do I know 100 percent that these would have been his reactions? No, but it's a pretty sure bet.  So I texted him.  He is very slow to form his thoughts.  This gives him time to think about discussing the bank account with me.  The ball is now in his court. He can discuss it with me if and when he is ready.

Without some kind of dialogue between us as a starting point and without professional counseling, I do think the path we're on leads to divorce. 

My husband has always handled the finances, but for a few years I wrote the checks and mailed off the bills each month. He  has told me that I have NEVER paid the bills in our entire marriage, and he believes this is the truth. 

Sam... .I've already mailed the voided check.  I, too, got tired of trying to get his agreement on how to do things.  Today was the first time I have done something concerning finances completely on my own.  The last time I had my own bank account was 1981.  Yeah, I'm old. 

empath:  My reason for getting my own account is both for emotional and logistical reasons.  I need to build a lot of confidence in myself that I can handle money situations on my own.  It's bothered me for years how uninvolved I've been, and that's my fault.  I will need my own account if I am single, so I'm getting it now. 

[flourdust]

Big steps forward, Verbena. I'm proud of you for taking action.

I went to the bank this weekend to ask about how to disentangle our joint accounts. I learned I'd have to open my own account, and then I could transfer funds and reassign payments to that account. I had just gone in for informational purposes, but I agreed on the spot to open the accounts. I don't have to use them. But they're ready.

[Grey Kitty]

I made every effort I could to save my marriage. I see you having exhausted all the things you can do and are willing to do. At this point you are changing the game. I see a couple paths for you and your H, given how you feel and what you say of his reactions/opinions:

1. Separate your finances and stop living together. Do it in a civil/amicable way, dividing things fairly. From what you say, the two of you will probably have to sell the house and find other living quarters.

2. It could turn into a legal/financial pissing match.

He could transfer joint assets into an individual account, leaving you in a lurch. Or run up a lot of joint debt.

Do you need to do anything to protect yourself from this? You know him very well--does this sound like something he might do? It sounds like he mostly withdraws rather than attacking you, so perhaps these things are unlikely?

Yes, this kind mess should get straightened out in a legal dispute, eventually, but it might take years, and the money might just be gone.

... .you would do well to understand your legal position in a divorce filing, no matter what your choice ends up being. Consider consulting a lawyer. Consider posting on the legal board here.

[Verbena]

Grey Kitty, I don't believe my husband would run up debt, etc to try to hurt me. That doesn't mean he wouldn't, but it doesn't sound like him.

I plan to consult an attorney soon.

Yes, I expect we would have to sell the house. It's paid for.

I suppose we could work out something where I might keep it, but that is unlikely.

My husband hates lawyers almost as much as psychologists. If I can get him to understand that a difficult divorce will benefit only the lawyers, he might agree to do this amicably. It will be expensive no matter what. How expensive is the question.

He's home now. No mention of my text today and I am not bringing it up.

[Grey Kitty]

Perhaps you can use this to your advantage. (Not to take advantage of him, mind you, just to get a fair resolution quickly.) Both that he tends to be passive, and he hates lawyers.

Put your money in your account. Find and consult your attorney with your money. Come up with a fair division plan.

Tell him that this is what you plan to do. See if he will agree to it. Let him consult a lawyer if he wants to.

How do you feel about the house and 34 years of belongings in it? If you get a fair share division of stuff, do you care whether you end up with anything?

[Notwendy]

I wonder if his passivity is so that he can be the blameless one at the end of the marriage. This way, he can be the victim, even though he surely contributed to the demise of the relationship. By doing nothing, he can feel he didn't do it. We all know that isn't true, but he can look at it this way.

[Notwendy]

Stonewalling is a destructive force in a relationship.

I recall my H being very passive, until I got upset. Then I would be the one with the problem- crying while he could say he was calm.

There was a time he refused to participate in any form of MC, get help or acknowledge the issues. I'm pretty sure I would have been in your shoes had he not decided to make some effort. It is maddening to have someone be passive and refuse to try to make things better.

I have no idea why he decided to try. That's a mystery- everyone is different, but I know that I felt at my wits' end when he didn't. I think he has some traits but not the whole spectrum, just enough to match my co-dependency and cause problems for us. My mother is severely affected and that seems to be a different level of difficulty.

[Verbena]

notwendy, I think you nailed it.  He needs to appear blameless and he needs to feel this was all my idea and he had nothing to do with the position we are.  You're right also about stonewalling being a destrucive force.  And gaslighting... .And the silent treatment... .

Grey Kitty, that is basically what I was thinking.  Consult an attorney and come up with a fair plan and present it to him.  As far as my house goes, I hate to let it go.  I've spent twenty-three years making it beautiful, inside and out. The work I've done on this house is the reason I got into decorating for others.  It was my lab so to speak.  People come over and compliment me on my work, but I cannot think of a single time my husband has ever told me I've done a good job with it.  He just can't bring himself to pay me a compliment, and this has bothered me for years.  Oh well.   

There are definitely things in the house that I want.  I think he will be less attached to most of it than I am. Like most people, we have too much stuff.  I plan to do some purging soon.   

This is just such a sad situation. 

UPDATE:  He never responded to my text this morning about the bank account.  He came home from work and never said a word about it. 

[Notwendy]

It is hard to know what someone is feeling when they don't talk. However, this seems to be how he handles things. When all you have in your (relationship) tool box is a hammer (silence), then you use it for everything.

[formflier]

 

Verbena,

When we feel "trapped" or "committed" to a certain path, it seems hard to try things that may lead to a different path.  At least it does for me, I"m seeing some of this in you.

Hey, listen, I'm on your side.  You seem like a realist.  I'm a metric guy.  I think it is an 80% certainty that you will get divorced and you will be the one to initiate it.

I do think there are things that you can do/try that will give you more comfort (at a future date, when you are considering your actions) that you "did everything you could". 

I don't think you are there yet.  I see fear competing with realism.

Here is the thing.  What would Notwendy's life be like if she decided that her husband would never go to MC so she quit taking steps in that direction?  To be clear, it is ridiculous that he and your husband refuse(d) to go talk. 

I think there is a good chance that a meeting with his pastor will end up like the text message.  Granted, he may react to the text in a few days. 

I'll also be honest with you, if I had to bet, I don't think he will go.  But I think you should try, for you.  Also to better define a boundary about you making your own choices.

Last:  I'm a big proponent of staying away from texting about big stuff.  I realize that some have made it work.  What if he never got it?  It does happen.

Solution:  Find him when he is sitting.  Perhaps bring him glass of water.  Mention that you have open an account, will be putting funds in there and wish to discuss splitting of bills when he is ready.  Exit the room.

Ball is in his court.  You can go for walk.

Note:  My wife frustrates me to no end with her silence to direct questions about her desires and opinions.  Then will claim I don't care about them.

Sigh.

FF

[Verbena]

FF, I suppose I could look back on this in a few years and always find something else that I COULD have done, but I am certain that as of right now--33.5 years later--that I have done all I am GOING to do. If anything, I suspect that I will look back and wonder why I have lived this way for so long.   

Yes, the ball is in his court.  If he refuses to talk to me about my account and which bills I will pay from it, then he does.  Once I get the information from the realtor about the house, I will speak to an attorney and ask his advice on what to do next. 

Baby steps. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

I can't help but be drawn back into the thread here.  Are you still most certain that you are headed for divorce, as your post title suggests?

In which case, never mind about tact and timing or owning your own money.  I think it's time to batten down the hatches and do what's best for you.  Being so sensitive now before divorce dirtiness is like when they clean and disinfect the injection sight before a lethal injection administration.

[Verbena]

I can't help but be drawn back into the thread here.  Are you still most certain that you are headed for divorce, as your post title suggests?

In which case, never mind about tact and timing or owning your own money.  I think it's time to batten down the hatches and do what's best for you.  Being so sensitive now before divorce dirtiness is like when they clean and disinfect the injection sight before a lethal injection administration.

Sam... .I am certain we are ON A DIRECT PATH to divorce.  Could something change that? Yes, it's possible.  I believe that with God all things are possible.  I don't believe, though, that God can just zap us and make our marriage right if WE do not seek help together and do the work of trying to get to the root of the issues we have.  I can't make my husband do counseling, or talk to me, or deal with any of this.  He has free will and so do I, and he has made it plain he won't participate. 

So I am trying to move forward with small steps, and I'm asking God daily (many times each day) what to do next.  The answer I'm getting is "Trust me to take care of you. Don't worry."  As hard as that is to do, because I'm human and I do have fears, I'm trying.  I'm confident that I've taken the steps so far that I've been led to take.  

That's an interesting analogy about the injection site, and I see your point.  I guess I am trying to walk a fine line between starting this process of protecting myself and still trying to tiptoe around my husband's way of dealing with me.  

I don't want this to get ugly.  I guess I'm afraid if I push too hard, he will push back.  

[formflier]

   I guess I'm afraid if I push too hard, he will push back.  

Bingo,

If you are going to divorce him, why does this matter.

If you conduct your life based on fear that a person with a PD is going to "push back", well, how does this site teach it is going to turn out for you?

Listen, this is not me saying that you are wrong, bad or "should have" done something else in the past.

I am saying that you SHOULD do some things right now, because the values that I sense coming from you say that is the right thing for you to do.   I want you to live for you and not for your husbands push back.  He has controlled the marriage for 33 years with that.  (I'm assuming your reactions have been relatively the same, please correct if I am erroneous)

So, text messages.  Do you KNOW that he got it?  If your values state that you should inform him then do it.  You change your dynamic and let him react to you. 

FF

[Notwendy]

To be fair to Verbena, I don't think we can compare our situations. I was not married for 33 years at the time- so did not have decades of trying. In addition, the children were young and this was an incentive to work on things for their sake. I truly do not know how we both would have felt decades later with an empty nest.

The decision to stay or leave a marriage is difficult no matter what the decision is and that Verbena can make her own personal decision about that. I have no idea how long I could have endured being faced with silence. Marriage is between two unique people and what happens in one isn't necessarily the same for another. I do think that taking steps to address my own codependency was a huge benefit to me personally.

[formflier]

To be fair to Verbena, I don't think we can compare our situations. 

Sure thing.  I get that.

How many times do you think you were told no before he said yes? 

My purpose here is not to compare situations.  My number one purpose is to point out that it appears to me, that she is altering her behavior (methods of communication) based on what she fears he will do.

Yes, I get it that she has lots of experience.

FF

[byfaith]

I guess I'm afraid if I push too hard, he will push back.  

FF replied

If you are going to divorce him... .why does this matter.

To some it would matter, when some people push back it could get ugly. Verbena may not want to have to deal with some of the crazy things that could happen. If her husband got desperate he could do things that could make her life unbearable.

Like right now I am dealing with a D23 who did something very BPDish. She has been removed from my home but now she is putting me in a position to push back on her because she wants to try to get the upper hand on me. I am not the type to play dirty with someone but if she forces my hand I will

I am guessing Verbena means some type of pushback that makes her do things out of character or out of any comfort zone

When my last wife left me I had to do things out of my normal behavior to get something accomplished, it didn't feel good doing them, but I did them

hopefully that made sense

[Grey Kitty]

Verbana, I'm not going to suggest you stop walking toward divorce. There really isn't much to save in your marriage anymore, from what you say.

I know some people who are on the other side and their lives are so much better than they were before that it is amazing. (Not quite yet for me personally--life is starting to improve, but I've still got a ways to go. Months back my wife expressed regret over ending things with us, but I'm not asking again, and I'm not sure how she feels about it today.)

Do continue to offer your husband chances to change his path, and continue to do all you can to treat him with kindness and respect as walk toward divorce.

You will be glad you did.

And note--that doesn't mean go back to how things didn't work, and doesn't mean stay in a holding pattern just in case he does something different.

You are pretty sure he won't accept that he might be responsible for something and change his behavior. I concur. I doubt he ever thought you would walk out after 33 years. Perhaps when he realizes you mean it he will choose differently. Perhaps he won't. Perhaps it will be too little, too late.

[formflier]

You will be glad you did.

Verbena,

This is the point that I am attempting to make. 

Fortunately (unfortuantely, depending on how you look at it), I have a number of friends that are divorced.  There are a few that regret the decision, there are many that regret things they did or ways they treated their spouse on the way out.

Some of these friends were involved with people that likely had PDs.

Hang in there.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I guess I'm afraid if I push too hard, he will push back.  

FF replied

If you are going to divorce him... .why does this matter.

To some it would matter, when some people push back it could get ugly. Verbena may not want to have to deal with some of the crazy things that could happen. If her husband got desperate he could do things that could make her life unbearable.

Yes, I totally agree with byfaith. Divorce is the ultimate rejection and we know how pwBPD or other PDs handle rejection.

My first husband became much less anchored to reality in ways that I never would have suspected after I initiated divorce. It's one thing to walk on eggshells when actively involved in a relationship with a pwBPD. It's quite a different matter when untwining a long marriage. No matter how smoothly soon to be ex-partners can come to agreement on issues, there are bound to be bumps along the path. I think being extra sensitive at these times is important.