Looks Like Divorce

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

As of last night, it looks like divorce is in my future.  I have been married for 33.5 years but cannot live this way any longer.  

My husband refuses marriage counseling, refuses to acknowledge that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage, and claims he does not remember events that have brought us to this point.

He suggested last night forgiveness and moving on although he has not asked for forgiveness from me.  In fact, he is now claiming he has already apologized for many things but that I wouldn't accept his apologies.  In 33.5 years I can't recall him apologizing for anything other than the statement two months ago "If I've ever done anything to make you feel this way, then I'm sorry."  Yet, he claims that the things I tell him that have happened (the stuff he says he apologized for) never even happened.  Or at least he does not remember them.


When I tried last night to tell him what I was accountable for in the marriage and what my faults and mistakes have been, he shut me down quickly saying that he did not want to hear about my mistakes. When I tried to tell him how his behavior over the years made me distance myself from him--and that doing that was a mistake on my part because it made our marriage worse--he interrupted me with "Where do you get this stuff? It sounds like you are quoting from a physchology textbook."  He hates psychologists, by the way.  He majored in psychology.  Oh the irony.

The biggest triggers for him seem to be the words "accountable" and "behavior."  He was furious that I would say he is not being accountable and furious that I would bring up his behavior.

He was also very upset when I told him that it was a mistake on my part telling our children, when they were little, to stay away from him when he was angry.  They asked me often why daddy was mad, what was wrong with daddy, why did daddy act that way.  At first, I told them daddy wasn't mad, that it was okay.  Later, as they got older, I told them it was best to stay away from him until things got better. 

My husband said to me last night, "How dare you ever tell our children to stay away from me?" He didn't seem concerned that they were coming to me asking questions about his behavior, but he was very upset at how I handled it.   


It's a sad place we are in, but I do not know what else to do.  I know that God will guide me in every baby step that I now need to begin taking.  

[Verbena]

As of last night, it looks like divorce is in my future.  I have been married for 33.5 years but cannot live this way any longer.  

My husband refuses marriage counseling, refuses to acknowledge that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage, and claims he does not remember events that have brought us to this point.

He suggested last night forgiveness and moving on although he has not asked for forgiveness from me.  In fact, he is now claiming he has already apologized for many things but that I wouldn't accept his apologies.  In 33.5 years I can't recall him apologizing for anything other than the statement two months ago "If I've ever done anything to make you feel this way, then I'm sorry."  Yet, he claims that the things I tell him that have happened (the stuff he says he apologized for) never even happened.  Or at least he does not remember them.


When I tried last night to tell him what I was accountable for in the marriage and what my faults and mistakes have been, he shut me down quickly saying that he did not want to hear about my mistakes. When I tried to tell him how his behavior over the years made me distance myself from him--and that doing that was a mistake on my part because it made our marriage worse--he interrupted me with "Where do you get this stuff? It sounds like you are quoting from a physchology textbook."  He hates psychologists, by the way.  He majored in psychology.  Oh the irony.

The biggest triggers for him seem to be the words "accountable" and "behavior."  He was furious that I would say he is not being accountable and furious that I would bring up his behavior.

He was also very upset when I told him that it was a mistake on my part telling our children, when they were little, to stay away from him when he was angry.  They asked me often why daddy was mad, what was wrong with daddy, why did daddy act that way.  At first, I told them daddy wasn't mad, that it was okay.  Later, as they got older, I told them it was best to stay away from him until things got better. 

My husband said to me last night, "How dare you ever tell our children to stay away from me?" He didn't seem concerned that they were coming to me asking questions about his behavior, but he was very upset at how I handled it.   


It's a sad place we are in, but I do not know what else to do.  I know that God will guide me in every baby step that I now need to begin taking.  

[Daniell85]

Your husband has a point. Triangulation and parental alienation.

In terms of his "apologies", well we all know BPD won't say sorry much, won't account for themselves.

You have been married a very long time. You know how he operates. I am curious what you were hoping to accomplish with discussing these things with him?

And... .everyone has limits. You feel you cannot cope. Those are valid feelings. What are you considering as your next steps?

[byfaith]

You have been married a very long time. You know how he operates. I am curious what you were hoping to accomplish with discussing these things with him?

Sometimes we just have to get the load off of us and place it on them because we carry this crap around for so long and try to bear the burden because we "know" how they are. We live a life "accepting" that they never will be accountable for their actions and they will never say they are sorry (rare) for their behavior. We know deep down that it will not accomplish much if anything other than getting it out there.

[Notwendy]

Doing this can also result in us feeling worse. When someone projects, they project their feelings outward on others. So, unloading can result in having it all heaped on us, along with the anger it triggers. Unloading with the hope of feeling heard, understood and leading to accountability can be a disappointment.

Personally, I have not had much success with words, but with actions. Actions being boundaries. If the conversation is leading into a circular argument, I stop talking. I literally just stop. If someone is saying cruel things to me, I can choose to not react, not engage, and also walk out of the room or say I need to leave if on the phone. What I don't do is react back by being rude, hanging up, or the ST. I simply say " I need a moment, excuse me" and stop.

I can also not participate in baited conversations. Something like "how dare you" can be responded to by, saying, I see you are concerned, but I would like to have this conversation later.

The key to me is to check in with myself. If I am feeling upset by the situation, I don't think I can have a discussion. Some types of discussions don't work. But firmly, and not reactionary boundaries can make a difference.

[byfaith]

Notwendy,

So the action in Verbenas case may be... .she knows she has had enough of this in 33.5 years and divorce appears to be in the future. She knows he is not going to change and she knows she is not going to feel any different about his behavior so her only option now is accept his behavior OR move on and plan her future with divorce as the only way out instead of trying to get him to see the light?

When someone projects, they project their feelings outward on others.

did you mean she was projecting her feelings onto him?

If the conversation is leading into a circular argument, I stop talking. I literally just stop. If someone is saying cruel things to me, I can choose to not react, not engage, and also walk out of the room or say I need to leave if on the phone. What I don't do is react back by being rude, hanging up, or the ST. I simply say " I need a moment, excuse me" and stop.

I have had some success with this which is progress for me

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Verbena,

I admire your courage to stand up for yourself after 33.5 years of marriage.  I was married for about half that time to my BPDxW, and it nearly destroyed me.  That you have persevered for so long is a testament to your values and commitment.  Yet I came to doubt what I was committed to, which in my case was marriage to an abusive alcoholic suffering from BPD.  Towards the end, my T asked me if I thought that I had "tried everything"?  I said, "Yes, I think I have."  She replied, "I think so, too."  That was a lightbulb moment for me.

LuckyJim

[Cat Familiar]

Verbena, you've put up with his behavior for so long and you've tried everything you could possibly do. He has not taken responsibility nor has he been willing to change nor participate in counseling.

I've been in your shoes and I finally had enough and ended my marriage. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. Certainly it was a struggle after so many years, but it was such a relief to no longer put up with the rages and the abuse. I wish you the best as you move forward.  

Daniell, I take exception to your depiction of "triangulation and parental alienation". Having grown up with a raging BPD mother, learning to stay away from her was a survival strategy. I think Verbena did the best she could in advising her children to avoid their father while he was dysregulated. It is devastating as a child to think that you're responsible for your parent's rage.

[Notwendy]

ByFaith,

What I mean by projecting, I was referring to someone who has BPD. They tend to project. They also tend to have a weak sense of self and if criticized, or they feel they are criticized, it can feel very painful to them. Since they tend to project bad feelings they are likely to react poorly to being told by their spouse that they have a problem or are causing problems.

I did not mean Verbena was projecting. I was talking about the reaction of her H to her saying this:

When I tried to tell him how his behavior over the years made me distance myself from him--and that doing that was a mistake on my part because it made our marriage worse--he interrupted me with "Where do you get this stuff? It sounds like you are quoting from a psychology textbook."

What I think we hope when we say to someone " you are hurting me, or your behavior is hurting me" is for them to say they are sorry and will try not to hurt us. If someone projects then they can have an opposite response- being critical back ,deflecting the conversation, as Verbena's H did. That is a form of projection.

[byfaith]

thanks Notwendy... .that's what I thought you meant. I get this all of the time from my wife.   

Also verbena I agree with Lucky Jim... .I admire your courage to stand up for yourself after 33.5 years of marriage. That you have persevered for so long is a testament to your values and commitment.

[Succotash]

Verbena... I understand how difficult this is for you and admire you as well for your courage. I also have been married to my uBPDw for 33 years 4 months and a few days. Things that were never in my vocabulary were codependency, BPD, enabler ect.  By the time I figured things were not right I was entrenched. I also made excuse after excuse to the kids for their Moms behavior. I was still doing this when my oldest was in college and the younger kids were about to finish high school. I never believed in therapy, although at her request I went some 20 years ago. It was a highly recommended marriage councilor and after the 2nd visit he said if my uBPDw wouldn't come with me, he couldn't help us. He told me then I am not the ogre I was told I am. Man, did I miss those clues.

A few years ago I knew I needed answers so I googled "walking on eggshells" and this is were it lead me. ( Thank you Randi! )  I was woken up! I know she has issues I cannot help but I also know I have my share of enabling her ways. Here is the thing; around any other human being I will and have stood toe to toe over right and wrong. I will stand up and do things when nobody else has the moxy to do so... but when it came to her, I shut up and took it, hoping she will get it all out and never stood up for myself. I started making boundaries and started working on me and that was gas on a fire. I left for one night after her raging and getting violent. That night as I was trying to get away she threw a 4 foot wooden bench at me as I was getting down the stairs as fast as possible. I never talked about this to anyone before now. I went back the next morning to try again. Just as I was getting serious about trying to make the situation better, she was diagnosed with cancer. F.O.G. had a new meaning.

I was told I was the root cause of her cancer. She is a cancer survivor now and 2 years cancer free. During surgeries and chemo things went right back to status quo. At some point you have to realize the reality and know when enough is enough. That is a very hard thing to do when 3/4 of your life was no where near normal. I re-read the Characteristics of a Healthy Intimate Relationship this morning after reading your post and cannot even imagine what that would be like, but everyone deserves to be cared for, loved and forgiven, and mostly feel protected by their SO. If you are not, you need to love yourself enough to get out of that situation.

I know you have tried and this is not easy after a lifetime with that person. I know God WILL guide as well as protect you.  I wish you the very best.

 

[Verbena]

I absolutely despise parental alienation and would never, and have never, attempted to do that.  I carry a lot a guilt over telling my children when they were young to avoid their father when he was in one of his nasty, negative moods.  I knew I couldn't keep pretending he was not acting the way he was, and I knew that as they got older I couldn't keep lying to them that he wasn't actually angry.  I did tell them to leave him alone when he was like this, but I always told them it had nothing to do with them. 

We have a BPD daughter who is almost 31.  She is much, much better than she has ever been, but she still struggles.  I have often wondered if how I dealt with their father's behavior had anything to do with her having BPD. 

So I strongly resent being told that I triangulated my children or tried to alienate them from their father.  I have made mistakes--many of them--but that isn't one of them.  Both my son and daughter have a good relationship with their father, and I wouldn't want it any other way. 

As far as being called courageous... .well, I haven't really felt that way, but thank you.   I have spent decades avoiding the issues and normalizing my marriage out of FEAR.  I'm not saying I've ever been physically afraid of my husband.  I'm saying I have feared what it would mean to walk away. 

I have a ton to do to be ready to be on my own.  I have never lived on my own in my 55 years, handled a car loan on my own, dealt with finances to any degree on my own.  I have a lot to learn.

I know that God will hold my hand through each and every step and take care of me.  He tells us over and over not to be fearful but lean on Him.  That is my overall plan.

I will be getting my own bank accounts soon, and I will start using my son-in-law as my assistant for decorating jobs.  I am a retired teacher and now focus on design work.  I could continue to ask for my husband's help with this, and I think he would continue to help me as he always has.  But, I think it's best to be less dependent on him for this in preparation for the future.  My son-in-law says he is more than willing to help me with whatever I need. 

Both my children and son-in-law know that I am at the end of my rope and that I need to start moving in a different direction. 

[Daniell85]

I dont care if you take exception, cat, it simply is my own opinion. You can redirect and support a child WITHOUT saying mommy or daddy is dangerous and must be avoided.  

You certainly did triangulate and parental alienate, verbena. Taking a child aside and coaching them in a negative way is alienation. Getting them on your side by doing so is triangulation. It is what it is.

You have been quite strongly vocal, here, very negative in many of your posts. I see a ton of anger and bitterness. Like ff wife, involving the children is suspect.

However since you are in denial, i wont prod at you, eventually people come to realizations when they are ready.

[Verbena]

I have never told my children their daddy was dangerous.  Not then, not now.  I did not take them aside and coach them.  They came to me asking questions and I told them it was best to avoid their daddy because he was so angry at that time.  And I told them it was not their fault. 

You're entitled to your opinion as I am mine.  I'm the one who was here when it all happened, and you weren't. 

[Verbena]

My son, who is now 26, left home at 18 and rarely visited for the first two years even though he was only two hours away at college.  At some point during his junior year, he came home for several days and apparently ended up confronting his father over his behavior.  I wasn't there when it happened, but my son came to me and told me about it.  He also said to me, "I guess he had forgotten how Dad is.  I really don't know how you do it, Mom."  

Later, my son apologized to me for saying what he did about his dad, but I knew he was speaking from his heart.  They still have a very good relationship in spite of all this, but I do think it would be more difficult if they saw each other on a regular basis.  My son lives overseas now and has for almost three years.

I minimized my husband's behavior for years to many people who were aware of it, and especially to myself.  I can't do that anymore.  It has taken a toll on me and I have to do what I need to do to improve my life. 

[Lucky Jim]

I minimized my husband's behavior for years to many people who were aware of it, and especially to myself.  I can't do that anymore.  It has taken a toll on me and I have to do what I need to do to improve my life.

Bravo, Verbena.  My BPDxW is a gregarious person and was regarded as the unofficial "mayor" of our town.  Little did people suspect what she was like behind closed doors.  I covered up for her many times, which I'm not proud of.  Those w/BPD, in my experience, are quite careful about hiding their disorder, and only the closest friends and family members get to see what they are really like.  Like your attitude, Verbena.  Do what you need to do.  Don't forget to listen to your gut feelings (I ignored mine, which caused years of suffering),

LuckyJim

[empath]

There is a big difference between a parent who plants ideas in their children's minds and one who responds to their children's questions with guidance about a healthy boundary. My own daughter is quite worried about her father because he acts like "he's not okay" and she is afraid that he might do something impulsive that would hurt himself or her. It is appropriate for me to help give her tools to respond appropriately.

Personally,  I don't think it is a mistake to distance ourselves from people who hurt us repeatedly - that is a healthy response.  Being with a PWBPD can twist our own thinking so that it is like theirs.

[Verbena]

empath, you're right about the twisted thinking.  Sometimes it makes me question what I know is really the truth.  The passive agressive mind games only really started in the last few years. 

succotash, 33 years, 4 months, and a few days huh?  Not that you're counting, of course.  Yes, it is a LONG time to struggle with a relationship. I'm sorry you went through all that.  My husband has never been violent (unless you count lots of door slamming, the kind that shake the whole house), but there was a scary rage about a year ago that almost had an evil quality about it.  Something about his voice... .It didn't even sound like him. 

[formflier]

Verbena,

I think you are on solid footing with what you told your kids. 

That is good, general advice that applies to everyone.  The fact that a person is a parent of a kid doesn't change that they should be avoided when angry.  Give them space to calm.

Now, if you had gotten into details and said, ":)addy isn't normal.  He does this at 3 times the rate of the average population, blah blah blah, "  OK, now you could be planting a see about ":)addy is not right".


OK, you know me.  I'm a stayer at heart.  One thing that jumped out at me was "he shut me down fast". 

Have you ever done a talking stick?  Take one minute turns, or two minute turns.  Whoever has the stick gets to talk.  Other person focuses on open ears.

I think I've asked before.  What happens if you call his pastor and schedule a meeting and invite him.  It's not counseling.  You have questions about the Bible and how it applies to your life.  You are giving your husband the chanc to be the spiritual leader he is called to be and show up, and you are going to an expert (pastor) to make sure that you are not straying too far afield.

Is there an interim step before divorce? 

FF

[Verbena]

Formflier,

Thank you for your response.  I know that I did my best with my children.  They are now both grown and have their own frustrations with their father's behavior.  They both have a pretty good relationship with him, though, and my desire is that a divorce does not change that.  

In hindsight, it probably would have been much better all those years ago  to go to my husband and tell him the children were asking why he was so angry and that I didn't know what to tell them and would he talk to them.  His typical response whenever I used to ask him why he was angry was a very angry, "I'm NOT angry!" And then he'd walk away and not talk to me.  So that might not have worked very well either.  Who knows.  

As for the talking stick,  he would think it was ridiculous and wouldn't do it.  And even if he agreed to the stick, once I brought up my own failings and wanted to explain them, he would get up and walk away.  If he isn't going to be accountable, he doesn't want me to be either.  He basically just wants me to stop talking about all this  completely.  He told me this the other night.  "Stop bringing this up.  Stop talking about it."

I asked him about three months ago to go to counseling and he refused.  I asked him again a couple of weeks later to reconsider.  He refused.  The other night when we talked, I asked if he would consider talking to his pastor with me (used to be my pastor until I left that church because I felt so fake there given our situation), and he said, "What possible good would that do?"  

If I tried again to bring up the subject of speaking to his pastor but didn't use the word counseling, he would still say no.  My husband does not want to talk to me, or to anyone, about anything remotely connected to our issues.  He doesn't want to, and he isn't going to.  That's the message I am getting from him.  

I think my husband believes he has nothing to do with any of this.  I am the problem.  I left the church and he doesn't understand why, nothing to do with him. I want to do counseling and that makes no sense to him, nothing to do with him.  I want to talk about how to fix our marriage, and his solution is just stop talking about it and move on. Nothing to do with him.  

I really believe he will go to his grave saying, "I don't remember.  That never happened.  Nothing to do with me."

I don't know what else I can do other than start taking baby steps toward divorce.  I'm still praying for direction.  

[formflier]

I think you should schedule a time with his pastor.  Make sure he is available.  Have at least 4 meetings. 

If he refuses to come and at least sit and listen, then you have your answer.

Subject matter is you.  What can you do to help heal the marriage.

Stay away from divorce talk until meeting 5.  Assuming he is a no show.

You can tell I am a metric guy, my hope is that your divorce decision is based on your feelings AND measurable effort on your part and measurable failure on his.

FF

[Verbena]

I think you should schedule a time with his pastor.  Make sure he is available.  Have at least 4 meetings.  

If he refuses to come and at least sit and listen, then you have your answer.

Subject matter is you.  What can you do to help heal the marriage.

Stay away from divorce talk until meeting 5.  Assuming he is a no show.

You can tell I am a metric guy... .my hope is that your divorce decision is based on your feelings AND measurable effort on your part and measurable failure on his.

FF

FF, I am trying not to make things worse than they already are.  My husband is not going to attend meetings with me with his pastor.  He has absolutely said he will not.  I have never seen my husband back down from a position in over three decades, so I have to take him at his word when he has told me (three times now) that he will NOT go to speak with anyone--not alone and not with me.  

If I tell my husband that I will just go see the pastor by myself, there will be serious fallout around here.  We are not in a financial position currently to support two households, so neither of us could just up and move out to give the other some space if things suddenly get much worse, which they will, if I go to his pastor.

Right now, things are civil between my husband and me.  It's not a marriage by any means, but we're existing mostly peacefully.  Our 17-month old grandson is here daily, and I have to think about him, too, in any decision I make that could worsen the situation.  

My husband does not want our situation talked about with anyone.  He does not want to talk about it with me either.  I believe my husband will perceive me going to his pastor by myself, without his agreement, as me backing him into a corner.  This is something I really want to avoid.  

Also, I cannot do this by myself.  My husband has very, very deep issues that need to be dealt with,  I need help for myself,  and we need help together for our marriage.  

I appreciate all of your suggestions, I really do.  I'm just being honest about the reality of my situation.

A couple of months ago, I told my husband that we could end up divorced if we did not get some help.  Just this week, I told him I believed we WOULD end up divorced if we did not get some help.  He has completely ignored these comments.  He had no response whatsoever.

It's possible that he doesn't think I am serious, I'm not sure.  I do believe that he will avoid dealing with our problems at all costs--even divorce. 

We will have been married 34 years in August.  I just can't do this anymore. 

[Notwendy]

Verbena,

Nobody but you knows the extent of your marriage and how hard you tried. After 33 + years, I believe you will make the best decision you can in the situation you are in.

From my own experience with a BPD parent, I think there is a difference between  parental alienation and acknowledging a parent's problems. When BPD mom was angry at my father, she would try to coerce us to "her side". In her world, there were two sides to people in her life. People were either on her side or not on her side. If it took saying things about the other person to support her case, then she would.

My father's side of this was mostly frank denial. There was no discussion of mental illness. He either had my mother on a pedestal- she could do no wrong, we were forbidden to say anything about her that didn't present her in a positive light. In rare moments of stress, he would vent, but if we supported his view, he would soon change to his positive view of her and get angry if we continued to do so.

I found out about her having BPD later from other sources.

I know that for my father, saying anything was walking a line between parental alienation and acknowledging that we kids were developing a sense of our own reality, and could clearly see that our mother was different from our friends' mothers. It is a delicate situation. However, one thing I think is a difference is intent. Mom's intent was to get us on "her side". Another intent could be to support the kids in understanding the situation and to reinforce their own boundaries about what is acceptable behavior to them.

Because this is such a hard line to walk I think it would help to have a counselor involved. I know that for you, your children are grown adults, but it may help with younger kids ( and kids of any age) to have an advocate who is not a parent inform them and help them cope.

[Verbena]

Thank you all for the supportive responses.  I wish I had sought out resources like this one ages ago.  Of course, there was no Internet back when this marriage began, and I didn't know what I was dealing with really until just the past few years. I'm actually still not sure he is BPD.  I do know he has false memories and very distorted thinking.  And I've known for decades that he was seething with anger. 

The parental alienation accusation made here is not based on reality, but I do wish I had gotten my kids and myself into counseling... .or something... .long ago.  I'm not sure that staying with their father was really the right thing to do, but I can't change that now.  I just have to move forward. 

notwendy, I can't even imagine what you had to endure growing up with your BPD mother.  The stories you've told have made my heart break for you.  Thank you for your insight into my situation. 

[Notwendy]

Thanks Verbena,

Like many children, we thought this is the way things are. It was not until we were older and spent time away from home with other mothers ( relatives, friends' mothers) that we noticed a difference.

Also, we were fortunate that things were not as bad as they could have been. My parents were able to cloth us, feed us, we had nice places to live and access to good education. This contributed to our resilience, but also made it hard to seek out help. Nobody would ever believe that kids with nice clothes to wear and good grades were subjected to the issues we were. Yet, like you, it was before the internet and a generation that knew little about mental illness or treatment.

When I look at pictures of my parents as newlyweds, at pictures of my father looking so happy and my beautiful mother, I wonder when did this start to be difficult for them, for him, and how they must have not had a clue at the time. I truly believe that he did the best he could in their time. Mental illness was something to hide.

Like most parents, we did the best we could with our kids. The kids know something, they ask, and need adults to be honest with them. Parental alientation IMHO is different than validating children's feelings. I would also say that in the long run, IMHO  it is the parent's behavior that alienates the children from them- ie the relationship with my mother was determined more by her behavior to me than anything my father could have said or not said.

You will do what is best for you, and by doing so, you will be your best for your children and grandchildren.

[Verbena]

notwendy, as hard as it must have been growing up with your mom, it still sounds like you had a lot to be thankful for. I'm sure your dad did the best he could with the situation.  It was just a different time.

As adults now, my children have noticed and commented on how their dad seems worse.  He is worse, but they're also not around him as much as they used to be.  I think that accounts for some of it. 

A few years ago I told my son, now 26, how much I appreciated the fact that he never gave us an ounce of trouble growing up.  He just looked at me and said, "Mom, I knew you had a lot on your plate."  No doubt he was mainly referring to the nightmare years of his sister who has BPD (she is MUCH better now), but he also knew it wasn't easy for me because of his dad. 

You're right, notwendy, about kids just "knowing" that something is off and the importance of a responsible adult to provide some validation when they ask questions.  My daughter caught me by surprise the other day when she asked me out of the blue why I married her father if he was always like this.  Then she answered her own question and said, "He must have been different before you married him."  I just told her that things have changed since then. 

It was three months into my marriage when I began to see the behavior.  He did a great job at masking his issues while we were dating.  I had no clue what I was dealing with, not then and not for many years after that.

[formflier]

If I tell my husband that I will just go see the pastor by myself, there will be serious fallout around here. 

Verbena,

I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong, hoping you can look at this from all angles and make wise decisions.

I see fear in the quote above.  What do we teach about making decisions based on fear?

I'm also not saying that now is the time to do this.  In fact, I would suggest a wise course of action is to make sure your pathway to divorce is clear (whatever that is) but before taking steps down that pathway (or too many steps).

Let me sweeten up the idea some.

1.  Ask him to set up the meeting.  If he says no, then let him know a date and time a week or so out where you will consider his actions to have said no.  (I don't like the way I've worded this,   it doesn't need to be a line in the sand, )   Perhaps this ":)ear hubby, please contact pastor x by this coming Saturday to set up a time for us to discuss some biblical (insert your appropriate word here) issues.  My desire is that we find time the following week to meet with him."

Don't react to his no statements and inquiries.  Simply state that you will discuss it at the meeting.

2.  It is important that there is a date in the first request.  Let that date pass by a few days then contact the pastor yourself.  Make an appointment for a time that you believe your hubby to be free.  Once the appointment is set, invite your hubby.  Attend the appointment regardless of whether or not he shows.


3.  If he wants to know what is talked about, he can show up.  Don't speak of the meetings any other time.

Stay away from saying "the meeting is about us" or "you".

If he refuses to show up to several of these meetings, then, you have some solid evidence that he is going the other way.

Or not going with you.

That, coupled with your experiences up to this point, should give you peace of mind about taking further steps toward divorce.

If he agrees to go to the meeting, well, that will be several threads worth of stuff.

FF

[Verbena]

FF, yes you are right that there is some fear in my statement about fallout.   Fear is what has kept me from leaving this marriage before now--fear that being on my own would be too difficult.  I no longer have that fear.  I already have a peace that I have done all I can. 

You have to remember that I have been dealing with all this for 33 years, far longer than you have been dealing with your wife's issues.  Can you envision another 25 or so years of the last few months dealing with your wife? At some point, enough is just enough. 

I know my husband and nothing good will come from attempting again to get him to go with me to see his pastor.  He won't do it.  Nothing good will come from me going without him, other than it will make him more angry at me than he already is. 

Whether I call it counseling, discussing Biblical issues, making it all about me and not him... .he won't participate and I know this.  If anything, me going without him will just deepen his shame that he is unwilling to work on our marriage.  He can't handle his pastor knowing that he refuses to take part in counseling.  He needs to pin this all on me to save face.  I figured that out last week with some comments he made to me. 

Should I be concerned about his shame?  His stubborness?  Maybe not.  But I cannot force this issue anymore.  He has made his decision to do nothing, to ignore my requests for help, to ignore my attempts at solving our issues on our own.  He wants no part of any of it. 

I hope this doesn't come across as me not being appreciative of your responses.  I am very appreciative.  I just know that the gig is up.  I have to move forward with some tough choices and prepare for my future without him. 

Today I am getting my own bank account.  Later this week I am having someone evaluate my home in the event we have to sell it.  I am telling my husband that I have taken this steps.  I am not saying to him that we must rush out and file for divorce right now.  It's going to take time.  But he needs to know I am serious. 

[formflier]

  But he needs to know I am serious. 

Hey, first of all, this is me, the tough grumpy naval aviator.  And you are here among friends.  So, please speak plainly.

I don't think it is a good idea you inform your husband of your steps

At least not right now.

I would be more "fearful" that he would react to that, than going to his pastor.

Get things set up, then discuss with him.  Preferably with his pastor or another third party.

There is some odd thinking here.  You don't want to make him more angry, yet are telling him about steps to divorce him.

One of the reasons I post the way I do, is that I'm sure I don't think clearly "in my own stuff" and I appreciate the challenges.

And I'm also just as sure that I am not always right, and my not be in your case.

Big question:  If you are going to divorce him, why do you care if he knows you are serious?

So, if he says  "I see you are serious, "   you sill divorce him.

If he taunts you and says "you don't have the guts to divorce me"  you still divorce him.

What am I missing in the desire for him to "know" you are serious.

FF

[Verbena]

Ok, you make some good points, FF.  

My intention was to set up the account and then discuss it with him--if he will talk to me.  I can say nothing about the new account, but he is going to know when my retirement check is no longer being deposited in our joint account.  Maybe not today, but very soon.

Discussing anything with him in front of a third party is not going to work, and certainly not with his pastor.  He won't do that.  

I could keep the information from the realtor to myself for now, and I might do that.

If I am coming across as trying to "shock" him into reality, I'm really not.  I'm not sure anything will make my husband face the reality of our marriage.  But I AM serious that I am going to take some steps forward, and I DO have to tell him about the bank account at the very least.  

[formflier]

Why do you have to talk to him about the bank account?

The  real question.  Why are you choosing to tell him, or not tell him.?

FF