Red Flags that didn't wave as much...

[drained1996]

In taking inventory on my missteps in getting into a second r/s with a BPD, I've noted two possible red flags, other than the many, many glaringly obvious ones that so blindly in love me ran right over  .

1.  Music, she always had music playing, in the car, in her home, working out etc.  When we started to spend time together in my home, though I listen to music it's not an integrated every moment part of my life.  I noticed she would always be a little uncomfortable and would turn on my IPod.  After a few times I politely asked if she could go without music, and just enjoy the peace and quiet, or some good conversation.  She obliged but I noticed the discomfort.  Over time she became more comfortable with less music, but it always seemed in the back of her mind.  And in hindsight, I can remember a more than a few occasions where I know she used music to mask her discomfort.  Coping mechanism I guess?

2.  Cleaning.  I attributed it to maybe OCD as she surely showed signs of that!  But the more I was around, the more I noticed it too seemed to be a coping mechanism.  Have any of you noted any red flags that weren't so noticeable?  And would you all agree these indeed may be red flags to notice in the future?

[Wize]

I'm similar to your BPD ex when it comes to music.  And I ain't BPD. I love music, I listen to it all the time.  To me it's art, it's a form of expression that conveys a message that connects with me.  Music is divine.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi drained-

Many people use music and compulsive, mindless activities like cleaning because we can have challenges being alone with our thoughts and being still; the constant external input is more comfortable, to the point where some folks consider cleaning a form of "therapy" and describe it as such.

Borderlines are in a lot of mental and emotional pain, and are looking for ways to soothe it, and music and cleaning could be useful tools for that, although they are not necessarily red flags like the glaringly obvious ones you mention.

That's a good skill to practice for all of us: turn off all the technology, turn off all the "busy", and just sit, and be.  If we're not used to that it will be difficult at first, and our brains may not shut up, they never will really, and that's a good thing, but sitting still with our thoughts and creating contentment with them is a great place to build a life from.  It can be educational too; things we might be in denial of might show up in our consciousness, now that we've stopped running long enough to let them catch up, and those things can now be addressed and resolved, important steps towards that contentment.  Done any of that lately drained?

[drained1996]

Wize, I agree music is a wonderful art and form of expression.  In my experience with her though, it wasn't about the art or any message.  It was more like white noise to drown out her ever racing thoughts.  It seemed she used it to distract herself from her own thoughts.  :)oes that make sense to you?

[C.Stein]

Red flags are a subjective determination.  The two you have listed here I don't see them as red flags or even necessarily related in any way to BPD.

Do you have any more red flags you may have noticed?  Try to relate things you experienced to the DSM Diagnostic Criteria.

I have been working on a rather extensive document with respect to this.  I have looked at my exs behavior as objectively as possible and made correlations to the diagnostic criteria and to behavior that is typically reported in borderline relationships.  In this exercise I hope to better understand her and what might have been going on in her head and in our relationship.  I am also using it to better understand myself, looking for places where I made mistakes and where I allowed her to change who I fundamentally am.  I also am using it as a vehicle of sorts ... .towards forgiveness for both her and myself and to find something positive I can take from the most devastating experience I have ever had to endure.

This document has also served to keep me grounded when I find myself asking "what if".  This has probably been the most worthy use of it so far.

[drained1996]

Thanks for the reply fromheeltoheal.  I understand we all use things whether it be music, TV, etc to "fill time" or to distract us from our own loneliness.  That was kind of my point of the post.  These noticed activities took place while she had company and wasn't alone (and was "happy", whether it was me, or me and her kids.  These things took place a lot, even for the first 6-8 months that were the honeymoon and no real problems had occurred.  

And yes, I've done plenty for myself lately.  And I agree with you, it is a great skill to practice and everyone should do it even though it can be uncomfortable at times... .especially at first.  

[drained1996]

Yes C Stein, I've gone through all the major red flags and made note of them mentally.  I was reaching a little further out with this with some less obvious signs that I now view as possible red flags.  While I agree, I don't see these two directly correlated to BPD, BUT, the way she used them to extremes I feel was a possible red flag of sorts... .maybe even pointing ever so subtly towards BPD issues.  Does that make sense?

[C.Stein]

Yes C Stein, I've gone through all the major red flags and made note of them mentally.  I was reaching a little further out with this with some less obvious signs that I now view as possible red flags.  While I agree, I don't see these two directly correlated to BPD, BUT, the way she used them to extremes I feel was a possible red flag of sorts... .maybe even pointing ever so subtly towards BPD issues.  Does that make sense?

It makes sense with regard to avoidance of ones inner self, but I think that is something we all do from time to time.  We have to be careful not to reach too far with our flag definitions or we will find ourselves with no one passing the flag test.   

[fromheeltoheal]

I understand we all use things whether it be music, TV, etc to "fill time" or to distract us from our own loneliness.  That was kind of my point of the post.  These noticed activities took place while she had company and wasn't alone (and was "happy", whether it was me, or me and her kids.  These things took place a lot, even for the first 6-8 months that were the honeymoon and no real problems had occurred.  

That's interesting.  Borderlines are constantly dealing with the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment, trying to straddle the fence between them best they can, using whatever tools that work; my ex used to use sex for that, she'd zone out and go to another universe, that and ice cream, a fat and sugar soother, and it makes sense that music and cleaning could be used the same way.

Of course the solution would be to have an open, honest conversation about whatever, in an environment of mutual trust, respect and vulnerability; that was never the case in my relationship, for my reasons as well as hers, how about you drained?

[Hopefulgirl]

My BPD friend ALWAYS has to have music on and very loud when he is allowed to . I know that a lot of men are into music like that so I didn't know if it was a BPD trait or not.

He cleans all the time. Told me once he was loosing respect for me because I didnt vaccuum enough.  Can't leave his house unless he spends three days cleaning beforehand.

[drained1996]

heeltoheal

Yes my ex and I were able to discuss the music issue.  At the time we both knew she was using it as a coping mechanism... .we just didn't know what she was coping for.  Later, after the BPD diagnosis, when she did use music to cope, she would know I knew what was going on... .which only made her feel worse.

The cleaning, not really discussed... .and I didn't mind the extra cleanliness!

Hopeful,

I don't view either of these as BPD traits, only as traits that could point to the possibility of PD issues.  Any non that would've been close enough... .obviously only me at the time, would have noticed the excessiveness of these tendencies as not "normal"

And C Stein, I agree about nobody passing the flag test if we define too many.  I'm just looking outside the box of normal BPD red flags... .not really trying to add any to define... .just making sense of what my journey was like.

[HurtinNW]

In hindsight, I can see that my ex also had tons of distracting behaviors. I remember finding it odd that he would sit and clip recipes and articles from magazines for hours. Rome could have been burning and he was clipping articles. Or he would spend hours and hours cataloguing every single song in his vast music collection.

Now I can see he was making his world small, containing his own huge fears and inner pain by focusing on these carefully orchestrated tasks.

We all do that, I think. But for my ex the degree of the behaviors are insight into his low threshold. It helps me realize how overwhelmed he must have been at stuff I find completely doable. I can then see my role in the relationship. I would get frustrated, for instance, at how he didn't get things done. I didn't see how he would waste a day on these weird tasks when he could have been helping me, or playing with my kids, or getting a job. I didn't see that those behaviors were windows into his soul. He was completely overwhelmed by life and completely blind to his own coping mechanisms.

I'm starting to have some compassion for him now. He isn't a functioning, happy person. It's pretty sad.

Drained, do you think you can find a way to balance introspections about these smaller red flags with knowledge they may not be red flags in someone else? I think about that stuff as well. I don't want to assume every little thing is a red flag!

[SoMadSoSad]

In hindsight, I can see that my ex also had tons of distracting behaviors. I remember finding it odd that he would sit and clip recipes and articles from magazines for hours. Rome could have been burning and he was clipping articles. Or he would spend hours and hours cataloguing every single song in his vast music collection.

LMFAO. My ex is also very good at running away from her problems. Sometimes she would literally run away from an undesirable situation.

[drained1996]

HurtinNW

Thank you for your reply!  I firmly believe I will be fine in separating what truly is a red flag and what isn't in the future.  I've been through this twice now... .not knowing what it was the first time, and have spent ample time on myself, and recognizing the role I played and the mistakes I've made.  I didn't start this as a way to add to the major red flag list.  Simply to understand some things that did make me step back in my journey and see other people's experiences with similar situations.  These were subtle things, that I actually did notice, when I'd simply give it a slide when a great big one would smack me in the face! 

[HurtinNW]

HurtinNW

Thank you for your reply!  I firmly believe I will be fine in separating what truly is a red flag and what isn't in the future.  I've been through this twice now... .not knowing what it was the first time, and have spent ample time on myself, and recognizing the role I played and the mistakes I've made.  I didn't start this as a way to add to the major red flag list.  Simply to understand some things that did make me step back in my journey and see other people's experiences with similar situations.  These were subtle things, that I actually did notice, when I'd simply give it a slide when a great big one would smack me in the face! 

Gotcha! What I am noticing about myself is I did minimize and dismiss behaviors I should have found troubling... .if my self-esteem had been better, and I wasn't so co-dependent. Working on that has really helped me!

I also noticed those subtle things, but didn't value my own feelings and opinions enough to listen to that inner voice.   

[Larmoyant]

I’m not sure if this would constitute a red flag, but it will be if I meet another man who does it! My ex, from the very beginning, used to send me links to love songs, not ‘happy, I’ve met the love of my life love songs’, but sad ones, all about people breaking up. It was as if he was planning/predicting our demise as a couple from the word go. They’ve all come true now!

[steelwork]

I’m not sure if this would constitute a red flag, but it will be if I meet another man who does it! My ex, from the very beginning, used to send me links to love songs, not ‘happy, I’ve met the love of my life love songs’, but sad ones, all about people breaking up. It was as if he was planning/predicting our demise as a couple from the word go. They’ve all come true now!

Oh wow. Ding ding ding, yeah, it was all breaking up songs from the get-go!

[drained1996]

see what I mean... .I'm thinking there are subtleties that are not the disorder itself, but may point directly to the disorderd.  Of course they would not be steadfast red flags if not followed up by those we now see as obvious.  But in hindsight, these are the subtle clues I picked up on and called out first... .what do you all remember as your first hints of abnormal?

[C.Stein]

I have two levels of flags ... .the red deal breakers and the yellow warnings.  Yellow flags can become red flags, but typically are just things that are manageable and/or can be compromised on.  No one is perfect ... .and perhaps someone that appears to be "perfect" might be cause to raise a red flag. 

I personally feel uncomfortable micro-analyzing every single little behavior I see and trying to fit it in a PD box.  It is a dangerous game to play, especially when we don't look at our own behavior with as critical an eye.  Something to consider.   

[drained1996]

Very good point C Stein, I guess I should have referred to them as yellow flags!  And yes, the yellow flags I saw were certainly manageable, and not directly PD traits.  Helps to bounce things off of people and get a different perspective! 

[C.Stein]

I guess I should have referred to them as yellow flags!  And yes, the yellow flags I saw were certainly manageable, and not directly PD traits.

Might be worth noting I also look at the flags like they are on a flag poll.  The more serious the flag (be it yellow or red) the closer it gets to the top of the flag poll.  Once a red flag hits the top of the poll it is time for decisions to be made.  When a red flag hits that level for me it either means a boundary has been violated or has a high potential of violating a boundary.  This is where we need to take a big step back, outside the emotions, and try to look at the relationship with honest reflection and objectivity. 

That all said I am one that prefers to see the good within people and their potential for growth.  I don't have a problem with letting a red flag sit half mast as long as it is being taken down not raised higher.  My prolonged mistake with my ex is I allowed several red flags to be raised higher and higher, yet I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt, kept believing in her at the cost of my own emotional well being. 

The other noteworthy mistake was she flew several red flags that hit the top of the flag poll for me within the first week of our relationship.  I let them pass after bringing them up with her but in retrospect I should have put a stop to anything romantic that was beginning to happen.  This is an issue within myself that I need to address as it allowed me to get into and continue with a relationship that was unhealthy and eventually destroyed me. 

This isn't by any means all the mistakes I made but they are the ones that stand out the most when I think of the "flags".

[drained1996]

I used a nautical version for my analogy on how "big" a red flag is or was.  Imagine a big flag flying in a hurricane... .that would be at the top of your flag pole.  The little yellow flags I mentioned were really barely lolling about with little breeze which would be the bottom of your flag pole. 

Like you I've analyzed my part in missing or rather ignoring those flags that would be at the top of your flag pole and have been working my way down to the bottom.  You are correct as it is up to us to stick up for ourselves and take a step back and logically analyze when indeed we are confronted with such red flags. 

I made my mistakes because like you I prefer to see the good in people.  I had no personal knowledge or experience with PD's.  Now, armored with knowledge and experience, I feel more than fairly confident in myself and my ability to avoid such mistakes in the future.  Sure, I have times of falling back a little, some depression... .I am alone... .and I am after all a BPD survivor.

[fromheeltoheal]

You are correct as it is up to us to stick up for ourselves and take a step back and logically analyze when indeed we are confronted with such red flags. 

I made my mistakes because like you I prefer to see the good in people.  I had no personal knowledge or experience with PD's. 

Yes, that was the first experience with a personality disorder for many of us, myself included, and going into it assuming someone is like most people we know, and looking for the good, ends up with a major wake-up call, which is the good news in that we are more self-aware and aware of what's up with others as a result, yes?  I've labeled it the death of naivety, a good thing, long time coming.

Now, armored with knowledge and experience, I feel more than fairly confident in myself and my ability to avoid such mistakes in the future. 

Nice!  And not only avoid them, but populate our lives with empowering people, the upside of that awareness.  And the flag metaphor, while handy when talking about borderlines and our detachment, has limitations, sort of black and white, which is why you guys are adding more colors.  Everyone we will ever know is a collection of traits we like and traits we don't, it's about accepting each other warts and all, and sometimes there are dealbreakers, something a person does or says, or just who they are, that is completely unacceptable and they need to get out of our lives.  And of course my ex did many of those, yet I stayed, wake-up call needed and it took a while, but the challenge moving forward is to enforce good boundaries while deciding to accept the package of traits that is someone in our lives, deciding what's a dealbreaker and what isn't, and acting accordingly.   

[drained1996]

heeltoheal,

I've experienced the cutting out of lots of what my T would consider as "deadwood" in my life the last year and a half.  That means people I've been close to, that I really don't need to waste effort on in life.  I attribute my ability to recognize those situations... .and most of all deal with them because of my experience with exBPD, and the subsequent knowledge gained through my therapy.  I've let go of a best friend alcoholic.  I've let go of a couple... .the husband I've known all my life, I've let go of a close friend (I would have been HIS best friend).  None of them are painted black in my world, I'm here if they choose to seek me out.  But I'm done fixing, excusing, and otherwise pouring out my love, to get nothing but grief in return.  All that is probably out of proportion from what most of us experience in that short amount of time, but... .my experience with exBPD and my therapy made me draw boundaries to protect myself.  And I did, and I'm fine with that.  I've added new friends who may fill those voids in the future, but those are yet to be determined.  Point being, I've learned through all this to learn to take care of me, and I'm the only one who is in charge of that task.  This board has also helped me tremendously over time.  A wonderful tool you have that so many of us need.

C Stein, thank you for the back and forth on this, I respect your thought process and appreciate your insight.