fear of emptiness

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello and great site. Hope I’ve got the correct forum……...

Think I’ve been doing quite well, but just recently I seem to have lost traction and I would love some help on things (codependency perhaps), so here is my story.

Married 6 years to uB/NPDW,  D7, chaos from wedding night onwards. 3 years ago I picked up on PDs which partly explains the chaos the abuse and unhappy union. These last 3 years I have spent much of the time trying to understand my couple, doing a lot of reading, and finding it very easy to put much of the responsibility on the PD. I am clear (I like to think) about the state, limits and future (rather lack of) of our relationship and I want out.

Last Nov. I said I wanted a divorce but have not been able to implement it (see below). I started wondering why not. (W said we could work things, and we still live together).

A few months ago I attended a weekend course for healing the wounds of childhood, and I began to understand my role in my couple, the codependant. From your own pages I read symptoms of codependency by Danial Harkness……... intense and unstable interpersonal relationships, inability to tolerate being alone, accompanied by frantic efforts to avoid being alone, chronic feelings of boredom and emptiness. Yes, yes yes and yes. And subordination of one’s own needs.

I was recently reading a diary I kept during my 20s, (now in my 50s). All of these traits, severe emptiness and boredom and constantly seeking company etc were clearly described by me about me. Just thought it was part of growing up.

So here is my catch 22,  I realise leaving a dysfunctional marriage will only land me back in the space of emptiness and loneliness I desperately sought to leave. And that I think is what is stopping me…….?

Not only that but I cycle through leaving and staying every couple of days….things  go smoothly I think I can stay (not because I value the relationship, but because it avoids having to deal with future emptiness)….things gets agitated, I want out.

I have just received a book, Boundaries in Marriage Cloud & Townsend, and according to Ross Rosenberg, the man behind the the Human Magnet Syndrome, getting boundaries in place is the starting point for dismantling codependency.

So if there is any help out there for people like me who fear the rupture, I would really appreciate your pointers and comments.

[earlgrey]

Hello and great site. Hope I’ve got the correct forum……...

Think I’ve been doing quite well, but just recently I seem to have lost traction and I would love some help on things (codependency perhaps), so here is my story.

Married 6 years to uB/NPDW,  D7, chaos from wedding night onwards. 3 years ago I picked up on PDs which partly explains the chaos the abuse and unhappy union. These last 3 years I have spent much of the time trying to understand my couple, doing a lot of reading, and finding it very easy to put much of the responsibility on the PD. I am clear (I like to think) about the state, limits and future (rather lack of) of our relationship and I want out.

Last Nov. I said I wanted a divorce but have not been able to implement it (see below). I started wondering why not. (W said we could work things, and we still live together).

A few months ago I attended a weekend course for healing the wounds of childhood, and I began to understand my role in my couple, the codependant. From your own pages I read symptoms of codependency by Danial Harkness……... intense and unstable interpersonal relationships, inability to tolerate being alone, accompanied by frantic efforts to avoid being alone, chronic feelings of boredom and emptiness. Yes, yes yes and yes. And subordination of one’s own needs.

I was recently reading a diary I kept during my 20s, (now in my 50s). All of these traits, severe emptiness and boredom and constantly seeking company etc were clearly described by me about me. Just thought it was part of growing up.

So here is my catch 22,  I realise leaving a dysfunctional marriage will only land me back in the space of emptiness and loneliness I desperately sought to leave. And that I think is what is stopping me…….?

Not only that but I cycle through leaving and staying every couple of days….things  go smoothly I think I can stay (not because I value the relationship, but because it avoids having to deal with future emptiness)….things gets agitated, I want out.

I have just received a book, Boundaries in Marriage Cloud & Townsend, and according to Ross Rosenberg, the man behind the the Human Magnet Syndrome, getting boundaries in place is the starting point for dismantling codependency.

So if there is any help out there for people like me who fear the rupture, I would really appreciate your pointers and comments.

[C.Stein]

Hello  ,

It seems you are straddling the fence.  Your codependency pulls you back to the relationship side, your rational/logical mind pulls you to the other side.  It is a tough place to be in, that internal tug of war tears you up, keeps you in a state of perpetual indecisiveness and confusion.

I think it is good you have the self-awareness to see and address your codependency.   Looking at ourselves honestly and objectively is one of the most difficult things a person can do.  I think one of the reasons why some people cannot tolerate being alone is because they are uncomfortable with themselves and their own thoughts.  To be comfortable being alone you have to be comfortable being with yourself and when you are then you aren't really alone. 

Do you think dealing with your codependency could perhaps put you in a place where you might be able to salvage the marriage?  Certainly it needs to be addressed either way as it will benefit you regardless of what side of the fence you land on.

[earlgrey]

Hello  ,


Do you think dealing with your codependency could perhaps put you in a place where you might be able to salvage the marriage?  Certainly it needs to be addressed either way as it will benefit you regardless of what side of the fence you land on.

Dealing with CoD. is taking the form of creating boundaries, and this is totally new for my W. (and for me!) I have to say they (the boundaries) are not appreciated and I am now the most selfish person in the world according to W. but I am happy with it, and the sense of powerlessness and victim stuff that I have been living with for ages just evaporates.

Whether this gives rize to a renewed r/s or a clear exit route is unclear today.

[C.Stein]

Hello  ,


Do you think dealing with your codependency could perhaps put you in a place where you might be able to salvage the marriage?  Certainly it needs to be addressed either way as it will benefit you regardless of what side of the fence you land on.

Dealing with CoD. is taking the form of creating boundaries, and this is totally new for my W. (and for me!) I have to say they (the boundaries) are not appreciated and I am now the most selfish person in the world according to W. but I am happy with it, and the sense of powerlessness and victim stuff that I have been living with for ages just evaporates.

Whether this gives rize to a renewed r/s or a clear exit route is unclear today.

I moved you to the undecided forum as you will get more appropriate responses to your particular situation.

Establishing boundaries after the fact will generate a lot of discord in the beginning, but if you stick with it, find ways to enforce those boundaries in a healthy fashion, the discord may lessen and you might find the relationship more manageable.  

To that end I encourage you to read, read, read.  A good place to start is with Boundaries and Validation.  

Please feel comfortable asking any questions you might have and sharing more of your story.  It helps to write it all down and get feed back from people who are in similar situations as yourself.  

[earlgrey]

thanks for your welcome and happy to find the right forum.

Will add some more detail shortly.

[earlgrey]

Maybe it is not just fear.

Maybe I like it here?

In the early days of marriage and full on fights and abuse and put downs I was completely lost and unhappy. Slowly as things became clearer, and the dynamics understood, the fights and the abuse have reduced to very minimal levels….so perhaps things are OK….?

There is though lingering damage from the abuse which leaves traces, does one move on and just put it down as collateral damage, friendly fire?

While our r/s has steadied, there is also the ongoing abuse mum to kids, a cocktail of control, manipulation and enmeshment. This is something I am very concerned about, but how do you get to apply boundaries on this ‘third party’ action? What are techniques for sorting things out here?

On another aspect of B/NPD, W has plenty of the traits when she is with her first line of family (ie H and kids), but towards her parents she is full on codependant, and her ability to please and look after them is in real contrast to her home personality.  Is this all part of the label?

[C.Stein]

Maybe it is not just fear.

Maybe I like it here?

In the early days of marriage and full on fights and abuse and put downs I was completely lost and unhappy. Slowly as things became clearer, and the dynamics understood, the fights and the abuse have reduced to very minimal levels….so perhaps things are OK….?

There is though lingering damage from the abuse which leaves traces, does one move on and just put it down as collateral damage, friendly fire?

If you want to move forward you will have to let go of the past.  Easier said than done, especially if your wife isn't on the same page.

While our r/s has steadied, there is also the ongoing abuse mum to kids, a cocktail of control, manipulation and enmeshment. This is something I am very concerned about, but how do you get to apply boundaries on this ‘third party’ action? What are techniques for sorting things out here?

This is a difficult issue and I agree one that needs to be addressed.  First and foremost you are not a third party.  Parenting is the responsibility of both partners and again you need to be on the same page.  Can you identify these negative behaviors and have an honest and productive conversation with your wife about them?  You may very well have to set boundaries for you children and enforce them.   You might want to open a thread on the Improving Board to address this issue regardless of what choice you make with respect to the relationship.

On another aspect of B/NPD, W has plenty of the traits when she is with her first line of family (ie H and kids), but towards her parents she is full on codependant, and her ability to please and look after them is in real contrast to her home personality.  Is this all part of the label?

This could and probably does play a big part with respect to her BPD traits.  She will need to face and address this eventually if she is to understand and manage her BPD driven behavior within your marriage.  At a minimum a therapist with BPD experience would help immensely I would think.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey earlgrey,  What makes you think your W can fill the void of emptiness and loneliness that you experienced during your 20's?  I would suggest that your self-worth and value come from within, not from her.  Maybe you could work on self-love and self-acceptance, which I suspect could alleviate the inner emptiness.

LuckyJim

[Fie]

"I think one of the reasons why some people cannot tolerate being alone is because they are uncomfortable with themselves and their own thoughts."

This can definitely be true of course.

Another reason why some people cannot tolerate being  alone, is because they have this feeling of emptiness, because there was never a good bound with their parents. So in a way, they really are alone.

I used to have feelings like that. I f.e. stayed in relationships way too long out of  fear of being alone.

Over the years,  I have more or less solved this problem through meditation.  Maybe you want to explore  that at some time... .

[earlgrey]

Hey earlgrey,  What makes you think your W can fill the void of emptiness and loneliness that you experienced during your 20's?  I would suggest that your self-worth and value come from within, not from her.  Maybe you could work on self-love and self-acceptance, which I suspect could alleviate the inner emptiness.

LuckyJim

LJ very pertinent. In my 20s I met a girl who did actually suddenly solve my problems of loneliness. I though it was the real thing - I was on cloud 9. The r/s lasted about 8 weeks (honeymoon only no chaos)and the whole event during and after went into my diary. It became my benchmark for what a 'good' r/s should be. I searched to replicate the feelings and it took 30 years and I end up with pw uN/BPD. My hunch is the 1st girl was similarly wired! 

But the common thread is lack of self love which I'm working on.

Another reason why some people cannot tolerate being  alone, is because they have this feeling of emptiness, because there was never a good bound with their parents. So in a way, they really are alone.

I used to have feelings like that. I f.e. stayed in relationships way too long out of  fear of being alone.

Over the years,  I have more or less solved this problem through meditation.  Maybe you want to explore  that at some time... .

Yep I get this. never thought about mediation though... .

[Lucky Jim]

Hey earl, Now you can work on something more lasting than 8 weeks on Cloud Nine.  You are probably right that Girl #1 had similar qualities.  Once you see the pattern, it's possible to change it.  What you want to work towards, I suggest, is finding your happiness from within, rather than looking to another person to supply it, which is an unreliable source.  Great, glad you are working on self-love and acceptance, from which many positive benefits flow, in my view.  This may sound cheesy, but I actually look at myself in the mirror every morning and say "I love you; I accept you, just the way you are."  After a while, it starts to sink in!

LuckyJim

[earlgrey]

Jim thanks for your comments.

I would love to find my happiness from within - I am going to start looking, but it is a new concept for me. Any pointers.

Don't know if this is relevant, but I am good at finding happiness outside. In r/s gf/w get the works and that makes me feel good. I can be happy restoring old bikes, cars, houses, boats, but even so occupîed I am not complete.

I am still empty, kind of spiritually, emotionally... .?

[Lucky Jim]

I can be happy restoring old bikes, cars, houses, boats, but even so occupîed I am not complete.

Hey earl, You are on the right track, in my view, by pursuing your passion for restoring old bikes, cars, houses and boats.  Maybe you could expand this interest a little, in order to do more of it, or to do it better or in a different, new way that you find intriguing?  Which could lead to finding others who share your passion.

Don't get me wrong; I enjoy being in a r/s with my SO, but I don't need her to be happy.  Does that make sense?  It takes the pressure off the r/s, which in my view leads to a better, healthier r/s.

LuckyJim

[earlgrey]

I can be happy restoring old bikes, cars, houses, boats, but even so occupîed I am not complete.

Hey earl, You are on the right track, in my view, by pursuing your passion for restoring old bikes, cars, houses and boats.  Maybe you could expand this interest a little, in order to do more of it, or to do it better or in a different, new way that you find intriguing?  Which could lead to finding others who share your passion.

have done some great projects with some great pals, but I still hankered after big love interest. Some were single guys, and they didn't understand my 'obsession' with finding a meanigful r/s.

Concerning fixing boundaries, do I just do it, or do I need to explain what is going on to W.?

She finds my behavious aggressive. It is not, it is just a bit assertive, well big time assertive considering what she has been used to. Is there any benefit to explain my behaviour... .ie I am actually trying to make things better.

[Lucky Jim]

Frankly, I think actions speak louder than words, I think, so I suggest you just impose boundaries where needed.  I wouldn't get hung up on some long-winded explanation about why you need boundaries, because it's doubtful that she will understand or agree with you. 

LJ

[earlgrey]

... .because it's doubtful that she will understand or agree with you. 

LJ

Thats about the size of it.

I am working on boundary and validation stuff... .all so that I can try and improve a r/s with a pwN/BPD. Fine.

In my life I have probably managed to meet/greet/befriend/do business with/have fun with etc etc a LOT of people but with the one particular SO I have to go back to 'school' to learn how to get on.

I know it is my choice to stay and learn (yeah that's the difficult bit) but it all seems very strange.

It would also imply all the others r/s (romantic and otherwise) have nevertheless worked with an lesser skill set (on my side)... .

Which means what... .? Oooh, this is getting complicated.

Why put up with all this c#@p anyhow?

Yours confused.

[Lucky Jim]

Good Morning, earlgrey, As you are discovering, there are no quick fixes or easy answers.  BPD is incredibly complex.  Whether it's worth all the "c#@p" is something only you can decide.  You have an advantage, however, because you are aware of BPD and know what it, whereas many of us, including me, were just swinging in the dark for years.  I thought that maybe everyone's marriage was as bad as mine!  People mean well and recite a lot of cliches about marriage being hard work, but the reality is they don't know what it's like inside a BPD r/s, so what they say is mostly inapplicable to a BPD r/s, in my view.

LuckyJim

[Fie]

It would also imply all the others r/s (romantic and otherwise) have nevertheless worked with an lesser skill set (on my side)... .

Which means what... .? Oooh, this is getting complicated.

Why put up with all this c#@p anyhow?

If it means anything, I know how you feel. I have the same feeling towards my mother and my grandmother. They are the ones behaving abnormal, and yet I have to learn how to deal with that. It seems odd. Why don't they do the work, right ?  :-)

I thought that maybe everyone's marriage was as bad as mine!  People mean well and recite a lot of cliches about marriage being hard work, but the reality is they don't know what it's like inside a BPD r/s, so what they say is mostly inapplicable to a BPD r/s, in my view.

Also this sounds so familiar ... .

[earlgrey]

just tonight I was trying to explain that when she says mean things at me I feel hurt.

And I would like her to understand I'm hurting... .

What do I get as a reply... .a exasperated look and eye roll.

Happily her response no longer makes me mad.

So I say I cannot change the way you rabbit on (actually I said something non judgey) but I can change how I react... .in fact I am going to become proactive, and start doing things my way first... .

AND HOPEFULLY I WILL FIND STRENGHT AND GET OUT OF HERE... .

[Lucky Jim]

Hey earl, Don't hold your breath!  In general, those wBPD lack empathy for the Non, which is why she was rolling her eyes.  I can appreciate that you have expectations about a two-way street, but it doesn't work that way in a BPD r/s.

LJ

[SoMuchPain]

I would love to find my happiness from within - I am going to start looking, but it is a new concept for me. Any pointers.

Don't know if this is relevant, but I am good at finding happiness outside. In r/s gf/w get the works and that makes me feel good. I can be happy restoring old bikes, cars, houses, boats, but even so occupîed I am not complete.

I am still empty, kind of spiritually, emotionally... .?

I feel this EXACT same way.  Exactly.  I hear the concept of self-love, and it just seems to be something that I cannot grasp.  I KNOW this is why I've stayed far too long in relationships that did not serve me.

I recently actually walked away from someone that I loved for the first time in my life.  I know logically that this is a step towards self-love, but now I am where you fear to be: alone, feeling incomplete.  Luckily with my recent ex, I'm unsure which would be worse, being alone or being with her ... .she was that verbally abusive. 

Regardless, here I am, alone.  And I don't even know what to do next.

[earlgrey]

@somuchpain hi.

I believe co-dependence is the key (at least for me a non)

There is a lot of talk and stuff around here about codependence. I have finally come to realise that much of what it covers describes my r/s with others.

(I have spend 2+ yrs pointing a finger at my uB/NPD W and only recently started looking at me!)

Co-D is part of my thing, a huge part of my r/s, and basically what I understand it to mean is that I take my cue from others and ignore ME.

Slowly and I would say this is taking place now, I am beginning to realise I am here, and I am important too and my needs need attending to (that's my job  )

What i am getting the feeling for, is that when we are able to self-love, (and find happiness within) all (?) the bad dynamics we are living will become understandable and we will be able to bring about change.

With these changes, I feel sure other good things will happen... .all the things which have always seemed so strange and difficult.

We will not absorb all the cr@p that comes our way. We become 'stronger' and what seemed like impossible decisions become quite straighforward (because we are better at understanding what we want/need). All this new stuff is slowly forming in my head and instead of feeling lost and helpless I am finding strength and direction.

[earlgrey]

@somuchpain hi.



What i am getting the feeling for, is that when we are able to self-love, (and find happiness within) all (?) the bad dynamics we are living will become understandable and we will be able to bring about change.

With these changes, I feel sure other good things will happen... .all the things which have always seemed so strange and difficult.

We will not absorb all the cr@p that comes our way. We become 'stronger' and what seemed like impossible decisions become quite straighforward (because we are better at understanding what we want/need). All this new stuff is slowly forming in my head and instead of feeling lost and helpless I am finding strength and direction.

WOW this all seemed so clear and straightforward when I wrote it, but today is another day and I have lost my grasp on it.

Focusing on myself and MY needs.

Had a few triggers go off yesterday (S18 had a bad day - I feel it, strange conversation with a good friend, and wedding anniversary) and I feel all "codependenty" and hesitant again.

When things are 'good' I lose the Co-D way of looking at things and start heading in MY direction.

Is this all part of the healing process, seeing two ways ahead, and trying to stay focused ? Anyone been here?

[C.Stein]

Is this all part of the healing process, seeing two ways ahead, and trying to stay focused ? Anyone been here?

Absolutely been there.  There will be days that are good and you see things with clarity.  Other days you will be in the FOG, be it the one she created or your own.  I find it helps to find something that you can focus on that is persistent and consistent in time.  This is your anchor of sorts, something that keeps you grounded to the reality of the relationship.

[Fie]

Hello Earlgrey,

I  too have  experienced this  (and  I  still do). So don't be too hard on yourself. Everyone has good days, and lesser ones. Tomorrow is another day !

[earlgrey]

I find it helps to find something that you can focus on that is persistent and consistent in time.  This is your anchor of sorts, something that keeps you grounded to the reality of the relationship.

Hi CS - Can you give some examples, ideas for creating an anchor?

I've just had my bad dad weekend (see other thread) and go through a cycle of two steps forward one step back, which seems to happen regularly.

[C.Stein]

I find it helps to find something that you can focus on that is persistent and consistent in time.  This is your anchor of sorts, something that keeps you grounded to the reality of the relationship.

Hi CS - Can you give some examples, ideas for creating an anchor?

For me it is all about seeing reality vs. the fantasy.  When I find my anchor slipping and being pulled back into the FOG I remind myself of tangible things about my ex's behavior to bring me back to reality.  This is especially difficult for me because my ex is mostly a "waif" type and because much of the time she is a wonderful, loving and caring person who was just about everything I had ever wanted in a partner.  

The reality I have to remind myself of is in spite of this part of her, underneath it is the BPD that controls her in the most critical times and leads to behavior/actions that are hurtful and destructive at best, both to herself and to those who are emotionally close to her (me).  It is this, the reality of these behaviors and actions, which constitute the hook of the anchor, so to speak.