Please help me understand this conversation

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hey all, been a while since I've posted or even browsed the boards. It's been almost a year since my ex (whom my counselor believes may have BPD) and I split, and for a while there I was almost doing an okay job detaching. He was taking up less and less of my thoughts and our contact was light if anything. It was always so confusing after the break up how someone who seemed to hate me so much when he first cut contact with me would come back to talk, why someone who thought I was so toxic and abusive would reach out again after months of silence, but for whatever reason we would end up speaking occasionally. For about 6 months I would refuse to actually see him for fear of him really getting in my head again. He never talked about wanting to get back together, or wanting a relationship with me, but would talk about how much he missed kissing me and being with me physically. For whatever reason, a mix of lonliness and missing my old memories of him from the more pleasant "love bombing" stage, I started to tell myself that maybe we could be okay together. I gave in and spent time with him. He got everything he wanted from me and I was left feeling used, he wouldn't offer me any insight into where he was in his head, what he wanted from me, how he felt about me so we started fighting through text day in and day out. Eventually he let me know that that he still loves me and eventually wanted to be with me he just needed time that I wouldn't give to him by demanding answers. Now here is where I need some help, was I asking for too much or being unreasonable? He really wants me to believe I am toxic and unhealthy and he does nothing wrong, so I really need to hear some outside perspective.

We were in an argument the night before because I told him if he didn't want to talk about what was wrong or try to fix it, I didn't want to pretend everything was okay and keep talking as normal. I told him if he would rather walk out of my life than talk or resolve the issues between us, then that would be for the best. Anytime something happens between us, we aren't able to talk about it because even when I think I'm being un-accusatory and trying to tell him how I feel, he tells me that I'm trying to bring him down and trying to "destroy" him. It ended somehow in me flipping out and telling him I'm sorry for being so awful and ruining his life and if I made him so unhappy then he should forget me and go be happy. I told him I would never text him again and apologized, which he didn't accept. I was really having an emotional breakdown and just beating myself up with him over text because it became too overwhelming, he refused to take any accountability so I accepted it all and told him to go be happy without my abuse bringing him down. He works overnights so I woke up to a text that he sent at 5am that just said "I'm sorry."
 
I should have left well enough alone, but I wanted to know more. And if he was actually sorry for something, I didn't want to ignore him or give up on him. I texted him back around 8am, when he is usually home from work and up a few hours texting before he goes to bed and got no response. I tried again 2 hours later and still got nothing. Because being ignored drives me crazy I tried again 12 hours later, I text and ask if that was it, if he just wanted to say sorry than never speak again and he replied right away with a text that said just said "No". I'm going to just type out the conversation

Him: I'm sorry.
Me: What are you sorry for?
-2 hrs later-
Me: Well whatever that was for, I'm sure I would have forgiven you. I don't know if you wanted me to answer maybe it was your way of saying goodbye but I didn't want to ignore an apology so sorry if I ruined it.
-12 hours later-
Me: Is that it? Did you just apologize then block me or something.
Him: No
Me: Why were you ignoring me all day, when you weren't sleeping?
Him: I was sleeping
Me: From 6:30am until just now?
Him: Considering I was at work until 8:15, no. And I had trouble falling asleep. I only slept 4 hours and I have to stay up until midnight tomorrow.
Me: Okay. I'm going to block your number so I won't think about if you're ignoring me or not. Don't know why you said sorry this morning to get me hopeful than left me hanging all day.
Him: This is why its pointless to apologize to you. You take it as reason to block me.
Me: I take you ignoring my texts all day after as reason. It's easier this way then you don't have to worry about answering me.
Him: Excuse me? Did you not read what I said? I was trying to sleep.
Me: You said "I'm done with you." last night so be done with me. I'm sorry for being horrible to you but I can't handle it anymore.
Him: Thanks for just trying to ruin my last overnight! I can't feel good about anything, can I?
Me: You know me. I need a solid end point. If you say something like "I'm sorry" I'm going to be waiting all day trying to talk. You know me by now you know how I feel about being ignored.
Me: Wow no enjoy it! You're feeling good I'll never stand in the way of that again
Him: Sleeping doesn't equal ignoring. I don't know how you don't get that.
Him: Okay forget it go treat someone else like ___ an bring them down. I'm done with you.
Him: I'm done with you trying to do this to me.
Him: I'm really done with it.
Him: I'm not answering you again.
Him: I've had MORE than enough of this.
Him: Please just forget I ever existed.
Him: You clearly don't actually care about fixing anything. You only care about making me feel wrong for everything even if I literally did nothing.
Him: You don't feel okay unless I'm destroyed and that's always your goal. I'm not letting you anymore.
Me: Ok. I'll try to forget you exist. Sorry.
Him: No you're not. You do the same thing every time we talk. You're not sorry in the slightest.

I understand I shouldn't have jumped to telling him I'd just block him. But as soon as he sent the "No" I knew there was nothing more to the apology. I felt like it was just him sending me a mixed signal that he was going to deny me any answers to. I was frustrated that he slept for just four hours but ignored my texts all day. Frustrated about everything. I shouldn't have been aggressive/jumped to cutting contact but did he really do "literally nothing" here? Am I truly the antagonist here? It looks like I am. Please help. I'm so upset right now.

[samanthagrace]

Hey all, been a while since I've posted or even browsed the boards. It's been almost a year since my ex (whom my counselor believes may have BPD) and I split, and for a while there I was almost doing an okay job detaching. He was taking up less and less of my thoughts and our contact was light if anything. It was always so confusing after the break up how someone who seemed to hate me so much when he first cut contact with me would come back to talk, why someone who thought I was so toxic and abusive would reach out again after months of silence, but for whatever reason we would end up speaking occasionally. For about 6 months I would refuse to actually see him for fear of him really getting in my head again. He never talked about wanting to get back together, or wanting a relationship with me, but would talk about how much he missed kissing me and being with me physically. For whatever reason, a mix of lonliness and missing my old memories of him from the more pleasant "love bombing" stage, I started to tell myself that maybe we could be okay together. I gave in and spent time with him. He got everything he wanted from me and I was left feeling used, he wouldn't offer me any insight into where he was in his head, what he wanted from me, how he felt about me so we started fighting through text day in and day out. Eventually he let me know that that he still loves me and eventually wanted to be with me he just needed time that I wouldn't give to him by demanding answers. Now here is where I need some help, was I asking for too much or being unreasonable? He really wants me to believe I am toxic and unhealthy and he does nothing wrong, so I really need to hear some outside perspective.

We were in an argument the night before because I told him if he didn't want to talk about what was wrong or try to fix it, I didn't want to pretend everything was okay and keep talking as normal. I told him if he would rather walk out of my life than talk or resolve the issues between us, then that would be for the best. Anytime something happens between us, we aren't able to talk about it because even when I think I'm being un-accusatory and trying to tell him how I feel, he tells me that I'm trying to bring him down and trying to "destroy" him. It ended somehow in me flipping out and telling him I'm sorry for being so awful and ruining his life and if I made him so unhappy then he should forget me and go be happy. I told him I would never text him again and apologized, which he didn't accept. I was really having an emotional breakdown and just beating myself up with him over text because it became too overwhelming, he refused to take any accountability so I accepted it all and told him to go be happy without my abuse bringing him down. He works overnights so I woke up to a text that he sent at 5am that just said "I'm sorry."
 
I should have left well enough alone, but I wanted to know more. And if he was actually sorry for something, I didn't want to ignore him or give up on him. I texted him back around 8am, when he is usually home from work and up a few hours texting before he goes to bed and got no response. I tried again 2 hours later and still got nothing. Because being ignored drives me crazy I tried again 12 hours later, I text and ask if that was it, if he just wanted to say sorry than never speak again and he replied right away with a text that said just said "No". I'm going to just type out the conversation

Him: I'm sorry.
Me: What are you sorry for?
-2 hrs later-
Me: Well whatever that was for, I'm sure I would have forgiven you. I don't know if you wanted me to answer maybe it was your way of saying goodbye but I didn't want to ignore an apology so sorry if I ruined it.
-12 hours later-
Me: Is that it? Did you just apologize then block me or something.
Him: No
Me: Why were you ignoring me all day, when you weren't sleeping?
Him: I was sleeping
Me: From 6:30am until just now?
Him: Considering I was at work until 8:15, no. And I had trouble falling asleep. I only slept 4 hours and I have to stay up until midnight tomorrow.
Me: Okay. I'm going to block your number so I won't think about if you're ignoring me or not. Don't know why you said sorry this morning to get me hopeful than left me hanging all day.
Him: This is why its pointless to apologize to you. You take it as reason to block me.
Me: I take you ignoring my texts all day after as reason. It's easier this way then you don't have to worry about answering me.
Him: Excuse me? Did you not read what I said? I was trying to sleep.
Me: You said "I'm done with you." last night so be done with me. I'm sorry for being horrible to you but I can't handle it anymore.
Him: Thanks for just trying to ruin my last overnight! I can't feel good about anything, can I?
Me: You know me. I need a solid end point. If you say something like "I'm sorry" I'm going to be waiting all day trying to talk. You know me by now you know how I feel about being ignored.
Me: Wow no enjoy it! You're feeling good I'll never stand in the way of that again
Him: Sleeping doesn't equal ignoring. I don't know how you don't get that.
Him: Okay forget it go treat someone else like ___ an bring them down. I'm done with you.
Him: I'm done with you trying to do this to me.
Him: I'm really done with it.
Him: I'm not answering you again.
Him: I've had MORE than enough of this.
Him: Please just forget I ever existed.
Him: You clearly don't actually care about fixing anything. You only care about making me feel wrong for everything even if I literally did nothing.
Him: You don't feel okay unless I'm destroyed and that's always your goal. I'm not letting you anymore.
Me: Ok. I'll try to forget you exist. Sorry.
Him: No you're not. You do the same thing every time we talk. You're not sorry in the slightest.

I understand I shouldn't have jumped to telling him I'd just block him. But as soon as he sent the "No" I knew there was nothing more to the apology. I felt like it was just him sending me a mixed signal that he was going to deny me any answers to. I was frustrated that he slept for just four hours but ignored my texts all day. Frustrated about everything. I shouldn't have been aggressive/jumped to cutting contact but did he really do "literally nothing" here? Am I truly the antagonist here? It looks like I am. Please help. I'm so upset right now.

[steelwork]

I will take a stab at it.

Him: I'm sorry.
Me: What are you sorry for?
-2 hrs later-

-- Guessing he doesn't know what he's sorry for. He's feeling overwhelmed.

Me: Well whatever that was for, I'm sure I would have forgiven you. I don't know if you wanted me to answer maybe it was your way of saying goodbye but I didn't want to ignore an apology so sorry if I ruined it.
-12 hours later-
Me: Is that it? Did you just apologize then block me or something.
Him: No
Me: Why were you ignoring me all day, when you weren't sleeping?
Him: I was sleeping
Me: From 6:30am until just now?
Him: Considering I was at work until 8:15, no. And I had trouble falling asleep. I only slept 4 hours and I have to stay up until midnight tomorrow.

This might mean he just woke up. It might mean he's been up for a while but is still feeling overwhelmed (though less so). Waiting to see, perhaps, if you will reject him for his avoidance.

Me: Okay. I'm going to block your number so I won't think about if you're ignoring me or not. Don't know why you said sorry this morning to get me hopeful than left me hanging all day.

This could be interpreted as rejecting him. He might be feeling intensely pressured. From here out, the conversation just seems to spiral out of control, with neither of you acknowledging the subtext of the other's behavior.

Now it becomes about "you always do this"--meaning that longstanding patterns are the issue.


Him: This is why its pointless to apologize to you. You take it as reason to block me.
Me: I take you ignoring my texts all day after as reason. It's easier this way then you don't have to worry about answering me.
Him: Excuse me? Did you not read what I said? I was trying to sleep.
Me: You said "I'm done with you." last night so be done with me. I'm sorry for being horrible to you but I can't handle it anymore.

etc.


Him: Thanks for just trying to ruin my last overnight! I can't feel good about anything, can I?
Me: You know me. I need a solid end point. If you say something like "I'm sorry" I'm going to be waiting all day trying to talk. You know me by now you know how I feel about being ignored.
Me: Wow no enjoy it! You're feeling good I'll never stand in the way of that again

Sarcasm. Never helps.

Him: Sleeping doesn't equal ignoring. I don't know how you don't get that.

He's hiding behind the misunderstanding and avoiding your attempt to talk about what is bothering you, because he's still in retreat mode.

Him: Okay forget it go treat someone else like ___ an bring them down. I'm done with you.
Him: I'm done with you trying to do this to me.
Him: I'm really done with it.
Him: I'm not answering you again.
Him: I've had MORE than enough of this.
Him: Please just forget I ever existed.
Him: You clearly don't actually care about fixing anything. You only care about making me feel wrong for everything even if I literally did nothing.
Him: You don't feel okay unless I'm destroyed and that's always your goal. I'm not letting you anymore.
Me: Ok. I'll try to forget you exist. Sorry.
Him: No you're not. You do the same thing every time we talk. You're not sorry in the slightest.

You're both angry and frustrated.

That's my quick take on the conversation.

The big picture is:

Do you think these poor communication dynamics can be overcome? Do you see a path to having the relationship you want with him? If not, are you willing to accept the one you have?

[samanthagrace]

The big picture is:

Do you think these poor communication dynamics can be overcome? Do you see a path to having the relationship you want with him? If not, are you willing to accept the one you have?

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond and share insight. I believe your interpretation of the conversation is accurate. This is how every conversation goes unless I fall down at his feet and accept what I get. I'm not willing to accept this kind of communication but no matter how I try to change how I'm coming off, no matter how careful I'm trying to be, if I tell him I'm unhappy with something that happened between us he takes it as me telling him he is a bad person, me trying to "destroy" him. I guess I just need to know if what I want is unreasonable. If expecting a response is unreasonable. Am I abusive and him going off on me is warranted?

[steelwork]

You are not being abusive. He's responding from a defensive position, and maybe he feels you're being abusive--or maybe it's a way of getting the upper hand for him--or staking out his territory as the victim so he will have breathing room to avoid.

Your quick pivot to saying you were going to block him probably felt like abandonment.

You used sarcasm in a heated conversation. Not a good idea.

This is a highly sensitive, reactive person. "Emotional sunburn" is a term I've heard used.

I see two people with a lot of history, on tenterhooks with each other. Nothing that could not be overcome with work and humility on both sides in a normal relationship.

[samanthagrace]

I see two people with a lot of history, on tenterhooks with each other. Nothing that could not be overcome with work and humility on both sides in a normal relationship.

See, this is what keeps me hanging on. I feel like this is a big misunderstanding, every single fight we have I feel we could resolve if we could just talk to each other! I am guilty of being defensive too and I have tried so many times to be open and try to work through it and lay down my defenses but, unless I take full accountability for our issues, I can't get him to talk to me. And then I think that, while I'm more than willing to own up to my mistakes and do what I have to do to make them right, and make him feel secure with me, if he can't apologize for his part or work on changing his behavior, then what's the point of the relationship? I feel like this is how it falls apart. We come back together with this unspoken agreement that I will react to things better, but he is not going to acknowledge or alter the behaviors that I'm reacting too. When I realize I can't ignore feeling unacknowledged or disrespected, I try to create a dialogue and I'm told I "do this every time", "won't let the past go" and "just want him destroyed" so I fight to assure him I just want us to understand each other so we can fix things and don't mean to hurt him. The most frustrating thing he tells me is that I never wanted to fix things, only sabotage them. My idea of fixing things is talking them through, compromising, validating each other's feelings and working to form a relationship that works for both of us. His is ignoring everything, me never bringing up any issues that make him feel like he is a bad person, and pretending like there isn't a giant resentment elephant in the room with us.

Maybe my biggest problem is that I don't fully believe or accept that this can't be a "normal" relationship. I am not even convinced he has BPD and have asked my counselor a number of times if she is sure she doesn't think I am the one with a PD.

I really appreciate your time, your ear, and your input.

[once removed]

hi samanthagrace,

if youre not done, or not sure if youre done, i encourage you to read and post on the Improving board, and learn the tools, and the communication techniques. there are no guarantees, but you can know you gave things your best shot.

[patientandclear]

As someone with similar impulses I can say that the compulsive need to talk things through right away is often not going to fit well with someone wBPD, who may need lots of time and space to process, especially if HE is trying not to react impulsively. People who go through DBT are taught among other things to take extra time, to check whether their feelings match the facts, to do a number of time consuming exercises to figure out whether their impulsive reaction is really a wise choice. If we're sitting on the other side of a phone reading any delay as not caring or ignoring, we're working against the time and space needed for them to show up responsibly in the relationship. Even if he was not asleep, taking time to respond to those texts was not the same as devaluing you or what you were saying.

I see you in that conversation coming from a place of defending against anticipated hurt. It's hard to avoid that when you've been hurt in the past, but it doesn't make for good communication dynamics going forward.

Agree with the suggestion of seeking help from the Improving board on these issues.

[samanthagrace]

hi samanthagrace,

if youre not done, or not sure if youre done, i encourage you to read and post on the Improving board, and learn the tools, and the communication techniques. there are no guarantees, but you can know you gave things your best shot.

Thank you for your input. I don't think I am unsure about wanting to be done, I think I just needed someone to reassure me that the behavior is not normal, and to give me insight on whether or not I was abusive or unreasonable. It helps me with detaching if I don't carry all this uncertainty as to whether or not it's normal. I want as much insight into my part in things as I can have. I don't know if I'm blaming myself too much or not enough. I just need validation that this relationship is not normal. That it can't be normal.

[steelwork]

I want as much insight into my part in things as I can have.

samanthagrace, what is your feeling about your part in that conversation?

[samanthagrace]

I want as much insight into my part in things as I can have.

samanthagrace, what is your feeling about your part in that conversation?

I don't think I was out to destroy him like he claims but I think I definitely was immature, and speaking from a frustrated place and I may have been abusive. I wanted him to talk to me but because I was already on edge about him ignoring me and because our conversations have always gone this way I set it up to fail to match my expectation maybe. I shouldn't have jumped to saying I was going to block him.I shouldn't have asked why he didn't answer maybe I should have just asked if he needed space or longer to come up with what he was sorry for. I think I handled it wrong and I was immature however I also believe I could have handled this with the most care possible and I wouldn't have gotten what I wanted from him.

I don't think he had an answer for me because I don't think he was sorry. I wonder if I was dealing with someone more stable if the conversation would have went that way. This is my first relationship I'm relatively young and still kind of inexperienced interpersonally.

[steelwork]

Nice, samanthagrace. Good work!

I wonder if I was dealing with someone more stable if the conversation would have went that way. This is my first relationship I'm relatively young and still kind of inexperienced interpersonally.

Any intimate relationship is going to have its rocky moments. Every one of us is capable of going off the rails occasionally with the people we love. Conflict is unavoidable, but it matters a lot how it's handled.

Maturity involves righting the ship while it's going off course whenever possible, showing compassion and self-reflection, and working to improve things. Immaturity involves finger-pointing, evading, and doubling down on self-justifications.

Ideally, we learn something in every relationship that we can carry over into others--with lovers, friends, co-workers, and even strangers.

[once removed]

This is my first relationship I'm relatively young and still kind of inexperienced interpersonally.

the lessons and communication tools on the Improving board dont just work with people with BPD. youll go from inexperienced to way ahead of the game