Maintaining Financial Boundaries

[Inquisitive1]

My dBPD wife and I have agreed that it's a priority to pay off our debt and improve our financial situation. I make good money and we can live a comfortable life if we manage our finances.

Recently, my wife has been pursuing two different purchases which I cannot approve.
1) Getting a third dog: A dog is a huge commitment of personal time and finances. It makes no sense to spend money on a third dog that could go toward reducing our debt. Not to mention ongoing dog-related expenses.
2) Take a second mortgage to renovate the house. She's been watching a lot of home improvement shows. She watches ALOT of TV. She wants to a variety of renovations. Our cash flow is poor, I frequently have to juggle things to pay the mortgage. If we're going to refinance, it should be all about reducing our monthly expenses.

For a while it worked when I told her I wanted to take care of her. The I was trying to position us to be more financially secure. But that seems to have worn off.
 

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Inquisitive1]

I talk to myself all the time, so it's NOT weird to respond to my own posts. Seriously, this is like journaling, helping me organize my thoughts.

I started looking over the Workshops and realized I've been doing a bunch of JADE'ing--Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain--when we start to argue about the third dog or the renovations. The following questions in italics are straight out of the JADE workshop.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0
My responses follow in bold text.

Have you ever been able to get her to agree with you when you Justify yourself? No.
When you Defend yourself, does she ever accept what you say as the truth? NO.
How about when you Explain yourself? Does that ever calm her down? NO!
Think about it - how's JADE'ing been working out for you? HORRIBLY!

Reading this gave me a smile, because it captured the futility of the JADE'ing approach I've been using and it gave me hope.
 
To describe my situation a bit more, I've been sticking to my financial boundaries. I've mentioned that I'm not willing to stay in the relationship if we don't get/keep  our money in line. I mentioned this earlier in the summer when she went pretty far down the road of getting a new dog. And I seriously was considering leaving if she got one.

More recently, she's talk about renovating the house. When I tell her I'm not willing to take on more debt to do that, she gets angry, accuses me of being controlling, and says she can't wait forever to do this. She even mentioned leaving me if I don't approve of this. In response I JADE'd--trying to explain that I was saying no to look out for our financial future.

I think I need to come at this trying SET. Support--I know you want to renovate, I'd like to too. Empathy--I know it's frustrating to have to wait. Truth--we don't have the money now for major renovations, but we can make plans and do some smaller things to move us in that direction.

What do y'all think of that approach?

[SettingBorders]

I think I need to come at this trying SET. Support--I know you want to renovate, I'd like to too. Empathy--I know it's frustrating to have to wait. Truth--we don't have the money now for major renovations, but we can make plans and do some smaller things to move us in that direction.

What do y'all think of that approach?

Sounds awful! 
Maybe that way you could convince her to put a small amount of money aside for these purposes over a period of 6-24 months, so that she gets back to the whole picture of your financial situation.

But what I don't get: Did she take another mortgage without your consent? Did she get that dog without your consent? Or did you finally give in? In the last case you can only accept and remind her the next time she wants to spend money on something that last time you did the compromising.

Otherwise you might be best to take some other measures to protect your limits. I mean, that would be very violent of her and you might separate your bank accounts so it won't happen again.

[Inquisitive1]

She did NOT get the dog or take a second mortgage. If she did either of those, I'd certainly create separate accounts, and there's a good chance I'd start working on leaving her. I just won't accept financial irresponsibility her or myself anymore.

I like the idea of saving a small amount each month to use for renovations. Not sure she'll be into the delayed gratification. Not sure we can pull that off. BUT, it's worth suggesting and trying.

She is actively investigating refinancing our mortgage now. I'm o.k. with this as a way to reduce our monthly expenses, but NOT as a way to finance renovations. I've made this clear to her on several occasions. Cashing out $10,000 of our equity probably wouldn't increase our monthly payments more than $100 or so. Still, part of me does NOT want to compromise on pulling cash out of a refi.

We still carry some credit card debt. The best thing for us to do long-term would be to refi, and use the money we save to pay of credit cards.

The other day, she said if we didn't do the renovations, she might have to divorce me. It doesn't make sense to refi if we are going to divorce anytime soon because we'd just be reducing our equity in the house. I'd like to talk to her about that, but maybe it just to inflamatory. If I do bring it up, how do I bring it up?

[SettingBorders]

The other day, she said if we didn't do the renovations, she might have to divorce me. It doesn't make sense to refi if we are going to divorce anytime soon because we'd just be reducing our equity in the house. I'd like to talk to her about that, but maybe it just to inflamatory. If I do bring it up, how do I bring it up?

I wouldn't bring this up, to be honest. She is blackmailing you to divorce if you don't do what she wants. If now you take that serious it just reinforces the blackmail. Don't let her know that what she said preys on your mind. Also, logical arguements won't help the two of you.

If she brings up the divorce-issue again, I would tell her that like a marriage, a common mortgage is something both of you must want. It only one person wants it, then it won't happen. Make clear that you're only against the mortgage, not against the renovation and that you're open for compromises like making small step by step changes in the house. But if she keeps discussing on another mortgage, state your point and end the conversation.

[Notwendy]

These boundaries are a challenge to maintain just like any boundaries. Money has an emotional component to it. How people relate to money is related to who they are. Some are spenders, some are savers, some are generous, some are stingy. We have all heard of very wealthy people going broke with spending, and people who are not wealthy who plan and save and don't go broke.

I see money as playing a role on the drama triangle ( read about it). Sometimes we can play all the roles with ourselves. I see the in discriminant spending as a form of self rescuing- the person feels bad, things are unfair, they feel like a victim. The spending- " I am worth this, I deserve this" . It is an emotional want, not a realistic one. I also see the spending as being a function of an ideal self. "My ideal self will live in this nice house". The idea could come from anywhere. Money can also be a form of control, or resistance to being controlled.

Money is one of those "hot topics" in marriages, like religion, sex, roles in the home, because no two people come together with the same emotional relationship to money. So like any emotionally connected topic, it can be difficult in a marriage with a disordered person.

Money was an issue with my parents, (BPD mom) and we lived as two incomes in one family. Mom lived in a spare no expense world, while we had limited things. My father would say " I can't help you with college expenses because Mom needs new furniture". ( the furniture was fine as far as I could tell).  My father put no limits on her or her wants. It was kind of pitiful as the only clothing he had was items that family members bought him. He did nothing for himself.

Because my mother had no limits, she didn't understand how to manage money. After my father died, we feared she would go through the money in no time.  We tried to help her with this, and she had a fit, screamed that I was stealing her money. So we had to let this be-it was her money and she would do what she wanted . Recently though- she discovered that her bank account was getting smaller quickly, and nobody was putting more in. Now, she is starting to see that she needs to manage it.

We teach kids this. They get an allowance, and learn that, this is it, you have to make choices. Money is not unlimited. Then, what good it is to let an adult spend indiscriminately? I have heard financial advisers state that each member of a couple should have some money to spend or save as they wish. The amount depends on what they can afford. No limits and you might find yourself in significant debt.

[livednlearned]

Does she work or bring in any income? She may be feeling inadequate and incompetent, so the argument about renovating is emotional, not logical. Figuring out what is fueling her need to renovate might help you help her understand what is behind the urge (without addressing it overtly).

A lot of the skills (SET, validation) are good to help prevent emotional arousal. Sometimes, though, you have to gently stand by your boundary, even if it causes conflict and dysregulation. You probably know that 

Also, if you are charged up about the topic, it can be hard to dial down your own feelings and be present with her feelings. When I was learning SET and validation, I found that validating questions helped slow things down (I tended, and still do to some extent, to rush to JADE-ing when things feel emotional). Validating questions can help acknowledge her feelings, while also recognizing that she may have thoughts and solutions to problems.

"I want to renovate the house, too. What will we do if we go under and lose the house?"

Talking about divorce if you don't renovate is emotional blackmail (drama triangle, like notwendy mentioned), so if you can take note it happened, let it slide by, and move on, that's probably going to help you stay centered so she doesn't feel like there is a red cape to wave when she wants something.

One thing I learned about my BPD loved one is that when she is emotionally aroused, she really does not have access to cognitive processing. It may sound like reason on the surface. Underneath, though, is a fight/flight type experience where she is trying to feel like she has a self, and that she matters. I had to learn to really slow down and stay with the emotions, as uncomfortable and odd as it may seem. Validating questions might help you slow the pace down.

[Inquisitive1]

Thanks for the feedback y'all.

I will be standing by my financial boundaries, even if it leads to conflict. 

The example 'validating question' was excellent. Can someone point me at a good read about validating questions?

My wife just spent $809 on a flight to get my child out of the way of the coming Hurricane... .that's alot of money which makes me anxious. OTOH, hurricanes are serious business, so I think I need to accept that this is a reasonable purchase.

[SettingBorders]

Thanks for the feedback y'all.
My wife just spent $809 on a flight to get my child out of the way of the coming Hurricane... .that's alot of money which makes me anxious. OTOH, hurricanes are serious business, so I think I need to accept that this is a reasonable purchase.

I guess you have to accept this. Howevery, if she didn't talk to you about this before the decision was made, I would bring this into light. "I would have agreed if you had asked me, as I see this is important, but next time, please discuss such an expense with me first."

[livednlearned]

The example 'validating question' was excellent. Can someone point me at a good read about validating questions?

There is an excerpt here, which comes from the book I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms.

It helps because it tells her you acknowledge and accept how she feels (she probably feels that no one thinks how she feels is meaningful or important), and it also puts responsibility on her for solving the problem she thinks exists (she probably feels that she is inadequate and incompetent at solving her own problems).

Both of these together, combined in a question, can be very effective. I found they work best in terms of creating a validating environment. Once a full-blown dysregulation is in swing, other skills might be needed.

It's important to feel empathy when asking a validating question, otherwise it can seem patronizing -- the words must be paired with the intent to care how she experiences her reality.