Physical intimacy

[BowlOfPetunias]

Unfortunately, my relationship with J in college left me pretty scarred.  Yes, there was an element of the sex that was great and kept me there.  To be blunt, I was able to have anal sex with her and that was incredible.  (I haven't had anal sex since then.)  But she was very critical during sex and would tell me things like I was kissing "wrong."  I would spend so long stimulating her manually that my fingers would start to ache, so I switched hands--leading to a big fight about why I "stopped" because I must not have "liked it."  I tried to explain that I had not stopped but was merely switching hands, but she would not believe me.  Then there was the time I tried to perform oral sex on her--she shouted at me to stop, and then started a big fight--WHY did I stop?  It must be because I didn't like it!  (Not because she was shouting at me to stop, of course.)

Effects of these scars include fear of stepping on land mines during sex and a fear that that I would never find someone else if I wound up getting divorced.  I also had a reluctance to perform oral sex that I am starting to get over.  (It is very frustrating, however, that after years of telling me that she wanted oral sex, my wife is still does not prioritize sex.  TV comes first, for example.)

[hergestridge]

Sex in my new relationship is very different from the sex I had with my BPDx. Now sex is a two-way thing. With my ex it was all rather clinical and technical. She was always frustrated because she had trouble reaching climax and that was a bit of a turn-off when she became angry and impatient with that in bed. Also, she was heavy heanded and demanding. After she had reached climax it was like I had a minute or two to "do my thing" which she didn't seem to enjoy.
It's a whole new world now. The sex is much better.

[rfriesen]

Sex with my BPDex was by far the best sex I've had, in terms of pure sexual pleasure. We were always in sync physically, and in hindsight I'd say we both came into the relationship still looking for that partner who was ready to let all boundaries go and be as kinky and free as possible. We just clicked on a sexual level. I've never been so constantly sex-obsessed as the year and a half with my ex, and I've never felt so good about myself sexually because I felt I could make my ex orgasm at will. It's an incredibly intoxicating feeling.

But looking back at all of that, I think it just set us up for a bigger fall and a messier sh**show when it all ended. We relied on that sexual connection to carry us through so much, and I can see looking back that my ex believed (maybe only at a subconscious/instinctive level) that with sex that good she could get away with raging at me and lying to me and that I would never walk away.

Also, as great as the sex was, because we put so much focus on it, we ended up always looking for something more intense, more extreme -- always looking to buy more sex toys, to put more time aside for sex. We would message each other all day at work about sex, have sex at work, then I'd leave work for her place and we would have sex some more. It sounds great and obviously it was, in terms of pure pleasure, but it's not sustainable and it starts to distort the way you look at the world. All you see is sex everywhere and people pursuing it and that starts to interfere with your relationship in a lot of ways. Maybe for some people the solution is to join a kink community, find others who are as sexually driven as you, let your inhibitions and jealousies go, etc. The thing is, that's not me at the end of the day. I don't want to organise my life around sex. Sure, I still question myself sometimes --- maybe the secret to life is to pursue that intense pleasure day in and day out, and not stress the rest of life.

But, no, for me ultimately it was too chaotic. And my ex was increasingly suspicious and jealous and paranoid, and I kept telling her by the end of the relationship that we put too much focus on sex and it was causing us all kinds of problems. But she didn't want to listen. Sex was our salvation and she wouldn't accept that it could also be a source of our problems.

That relationship has really left me struggling with sexual desires, and working hard to regain some measure of control over them. I would honestly like sex to be a much smaller part of a more stable relationship, rather than such a constant focus. I'd rather sex be a continuation of the intimacy that I have in other aspects of a relationship, rather than just a living out of my wildest porn fantasies. That's what my mind and heart want. But given how things went with my ex, it's a struggle to get my desires to conform to that. I still have all the porn fantasies and remember how amazing it felt to live them out with my ex. It will take time to re-orient my desires. And, for me, that's the reason for trying not to watch any porn right now. It's not anything broader than that, and certainly not me telling others what they should do. It all depends on your situation and overall life project

[VitaminC]

Some very honest and insightful comments in this thread. Helpful to me too as this aspect of my  relationship with my exBPD is, it seems, the last one that I still have to "work out".  Perhaps because sexual intimacy is such a rich and somehow densely compacted language (I mean, way of communicating). We "mean" so many different things by it.

I remember a very early conversation I had with my ex in which I said something about how sex was, for me, a communion of sorts - a thing we create together. To him, he said, it was "getting rid of things". I thought this was extraordinary and kind of weird - certainly in the context of a chat about sex in a relationship.

Obviously I can see how we can use sex as a way to manage stress and take our minds off things. That has it's place too and is fine, in general. It doesn't always have to be angels singing and a full orchestra descending out of the heavens.   

... .and I can see looking back that my ex believed (maybe only at a subconscious/instinctive level) that with sex that good she could get away with raging at me and lying to me and that I would never walk away.

This resonates. I definitely had a sense of his using his skill as a means to control.

It sounds great and obviously it was, in terms of pure pleasure, but it's not sustainable and it starts to distort the way you look at the world. All you see is sex everywhere and people pursuing it and that starts to interfere with your relationship in a lot of ways.

I began to understand, gradually, that, yes, he saw sex everywhere, and that this was not limited to his interactions with me. Ever interaction was either purely intellectual or sexualized in some way. I started to notice other women myself and perceive them less as humans and more as potential conquests. It was as if I was experimenting with what the world looked like to him.  I noticed myself noticing this. And I noticed recently (5 months out of the relationship) how that has changed back to my seeing people walking, drinking coffees, sitting on park benches, whatever, and just appreciating their humanity.

Sure, I still question myself sometimes --- maybe the secret to life is to pursue that intense pleasure day in and day out, and not stress the rest of life.

Oh, absolutely. Very well put.

[rfriesen]

I began to understand, gradually, that, yes, he saw sex everywhere, and that this was not limited to his interactions with me. Ever interaction was either purely intellectual or sexualized in some way.

This hits home for me, as a place I had somehow reached in life. I work as an academic and lawyer and that obviously tends to be intellectual work, and I'm comfortable functioning in that mode. Looking back on things now,  realise that over a period of years, my emotional world had largely been reduced to a very intellectual side and a very sexual side. Those were the two things that drove me. Then I met my ex, and we started on what became by far the most sexual relationship of my life.

These relationships have a way of mirroring some parts of yourself back at you. Only when I realised how sexualised my ex's world was, did I begin to see how central a focus sex was in my own way of relating to the world as well. My ex is beautiful and flirtatious and fun and outgoing ... .so she obviously gets hit on a lot. And she seems unable not to respond, even when she seems uncomfortable with the person hitting on her or with the situation and even if she knows that she'll regret it after. Sometimes it's almost as if she's put herself out there, wanting everyone's attention, but when she gets it, she sort of feels as trapped, if someone is calling her bluff ... .and then she feels that she has to back up her talk with action.

What really messed with my head after the end of our relationship, was realising I do essentially the same thing. I can see now how for so long I had been in a mode of just being constantly aware, everywhere I'd go, of women around me I found attractive and I was always looking for signals of mutual attraction. I don't think I ever acted inappropriately -- all I mean is that so much mental energy went into picking up subtle cues of attraction and chasing them all down whenever I had the slightest interest. And, for sure, often when a little flirting escalated and it was clear something more was in the cards, I felt I had to back up my flirting with action. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I didn't really want to have sex or that I didn't enjoy having sex when that's where things led ... .but if I could have stepped back from it all (as this past relationship has made me do) and asked whether that's really what I wanted to pour so much mental energy into, I would have tried to make changes in my life sooner. Instead of trying to satisfy every urge, I would have put effort in sooner to change the kinds/extent of urges that I have.

I think that, as guys, we're less likely to think to ourselves, "wait a minute, what's wrong with me that I crave sexual attention from women literally all the time. Don't I want to channel my energy and focus to something a little more productive, or at least find a better balance?"

Our culture is much more validating of men who are constantly finding new sexual partners. Obviously. This isn't an original insight, but it hit home for me in a completely new way after the relationship with my ex. Because it can distort our thinking on what we really want out of life. I mean, men get more of a "free pass" when it comes to sleeping around -- it won't necessarily affect our reputations in the same way. Which is certainly a positive for us, so the last thing I'm trying to say is that men have it bad in this respect. But, because of that, I think we're much less likely to question ourselves about whether we're really happiest chasing sex all the time.

I started to notice other women myself and perceive them less as humans and more as potential conquests. It was as if I was experimenting with what the world looked like to him.

I find it so interesting that you would say this! Because my ex used to talk all the time about all the "damage" she would do if she had a penis. She wasn't bisexual and said she had never really been attracted to other women, but she loved the idea of "having a big dick" and "just pounding away on all these women". She liked to point out all the women she would "wreck". (Sorry for being crude, but she could be crude and I wanted to convey how she expressed herself.) Now, obviously she would say this in the context of us joking around and being comfortable enough to say anything to each other. But, joking aside, she always came back to it and really did seem to love the idea of it.

At an emotional level, I think I'm still kind of unpacking all that was going on between us. She liked me to be dominant sexually and I loved that too. But I never thought of that in a demeaning or degrading way. It was all playful and sensual for me, I felt. Now I often wonder how much more was going on for her psychologically -- maybe the intense sexual pleasure for her was combined with deeper or heavier or darker psychological elements of wanting to be dominated and also fantasizing about being the guy who dominates and controls others.

Well, there's just so much going on with sex -- a "densely compacted language", as you say, Vitamin C -- that it's easy to get lost in analysing it. At the end of the day, it was an incredible sexual connection with my ex, that only seemed to get better as our relationship got more dysfunctional. Until there was no way to ignore how unhealthy our relationship was overall and it all fell apart.

And I noticed recently (5 months out of the relationship) how that has changed back to my seeing people walking, drinking coffees, sitting on park benches, whatever, and just appreciating their humanity.

Yes, I've put in a lot of work to change my patterns of behaviour and thought and to shift my focus away from sexual thoughts and sexual gratification. It's felt miserable at times, because, well I guess just because it's hard to change deeply engrained patterns of thought and behaviour. But it's amazing the other aspects of life that come back into fuller view once you begin to let go of something that occupied too much mental space and energy.

[VitaminC]

Then I met my ex, and we started on what became by far the most sexual relationship of my life.

Two things: For me, this was also true because:

a)  I had never felt so utterly desirable before. I've had wonderful, loving, and mutually intense sexual intimacy with partners, but somehow the chemistry with the exBPD was different.
b) The element of danger I perceived was a huge initial kick. I specifically thought "he is dangerous to me" - I didn't know how or why at the time, but found it very exciting.

This tells me that sometimes chemistry is just 'right' between people, but that whatever is happening for me during sex is not as straightforward as I may sometimes think or say.   

These relationships have a way of mirroring some parts of yourself back at you. Only when I realised how sexualised my ex's world was, did I begin to see how central a focus sex was in my own way of relating to the world as well.

... .I don't think I ever acted inappropriately -- all I mean is that so much mental energy went into picking up subtle cues of attraction and chasing them all down whenever I had the slightest interest.

Yes. Glad to hear you say this. This way of relating to the world is familiar to me too. And being aware of those subtle cues is (was) my specialty.

Instead of trying to satisfy every urge, I would have put effort in sooner to change the kinds/extent of urges that I have.

Can you say more about this?

I think that, as guys, we're less likely to think to ourselves, "wait a minute, what's wrong with me that I crave sexual attention from women literally all the time. Don't I want to channel my energy and focus to something a little more productive, or at least find a better balance?"

I'm a woman, rfriesen, and totally relate to what you've said here. And, yes, I might have stepped back and thought about this years before, but it took this relationship to really make it bubble up enough so that I could identify it as a definite area worthy of further investigation.  I'm very glad for that.

At an emotional level, I think I'm still kind of unpacking all that was going on between us. She liked me to be dominant sexually and I loved that too. But I never thought of that in a demeaning or degrading way. It was all playful and sensual for me, I felt. Now I often wonder how much more was going on for her psychologically -- maybe the intense sexual pleasure for her was combined with deeper or heavier or darker psychological elements of wanting to be dominated and also fantasizing about being the guy who dominates and controls others.

Hm, I can't begin to guess at what the intensity was like or about for him. Despite being very sexual, he was never able to talk frankly about what he liked or didn't like or fantasized about or anything. Whereas I felt it was playful and sensuous, as you say, and ultimately lovely and healthy, I think for him there was huge shame associated with it. 

He felt good about his skill, I know that.  But almost as if it was a reflection of him and not really part of what our mutual attraction and desire created.   For me, it was all about him and "us", for him it was ... .I have zero idea.

It's possible that, had he been as open and joyful about it as I was, I would not have had that sense of danger and that that would have lessened the sexual bond between us for me.

I've had lovers that I would describe as "lusty" - there's a fun and play in that, which was missing from the r/s with my BPD ex.

Yes, I've put in a lot of work to change my patterns of behaviour and thought and to shift my focus away from sexual thoughts and sexual gratification. It's felt miserable at times, because, well I guess just because it's hard to change deeply engrained patterns of thought and behaviour. But it's amazing the other aspects of life that come back into fuller view once you begin to let go of something that occupied too much mental space and energy.

That's very good!

But I do find it so interesting! And, like I was saying, this feels like the last tangle I want to untangle.

I'm reminded of the Raymond Carver short story What We Talk About When We Talk About Love - substitute "Sex" for "Love"    

[Herodias]

Rfriesen,

You might find it interesting to know that the vibrator was actually invented as a treatment method to borderline patients under their former moniker of hysteria. Which was the same style of treatment method prescribed to hysterics in ancient Greek medical texts. Other treatments prescribed to them in the distant past were surprise surprise... .blood letting.

.    This is interesting! I just googled it- I wonder how they seem to use sex and cutting as "therapy" for themselves?

[bestintentions]

Wow, I'm glad I found this thread but it's stirred all kinds of uncomfortable thoughts and feelings for me.  As I work through breaking away from the 25-year r/s with my stbxBPDw, I feel great trepidation about sex with anyone new.  I haven't put a timetable on anything as I'm assuming I will know when the time "feels" right.  Not being as emotional when seeing pictures of her or thinking about good times seems like a good start.  But I'd be lying if I were to say that what I should expect from a new partner sexually might not be setting me up for something unrealistically obtainable in a real-love-give-and-take r/s.  I'm guessing that's also rooted in the fact that I may not know what that type of r/s might really be like since my wife clearly didn't "see" selfless love the way I do, which includes monogamy.  Am I crazy to think there's a sane, beautiful woman out there for me who loves sex and will love me for who I am and not what I provide?  In assuming that my wife had been faithful during our marriage (until she told me she wasn't) I always used that trust to feel like I could pursue other interests and progress as a human in work and in life.  I loved living that life (that I now know was fantasy).  Is that an unrealistic goal for me moving forward?  I hope not.

Sex was always great with her and she was generous even when she didn't feel like having it.  For that, I was openly grateful to her.  I think this has been one of the hardest parts of losing her, as it seems impossible that there wasn't love there and that it was purely to control me.  I'll probably never know but it's something I need to come to terms with. 

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this as it's been on my mind pretty frequently.  Perhaps the fact that I've only had sex with her during our r/s may wind up being detrimental to me in the long run?

[VitaminC]

Am I crazy to think there's a sane, beautiful woman out there for me who loves sex and will love me for who I am and not what I provide? 

Absolutely not! You know that's not crazy and is a rhetorical question

In assuming that my wife had been faithful during our marriage (until she told me she wasn't) I always used that trust to feel like I could pursue other interests and progress as a human in work and in life. 

What you describe there is pretty much how healthy relationships work. The trust we feel is the solid foundation we use to leap off to explore and pursue other things. And then we come back to the solid foundation (we come home) and say something like "can't wait to tell you all about it, my darling"

Thinking that the foundation is solid and trusting the other, then having that broken is a very painful thing.

Perhaps the fact that I've only had sex with her during our r/s may wind up being detrimental to me in the long run?

a) it sounds like you were living in accord with your value system. That can only be a good thing, surely?
b) why should it be detrimental? Or how could it be?

After a 13 year (monogamous) r/s with my ex-husband, the first time I was physically intimate with someone else was very very strange. Both my body and my mind were confused. 

[Moselle]

Am I crazy to think there's a sane, beautiful woman out there for me who loves sex and will love me for who I am and not what I provide? 

No. I don't think think that is crazy. It does however represent a standard. I think what you are referring to is intimacy and love.

When we set the bar/standard for what we want or need. We enter a journey to health and healthy relationships.

What needs to happen for this to become a reality?

[bestintentions]

a) it sounds like you were living in accord with your value system. That can only be a good thing, surely?
b) why should it be detrimental? Or how could it be?

After a 13 year (monogamous) r/s with my ex-husband, the first time I was physically intimate with someone else was very very strange. Both my body and my mind were confused. 

Living in accord with my value system is exactly what I thought of during my marriage... .and, well, I didn't even think about it to be honest.  I just expected it from myself and her.  Any other thoughts outside complete trust can venture into jealousy and I want to avoid that.  Any flirtations I may have had over the years with other women, were... .just that.  Exercising muscles I wouldn't put to use outside my marriage.  When we'd go out, men would hit on my wife frequently and I was OK with that - she came home with me.  But in the end, this is the sort of thing she gave in to and what her life became before she walked out.  While I have made progress without her, these are the negative types of thoughts I'm still holding on to.  Baggage I don't want to carry into another r/s.

The reason I think having only one partner over the last 25 years may be detrimental is that my sexual perceptions are based on a sample size as small as they come.  I'm not judging anyone else, but in the entirety of my r/s I never fantasized about someone else during sex.  Not only did I not need to, I didn't want to.  Every single good sexual experience I've had revolves around one woman.  That scares me moving forward.

How long did it take before you were comfortable being intimate physically?  Was your BPD history known to your partner?

I guess it's really as simple as being OK with myself, what I want, what I expect and finding someone who'll accept that if I choose to enter another LTR.   

[Icanteven]

To subby's question, non-existent?  And I'm worried after reading this thread.

Our sex life was intense to the point that we watched 50 Shades and thought it was a parody if not an outright comedy; we were told by an usher we'd have to leave if we didn't stop laughing so disruptively.  And the ending confused us because as vanilla and silly as the rest was the finale was straight up abuse.

Nothing was off limits so long as there was permission; I sense that's not what the future holds, as that was never the case before her and apparently not after per the thread.

[VitaminC]

Living in accord with my value system is exactly what I thought of during my marriage... .and, well, I didn't even think about it to be honest.  I just expected it from myself and her. 

Does it feel as if your belief in what you were doing and what you were living was shaken to the core?
If so, it would make sense, from what I am understanding from your posts.

There's got to be a recovery period from something momentous like that. 
That's part of the process. Not easy and not pain-free, but such tremendous benefits to be derived from it.

But in the end, this is the sort of thing she gave in to and what her life became before she walked out.  While I have made progress without her, these are the negative types of thoughts I'm still holding on to.  Baggage I don't want to carry into another r/s.

You're right not to want to carry negative baggage. The question is what does the baggage consist of (did you pack this suitcase yourself, sir? ) and what's the best way to jettison the unnecessary weight?

The reason I think having only one partner over the last 25 years may be detrimental is that my sexual perceptions are based on a sample size as small as they come.  I'm not judging anyone else, but in the entirety of my r/s I never fantasized about someone else during sex.  Not only did I not need to, I didn't want to.  Every single good sexual experience I've had revolves around one woman.  That scares me moving forward.

Ok, I understand.  It would be like that for anyone in a very long monogamous relationship. I'm thinking of widowers and widows, especially those from a different era who quite often had only one sexual partner in their lives.

A lot of adjustment required. Or maybe that's not necessarily the case... .maybe it's more about letting time pass and then meeting someone else with whom one develops those kinds of bonds slowly. The sex will just be one element of a relationship, and maybe we can think of it as the crowning achievement of good communication, of good and healthy intimacy.

How long did it take before you were comfortable being intimate physically?  Was your BPD history known to your partner?

I was married for 13 years, not to someone with BPD, and was very much in love and we were monogamous. When that ended, I was single for about a year and then met someone with whom I became physically intimate after a couple of months.

I suppose it was a few weeks before I stopped having flashes of my ex during intimate times. They were mostly flashes though, that came unbidden at odd moments. I had fleeting feelings of disloyalty to my ex.
That relationship only lasted a couple of months, but ended mutually and in a friendly fashion and we are still in touch.

It was a few years after that, that I met my BPD. 

There's an excitement to discovering someone else though, that's not to be forgotten about here.  I think maybe from your current perspective, casting forward in time and imagining what it might be like, is really taking stabs in the dark.  As a weird metaphor.   We can't know how we're going to feel about someone and our interactions with them, because we haven't met that person yet.

I feel that it's good to be aware of this as a thing, but that physical intimacy is just one part of a relationship.

[woundedPhoenix]

How is my sex life? Tricky Question Really.

BPD relationship:
- No Physical Foreplay, jumping right into it or Mind Sex and shamefull confessions instead
- BPDex would control her own orgasms, would come easily, synchronised
- intensity and limitless but no sweet intimacy, feels fake
- the drama and conflict in the r/s over time became sort of an aphrodisiac
- sex turned into a form of manipulation
- simple and straightforeward

post-BPD relationship
- lots of kissing and extended sexual foreplay
- orgasms are a lot more work, rarely synchronised
- a kind of vulnerable closeness, feels real.
- no drama and conflict, no aphrodisiac
- sex as an expression of loving feelings, no manipulation
- complicated and rich

And... .the transition from a BPD sex life to a more normal sexlife is really strange to experience... .After being used to the BPD flavour of extreme thrills and bestial excitement for so long, it's been quite a journey.
It's going from a black and white thing into something that has all these shades of grey inbetween. the relationship dynamic is totally different. With the BPDex i could have sex and still have my walls around me, with my new girlfriend i can only have sex without any walls at all.

Probably due to the fact that sex was used as a manipulation tool, i developped erectional dysfunction and premature ejaculation issues towards the end of the BPD r/s. That is healing now, and probably a psychological cause lay at the source of it where i felt my ex and i being more and more emotionally detached due to the drama and distrust, and that created a deep running anxiety.

[Moselle]

BPD relationship:
- No Physical Foreplay, jumping right into it or Mind Sex and shamefull confessions instead
- BPDex would control her own orgasms, would come easily, synchronised
- intensity and limitless but no sweet intimacy, feels fake
- the drama and conflict in the r/s over time became sort of an aphrodisiac
- sex turned into a form of manipulation
- simple and straightforeward

post-BPD relationship
- lots of kissing and extended sexual foreplay
- orgasms are a lot more work, rarely synchronised
- a kind of vulnerable closeness, feels real.
- no drama and conflict, no aphrodisiac
- sex as an expression of loving feelings, no manipulation
- complicated and rich

WoundedPhoenix, this is about the best comparison I've seen of physical intimacy with BPD and after.

There's one thing I might add. An aphrodisiac in post BPD can be other forms of intimacy. Verbal, emotional, spiritual, intellectual.

[VitaminC]

After being used to the BPD flavour of extreme thrills and bestial excitement for so long, it's been quite a journey.

This.

An aphrodisiac in post BPD can be other forms of intimacy. Verbal, emotional, spiritual, intellectual.

And this.


Bestial, I relate.