Can't Trust Myself - Possible BPD Spouse

[ampersandalz]

Sorry for the long post - tl;dr at the end.

Keeping details sparse for obvious reasons, but I'm so pained and confused and recently started reading about BPD to find that my spouse fits the bill an almost scary amount.

I am the definition of "caretaker." She wants something, she gets it when she asks. I have been this way for years and I am quite certain I have set that expectation. I am a person with many hobbies and have all but ceased engaging them in the past year to make sure her needs are suited.

She demands my attention at all times and even when she does not, I feel very anxious and uncomfortable not giving it to her. She is a very busy person who works extremely long, stressful days at home. I work full time, but not to the same degree as her, so I pick up most of the home duties.

When we are good together, we are great. I love her very much and am happy to do things for her, whatever she asks, and she is, at her best, a very kind, passionate person who I believe wants to do what she can for me when she has the time.

When we are having a bad time, however, life is... .scary. She suffers from anxiety and it flares up severely at night. She has told me recently that she feels anxious around me in particular because she thinks she has to be a certain way for me to like her, but I do not feel I have ever been anything less than loving and attracted to her, which leads me to my next point.

A year ago I admitted to her many of the negative feelings I had felt over the year prior in hopes of clearing any negativity from our relationship and being fully honest. In that time, I admitted to resenting her for the way she has treated and spoken to me in the past (she has a tendency to talk down to me, like I am a child, or make me feel like I am incapable of doing anything properly). In that conversation, I admitted to looking at pornography for a brief period of time. I wanted to get it off my chest and clear the guilt I felt for it - I have always been an entirely faithful significant other and in truth I thought she would kind of... .brush it off. Instead, she took it entirely to heart, blamed herself, and now, a year later, still brings it up and I feel positively terrible for it.

From the point above, my entire sex drive feels extremely confused. In the time I was viewing these things, I felt like I had a very high sex drive and she was working long hours and had a very low sex drive. I didn't feel it ever diminished our personal sex life so I didn't think much of it. There was possibly a color of resentment involved in my viewing it, maybe a desire for control -- it is an entire industry that seems built on making males feel in control and I guess I wanted to experience that for a change. I was raised in a highly religious environment that made sexuality feel very taboo, so it has taken me a long time to realize and acknowledge my own needs and not be ashamed of them - something I still struggle with. As things stand now, our sex life heated up drastically after I confessed to her, but she often made it known that she was only doing it so I would still like her. Now, as things have normalized, I often feel frustrated and confused. I have trouble feeling arousal out of fear for her simply wanting to appease me - seems pretty circular, I guess.

Not to dwell on the sexual point, I'll fast forward to the here and now. I am in therapy, I have been for about a year after things hit their first "rock bottom" and felt that things were looking up. Our relationship had improved, at least to a degree where things felt more peaceful, and I was finding myself moving forward until our most recent fights.

She continues to tell me that when she speaks to me, I get too defensive. I try to be patient and not get that way, but the way she speaks to me often comes on the offensive. In her mind and words, I should be more objective and "know she doesn't mean it that way, it's just how she is," but easier said than done. She is very critical and often says things that completely contradict the events that occurred (at least as I recall them). For example, this argument stemmed from her stating the last time we had sex was "uncomfortable and she didn't like it or the way I acted towards her." I stated that I also felt it was uncomfortable, but because of how she acted towards me - refusing any sort of physical touch, telling her I am making her anxious, and then out of the blue (while I am half asleep) saying "oh well, will you just f**k me or something?" in a disdainful tone. I told her this and she immediately said "You just turn things around on me, I'm always the bad guy, you can't just take responsibility for things. You're too defensive and you never own up to your actions." She recalled her version of events and I felt bad, but I looked at her and told her that what she was telling me just did not happen.

I will now circle back to the subject of this post. Often times, she tells me heavily skewed (and sometimes entirely different) versions of events than the way I remember them. She has even gone so far as to tell me bold-faced lies, saying I have done things that I have never, ever done. She has told me that she found an entire "archive" of all of the porn I ever viewed - even going so far as to threaten divorce if I wouldn't confess to it, but such a thing does not exist. She has told me that she met a girl at a bar who knew my name, features, where I worked, who I was, but when I asked her name she told me two entirely different names, to which she responded "yeah, well, I guess I made that up, but I still think you're cheating on me." (I have never and would never, ever cheat on her.) I will add the point that both of these statements were under the influence of alcohol, but she has since stopped drinking nearly as much so I haven't had any other encounters quite so outrageous.

Now it's just little things, little moments where she gets mad at me for doing in some instances exactly what she has asked of me. Just last night she got mad at me for waking her from the couch to go to bed, when only an hour earlier she had asked me to "drag her to bed if I have to" if she falls asleep. I responded with an elevated tone, not angry, just confused, and all she said was "stop doing that whiny, defensive tone. That's what I have a problem with. Now I can't sleep any more."

To wrap it all up, I'll give a more direct list of traits that I feel fit the BPD symptoms.

• She will tell me to "go and enjoy myself" when I have a plan (I rarely leave the house now, outside of work, as I don't want to disturb her rest or studies), but often get mad at me when I get home for being "later than expected." Her solution to this is now stating "you can go, but just to warn you I will be mad if you're home later than this particular time and past that I will only get madder, so prepare yourself."


• I will clean the entire house, do dishes for an entire week, then go a day or two without doing dishes and have her act like she has been entirely put out by having to lay a finger on them, especially if she has to do them before making dinner.


• She craves, sometimes demands attention. When she is done with work, I am expected to sit on the couch with her until bedtime. She asks me for compliments directly and complains if they are not "original enough." Recently she asked why I wasn't paying her more attention and I said it's because she is asking for attention from me while she won't even look up from her phone and she could not grasp why that was a problem.


• She tells me she is suffering from anxiety from the pressure of her life and the pressure that I "put on her to be perfect," though I almost never ask anything of her and when I do, it's minimal and I feel bad for it. When I ask what I can do to make it better, she tells me nothing and it doesn't matter.

• When our worst fights break out, she spins it back around towards divorce or separation. I have never suggested this once, but she acts hurt and upset if I don't give reasons entirely focused on her for why I do not want this. (because I do absolutely love her and want to be there for her - I will fight for her undoubtedly, but I picked up my entire life and moved across the country with her to support her going to medical school)

• She will ignore or get distracted when I talk to her about things I care about, tell me they're boring or act visibly bored after just a few minutes, but she'll talk to me for hours about what she has going on and act offended if I even so much as fidget. (she knows I have very little personal free time and while I love spending time with her, she can never seem to just let me go do my thing)

• Constant questioning. I have stopped leaving the house to support my hobbies because I got tired of being asked for constant updates on where I am and what I'm doing - she was even asking for me to send her my location to "ease her mind that I'm being honest." Even little discrepancies are scrutinized. I used to leave early to go to an event every Friday to make sure I don't have to rush, but when I'm running late one day she says "you're leaving a lot later than usual," so I explain why I always left early, and her response is along the lines of "Hm. Seems sketchy, but whatever you say."

Lastly, I am also a highly anxious, generally depressed person. Much of this stemming from my feelings of inability to properly express myself or engage my interests. I have no friends or family where I live and I do not want to burden my friends and family with these stories because I do not want to paint my spouse in a bad light. I do not want to lose her, but I do not want to feel this way any more.

tl;dr - My spouse is terribly self-conscious because I admitted to viewing pornography for a short period of time well over a year ago. I am shamed for this and it has caused dozens of terrible fights. I have abandoned my hobbies, interests, and dreams to support my spouse and do whatever she needs. I feel like I am "damned if I do, damned if I don't," as even when I follow her explicit instructions, she will tell me she asked for something else or I did not do it correctly. I am held responsible for even menial tasks, things as small as making sure she is awake in the morning. I am terribly anxious and depressed and do not want to lose her, but do not want to lose any more of myself. Please help me.

Thank you for your time.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[fromheeltoheal]

Hi ampersandalz-

I'm sorry you're going through that, it is very frustrating to try as hard as we can and have it still not be good enough yes?

So to cut to the core of it, you watching porn indicated to her that she wasn't enough, or wasn't good enough, something along those lines, and therefore you were going to leave, going to abandon her, the worst thing that can happen to a borderline, the core of the disorder.  And that need not have anything to do with the reality of the situation or your attempts at fixing it, and she probably couldn't articulate it like that, it's just a feeling, one that becomes fact and then she responds the way she does.  So there's your challenge, instilling in her the belief that you won't leave, hard to do with a borderline since it's the continual focus.  And for her part, you don't mention that she is getting any therapy of professional help, and skills like DBT can be used by borderlines to lessen the severity of the emotions and learn the regulate them better, so they're no so overwhelming. 

[ampersandalz]

Hi ampersandalz-

I'm sorry you're going through that, it is very frustrating to try as hard as we can and have it still not be good enough yes?

So to cut to the core of it, you watching porn indicated to her that she wasn't enough, or wasn't good enough, something along those lines, and therefore you were going to leave, going to abandon her, the worst thing that can happen to a borderline, the core of the disorder.  And that need not have anything to do with the reality of the situation or your attempts at fixing it, and she probably couldn't articulate it like that, it's just a feeling, one that becomes fact and then she responds the way she does.  So there's your challenge, instilling in her the belief that you won't leave, hard to do with a borderline since it's the continual focus.  And for her part, you don't mention that she is getting any therapy of professional help, and skills like DBT can be used by borderlines to lessen the severity of the emotions and learn the regulate them better, so they're no so overwhelming. 

Thank you for your response. I definitely agree with you.  I have suggested therapy on numerous occasions and she absolutely refuses.  Says she simply doesn't have the time of day or money to dedicate to it.  I can barely afford my own therapy, so I know I couldn't pay for hers.  I have hinted at the fact that I feel it is paramount to the health and continuation of our relationship for her to get help, but she doesn't seem to get it. The last thing she said was she'd seek a psychiatrist for medication as a "compromise," but the more I learn about BPD I don't so much think that will help.

I feel so helpless. I don't want to lose her, but I don't want to be perpetually unhappy. I feel so bad about what I've done, but do I have to feel bad about it forever?

[Conundrum]

Hi , welcome to the board. Many here are in similar situations and can relate. A bundle of excellent lessons and resources appear on the right panel >>>>.

You may already be aware that Cluster B disorders can overlap. May I ask, why you suspect BPD? Do the following diagnostic criteria seem applicable to your relationship?

DSM V

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
 Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(2) a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

(3) identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self

(4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, Substance Abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
 Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(5) recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

(6) affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

(7) chronic feelings of emptiness

(8) inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

(9) transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

Concerning your own well being--generally, you're describing the classic "walking on egg-shells" environment that develops in many of these high conflict relationships. It is extremely debilitating and we all have made excuses and rationalize, that we accept the good with the bad. However, as you know from personal experience--it takes a great toll on the self. In fact, we may often lose a sense our self--as our identity becomes subsumed by care-taking and conflict avoidance.

The good news is that debilitating dynamic can progressively improve. You possess the power to control, shape, adapt, and modify your own differentiated life. However, real change means really shaking yourself up--without the paralyzing fear of losing your attachment.

There are many helpful tools here (SET, don't JADE etc.) which may improve interacting with your partner. Try reading about them and asking questions. People here will weigh in with all sorts of ideas and helpful advice.

In any high conflict relationship--to thrive with a difficult person in a sustainable manner, it expressly requires that both partners have a willingness to improve the couple's negative relational dynamics.

From your post, it sounds like your partner has put in place a lot of beneficial self-serving parameters, via extreme subservience and acquiescence. Frankly, you don't sound too happy with the expected template you've become locked into. Also, clearly perceive the porn element--she may be upset bc it's an expression of your desire that doesn't solely focus upon her. A moral objection may be used to mask controlling behavior. And as FHTH pointed out it may be tied into abandonment fears (or maybe not)?      

This particular board can help. Here, it's not about throwing the baby out with the bathwater (or at least giving the relationship a strong good faith attempt--utilizing critical thinking, personal growth, and effective relational tools. I wish you well.

[ampersandalz]

Hi , welcome to the board. Many here are in similar situations and can relate. A bundle of excellent lessons and resources appear on the right panel >>>>.

You may already be aware that Cluster B disorders can overlap. May I ask, why you suspect BPD? Do the following diagnostic criteria seem applicable to your relationship?

DSM V

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
 Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(2) a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

(3) identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self

(4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, Substance Abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
 Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(5) recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

(6) affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

(7) chronic feelings of emptiness

(8) inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

(9) transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

Concerning your own well being--generally, you're describing the classic "walking on egg-shells" environment that develops in many of these high conflict relationships. It is extremely debilitating and we all have made excuses and rationalize, that we accept the good with the bad. However, as you know from personal experience--it takes a great toll on the self. In fact, we may often lose a sense our self--as our identity becomes subsumed by care-taking and conflict avoidance.

The good news is that debilitating dynamic can progressively improve. You possess the power to control, shape, adapt, and modify your own differentiated life. However, real change means really shaking yourself up--without the paralyzing fear of losing your attachment.

There are many helpful tools here (SET, don't JADE etc.) which may improve interacting with your partner. Try reading about them and asking questions. People here will weigh in with all sorts of ideas and helpful advice.

In any high conflict relationship--to thrive with a difficult person in a sustainable manner, it expressly requires that both partners have a willingness to improve the couple's negative relational dynamics.

From your post, it sounds like your partner has put in place a lot of beneficial self-serving parameters, via extreme subservience and acquiescence. Frankly, you don't sound too happy with the expected template you've become locked into. Also, clearly perceive the porn element--she may be upset bc it's an expression of your desire that doesn't solely focus upon her. A moral objection may be used to mask controlling behavior. And as FHTH pointed out it may be tied into abandonment fears (or maybe not)?      

This particular board can help. Here, it's not about throwing the baby out with the bathwater (or at least giving the relationship a strong good faith attempt--utilizing critical thinking, personal growth, and effective relational tools. I wish you well.

Thank you for an exceptional and direct response - I want to keep hope in this relationship with the person I love most... .I can't face the idea of simply leaving her. I'd do anything for her. I will definitely look into the advice provided.

Regarding the DSM V characteristics, I would say she falls pretty exactly into every one of them save for #5, and even then, she has done those things many years ago and recently began mentioning them again. (not directly threatening, but stating that she wants to die or would feel like she has to kill herself if her own life doesn't improve) It makes me feel awful even talking about this behind her back, but I need a support system and I don't have anyone near me who can understand and provide that.

[Conundrum]

I want to keep hope in this relationship with the person I love most... .I can't face the idea of simply leaving her. I'd do anything for her.

Yes, we are all here born out of love. You don't necessarily have to immediately face the idea of leaving her--though I would gently suggest that you do need to face personal change without fearing that potential consequence. The pursuit of happiness is an inalienable right that should never be divested contrary to our free-will. 

Instead of doing "anything for her"--perhaps look at it another way; by also doing for yourself (by being benevolently selfish)--in the long run you are improving the totality of the relationship, thereby improving the probability for success.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't see porn as inherently bad, but if you do, then don't consume any more of it. It sounds like you already have made that choice, so there isn't much more to say about it in my book.

What jumps out at me is the pattern of verbal/emotional abuse, and blaming your wife falls into. I'd recommend you start out with two things--boundary enforcement, and working hard to avoid the unintentional-but-natural invalidating things you say and do.

The boundary I'd suggest is "I will not be verbally or emotionally abused."

She is entitled to feel unhappy or upset about things. You don't have to be an emotional punching bag as her way of coping with it. The answer is to remove yourself from the conversation. Chances are if you change the subject she will go right back, or attack you for something different. "I won't be spoken to that way" is a good response. If she keeps at it, leave the room. You can't convince her to stop. You can't shout her down. If she starts following you around the house, you may need to leave the house to get away. Do it if you have to.

Here's a link with a lot more about the invalidation aspect:
TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)

One version that you describe in many ways is how she changes history, blaming you for things you didn't do. What she's doing is feeling upset at you, and modifying history to "justify" her feelings. If you try to convince her that she's wrong (even though she IS!), it is as if you are trying to convince her that her feelings are wrong. And that just makes her more upset.

If you look at it, I think you will notice that when you try to convince her, it doesn't work--at least if your goal is to stop find some peace--instead it just winds her up more!

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just not make it worse, and that's actually a good start!

[ampersandalz]

A huge thanks to both of you above this post.  Since a very low period back in May, I told myself I would start moving forward toward my own happiness with an understanding of the possible consequences.  I have done very poorly in keeping this personal promise, so this is a solid reminder that it is necessary. 

The conflict management techniques sound very helpful, too.  I never mean to invalidate her feelings, it's the last thing I want to do, but I know I can do that due to some of my own defense mechanisms and desires to help her understand what she's saying, when it's not my place to try and make her understand because she already believes the words coming out of her mouth.  I will try harder to make sure I'm not invalidating her feelings in these interactions.

[fromheeltoheal]

Thank you for your response. I definitely agree with you.  I have suggested therapy on numerous occasions and she absolutely refuses.  Says she simply doesn't have the time of day or money to dedicate to it.  I can barely afford my own therapy, so I know I couldn't pay for hers.  I have hinted at the fact that I feel it is paramount to the health and continuation of our relationship for her to get help, but she doesn't seem to get it. The last thing she said was she'd seek a psychiatrist for medication as a "compromise," but the more I learn about BPD I don't so much think that will help.

Would you agree her refusal is likely based in fear?  And citing time and money is convenient?  And popping a pill is much easier because she only has to open up enough to get a prescription?  One thing that may help is to dive into a book on DBT together, something you can do together, for the health of the relationship.  There might be resistance, although books are cheap compared to therapy, and it's not a good idea to mention BPD, which is a mental illness, and no one is going to respond well to being told they have a mental illness, that will rock anyone's world.  It can be presented as a way to learn tools to "mellow out" together, which will show your concern for her and the relationship, and well as give you a common project yes?

I feel so helpless. I don't want to lose her, but I don't want to be perpetually unhappy. I feel so bad about what I've done, but do I have to feel bad about it forever?

No, you could apologize, the apology could be accepted, forgiveness granted, and on you go with the relationship, although if the dynamic is such that that kind of conversation isn't possible, then maybe a shift in the dynamic can occur as part of your project together?

[Grey Kitty]

... .I never mean to invalidate her feelings, it's the last thing I want to do, but I know I can do that due to some of my own defense mechanisms and desires to help ... .

Exactly. Nobody *wants* to do that. But nearly everybody does it without even realizing it.

Keep working on it.

One thing that really helps is to post an exact dialog here starting a bit before everything blew up. The senior folks here can point out the first invalidating thing you said; it might be earlier than you realized; sometimes it is pretty subtle, and a pwBPD is VERY sensitive to any hint of invalidation.

It will take practice to see it; at first you will realize it happened after it left your mouth, and that's OK.

It will take more practice to stop yourself from doing it.

And that's OK. You will keep getting opportunities to practice whether you want it or not   

And you will get better as you practice!

Validation is important and really helps... .but my experience has been that a teaspoon of invalidation spoils a gallon of validation... .and simply biting your tongue to keep that invalidating comment from sneaking out is easier than saying something validating, so start with understanding invalidation and cutting it out where you can.

[ampersandalz]

Thank you for your response. I definitely agree with you.  I have suggested therapy on numerous occasions and she absolutely refuses.  Says she simply doesn't have the time of day or money to dedicate to it.  I can barely afford my own therapy, so I know I couldn't pay for hers.  I have hinted at the fact that I feel it is paramount to the health and continuation of our relationship for her to get help, but she doesn't seem to get it. The last thing she said was she'd seek a psychiatrist for medication as a "compromise," but the more I learn about BPD I don't so much think that will help.

Would you agree her refusal is likely based in fear?  And citing time and money is convenient?  And popping a pill is much easier because she only has to open up enough to get a prescription?  One thing that may help is to dive into a book on DBT together, something you can do together, for the health of the relationship.  There might be resistance, although books are cheap compared to therapy, and it's not a good idea to mention BPD, which is a mental illness, and no one is going to respond well to being told they have a mental illness, that will rock anyone's world.  It can be presented as a way to learn tools to "mellow out" together, which will show your concern for her and the relationship, and well as give you a common project yes?

I feel so helpless. I don't want to lose her, but I don't want to be perpetually unhappy. I feel so bad about what I've done, but do I have to feel bad about it forever?

No, you could apologize, the apology could be accepted, forgiveness granted, and on you go with the relationship, although if the dynamic is such that that kind of conversation isn't possible, then maybe a shift in the dynamic can occur as part of your project together?

This is one of the most difficult parts. Her schooling takes up, I would argue, 12-14 hours of every day, 7 days a week.  She is very, very serious about it and while I support that, it does come as a detriment to our relationship and her personal health.  She is medicated in this time (for ADHD), which also affects her mood pretty substantially, making the entire situation a bit difficult because I never know exactly what "version" of her I'm speaking to.  I do not believe time/money are a cover for fear.  If anything, I'm more worried about the fact that she thinks she knows better.  As a matter of fact, I know she does.  Her responses say it would be a waste of time because she knows what they'll tell her, it hasn't worked in the past, and she doesn't want to suffer the embarrassment of other people knowing she's doing anything like that.  I have tried to heavily insinuate that I believe our marriage depends on her seeking help, because I know if I say it outright she'll just turn it around and threaten to leave, but she just doesn't seem to get how important it is.

[Grey Kitty]

Let me start by saying that the right therapy can improve and even cure BPD; I'm all for it... .but there are issues too... .

I have tried to heavily insinuate that I believe our marriage depends on her seeking help, because I know if I say it outright she'll just turn it around and threaten to leave, but she just doesn't seem to get how important it is.

I'd recommend you tread more lightly there.

First off, accepting that she has mental illness and needs treatment is very hard for her emotionally. And coming from you doesn't make it any easier.

Second, having conflict about whether she gets therapy, or whether she stays with / goes to therapy is pretty likely, and it doesn't resolve stuff--it just moves the fight.

Third, going to therapy isn't the same as making effective progress in therapy... .people can be in therapy and not improve for various reasons.

Her behavior is what is putting your marriage at risk right now. Focusing on the behavior will be easier for both you and for her. (And possibly if she finds changing the behavior too hard for her, will give her a purpose to seek therapy... .instead of doing it because you are nagging her to do it.)

[ampersandalz]

Let me start by saying that the right therapy can improve and even cure BPD; I'm all for it... .but there are issues too... .

I have tried to heavily insinuate that I believe our marriage depends on her seeking help, because I know if I say it outright she'll just turn it around and threaten to leave, but she just doesn't seem to get how important it is.

I'd recommend you tread more lightly there.

First off, accepting that she has mental illness and needs treatment is very hard for her emotionally. And coming from you doesn't make it any easier.

Second, having conflict about whether she gets therapy, or whether she stays with / goes to therapy is pretty likely, and it doesn't resolve stuff--it just moves the fight.

Third, going to therapy isn't the same as making effective progress in therapy... .people can be in therapy and not improve for various reasons.

Her behavior is what is putting your marriage at risk right now. Focusing on the behavior will be easier for both you and for her. (And possibly if she finds changing the behavior too hard for her, will give her a purpose to seek therapy... .instead of doing it because you are nagging her to do it.)

You're absolutely right and I appreciate your insight.  It's just scary for me as while these problems definitely feel brought to the forefront in the past year, if I'm being honest with myself I can see the depth of their roots looking back years into the past.  I just never want to feel like it's too late and I'm out of options.  I want to stay with her, but with how many times she has suggested the end of our relationship for various reasons, it makes it hard for me not to question it.

[ampersandalz]

I am beginning to get more confused and frustrated about the topic of sex in my marriage.  I reflected on it this morning, how we used to be, how great it was, how into each other we've always been.  The other night she tried to tell me not to masturbate any more, how she knows it's because she doesn't satisfy me.  I assured her this isn't the case, advising that if anything we just have different sex drives and she's busy, so I'd rather it be its best when we do get the chance (I'm not afraid to admit that I have trouble lasting if its been awhile).  She knows this, and yet argued that the idea of me masturbating is disgusting to her and if I continue she is going to buy a vibrator so she can "also contribute to our sexless marriage."  I did my best to remain calm, not JADE, and understand her points, but it still scares me.  I love this woman, I care about her, and yes, I want us to have great sex like we have for so long (and often still do), but more frequently than not she won't kiss me, won't look at me, won't say she loves me -- it's as if she wants it as impersonal as possible and it makes me feel terrible about myself.  I want to feel loved, but any time I even bring up my concerns with these things she says it's because I make her feel unloved and unattractive... .though I can't think of a single thing I do to impart these feelings and she often can't give me any reasons, either.

I know I can't operate on a level of logic in these discussions, but if anything I just need a little hope.  I DO want to feel loved and happy.  I don't want to feel alone or scared any more.  I want to feel like things will be ok with us, but with how many times she has tried to leave/suggested I leave her, I can't help but think about those things. I know she makes the statements flippantly, but they linger with me, they affect me, and it's hard to not take them seriously (especially feeling the way I do).

[fromheeltoheal]

The other night she tried to tell me not to masturbate any more, how she knows it's because she doesn't satisfy me. I assured her this isn't the case... .

... .She knows this, and yet argued that the idea of me masturbating is disgusting to her and if I continue she is going to buy a vibrator so she can "also contribute to our sexless marriage."

Is it really disgusting to her, or does she use that in an attempt to soothe abandonment fears, since she equates masturbating to her not satisfying you, so you've abandoned her sexually?

We can either have sex to take pleasure, to give pleasure, or both.  But when we "masturbate" someone else we're purely giving yes?  One thing that might help is have her buy that vibrator and you use it to masturbate her, and she can masturbate you either before, after, or at an entirely different time.  That could do a couple of things: it could integrate masturbation into your sex lives, so it's not an either/or and your masturbating doesn't mean she doesn't satisfy you, one, and two, if for a period of time one of you is entirely focused on pleasing the other, and the other one is entirely focused on being pleased, it takes the guesswork out of the giving and taking thing when you have intercourse.  Bottom line it may just improve you sex lives and squelch her abandonment fears because look see, I really can satisfy him, and look see, he's very focused on pleasing me right now.  Something to think about?

[Grey Kitty]

She knows this, and yet argued that the idea of me masturbating is disgusting to her and if I continue she is going to buy a vibrator so she can "also contribute to our sexless marriage." 

Before I address how to communicate with her, I'd like to start with some questions about how you want to deal with this, as I don't agree with her premise at all.

First, I don't think masturbating is wrong or disgusting. I'd encourage her to buy a vibrator if she wants one. In your shoes, next time she threatens to buy a vibrator, I'd encourage her to do so, and express my interest in watching her use it. (Said in a really sexy way!) OK, the latter part would just be a provocation for her, so don't you say it. If it was my sex partner, I really would be interested, but I'm more sex positive than a lot of people are.

Similarly, offering to let your partner watch you (or otherwise be involved) when you masturbate isn't a good idea--She's already told you she thinks it is disgusting, so it would be a turnoff for her. And her (likely abusive) reaction would be a turnoff for you.

Second, I don't think your private (solo) sex life is anybody else's business, just like your private thoughts (including any sexual fantasies you might have) is your business, not hers. She doesn't have a right to know about it, or tell you what to do about it. NOTE: I said solo and thoughts... .if anybody else gets involved (outside your own head!), your romantic partner does have rights to be involved/interested/informed/etc.

And no these aren't in conflict... .I would be interested in watching my partner, I wouldn't do it if she wasn't comfortable. Most people are at least a little ashamed, so letting somebody watch is a scary and vulnerable thing. I did talk about it with one ex of mine, and she wasn't upset at me for asking, but did refuse. And yes, that ex was sex positive, at least compared to the average American woman.

Anyhow, back to what you might want to do, ampersandalz... .A lot of that comes down to what YOU believe about sex, and you haven't made that 100% clear.

1. If you see nothing wrong with masturbating, do it. If your partner freaks out about it, try to find places/times/ways that she doesn't see--Don't create conflict you don't need.

2. Understand the issue she is launching into you about isn't the reason she's doing it. For her own reasons, which likely have little if anything to do with you, she's upset, hurt, and angry, and it is coming out in the form of rejecting you (which is emotional abuse, at least the way she's doing it... .the ice queen thing), or direct verbal/emotional abuse (the fights and criticism).

So if you address the criticism, either by JADEing, or by capitulating, it won't really help, because that isn't the source of the problems. Something new will always pop up. Until her mood changes, at least.

3. Stop those circular arguments. Next time she brings up masturbation, I'd suggest you tell her that it isn't her business, and you aren't going to discuss with her how often you do or don't. And that the only thing she can do to stop you is if she wants enough great sex that you don't have the energy or interest in anything else.

3.5. You might consider informing her of the boundary I mentioned above--that your solo sex life isn't her business and you aren't going to discuss it with her. If you do, here's one tip about setting/enforcing a boundary like this:

You don't need to do the impossible--convince her that she is wrong and you are right. That you "should" do this.

All you need to do is convince her that you are not going to move on this one, even if you are wrong. Or sick, twisted, and disgusting, or whatever. And she just has to live with it.

That "impossible" goal is what leads you into these horrible abusive circular arguments.

[ampersandalz]

The other night she tried to tell me not to masturbate any more, how she knows it's because she doesn't satisfy me. I assured her this isn't the case... .

... .She knows this, and yet argued that the idea of me masturbating is disgusting to her and if I continue she is going to buy a vibrator so she can "also contribute to our sexless marriage."

Is it really disgusting to her, or does she use that in an attempt to soothe abandonment fears, since she equates masturbating to her not satisfying you, so you've abandoned her sexually?

We can either have sex to take pleasure, to give pleasure, or both.  But when we "masturbate" someone else we're purely giving yes?  One thing that might help is have her buy that vibrator and you use it to masturbate her, and she can masturbate you either before, after, or at an entirely different time.  That could do a couple of things: it could integrate masturbation into your sex lives, so it's not an either/or and your masturbating doesn't mean she doesn't satisfy you, one, and two, if for a period of time one of you is entirely focused on pleasing the other, and the other one is entirely focused on being pleased, it takes the guesswork out of the giving and taking thing when you have intercourse.  Bottom line it may just improve you sex lives and squelch her abandonment fears because look see, I really can satisfy him, and look see, he's very focused on pleasing me right now.  Something to think about?

I agree with this, though I feel she would be opposed to it if I asked her.  My confidence in this area of our lives took a nosedive after the issue described in my first post and while I've worked hard to build it back up, there are so many guidelines in place that I feel like the fun we used to have sexually has been drastically diminished.  I'll take this moment to reiterate the fact (or maybe state for the first time, not sure exactly what I've divulged) that talking to her about things, bringing any issues to light, trying to "fix" anything is almost impossible, as she either gets very upset, feels bad about herself, or simply brushes it off, meaning nothing ever gets accomplished.  I thought I was being honest, straightforward, and fair by stating that we simply have different sex drives (and that is ABSOLUTELY OKAY, I reassured her over and over again), and her response was simply that it only makes her feel worse about herself, more insecure.

We dealt for months with an issue of me not "initiating enough," though every time I tried, she would deny me.  I realized after months that, for some reason, we never had sex when we were enjoying one another's company.  If we spent an entire day together (rather than just passively hanging around watching TV) or went out and had a meal/drink/great conversation, I'd think "this is the perfect opportunity" and she'd turn me down almost every time (and many other times acting as if she was definitely into the idea, and then changing her mind at the last minute and acting like I was being unreasonable even showing an inkling of disappointment).  Noticing this also helped me notice that she only ever seemed to want sex when I was tired, half asleep, or visibly detached due to things she said or ways she acted towards me, but never in a way that feels natural or even apologetic for her actions - actually, she usually acts like it's my obligation to her and if she doesn't "get hers" it's my fault that she can't sleep after the fact.  This is a huge pressure on me, someone who is naturally anxious and dealing with self-esteem issues, and even led to me having difficulties becoming aroused.  

She tells me I should initiate because she "always wants it," but her actions reflect the opposite. When I bring this up, she says "well, I don't want it in the afternoon or after I've eaten or when I've had a long day."  To that, I can't help but feel defeated because, well, by the time we get in bed I'm exhausted and most of her days are long days (she works a full day, seven days a week, the only exceptions being on a rare break or a day that she's too exhausted to actually bring herself to do the work - understandably so, I don't blame her).  She says "I know these are a lot of guidelines, but you have to work around them. Besides, you don't do anything to make me feel sexual.  You don't do sexy things to get me in the mood." and when I ask what she would like from me, she just gets... .hurtful.  Last time she said "I don't know, just look at yourself and how you act when we sit on the couch. Is that supposed to get me in the mood?" But she'll never explain what this means or what I'm doing.  I told her she was cruel for saying that to me and I didn't understand and she broke down and insisted I apologize for calling her cruel and that it was a mean thing to say.

Again, sorry for the long post, but I guess the gist of my feelings overall is that being raised in a "sex is taboo" conservative environment made me feel very uncomfortable with the topic and "dirty" for thinking about it at any length. While I've tried to get past these feelings and I don't feel they've tremendously impeded our sex life, they are difficult to work with and matters are made worse by the fact that I cannot trust anything I say or do because I feel like it will be used against me in the future.  We can have great sex one day and I could be told months later that I said or did something that made her feel objectified.  She can ask me to do something or act like she likes something and then later tell me she doesn't like it.  Going well past this, she has given the idea of more "out of the box" things such as threesomes, videotaping ourselves, having sex in different parts of the house, etc. and I pretty much say no without other consideration simply because I feel like I'm being tricked.  The threesome topic came up with pretty heavy consistency for awhile and I just said no, I'm not interested, I don't want that and she continued asking me why, saying it's every man's dream, and she doesn't believe me, but I know if I agreed to it (even if it never happened), she'd turn it into ammo, saying I "want other people." Hell, I only felt comfortable telling her I watched pornography because she had said to me in passing that she was doing so and had suggested we watch it together years ago to try and "set the mood."

[ampersandalz]

She knows this, and yet argued that the idea of me masturbating is disgusting to her and if I continue she is going to buy a vibrator so she can "also contribute to our sexless marriage." 

Before I address how to communicate with her, I'd like to start with some questions about how you want to deal with this, as I don't agree with her premise at all.

First, I don't think masturbating is wrong or disgusting. I'd encourage her to buy a vibrator if she wants one. In your shoes, next time she threatens to buy a vibrator, I'd encourage her to do so, and express my interest in watching her use it. (Said in a really sexy way!) OK, the latter part would just be a provocation for her, so don't you say it. If it was my sex partner, I really would be interested, but I'm more sex positive than a lot of people are.

Similarly, offering to let your partner watch you (or otherwise be involved) when you masturbate isn't a good idea--She's already told you she thinks it is disgusting, so it would be a turnoff for her. And her (likely abusive) reaction would be a turnoff for you.

I also do not think it is disgusting.  She has been aware that I have done this for years, the entirety of our relationship even, and did not take issue with it until the pornography situation came up.  When she threatened to buy a vibrator, I encouraged that, told her it does not bother me and I think it's a good idea.  I have responded this way in the past, even years ago when she mentioned it in a positive sense, but never did it.  According to her, she has never masturbated and her problem with me masturbating to pornography is that "she believed I could not get that feeling from anyone but her."  I think that is an unfair and unrealistic assumption that puts me on a pedestal that no one, myself or anyone else, could ever exist on.

Second, I don't think your private (solo) sex life is anybody else's business, just like your private thoughts (including any sexual fantasies you might have) is your business, not hers. She doesn't have a right to know about it, or tell you what to do about it. NOTE: I said solo and thoughts... .if anybody else gets involved (outside your own head!), your romantic partner does have rights to be involved/interested/informed/etc.

And no these aren't in conflict... .I would be interested in watching my partner, I wouldn't do it if she wasn't comfortable. Most people are at least a little ashamed, so letting somebody watch is a scary and vulnerable thing. I did talk about it with one ex of mine, and she wasn't upset at me for asking, but did refuse. And yes, that ex was sex positive, at least compared to the average American woman.

I agree with this, but I can attest that she wholeheartedly does not (though again, this is another double standard).  She has told me for years about the guys she finds attractive, if they arouse her, etc., but if I so much as even state an actress in a movie is attractive she will chastise me for it unendingly (even if she insisted that there's no way I couldn't find said actress attractive).  I do not fantasize about anyone but her and have told her this, but she has simply decided she doesn't believe me.

Anyhow, back to what you might want to do, ampersandalz... .A lot of that comes down to what YOU believe about sex, and you haven't made that 100% clear.

1. If you see nothing wrong with masturbating, do it. If your partner freaks out about it, try to find places/times/ways that she doesn't see--Don't create conflict you don't need.

I never do it around her - she's never even aware of when or where it happens. She used to ask me to do it around her, years ago, but the other night was insisting I tell her where, when, how often, etc. just so she could tell me how disgusting it is that I do it.

2. Understand the issue she is launching into you about isn't the reason she's doing it. For her own reasons, which likely have little if anything to do with you, she's upset, hurt, and angry, and it is coming out in the form of rejecting you (which is emotional abuse, at least the way she's doing it... .the ice queen thing), or direct verbal/emotional abuse (the fights and criticism).

So if you address the criticism, either by JADEing, or by capitulating, it won't really help, because that isn't the source of the problems. Something new will always pop up. Until her mood changes, at least.

And I guess this is where I get scared, because I don't know how to fight that.  I can't live up to impossible standards, I can't continue going through situations where I'm forced to answer questions in ways that either a. upset her or b. she doesn't believe.  "Walking on eggshells" to a tee, really.

3. Stop those circular arguments. Next time she brings up masturbation, I'd suggest you tell her that it isn't her business, and you aren't going to discuss with her how often you do or don't. And that the only thing she can do to stop you is if she wants enough great sex that you don't have the energy or interest in anything else.

I agree with this entirely and did my best to work towards it in this instance and I do believe it worked, to a degree.  The argument ended by me simply stating we weren't arguing in a productive way, we should spend the little time we get together dwelling on positive things, and that I'm sorry she feels the way she does, but I don't feel a need to change my actions.

3.5. You might consider informing her of the boundary I mentioned above--that your solo sex life isn't her business and you aren't going to discuss it with her. If you do, here's one tip about setting/enforcing a boundary like this:

You don't need to do the impossible--convince her that she is wrong and you are right. That you "should" do this.

All you need to do is convince her that you are not going to move on this one, even if you are wrong. Or sick, twisted, and disgusting, or whatever. And she just has to live with it.

That "impossible" goal is what leads you into these horrible abusive circular arguments.

This is a good way to put it, that last part specifically.  That if what I do makes me those things to her, so be it.  I don't foresee any type of argument going well that involves me telling her that really anything isn't her business (because she believes everything I do is very much her business, thus the control issues, guilt tripping, etc.), but I do agree with that point and will have to find a way to present it gently if it comes up again.

Again, thank you for your help.  This is an oddly sensitive subject for me, as I stated above, so being able to talk about it comfortably and without judgment is freeing and makes me feel a little less "dirty."

[Grey Kitty]

We dealt for months with an issue of me not "initiating enough," though every time I tried, she would deny me.  I realized after months that, for some reason, we never had sex when we were enjoying one another's company.  If we spent an entire day together (rather than just passively hanging around watching TV) or went out and had a meal/drink/great conversation, I'd think "this is the perfect opportunity" and she'd turn me down almost every time (and many other times acting as if she was definitely into the idea, and then changing her mind at the last minute and acting like I was being unreasonable even showing an inkling of disappointment).  Noticing this also helped me notice that she only ever seemed to want sex when I was tired, half asleep, or visibly detached due to things she said or ways she acted towards me, but never in a way that feels natural or even apologetic for her actions - actually, she usually acts like it's my obligation to her and if she doesn't "get hers" it's my fault that she can't sleep after the fact.  This is a huge pressure on me, someone who is naturally anxious and dealing with self-esteem issues, and even led to me having difficulties becoming aroused. 

She tells me I should initiate because she "always wants it," but her actions reflect the opposite.

If actions and words don't agree, I'd believe the actions. Aside, my advice on the dating board is that when you get a mixed message like that, my answer is "No, you are too messed up for me to be in a r/s with, I don't want to deal with the confusion What the heck do I do with this mixed message anyways?"

But if you look at her actions, it is pretty clear what she wants. And most likely, she doesn't realize it herself--meaning that she will deny she's doing that to you, and most likely, to herself as well, but won't change the the pattern.

She wants you to initiate so she can reject you. And if that doesn't work, she wants to berate you for not initiating. (And reject you)

And I guess this is where I get scared, because I don't know how to fight that.  I can't live up to impossible standards, I can't continue going through situations where I'm forced to answer questions in ways that either a. upset her or b. she doesn't believe.  "Walking on eggshells" to a tee, really.

Don't answer. I've said things like "You are putting me in a no-win situation and I'm not playing that game." You can compare it to the famous ":)o you still beat your wife?" question, where any answer you give implicitly acknowledges that you at least USED to beat your wife... .or not. Once again, proving to her she is putting you in an unfair question is the wrong answer. Proving to her that you aren't going to play that game is much easier.

I don't foresee any type of argument going well that involves me telling her that really anything isn't her business (because she believes everything I do is very much her business, thus the control issues, guilt tripping, etc.), but I do agree with that point and will have to find a way to present it gently if it comes up again.

You are very much right--she isn't going to like being forced to accept that. And if my marriage was any indication, getting anything like that will only happen with her kicking and screaming all the way.

Please don't let that stop you though. My wife and I went through several rounds of this kind of thing during the last ~5 years of our marriage. We had a joint email account, and added separate email accounts, and gradually shifted more to using the separate ones. We shared a computer and eventually got separate ones. We also went from one phone to two cell phones. My wife kicked and screamed about the change each time in some way or other. And after the dust settled, both she and I were happier, and she acknowledged it.

So don't try to make the point gently. Make the change when you are ready to/need to. Hold your boundary firmly. Live through the extinction burst that is coming. (Hope the r/s survives; most likely it will) And trust that it will make your life better than it was before. For both you and her. Don't expect her to acknowledge it. That I got this was a real bonus... .but you will see that she is more at peace even if she doesn't admit it.

Again, thank you for your help.  This is an oddly sensitive subject for me, as I stated above, so being able to talk about it comfortably and without judgment is freeing and makes me feel a little less "dirty."

You say that like feeling "dirty" is a bad thing 

And you are welcome.

[ampersandalz]

Thank you again for the insight - you're absolutely right on all points.  To be blunt, I just want to feel loved and wanted again.  Going through life like this is painful.  I go home at night and feel positive towards her, as positive as I can be considering I find it impossible to relax while she's home (and she's always home), but I look at her and see the woman I love and want it to work.

When I'm out of the house, however, my brain is turbulent.  I feel conflicted about what's best for me, best for her, best for us -- if things will ever get better (she's on track to be a doctor, so I can't help but wonder if the inevitable time we'll spend away from each other due to work schedules will be more or less beneficial for us, seeing as we get almost no separate time save for when we're working now).  I wonder about what life would bring me if I were back in my hometown or alone or with someone else.  I don't want it to sound like I actively want other people, but my brain operates in so many "what ifs."  What if I stay and I'm unhappy forever?  What if I leave and it's a tremendous mistake?  What if I stay and she just leaves me?  It doesn't help that we've drifted apart over the past few years in terms of interests.  The crossover interests we had have all but disappeared because she just says she "doesn't have time for those things" or she's "grown out of them... ." and that's fine, everyone has their own interests, but it doesn't make the situation any easier.

Again, thank you for your help.  My own depression and anxiety make me wary of even what I type here, but what I feel is what I feel and support/logic make me at least feel some relief.

[ampersandalz]

Something I'm trying to cope with -- my wife seems completely incapable of realizing that she is doing or saying anything inflammatory.

I am currently participating in a monthly writing event that requires me to take roughly 1-2 hours of each evening to myself to write.  The first night went well, a little bit of her joking around about me ignoring her, but nothing I couldn't brush off.  Second night, however, she said she was just going to go to bed really early and let me take the living room to myself since I wouldn't be tired then.  This sounded great -- she's got a cold, so I assured her I'd be just a room away and all was fine.  The time came to go to bed and she asked me to sit with her until she fell asleep.  This was alright... .I would sit for 30 minutes and then have some me time.  After I agreed, she told me she'd rather I just sit in bed with her and write.  I explained I was afraid I'd wake her, typing is kind of loud, etc.  She asked me to just try since she was sick.  Okay.

I was slightly frustrated when we got in bed, but did my best to hide it.  I grabbed my laptop and it started updating, which took awhile.  Before this she said she wanted to play on her phone til she got sleepy.  I kinda sat around until she looked over and said "you don't even want to hang out with me, you're just sitting there staring at the blank screen."  I assured her this wasn't the case, I just didn't want to crowd her space since she was just playing on her phone.  She didn't respond and said it was fine. 

Since writing is a creative process, I really need time to "get in the zone."  This is much harder in the room with anyone else, but I did my best.  I put headphones in and tried to listen to some calm music to hone in on the project.  I took out my headphones to make sure it wasn't too loud and she suddenly rolls over and stares at me with this... .look on her face and says "what the f**k are you laughing at?"  And I was confused, I hadn't laughed or even made a sound.  I told her I just took the headphones out to make sure the music wasn't loud.  She looked at me again and said "you aren't even writing. what are you f**cking laughing at?" then got up and went to the bathroom.  I didn't say anything, she got in bed and rolled over. 

As soon as I found she was asleep, I turned music back on and tried to focus.  I'll be honest, at this point I just felt worn down from the week.  My emotions have been tossing and turning over all of this and I was able to have a heart to heart with a close friend, so I felt like emotions were running high.  Next thing I know, I'm sitting up alone in bed, sobbing.  I tried to stay quiet, but before long she rolled over and looked at me again, saying "what's wrong with you?  sorry, I just don't have time for this right now.  sorry for making you hang out with me and ruining your night."  Got up and went to the bathroom again. 

I calm down, sit still and say not to worry about it, nothing to talk about, just having a moment.  She stays quiet for a little then says "you know what the problem is?  I have no self control when it comes to you.  I know I need sleep and to be responsible, but I just want to hang out with you so I stay up late when you don't want to hang out with me anyway.  Guess I shouldn't do that any more." 

Sorry again for the long post, but it's like she completely misses the point of what upsets me.  I tell her the things that she says, that I find them hurtful, but it's as if they don't exist at all.  She thinks I'm upset for her wanting to hang out or because she asked me to come to bed and no matter how many times I say that's not the case, she doesn't even realize the things she says or the way she speaks to me.  Just had to get that off my chest.  Trying my best to take things less personally, but without a support system here it's really, really difficult to be objective and hardened to her words.