Oh boy...

[obliv326]

I wouldn't be changing it, per se. Maybe making a compromise, which is part of the whole DEARMAN thing.

Granted, I am very uncomfortable because I know that even if she wants to reach out and agrees with me 100% she'll still push it back more and more, esp if she thinks I'm angry. I suppose I am baiting the hook, but I think it is something that will appeal to her without altering the boundary.

Here's what I was thinking of writing:

So, I know that neither of us likes tension. I also know that in the best circumstances you don't like dealing with things like the current situation. When you've overwhelmed and freaking out its even worse, so I'll step up and make a proposal that I think will work for both of us.

If you can do your best to make a concerted effort to have a real life relationship with me... .Not just text but we talk on the phone and we hang out when we can... .We can table it for the time being. I do need things to move in that direction, but I know it's an overwhelming time and I'm willing to compromise on the time in order to get rid of the tension. If that's something that is okay with you, then don't worry about even responding to this part. Just write AC regarding the next paragraph... .

Because wee have stuff to talk about... .Did you see the walking dead yesterday? I want to know your reax.

Don't be oppositional with me, missy! I'd like to be able to wish you an actual happy birthday on your birthday!

---------------------

It seems to me like a chance to be mature and settle an issue which I'm pretty sure she'd like settled as well. it alleviates one source of tension for both of us and I don't think it looks desperate. I don't believe it undercuts the previous message at all. I'm standing my ground, and I'm acknowledging that she is probably not in the place to do something she finds stressful.

i suppose she could turn me down, but I think it's a compromise that works for the immediate situation.

But yes... .I am uncomfortable. I don't want another 6 months of the silent treatment just because she will avoid dealing with it if she gets a chance. It seems like sometimes when you're dealing with these situations and you know they won't do the right thing, you have to be willing to be the grown up and try to work out a compromise.

That's my thinking anyway.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[obliv326]

It seems like I can either take things into my own hands and offer a compromise, which, again, is part of DEARMAN, or wait until she finally decides to take what would essentially be the same steps... .But even if she wants to it might take her months. In fact, when she reached out to me a few weeks back, the first thing she said was "I've been putting this off for awhile... ." Who knows how long? And everyday was torture for me. Why go through that again if I can resolve the situation without backing down on my boundaries but giving her a way out also?

Also, is there any information here or elsewhere about the whole "closeness of communication" situation? If I could get a grasp on that it would help
Me a great deal.

[obliv326]

And never mind now... .She wrote me last night

[obliv326]

I just want to thank everyone again for their help. It was a trying few days and being able to come here and get a friendly response and a place to vent meant a lot.

I didn't end up sending the message I was considering. She wrote and apologized, and we talked briefly. I still have work to do but I hope that the fact that she reached out means something good.

I would like to know if there is somewhere here or online where I can learn more about the phenomenon where some PwBPD have issues with certain kinds of communication, or they keep certain people at a distance in some ways while bringing them close in others? This will really help me if I can understand this issue a bit better. Right now it is very hard not to take it personally, and I would like to be able to get over that.

But thank you again. It means a lot

[Turkish]

You've been here a while.  Have you looked through the lessons on the board?  Or those on the Improving Board?  I know it's a ton of material. If you have very specific questions,  perhaps we can direct you appropriately. 

[obliv326]

I have read a lot of that material but I haven't seen any mention of that issue in particular. I can't remember if it was yiu, but someone had said that their ex had issues communicating in certain methods as well, and I was wondering if there was anything that might shed some light on that.

To be specific and just lay it out there, what I want to know is why it took months for her to give me her number, why after I'd known her for several months she lied to me about her last name? Why would she never meet with me unless someone else was there... .And the week we broke up over that very issue, she goes to a sleazy club, meets a guy, and in minutes has given him what it took me months to earn reluctantly? She slept with the guy the next day. Bragged about him on social media, when she never even let slip the hint that she knew me? And FYI, I'm not someone who you'd deny knowing. If anything, most people would acknowledge I'm more attractive than her. I can't see how that isn't personal, and I'm hoping someone can show me why this might be the case?

Thabks again. Appreciate all your help

[Turkish]

We can go down deep rabbit holes trying to arm chair psychoanalize people in our lives.  A lot of conclusions can turn out to be wrong.  A lot of members here have done it,  including myself.  Learning more about BPD and what possibly drives her emotions can help.  While desperately seeking intimacy, a pwBPD can also be driven off by the prospect. It could be that she liked you a lot.  A casual hook up,  or the prospect thereof,  isn't really intimacy.  I wouldn't even try to elicit an explanation from her.  Even if she knows why,  she isn't likely to be open about it. 

It behooves you to digest the communication tools in lesson 3 on the Improving Board. We talk a lot about validating a pwBPD, but perhaps a better start would be to learn how not to be invalidating (see here for more). It would go a long way towards her feeling that it's safe to talk to you.  I think being brief gives her a smaller target.  Saying to much at once might be too much. 

[obliv326]

What you say makes a lot of sense. I actually know that I did a lot of invalidating before I suspected she had BPD. It was hard not to. Something would happen that was a problem, sometimes bigger but usually not so much. It could have been solved with a simple 1-2 minute conversation... .And she would go to the end of the earth to keep it from happening. And then, pretty soon, the avoidance was an issue, and at some point I woukd have to sort of corner her and it would all come out. And of course, she wouldn't want to hear any of it, so it just turned her dodging my attacks. I'm sure I was her worst nightmare.

Which isn't to say I was wrong, of course. I'm normally such an even keeled person, esp in relationships where I like the other person. So the fact that I never knew what to do it how to communicate or get my needs met was frustrating as hell.

Since I learned about BPD and some of the tools, I've been trying to use them. We've had a lot fewer arguments, and except for one time when I had a few too many beers before we had a conversation, I've done my best to validate and de-escalate. I don't know how much she's noticed because she has attacked me a couple times, but I've done my best to be someone who doesn't stress her out.

Fwiw, I do think she liked me a lot (in fact, we actually officially started our relationship exactly a year ago. It's her birthday) I'm pretty sure of it. I think she might have resented me at certain points. I think she kind of takes me for granted now. But I think I can change that.

I did try eliciting explanations from her about certain things... .Quite a few times. Of course I never got an answer. I might get a denial of part of what I said, but never an acknowledgement or attempt at an answer. Not even an "I don't know". Instead there would be some excuse. Just like there was last week.

So yeah... .I know she won't ever tell me. She probably can't. That's why I want to do the research and see what I can find out. Maybe I can get some questions answered that way.

Thanks again, though. Your help is really appreciated

[C.Stein]

Communication issues are not unique to BPD, nor are dislike of certain types of communication.  I would suggest to pay less attention to how communication occurs and more about what is communicated when it does.

I think she kind of takes me for granted now. But I think I can change that.

What makes you think this?

[obliv326]

Communication issues aren't unique to BPD. But in this case it wasn't just one form of communication. It's being around me. I get treated differently than pretty much any random schmoe who runs across her. She refuses to be alone with me. That isn't okay. That isn't a relationship. She wants and gets certain things from me. She's told me she cares about me deeply. She reaches out and brings me back into he life. But she refuses to spend time with me, even in a public place.

That not only makes a relationship impossible. It makes me feel like she's afraid of me. That hurts me deeply, bc I've tried SO hard to earn her trust. So the form of communication is important, bc I'm not wiling to have that kind of relationship and be some guy she uses for support and to get a certain type of validation while other people get to spend time with her.

That has to change

[C.Stein]

Communication issues aren't unique to BPD. But in this case it wasn't just one form of communication. It's being around me. I get treated differently than pretty much any random schmoe who runs across her. She refuses to be alone with me. That isn't okay. That isn't a relationship. She wants and gets certain things from me. She's told me she cares about me deeply. She reaches out and brings me back into he life. But she refuses to spend time with me, even in a public place.

She is too emotionally close to you.  She may feel exposed, at risk, engulfed, so the only thing she knows how to do is to push you away, keep you at arms length ... .

That not only makes a relationship impossible. It makes me feel like she's afraid of me. That hurts me deeply, bc I've tried SO hard to earn her trust. So the form of communication is important, bc I'm not wiling to have that kind of relationship and be some guy she uses for support and to get a certain type of validation while other people get to spend time with her.

That has to change

I understand where you are coming from Obliv, but what do you hope to gain by forcing her hand?

[obliv326]

Too emotionally close is something I can understand. No one has ever put it out there just like that, so thank you! It was extremely helpful to see that written like that.

What do I hope to gain? Well, right now this is an untenable situation. If someone could tell me that she will eventually stop holding me at a distance and let me be close to her in every way, then I'd be more inclined to bide my time. But everyone has told me that there's every reason to expect that she won't change her behavior on her own, and if she gets her way I may spend my whole life as a guy she texts a couple times a day, while other guys get to be with her. Granted, none of them will probably stick and I will, but that's not worth it.

I'm not okay with being in this position. She's aware of it. I'm not going to constantly push her, but she does know this is what I expect and need, frankly. So what I hope to gain is a chance at a real relationship. Or for her to decide she can't take that step and that will be the reason for me to cut ties. Either position is preferable to being relegated to 15 seconds of texts per day if I'm lucky. The reason I believe that I can change the situation is because I think she wants me in her life. I told her this was a boundary. I'll give her time to work on it, but what I'm gaining is freeing myself from a position that makes me feel bad. Whatever her reasoning, it hurts me. I don't want a relationship with her like this, so I'm gaining by not being in that position anymore. In this instance, in looking out for me. Her needs are being met. They will still be met if we talk on the phone or hang out in person. I'm not particularly concerned about her compulsion to avoid me anymore. We are emotionally very close, but I've done my best to step back from doing any engulfing behaviors. I know I've done a lot of that, which is why I'm willing to give her some time. But I've told her what I need, and that's what I need.

It's been a year, and every time she lied to me or didn't give me a chance to talk or see her, it made me feel terrible. Every time some random got a chance with her in person, it made me feel even worse. I took her at her word that she acted this way all the time and she was just really cautious with everyone. That turned out to be a lie. So I've done my time sacrificing my self esteem for her comfort. I'm not willing to make that trade off anymore.

Tha said, I do think you're right on in your assessment. Are there exercises or tools you can use to ease the feelings she might have about engulfment?

[patientandclear]

FWIW that is very similar to the boundary I ended up setting and holding with my ex. He wants/ed me in his life so sometimes he's sidled up to trying to meet that boundary. So far, he can't. Explanation is fear of it all blowing up and hurting too much.

I like you cannot be my ex's de facto primary partner and safe harbor and deep daily emotional connection if he's bestowing other more conventional trappings of intimacy on others (on his case, complete with the belief in his mind and shared with the other person that it's a profound transcendent love each time). So I respect where you're coming from.

On engulfment: think "feral cat," and don't grab. But--those feelings will arise for her no matter what you do. You can give her time and space and to the extent that feels comfortable to you, let her take the lead much of the time on contact.

[C.Stein]

It's been a year, and every time she lied to me or didn't give me a chance to talk or see her, it made me feel terrible. Every time some random got a chance with her in person, it made me feel even worse. I took her at her word that she acted this way all the time and she was just really cautious with everyone. That turned out to be a lie. So I've done my time sacrificing my self esteem for her comfort. I'm not willing to make that trade off anymore.

Tha said, I do think you're right on in your assessment. Are there exercises or tools you can use to ease the feelings she might have about engulfment?

You have a reasonable expectations here obliv.  For myself personally, the lies would be the boundary that should never be crossed.  Deceptions and lies is what destroyed me and my relationship.

It is hard to say what her real reasons are for keeping you at arms length.  It certain seems to me she may be scared to get too close to you emotionally.  I can relate with that feeling all too well.  It also might be because she feels engulfed by your behavior towards her.  The latter you can do something about, the former is something that takes time and trust.

[obliv326]

Thanks again for your replies. As always they were incredibly helpful.

In the meantime, it was her birthday last week. I wished her happy birthday (it was Wednesday) and didn't hear from her all weekend. Of course she spent the whole weekend in sleazy clubs.

I sent her a pic for Halloween today, and I had decided that I was pretty much backing off. I was tired of that kind of attention and relationship, and the fact that she had time for the people in a sleazy club but not me sort of did something. She wrote again today and pretty quickly said she wished I lived closer so I could come up and walk with her tonight. That sounded positive, so I responded, keeping it brief and trying to not betray emotion or say a lot. She told me she was scared bc she had a bad weekend, but didn't want to upset me. I told her I'd be fine, and she said someone had tried to rape her on Saturday.

On the one hand, my initial reaction is that I'm not sure I believe her. I hate that, but it seems like wverytime we talk it's something sad and tragic. Plus, she's lied to me before. And she probably thinks I'm mad at her and this is a way to back me down.

On the other hand, it is exactly the kind of place where that would happen and the way she's been presenting herself it was almost bound to happen. I don't want to sound like I'm blaming the victim here, but when you constantly refer to yourself as a slut, and really show that you are aggressively courting sex, some idiotic guy is bound to get the wrong idea. And I can absolutely believe it would happen.

So my question is what do I do? I can't very well express doubt, so I've told her I'm behind her whatever she wants to do. If she wants to talk, I'll listen. If she wants to talk about something else, I'll do that. If she wants to take steps, yes. I'm behind her no matter what.

Is there a way to handle this? I'm validating my tail off, but I don't know what to do about this one... .

[C.Stein]

So my question is what do I do? I can't very well express doubt, so I've told her I'm behind her whatever she wants to do. If she wants to talk, I'll listen. If she wants to talk about something else, I'll do that. If she wants to take steps, yes. I'm behind her no matter what.

Is there a way to handle this? I'm validating my tail off, but I don't know what to do about this one... .

Given what you have said you have good reason to doubt.  Perhaps she is exaggerating, distorting reality and playing the victim in order to take attention away from the fact she blew you off all weekend.  Perhaps some guy did try to go a little to far, although what can you do about it?  She puts you in a difficult position here as she has shown in the past to have the capability and willingness to cry wolf.  I personally would sympathize with her if she brings it up again but not take it any further.

Thing to take away from this is one sobering fact ... .you don't trust her to be honest with you.  What kind of relationship do you expect to have with this woman if you can't trust anything she says?

[obliv326]

That's exactly what I will do. Like I said, no matter how much I might doubt, I simply can't start questioning her account here. I really REALLY hope she wouldn't lie about that... .And for what it's worth, this HAS happened to her before. From what I could gather, she has had people attempt to rape her several times, and they have actually done it at least twice. I don't believe, for a second, that it should be a woman's responsibility to avoid rape, but when it happens that often, I think something needs to change. Maybe stop spending time around those people, if nothing else. Clearly someone is getting the wrong idea, and I don't want her getting hurt. And fwiw, I do believe her.

Typically, if she isn't telling the truth, she trips herself up. But I'm going to take her at her word on this one while remaining privately skeptical. I'll be supportive. If she is lying, though, then that's it. Ik cutting ties, and I'm letting people know. That kind of person is dangerous to have around and there needs to be consequences for those actions.

As for the honesty issue... .You're absolutely right. I guess the hope is that she has learned to value me and therefore tell the truth? Naive? Probably. But that's where hope lives, I suppose. Also, I completely expected her to blow me off this weekend. It was not only Halloween weekend but her birthday was last week. I'm sure she packed as much partying in as possible, so it didn't surprise me.

Anyway, that's where this is.

[obliv326]

So I found out that she wasn't lying. She did nearly get raped. I'm glad that wasn't a lie. I'm not glad that it happened.

It would be nice to think that it would make her realize that she's trusting the wrong people and not trusting the right ones (this is at least the 6x someone has attempted to rape her. At least 3 have been able to actually do so). It certainly doesn't make me feel any better that she trusts people who do this to her, but doesn't trust me... .I immediately think I must be 20x the creep those guys are if she refuses to even be alone with me... .If her radar is that far off but I'm pinging it... .What's funny is, MOST women I know feel IMMEDIATELY safe with me, and they should. I would do anything to keep them safe. I absolutely respect their limits and, frankly, I don't just see them as a sex object.

Anyway, the drama I deal with for this girl... .

[C.Stein]

It would be nice to think that it would make her realize that she's trusting the wrong people and not trusting the right ones

Why do you think she is putting herself into situations that can lead to this?

[obliv326]

Why? That's an incredibly good question. I'd have to play psychiatrist a bit to answer, but what I think is happening is that she is someone who never got a lot of attention... .Her parents were pretty neglectful, she didn't have a lot of friends... .And she found she could get attention for her sexuality. It almost doesn't matter to her if it's good attention or bad. It's something... .Validation... .It's interesting bc when we had our fight that led to our "break up", that's the first place she went... .Immediately jumped back into that.

I was actually mentioning to someone's couple weeks ago that I was amazed she hadn't been raped in the last few months. I'm really sorry that it happened to her. So sorry... .But we live in a world where there are lots if clueless guys, and while you shouldn't have to be concerned with that, if you ignore that fact you can get yiurself in trouble. I hate that it's that way, but unfortunately it is.

[obliv326]

So quickly... .for the past few weeks, it has been a little less dramatic. I haven't heard from her as much, but I know she's been dealing with her stuff, and I know the attempted rape understandably upset and scared her. In response, she's started doing stuff with her church, which I suppose can be good or bad, and just yesterday told me that she plans on leaving the "sex club" thing behind. This is really good news, as I think it was very bad for her in pretty much every way, and was a prime example of the way pwBPD sometimes undertake damaging activities after a negative situation. And personally, it was deeply hurtful to me, so if she goes through with that, I think it is a win win all around for everyone.

She also has seemed to be in a better mood on occasion, and we've had some okay, somewhat pleasant conversations.

I don't always know how to respond when she says something. Like yesterday, when she said that she was leaving the whole sex club scene, I asked if something had happened, and offered to listen if she needed it. Then told her that I just wanted her to be okay and that whatever she felt like she needed to do, I was behind her. She responded that nothing in particular had happened, but she felt like she didn't need to be around people who didn't care about her. I replied that I understood and that this made sense.

I'm doing my best to validate, and not overstate anything. At the same time, I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot. Is there ever a time to just clarify, or acknowledge that I'm not just repeating myself and I am present? That I don't always know what to say but I want her to know I'm with her and supporting her? Or am I overthinking again?

Thanks in advance for your help.