How the self can get effected

[Walkabout73]

Dear all,
what I´m really asking myself, also from my own experiences with an UexBPD GF, is, how these experiences we all, that are posting here, have/had with a BPD partner effects our Selfs on a deep level... .So which kind of "I" do we develop by experiences constantly a "BPD Thou"? When we cannot open up our fellings, our experiences of us, of the relationship, of the world with our BPD partners, because we have constantly "playing chess" with them, thinking about, how we can trigger them (and try to avoid that), and how they can and do paint black, when we honestly open up... .what happens to our Selfs, if we cannot develop a mutual depper relationship with our BPD partners/thou?

[Sunfl0wer]

Depends no?

I suppose we can label ourself a victim, and as we detach, detach with a sense of this person was "bad" and I am "good."  Creating some sense of fictitious goodness via victimhood we wear as a badge.

Or we can think, hey, all things happen for a reason, and have meaning.  Let me grow from this.  Let me detach in gratitude for the experience revealing something deeper about myself.

Or we can just accept that it is a feature of life, cycles of things beginning and ending.

Or we can tell ourselves all suffering creates strength.  So let me look for and identify ways that I am now built stronger as a result of this.

Or
Or
Or... .
Any array of other things we tell ourselves, make up.


I suppose
In my current state of opinions
That nothing is a truth
It is all illusion
A narrative we create

So our Self
-Whether it is detaching from a relationship.
(Why am I suffering? Or so glad to be free.)
-Or getting a new job.
(I feel valuable. Or this is less than what I wanted for myself.)
-Or having a new child.
(I am overwhelmed.  Or I feel needed.)
Is still what we create it
What we think it
The meaning we cling to is our own creation.

Not sure if that is anywhere near you were headed.

[Walkabout73]

Dear Sunflower,
thank you for your ecouraging reply... .
- I agree, that we create/construct our reality by ourselves  - but that´s also tricky with BPD partners and their distorted views of reality - because I remember a lot of converstations, where she pointed on that: "why do you think my point of view is weird?", "who do you think you are, that you have a priviliged approach to what happens?" Every subjective reality is equal, also that of BPD people... .there is no guideline outside, that helps to evaluate, what reality view is distorted and which is not... .
- yes, if we detach, we can become a sense of our Selves again independent from the BPD partner, but as long as we stay, I think we cannot avoid, that the intercations with them very deep influences our (dialogical constructed, not in the void of air room constructed) Selves... .       

[Sunfl0wer]

- yes, if we detach, we can become a sense of our Selves again independent from the BPD partner, but as long as we stay, I think we cannot avoid, that the intercations with them very deep influences our (dialogical constructed, not in the void of air room constructed) Selves... .     

Ahh, but are you assuming that the only way to be in a relationship with a pwBPD is to enmesh with their reality and construct a reality based mainly on their creation?

Some folks within a r/s with a pwBPD are sufficiently detached from their partners emotional narratives that they can maintain their own independent ones.

Yet, uh, yea, seems like the pwBPD would resist that stance of:  Having a SO with their own way of thinking/a separate conflicting reality is often not "permitted" to exist. (Enmeshment to a degree seems to be a requirement imposed by them fiercely)

So yea, my thoughts... .
It can be quite a damn feat to maintain ones own a completely self constructed reality, and be present with a pwBPD who does not share that reality.  
Often somethings got ta give.

I admit... .
That was a huge issue for me in my r/s
Maintaining a reality different than his... .
Not allowed
So often I bended my own for the sake of "saving" our relationship or maintaining "peace." Which in the end, cause lack of self peace in me.

Idk, what are your thoughts?

[Walkabout73]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that topic, Sunflower! They are helpful for me to come to terms with what I am meaning... .
It´s more, that to open up to a partner authentically is somehow necessary to find out what I´m thinking, feeling etc., so to approach an open, dialogical interaction/communication with a partner is necessary to become more myself... .I was used to this kind of communication with friends somehow and run into the r/s with my BPD like a greenhorn, opening up, telling her about my fears and longings (and as everyone knows here on the board, they are using this against you, when they get impulsive)... .but in that way an important part of self discovery and growing (by authentically talking about yourself and trusting that what you are saying will not be used as a weapon against you) is not possible with a BPD partner... .
I don´t mean that in a "philosophical" Way, more in an "existantial" sense... .               

[Sunfl0wer]

I think I hear the nuance here where you are not necessarily enmeshed, yet still finding a sense of self with your interactions with persons.

I get this image in my head of playing raquetball in an invisible room and learning the dimensions of the room by seeing the limits of the result of the ball bouncing around the room, therefore creating an image of what those dimensions likely are.

I must admit, I am not familiar with the term dialogical at all and did assume a meaning, then googled, and so have a limited grasp of using this term.  Yet, sense it is something I do too, !  So am interested in any thoughts ya got in expressing the meaning of this for yourself more directly if ya care to.

I feel like My mind came to a stop, have almost thoughts, but am a bit stuck with a bit of ignorance regarding the term.

Anyways... .
Interesting ponderings, thanks.

Maybe more will post too, idk.

[Sunfl0wer]

but in that way an important part of self discovery and growing (by authentically talking about yourself and trusting that what you are saying will not be used as a weapon against you)

What about assuming in all situations: Anything you say, could be used against you, then acting accordingly?  Incorporating this info into your sense of self... .And learning to be authentic anyway? Idk really.

[Walkabout73]

Yes, I got it... .the growing aspect for the Self is to not sharing and talking out, what is inside of you with a BPD partner and to "integrate" the different aspects, contradictory feelings and thoughts inside yourself without that. My BPD partner wanted, that I say yes to her from the bottom of my heart... .but of course the experiences with a BPD partner causes a lot of ambivalence inside, and you can´t  share this or open up this or talk this out with a BPD partner... .but if you don´t do this, they will nevertheless sense the ambivalences, because you can´t help to show them on a nonverbal level, because they became part of you, of your Self... .that´s one part of the crazy making game... .you have to be very clear, non-ambivalent... .but it´s nearly impossible, because the insults, threats, devaluations, that you experience with a BPD partner have to produce ambivalences in your attitude concerning them... .thanks a lot, Sunflower, for discussing that aspects a little bit with me...                  

[Sunfl0wer]

Feel like I am missing some pieces but responding to what I sense... .

My BPD partner wanted, that I say yes to her from the bottom of my heart... .but of course the experiences with a BPD partner causes a lot of ambivalence inside, and you can´t  share this or open up this or talk this out with a BPD partner... .

Well, sure she wanted your reality to match hers.
Literally, sure you could in fact share this and open up.  
(Just not without repercussion)

I actually think this idea is key to where I lost my footing in my r/s (and what is needed for me to find future success in the next relationship.)
 ... .believing the "correct" route was to morph my natural authentic self expression to reduce conflict or a sense of loss of connection.
Had I simply not succumb to what is here called FOG, likely the natural result would have been things would have dissolved between us sooner as he was left to sooth his own perceived emotional needs.

Yet instead, I allowed the gentle pressure, heat, to slowly mould things into a new form.  My Self began yielding.  To be fair, I do expect that any relationship, there will be some yielding in directions on both sides.  Yet, I have yet to know how to walk that "fair" balance.  (Maybe the gentle yielding is not the fault, but the yielding via FOG is?)

Isn't catering our SO by creating a false expression or monitored expression of our reality a bit of taking responsibility to sooth another before they even come undone?

What would happen if we allow our reality exist
Without apology
Without morphing it by acting in any FOG?

Then persons who cannot tolerate our Self we bring, would naturally fade off us.
Then we may attract someone more compatible to who we actually are?
Then maybe I wouldn't have been so resentful for "all I sacrificed" in the name of our relationship. (Trust me, two months post b/u, I could rattle a novel long list of my sacrifices and efforts, all true, admirable maybe by some, yet all my own doing and choices too and worth examining what drove that.)

[Walkabout73]

Yes, of course, some yielding and molding in both directions is normal part of becoming a couple... .but we all have a felt sense/intuition in ourselves, from where we know, if this is a constructive or destructive yielding or molding, but of course the intuition can be wrong, as we all know... .I did yielding/molting my Self too much simply because I felt so much love despite all the destructive impulsivity... .just like the love you feel for some complex, dark piece of art that simply gets you... .   

[valet]

I'm not sure what you mean, Walkabout... .

Can you re-phrase the question in relation to a memory that you have of your relationship?

[Walkabout73]

Hallo valet,
it´ not so much a question, but more thoughts concenring my experiences... .experiences, when I tried to talk about my feelings of anger and fear, e.g. because of threats, devaluations, distortions, attacks, and that it´ not possible to share them with a BPD partner, because if you do it, it can provoke/trigger the same behaviour again (threats, devaluations, distortions, attacks)... .so you have to hide them, but they have become part of the Self, so every attempt to hide them will be incomplete, because they will be at least a nonverbal level, where you "communicate" them... .sorry for being too theoretical and unclear... .