Sometimes doubt if it was BPD, not cunningly manipulatvie. low functioning?

[cbm419]

I read a lot on these forums about how cunning some people's BPDs are. I wonder sometimes about mine. Maybe he was just low functioning?

A lot of the folks on here reflect on how their ex or current partner is very articulate, well read, and the manipulation is subtle and/or extremely intelligent.

Mine is not sneaky about nearly anything. His attempts at manipulation are somewhat obvious. His gaslighting is so apparent... .I call him out immediately and even though he won't acquiesce he also doesn't push the issue and will move on to the next topic.

When he cheated he would quickly tell me. And tell me all the details. It got to a point where I began to feel his complete honesty and granularity about what happened was part of what we, on this board, depict as our BPDs appetite for drama. Their need for it. Because he would recount them down to a sickening level. Well beyond what I needed to know. But it was always effective at getting an intense reaction from me.

It seemed like part of his goal in enmeshing with me was to be somewhat dominated intellectually. Taken care of. Allowed to be in a mental stasis where he didn't have to grow.

It would be a contrast to stories I've read here where the apparent goal is to maintain a level of dysfunction inside of some very insidious, intellgdntly conceived head games that some partners of BPDs on here describe.

I don't know. I was just wondering about this after reading about so many apt, sneaky manipulators on here. My ex was not that. He was very childlike. A mess of a person in so many ways. It sometimes makes me doubt if he had BPD (though he is a picture perfect one under the DSM).

Anyone else here have my experience? Or a explanation of where he may lie in the spectrum. He was undiagnosed but I've had two therapists pretty much nail that as his issue. One without me ever suggesting it in the first place.

[cbm419]

The worry I have about my therapists validating my BPD suspicions is that I was on this site nearly 6 months prior to seeking therapy. So by the time I got to it, I may have been recounting my ex through a lens where I had already concluded he was BPD. Therefore, my language and preconceptions may have steered them, erroneously, into agreeing with my conclusion.

Worry I may have been projecting this idea and therefore wasn't delivering a clean, objective portrayal.

Again. He nails the DSM. Doesn't miss a single aspect.

I came to the BPD conclusion, and this board, after first suspecting bipolar. Then the rages began and he had a paranoid psychotic break in January 2015.

My bipolar suspicions were aroused by his pattern of promiscuous behavior and hyper sexuality, which is sometimes attributed to transient mania. Yet, I stumbled onto info on BPD when researching too, and when I saw it involved extreme emotional lability, self harm and/or impulsive behavior (sometimes with sex) as well as paranoid/psychotic episodes... .it felt like I was finally home.

It was a real eureka moment.

But his, for lack of a better term, stupidity, low level of aptitude with emotional manipulation that makes me wonder.

[teapay]

Individuals with classic active BPD tend to be lower functioning.  Many high functioning individuals have some severe BPD traits but not the complement and severity to get them dx as BPD.  With enough stress they may progress to BPD.  You can get a better picture of BPD by reading the board related to children with BPD.

[babyducks]

hi cbm419,

BPD is a spectrum disorder.   It is often time comorbid with other illness.    And people with BPD are still people, they express themselves uniquely.   As we all do.

I know you had lots of difficulty with cheating in your relationship.   I am sorry for that.   I can say my pwBPD never cheated.   I never had any worries in that regard.   That doesn't mean she isn't a pwBPD, it means that the illness doesn't express itself that way.

This is an interesting thought:

I was on this site nearly 6 months prior to seeking therapy. So by the time I got to it, I may have been recounting my ex through a lens where I had already concluded he was BPD. Therefore, my language and preconceptions may have steered them, erroneously, into agreeing with my conclusion.

Worry I may have been projecting this idea and therefore wasn't delivering a clean, objective portrayal.

I understand you want to be fair and honest.   That's a good trait.   It's healthy.   I know what was true for me is that when I ended up here I absorbed a lot of the experiences on this forum lock stock and barrel as if they were all true for me and mine.   does that make sense?

so many of our experiences are similar, and coming here usually is a major  moment.   in my need to relate, to make sense of what was going on I probably over identified with some of the posters here.   I think that was okay then as I was trying to work my way out of the confusion.   Questioning is good.    It helps us identify our own experience.   for me, this is not one size fits all.   

It seemed like part of his goal in enmeshing with me was to be somewhat dominated intellectually. Taken care of. Allowed to be in a mental stasis where he didn't have to grow.

For a person with no sense of self, or a very low sense of self, merging into an amoeba like state of oneness would feel very safe, very comfortable.    don't you think?

my partner was diagnosed as both Bipolar 1 and BPD.   in the end, I believe labels are only partially effective.   they serve as clues to further answers more than answers themselves.

hope this helps
'ducks

[vortex of confusion]

When he cheated he would quickly tell me. And tell me all the details.

I can really relate to this. Ex might try to lie. I could usually push a little and get the truth. When he would admit the truth, it was way too much and it would make my skin crawl to hear him talk about his escapades with other women even if he hadn't ever actually met up with them. Having somebody that you deeply love tell you how attracted they are to someone else and how I didn't float his boat any more and other stuff like that was so demoralizing. How could he seem to relish in telling me that stuff? I dated somebody for a little while and I went out of my way to NOT tell him any details or any information at all. Yet, he would tell me this stuff and, like you, I would react intensely. How can a person sit and listen to the person that they gave so much of themselves to talk about these other people as if I didn't exist. Or, if I did exist, I was just an object to be discarded when I no longer suited his purpose.

It seemed like part of his goal in enmeshing with me was to be somewhat dominated intellectually. Taken care of. Allowed to be in a mental stasis where he didn't have to grow.

THIS! This sounds like a perfect description of my ex. He doesn't want to do anything unless he has to do it. I have often described him as a petulant child. His behavior is more like a petulant child than a vindictive or manipulate adult. I think part of the problem with my relationship with ex is that I grew as we had more kids and took on more adult responsibilities in the process of growing older. He didn't. He stayed in a more childlike state and didn't seem to get that when you have kids and a commitment, there are certain things that need done. As long as I was willing to step up and mother him, he was great and wonderful and happy. I got tired and couldn't do it any more. That is when the petulance and immaturity reared its ugly head. That is when he started looking for other women. Before that, he would check out playing computer games instead of being a part of the family.

It would be a contrast to stories I've read here where the apparent goal is to maintain a level of dysfunction ... .

The goal is to maintain a level of dysfunction in order to get their needs met. It is like the child that pushes a parent's buttons to get attention.

My ex was not that. He was very childlike. A mess of a person in so many ways. It sometimes makes me doubt if he had BPD (though he is a picture perfect one under the DSM).

I am not one to latch on to labels and a diagnosis, especially when it comes to stuff like this. So many of the BPD traits can be found in anyone. The key is whether or not they are a pervasive pattern. Ultimately, I think that is why it took me so long to finally say, "Something is wrong here." It is easy to dismiss something when it is clear that a person is under stress or tired or something. When I came to this site, I thought that maybe I was BPD because I DID react to some of his stuff. For years, I took care of him and was pretty cool about whatever. And then, I wasn't. His lack of initiative and his lack of fulfilling basic responsibilities and duties became too much for me. I got tired. I could no longer excuse his behavior. I was no longer in a place where I could sit back and listen to his crap with a smile.

Anyone else here have my experience? Or a explanation of where he may lie in the spectrum. He was undiagnosed but I've had two therapists pretty much nail that as his issue. One without me ever suggesting it in the first place.

Some of what you describe sounds a little bit like dependent personality disorder. I think that might fit my ex better than BPD. So many of the traits are overlapping and similar. I stopped caring whether it is BPD, DPD, or something else. I know he is a sex addict and attends 12 step meetings for that. Really, he seems more like a teen age boy that is obsessed with sex but is too afraid to have a real relationship. So many of ex's behaviors make perfect sense for a teenage boy.

What I am trying to focus on is MY behavior and how his behavior impacted me. Even if ex were diagnosed with something, it wouldn't matter because it wouldn't change how much it hurt me and confused me to have the person I loved and had children with behave in the ways that he did. More importantly, why the heck did I keep putting myself in situations with him where I would likely have an intense reaction? He sure as heck wasn't going to pick up the clue phone and stop telling me about his escapades. He sure as heck wasn't going to wake up one day and start being responsible. It is quite likely that he is stuck in a perpetual state of childhood. Seeing that irritates the snot out of me and I react because I am left holding the bag and trying to figure out how to provide support for 4 kids on my own. I am tired. What did I get out of continuing to try to understand him or whether or not he has a disorder? Focusing on him and trying to understand him was a great distraction so I didn't have to face the pain head on. The pain is there and it is real and it sometimes feels like it is going to swallow me. Whether it is due to BPD, cluelessness, or something else is NOT going to change how much it hurt and confused me.

[cbm419]

Some of what you describe sounds a little bit like dependent personality disorder. I think that might fit my ex better than BPD. So many of the traits are overlapping and similar. I stopped caring whether it is BPD, DPD, or something else. I know he is a sex addict and attends 12 step meetings for that. Really, he seems more like a teen age boy that is obsessed with sex but is too afraid to have a real relationship. So many of ex's behaviors make perfect sense for a teenage boy.

Vortex,

Thanks for your reply. Yea- after an initial phase of trying to lie, my ex would layer the truth on extra thick.  I truly believe part of his act involved extracting the greatest possible reaction from me. It was as if the more I was hurt, the greater degree of love I was somehow exhibiting.  More specifically, the toxic version of love he carried throughout our relationship.  It never felt like he was discarding me though, it was always a reactionary pathos he espoused.  Always "I only want you but because you said/did xyz, I reacted with abc disgusting action."  It was like bullying or having the relationship held ransom.  If i didnt conform to his (nearly always changing and unpredictable) needs, demands or triggers, I was to be punished with a litany of nasty cheating, sometimes physical abuse during his rages.  

I appreciate your comments regarding both our BPDs seeming fixation on being childlike and obsession with having their immature needs met as such.  Also, it seemed he leaned on this aspect of himself to excuse or minimize his cheating and other forms of negative behavior.  It was always "i've been through so much and its my childhood that caused these issues." "I never fully developed a normal idea of sex and its because of my childhood."  Bear in mind, he wasnt abused as a small child sexually or physically (maybe emotionally, his mother is a piece of work). He always points to his adolescent experience with sex... .he is very good looking and from late 14 and throughout 15 to 18, he would trawl sex apps and casual encounter sites and lie about his age.  There, he would find sex partners of all ages, and usually preferred those in their 40s/50s and very unattractive.  Around 200 of them by 18.  He openly admits that he liked sex with these people because they would lavish him with attention and chase after him for weeks to have another encounter.  It seemed as though these people met him, thought they hit "jackpot" and gave him whatever he wanted and worshiped his good looks and fitness. He continued this behavior into adulthood and carried it through our relationship... .to him, it was "the grosser, the better."  Consequently, I caught 3 (curable, thank god) stds.  

It always angered me that he would say "I did those things when i was a child" though.  I know 15-18 is technically not adulthood, but I wouldn't call my later teenage years "childhood" either.  I was very capable of making my own decisions, good and bad.  He seems to conflate that time as being the  same rudimentary development phase psychology refers to through infancy up to ten/sometimes tween years.  That his teenage actions were as impactful to his development as what the sort of Freudian stuff psychology discusses from 0-5.  I'm no expert, but from my own view, my teenage years were not that.  I can't think of anyone else i've met who makes the same assumptions he does either.  When I was a teen, especially the later years, I was pretty darn self reflective, capable of knowing wrong vs right.  It makes me feel like either A) he was really, really developmentally disabled at an early age or B) He's just minimizing his present actions using this stage of his life.  And not for nothing, but if he isn't in guilt/shame mode, he speaks of this time as kind of a rebellious, bada$$ teenage period much like I reflect on mine.

Ironically enough though, if he was mad at me, it wasn't uncommon for him to label me immature, scold me for being such a poor example of an adult, etc. So annoying because he was, 24/7, a mess of an adult.

I read about DPD and see a lot of correlations.  However, his raging, self harm and paranoid dissocation/psychosis really nail BPD.  Not sure if thats present in your partner.

But I also agree, its not so important what exact diagnosis he has in regards to my own healing.  I have had some experience in AA, and there people often try to debate if alcoholism is genetic or environmental.  Well, any good AA member would stop you straight away and say "its not important how you got to this meeting- chicken or egg- the point is you are here to heal.  No need to rationalize the cause, its not a good use of our time, and identifying the cause won't cure your alcoholism."

I feel the same way about this site.  BPD or not, I've shared enough of the same experiences as our membership here to know this is the right place to heal from this relationship.  And I need the support, because my friends/family are sick of hearing about it. As I've said elsewhere on here, they compare my time with ex as "its like you joined a cult." They don't understand how confounding and complex these relationships can be.

thanks again for sharing and identifying.  this is why i love this place!

[cbm419]

.   

For a person with no sense of self, or a very low sense of self, merging into an amoeba like state of oneness would feel very safe, very comfortable.    don't you think?

my partner was diagnosed as both Bipolar 1 and BPD.   in the end, I believe labels are only partially effective.   they serve as clues to further answers more than answers themselves.

hope this helps
'ducks

This helps so much Ducks! especially the second part.  I have to keep that in mind, and remember what I'lm here to do- heal.  Not to decode my exes behaviors into a cogent, concrete and infallible diagnosis.  Just like that isnt a cure for him, its equally even less of a cure for me. 

What i need to do is continue relating to my fellow members and getting the unique kind of relief that provides.  Without it, I'm liable to forget all the pretty terrible things that happened and find myself romanticizing my ex... .which could land me back into his web.  Thats a very tough place to unstick myself from, and from other members stories... .these people rarely change without a lot of hard work.

He isnt doing much of anything to fix himself either.

[vortex of confusion]

It was always "i've been through so much and its my childhood that caused these issues." "I never fully developed a normal idea of sex and its because of my childhood."

I can really relate to this. He blames his distorted views of sex on the fact that he was raised in a strict Catholic home. He has a love/hate relationship with his religion. There are times when he blames all of his foibles on his childhood and there are other times when he blames it on his childhood. One time, I recall listening to him talk about some event from his childhood where he watched his mom spank his brother. He recalls that as being super traumatic. I am sure that it was very traumatic to him. There were so many times that I wanted to scream at him because he had no clue about some of the stuff that I witnessed and experienced as a child. After he left, the kids started asking me about my childhood and wanted to hear stories about me. It was then that I realized that in our 20 years together most of the discussions were about him and his childhood. There were times when it felt like his life stopped when we got married because he rarely shared stories with the kids or anyone else about any of the fun stuff that we had done together.

Bear in mind, he wasnt abused as a small child sexually or physically (maybe emotionally, his mother is a piece of work).

Ex is the same way. He may have grown up in an invalidating environment but I don't think it could be considered abusive. He grew up in a small town and his family was a pillar of the community. Ex had a great past. Multi-sport athlete in high school, boy scout, blah, blah, blah. . .a picture of perfection. I always assumed that all of the problems in our relationship were due to the fact that my childhood was less than stellar. Dysfunction and mental illness didn't run in my family. It walked through shaking hands with everyone it met. I was sexually abused as a child. I was never hit and I didn't get treated that bad compared to the crap that my siblings had to endure. I had a difficult time seeing how he could blame all of his issues on his childhood and his church and anything else.

However, his raging, self harm and paranoid dissocation/psychosis really nail BPD.  Not sure if thats present in your partner.

Ex didn't rage per se. He had a non-stop grumpiness and would overreact to small things. He claims to have forgotten a lot of stuff. I am not sure if that was him dissociating or what. He would say and do stuff and then forget or claim to have forgotten. One time, he called me a b***h  and then spent 20 minutes denying it. I pushed the issue because I was beginning to think I had imagined it. He finally said that he thought it but did't think he said it. I know he is a bit paranoid. The kids and I couldn't even have a private discussion without him overhearing and interjecting. At times, it felt like "big brother is watching". He went through a brief period where he threatened suicide a few times. He stopped that after I told him that I would be calling 911 if he ever did it again. He was doing it as a ploy for attention. When I was babying him, he kept doing it. When I told him no more and quit giving him attention and said I would be dialing 911, he quit.

And I need the support, because my friends/family are sick of hearing about it. . . .They don't understand how confounding and complex these relationships can be.

I can relate to this too. For years,  I would try to bring stuff up and would get told that I needed to be thankful for ex. Other people would point out all of the good stuff that he did. When he lost his job due to looking at porn at work early in our marriage, I was told "Oh, my husband does/did that. I didn't care because that meant he left me alone." For years, I would work on finding the positives in everything he did. For years, I tried my best to NOT say anything at all. Now, I am talking about it. People are starting to see how much he changed from when he and I got together. Nobody knew about his porn stuff. There is a lot of stuff that happened that I can't/won't share because it is so personal in nature. Because I can't/won't share the entire story, it has people wondering what the heck my problem is.

I can come here and tell about all of the gory details without judgment and get some understanding as to why I struggled so much. I was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Keeping quiet about so many of the intimate details that were the most traumatizing to me really took its toll and made it very difficult for me to not act like I had BPD too. (Maybe I do. That part isn't as important as figuring out that very few people could have stayed with my ex and NOT been thrown into a vortex of confusion. Most people would have bailed in the early days. Not me, I stayed thinking that I just had to find a way to fix myself, be nicer, and keep my mouth shut.)

[babyducks]

  I have to keep that in mind, and remember what I'lm here to do- heal. 

I like this cbm,   it's helpful to me.   I view healing, recovering sort of like it is a job.  And like any project I need a plan for it.   

I found a website by a guy named Pete Walker.   He has a list of the 23 suggested intentions for recovery.  I printed it out and put it up on my wall.   

as we go into 2017 I want to increase my capacity to play and have fun, which is one of his points.   I notice that I don't laugh, smile or joke the way I used to.  I've grown very serious.  maybe because I view the world as a darker place right now.

one of the other parts of my plan is to increase my freedom from toxic shame.   you are right when you say these are confounding and complex relationships.    for me that really displays in the levels of toxic shame that flew about in my relationship.    man there were just boat loads of shame.    what it feels like is that some of it clung to me like a miasma.   I'm not quite sure how I am going to get rid of it but I am working on it.

thanks for your post.   it helped me.

[Pretty Woman]

Does it really matter if he was BPD or not? When it comes down to it, if you were treated badly, if he manipulated you, obvious or not... .that's a pretty crappy person and you deserve better.

Right?

There is no cookie cutter label to define a person with an emotional disorder. It is common for there to be a lot of co morbidities such as bi-polar, manic depressive, ADHD... .there's no one size fits all approach.

Going back to my original statement... .do you really need him to be BPD to feel justified? Can't you just chalk it up to him being toxic for you?

Just a thought. I know I was obsessed in diagnosing my ex as BPD. I finally stopped. My ex:

Changed her number on me four times after minute arguments
Cheated on me with exes AND people I thought were friends during our relationship.
Pushed me into a wall and almost broke my arm.
Lied to me about close friends hitting on her when they weren't to manufacture "competition"
Told horrible lies about me to her siblings who work with me to play "victim" almost getting me fired.


I don't need a BPD label to verify this person is crazy and not healthy for my life.

Just something to think about!
 

[lovenature]

The disorder runs it's course and the results are what they are. Most important isn't what we call it but what we want; do you want what your relationship was or do you want something else?