Is divorcing my BPD wife worse for my children?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is CJ and I am hurting having lived with a spouse with BPD
for over a decade.  We have 3 children together and am having a
hard time deciding whether to file for divorce or not.

I am concerned about whether I could get sole custody given the law favours the
women and is hard to prove her condition or whether it is better to stay and do my best to manage for the children than to be in a joint custody or co-parenting arrangement with BPD which I am anticipating will be even more difficult than living with them.

I am glad to have joined this forum.  It feels good already to be sharing.
Thankfully yours.

[CJhurting]

This is CJ and I am hurting having lived with a spouse with BPD
for over a decade.  We have 3 children together and am having a
hard time deciding whether to file for divorce or not.

I am concerned about whether I could get sole custody given the law favours the
women and is hard to prove her condition or whether it is better to stay and do my best to manage for the children than to be in a joint custody or co-parenting arrangement with BPD which I am anticipating will be even more difficult than living with them.

I am glad to have joined this forum.  It feels good already to be sharing.
Thankfully yours.

[sad but wiser]

Hello CJ
That is a very difficult situation.  It is wonderful that you are considering your children's needs first.  So often the drama leaves them as little additions to the situation.  Good Dad!
   Is it better?   Hmmm, that is hard to say.  I was married for 19 years to a man with BPD, the father of my 2 children.  Life in our house was very difficult on them, and I had no idea exactly what was wrong.  He created a lot of chaos and you never knew from one day to the next whether he would be a reasonable person or... .well, you know.  I can't find the words to describe it, but everyone here understands.
   We divorced during my youngest child's senior year in HS.  There was a huge dramatic scene in which he screamed all kinds of vile things at our children (I don't know if he said anything about me)  and threatened violence.  That was when a quiet voice asked me if there was anything good coming out of him.  (The answer was no.)
  My,children were old enough to decide how often (if at all) they wanted to see him.  (It took six weeks before either would talk to him again)  and he began a campaign of painting me black while I refrained from speaking.  Eventually, I found this website and  did tell them what I knew.  Strangely, he was the one who filed for divorce.  It was a power play.  I was supposed to get scared and comply.  I surprised him by rising strong and seeing it through... .all excruciating 2 years of it as he stalled, failed to file papers or follow court orders and recieved spousal support.
   Other choice... .my friend filed for divorce from his BPD ex.  His kids were younger.  She has more control of them, as they have joint custody, however, they have three things my kids didn't have.  One, their dad is fully himself, not dealing with her chaos on her terms.  Two, he and his home are a refuge where they get away from her.  Three, they can make a choice to leave her and live with him.  This constrains her somewhat, so they have some power of their own.
  Either choice can be difficult, but so is where you are.  My children (now young adults) are still dealing with the aftermath of life with their father.  His children seem to long for a mother.  It all depends on how your particular circumstance is.

[takingandsending]

Hello CJ and sad,

Thanks for this post. I am in process of divorce with my uSTBxBPDw. I have S11 and S5 with wife. We have been together for 20 years. In the end, those first two points that sad but wiser posted are the very reasons that I have, 2 years after having a T provide diagnosis, chosen to divorce my wife. My T simply said one day that, try as I might, I cannot give my children the emotion tools that they need to be healthy as adults while I remain in an emotionally abusive relationship with my spouse. The T confirmed what I already knew but had been fighting against for 2 years.

I don't look forward to the next 2 years of finalizing the divorce, in terms of the hardships, grief, loss and uncertainties, but I so look forward to spending time with my sons in which I can freely build an environment that is safe and loving for them. That makes me happy.

CJ - try to do some good things for you and allow yourself the time you need to make this decision and to be with the grief that you may be feeling. If you should happen to have time when you are parenting your 3 children on your own, and wife is away, how does that feel in comparison to parenting them when she is present? The night and day difference between those experiences is what convinced me that the best decision for me was to end the marriage. Hang in there.

[Sluggo]

CJ,

I am in the middle of a divorce with my diagnosed wife.  I was married 18 years and have 7 children ranging from 17-3.  Divorce was filed about 10 months ago.  I moved out about 11 months ago. 

I don't have an answer to your question but here are my thoughts

1.  My oldest is a son who I parented in a way that I allowed my wife to dictate.  It consisted of very little time with him as I was worried about keeping my wife happy who seemed to become upset the more time I spent with him. 
2.  Since I have been out of the house, I have had limited time with the kids due to a very bad prelim order that I signed and agreed to. However, even the limited time with my 7 year old son has been everything that I wanted my other son to have.  That is, I am being the father that I want to be.  I don't get nervous about being outside throwing the football with him because I am afraid my wife will become upset.  That has been wonderful. 
3.  I requested a custody evaluation at the prelim order (the best thing I did).  Even though it took about 8 months for the evaluator to complete.  I just got it this week.  It is giving me 50 50 time with the mechanism that I get full custody if she continues with alienating the kids from me.  The report was 80 pages long.  It cost about 20K.  The report went so far to say that the alienating behavior is child abuse. 
4.  I feel much better.  People come up to me and tell me I look better (they don't know anything about my situation).  6 years ago I was clinically diagnosed with chronic depression.  I had to take another day of testing for the evaluation this year, and it came back that everything is fine.
5.  The cost of missing my kids this year has been very high.  I think with the new order, it may just have been worth it. 
   

[ForeverDad]

There are many members here who regretted waiting or delaying 10, 15, even 20 years and more before pulling the plug.  They realized, looking back, that appeasing, playing referee and being Whipping Boy wasn't a good answer.

On the other hand, it is proper to take additional time, now that you are pondering future action and solutions, to assess what you want, what you need and then figure out strategies and tactics to attain at least some of your goals.  So no need to rush right now.  You will learn here the importance of documenting, what and how.  You will learn how to identify your goals and determine which are more practical than others.  You will learn strategies, tactics and boundaries.  Sometime during that learning process you'll figure out your own answer as to what to do.  Keep asking, keep reading, keep learning... .even if she doesn't improve, your more informed life can and will get better.

As for your question about whether to stay in or step out, here's a quote I periodically post.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, overall craziness, etc.  Some 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[Ddad3]

WOW. Thank you for this thread. I am new to this forum and this is exactly what I needed to hear.  I'm pretty sure i grew up with a mom uBPD. Now I am have uBPD  wife of nine years (go figure). We have three young kids. I recently decided with my T I need/want a divorce. However; it's hard not to second guess regarding what's best for the kids. I'm very afraid of the divorce process.  My wife is very unpredictable.

I can't say how much this forum has helped me!

[sad but wiser]

Yes, the divorce process stinks!  Be prepared for her lies, stalling and basic drama.  They all seem to love the courtroom and feel free to say whatever they want and ignore court orders.  The courts simply do not have mechanisms to efficiently deal with their kind of craziness.  I sat in a hearing once where the judge himself started questioning my ex in disbelief!  It was nearly funny and entirely validating to see the looks on the faces of everyone present as my not-yet ex rambled on the stand.  That said, he managed to stall for an extra year by failing to file papers and asking for extensions.  It was worth it.

[Panda39]

Everyones decision is their own.

I stand on the side of leaving both from my own standpoint (married to an alcoholic 20 years) and my SO's experience (UBPDxw).

I stayed married to an alcoholic for financial reasons (I didn't think I could support my son on my own and I couldn't depend on support coming from my ex) and tried to protect my son from the fallout as best I could.  My influence in the home made some difference but I had my own problems too... .codependency and later in the marriage depression.  So my example wasn't always healthy either.  My son developed social anxiety as a teen.  He has since had therapy and has learned skills to cope with it and is doing very well today.

The ripple effect of me finally leaving my marriage:

I was happier and healthier.

My ex lost his wife, his son, his house (sold following the divorce), had his 3rd DUI, lost his license, lost his retirement (used to pay attorney fees), went to work smelling like alcohol, failed to take the actions his job required and lost his job. He hit his "Rock Bottom".  He finally admitted he was an alcoholic, went to meetings, and has been sober for the last 5 years.

My son gained happier and healthier parents.  He saw that people can learn and can change.  He lives with me and he and his dad see each other whenever they choose.

My SO was married 17 years to someone that created nothing but chaos for the entire family.  She made suicide threats, took money for family expenses and spent it on herself, she was arrested and jailed for fraud (got off on a technicality), she raged, she verbally and emotionally abused their children etc.  My SO had a tough divorce it lasted 2 years it included false accusations of child abuse, his kids spying on him, going through his things, and reporting back to mom, and parental alienation.  He had to fight for 50/50 custody like so many other people here.  He fought and won a little bit more than 50/50. 

The ripple effect of my SO leaving his marriage... .

My SO is happier and healthier.

Just like my husband his UBPDxw began the spiral to the natural conclusion/consequences of her behaviors. She has never used her alimony as it was intended to give her the opportunity to get a job or training or go back to school.  She doesn't work... .at least doing anything legitimate... .she makes "financial deals".  She has been evicted 3 times, she couch surfed 3 times, she was living in hotels multiple times until she wrote a bad check to one of them and was taken to court for fraud and the bad check.  She currently lives with her friend/divorce attorney/flying monkey who has brain cancer in codependency.  Her older daughter is very low almost no contact with her, and her younger daughter has phone/text contact but sees her rarely.

My SO's daughters watched their mother fall a part by her own actions.  They listened as she broke promise after promise to them.  They watched as she failed to meet their basic needs.  They watched as their things were put out on the lawn following each eviction.  They suffered abuse in many ways big and small... .the biggest sending older daughter to a private liberal arts college promising to pay for tuition from an "family trust" that didn't exist, this daughter now owes the school $15,000.  The youngest daughter was sent to camp in Wisconsin only she didn't go to camp she was sent to a friend of mom's to stay until mom could arrange to pay for camp.  Dad was not told where she was until his daughter (who was told by mom not to tell him) finally called and let him know where she was. Camp refused to take the daughter as they had not been paid for the year before.  Daughter had no return trip plane ticket and was finally rescued by her dad, grandfather, and uncle.

These daughters also had a stable place to live with dad, dad was meeting all of their basic needs, dad was there to pick up the pieces after mom's epic failures, dad was showing them a better way to live, he created an alternate universe.  Despite the court order both daughters "voted with their feet" and live with dad full-time.  They chose stability over chaos, honesty over lies, and the caring parent over the selfish parent.

So I say again I am in the camp that believes if you are in an unhappy, dysfunctional marriage leave it's better for you and I beleive it is better for the kids.

Panda39

[oshinko maki]

There are many members here who regretted waiting or delaying 10, 15, even 20 years and more before pulling the plug.  They realized, looking back, that appeasing, playing referee and being Whipping Boy wasn't a good answer.

I have waited 13 years now and do not regret it, yet anyway! The risks I have faced may have been different I suspect and made it more appealing to wait. Many years have indeed been hell for me, and I do plan to leave in the coming years.
You can learn to model "healthy behavior under even horrible circumstances", even though you cannot model a healthy marital relationship.
I often feel thankful, not regret, that I toughed it out because I have gotten to raise my son during that time and because he is alive, healthy, happy and one of the best people I have ever known! In my case, outside the US until recently, I would have lost my son and even contact with him and his BPD mother would have likely neglected him as much as she was as a child, creating another person with BPD.
Sorry. My situation may not be at all like yours, especially as there is joint custody in the US and even the father can raise the child if the mother does not want to.

[ForeverDad]

All our situations can be a little — or a lot — different.  So it is up to each of us to decide what our options are based on our specific circumstances.  Often we don't have a clear, happy choice.  Too often it's choosing from among the less distressing options.

One thought I keep coming back to is this... .if the spouse isn't seeking to improve himself/herself in meaningful therapy, then the situation won't improve on it's own.  Struggling to accommodate, appease or being the Whipping Boy generally aren't optimal answers either.

Ponder this.  Despite our efforts for years, has the situation improved significantly?  There is a pattern where the acting-out disordered persons don't listen to those closest to them.  With BPD, a mood dysregulation disorder, we're too close emotionally, if not now then in the past, for them to listen to us.  In other words, the emotional baggage if the relationship is just too much for them to respond well.  That's why improvement, if any, generally comes from the guidance of emotionally neutral professionals or others wearing counselor/guidance shoes.  So it comes down to this... .will they commit to therapy, or not?

In my case, my then-spouse wasn't listening to me, quite the opposite.  Nor was she listening to others.  When I stood up for myself and principle by trying to reset proper boundaries she started making horrendous allegations and that confirmed for me that going to court was my only way to have protection.  Courts, lawyers and associated agencies won't try very hard, if at all, to change a person, they deal with them as they are.  The only realistic option for me was to proceed with divorce.  With my religious background I knew I wouldn't feel the marriage was religiously over and free to remarry unless their was infidelity.  So I wasn't just tossing my Ex away.  Eventually the marriage was over, both legally and religiously.  We still have contact due to the children, but the marriage is over.

All too often our spouses were actively oppositional, wouldn't change course and thus ending the unhealthy relationship, the marriage, was the only option left if the dysfunctional dynamic was to be changed.

[Aiming4Kindness]

Thanks for this post, ForeverDad.

I started feeling a bit guilty while reading your last post.  My BPD fiancee' and mother of our 8-month-old goes to couples counseling with me each week, and there have been some improvements over time, but life is becoming more and more hellish. 

Just because she's in therapy doesn't mean I have to stay in an abusive relationship in which my own emotional resources, social connections, and financial resources are constantly drained.

I'm at a point where I regularly say to myself, "At least I stayed in therapy with her this long so that she'll be somewhat easier to guide our child's life with.  And at least I soon won't be going to sleep at night wondering if I'm going to be attacked physically.  At least I won't have to hide from her in my own house any longer."  A commitment to therapy only goes so far.

[thefarside]

On being scared of the divorce process ---

Due to my own fears, it took me 2 years to finally get to filing.  Had I not been so scared, I could have been true to my heart and filed when we separated 8 months ago, but I was too scared, so fear is normal!  We shouldn't beat ourselves up over it, our BPDs have beat us up enough.

I had a great conversation with a therapist recently who is a consultation therapist, so a little different role than a regular therapist.  Highly strategy focused and it is very helpful.  The strategies recently highlighted were that: FEAR IS NOT BAD.  So easy to think it is, especially when living in fear of BPD explosions and rages all the time, hard to shake off the idea that fear is bad (at least for me).  Another strategy was to approach the divorce days differently.  I am naturally a very optimistic person and see the silver lining in most everything.  Therapist said a shift is necessary for a time.  Instead of seeing things as going well and being so hurt when I get slapped with one more thing from the legal antics of the BPD, to start approaching each day as ... .this is going to be crappy for a while.  Just expect crap each day, and know that it will come until the whole thing is over.  I was able to pick up on what T was laying out.  Amazingly, I caught on quickly so now I just expect crap each day.  I haven't given up any hopes on life or living, just that there will be a bunch of daily crap during this process.  Now here is the good part -- when I expect crap, then something good happens, it's that much better!  So rather than being so hurt by all of it because I'm surprised or blindsided by it, I can be pleasantly surprised when something good happens.  It's a great endurance strategy.

I totally agree with ForeverDad's quote --- significantly better to come from a broken home than live in one.  I had a highly chaotic family home (no surprise at all that I married who I did) and when my parents divorced, my family more than fell apart, but at least the chaos and constant trauma stopped.

[livednlearned]

Here's a link to

What's Best for the Kids?

PERSPECTIVES: Is it better for the kids if I stay or leave?

There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together. Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook? If you leave, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex? Would things be better for your kids living in a two-parent home situation? If you are the father, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

Not all people with BPD are high-conflict people, or what Bill Eddy calls HCPs. How well things go during and after divorce can depend on whether they are HCPs (e.g. have a PD, recruit negative advocates, are persuasive blamers, and have a target of blame).

A lot, too, depends on whether the kids have inherited BPD sensitivities. A child prone to BPD is probably going to be vulnerable to developing the pathology in a home with an untreated, undiagnosed BPD parent.

If you do leave, and if you do end up with joint custody, your kids will struggle, though how much (less or more) depends on the balance you provide during the time they are with you, and how proactive you are in developing skills to counter parental alienation. In other words, if you become committed to raising emotionally resilient kids, you may be able to mitigate the damage they experience having a BPD parent.

My two cents is that if you cannot raise them to be emotionally resilient in the home, then they may well be better off with two separate homes.

If there is domestic violence, repeated suicidal ideation, substance abuse, infidelity, the kids are likely to think those behaviors are ok. If you assert strong boundaries and learn about emotional resilience in the face of difficult relationships, your kids are more likely to learn that from you and apply those perspectives to their own lives and adult relationships.

[Aiming4Kindness]

You will learn here the importance of documenting, what and how.  You will learn how to identify your goals and determine which are more practical than others.

Hi ForeverDad, where can I find guidance on the documentation process?  I have 21 pages of journal entries from the past year, but am not sure if I did them "correctly".  Thanks tons.

[sfbayjed]

I haven't been on here awhile.  I was just in court again this morning. It really never ends until the kids are 18. I tell ya.

I think the answer on what is better for the kids really depends on you. If you are able to provide the kids with an emotionally healthy environment 1/2 the time, it is way better to leave. The kids will have your home to compare and contrast. They will know it's different and that the crazy isn't all there is. Things might even be calmer at their moms if they are lucky.

If you leave and you let this woman get to you and keep you an emotional wreck, well it is still probably better, just not much better. Divorce is hard on kids even with "normal" folks. Its got to be hard going back and forth all the time.

In my case their mom still causes much trouble, it doesn't bother me anymore much but it is hard on the kids so it affects me. The kids can relax, feel loved unconditionally and experience things not being all dramatic and crazy.  They still have issues because of their mom because she is still crazy as a bat and they stay with her 1/2 the time.

You have a hard row to hoe either way but if you don't leave and make a life boat you might all go down with the ship if she gets worse.  They do almost always get worse when you stay and you have kids.