Is the borderline self aware?

[FallenOne]

In other words, are their behavior patterns and relationship cycles just part of their nature and this all just comes natural to them, or are they consciously aware of their actions, the damage they're doing, and the hurt they're causing (doing it on purpose?)? And, if they are aware, do they actually care and feel bad about it and just have no control over themselves, or do they know what they're doing and just do it purposefully and enjoy the destruction they cause?


I ask this, because my ex of four years, just seemed to think that what she was doing was right and natural... When the idea of her being emotionally abusive came up and when she spoke to her doctors, she seemed completely oblivious of what her BPD traits were, and actually got very upset and cried when the thought of her being abusive was made a reality to her. "Am I really abusive?" she would say "I don't want to be like that... " In other words, she seemed to understand what she was doing, but didn't seem to know why she was doing it.

Any thoughts on this? It has confused me for a while now.

[Pretty Woman]

Hmm. I think this is a great question and there is a lot of controversy on this subject.

I am a believer that YES they are aware... .to some extent. They don't pull the same crapola on everyone or many of them would be locked up in prison. They know "right from wrong" and overall abide by societies rules and law. They know when to behave a certain way or they would all be jobless and homeless.

Of course this also depends on if they are high or low functioning as well.

Lots of factors.

My ex would speak about those she hurt in the past with what I felt was genuine remorse. Sometimes she would cry and miss them like she just hurt them five minutes earlier (which is a symptom of this disorder---grieving in reverse). It was during these times she would try to reach out to them, sometimes successfully but often unsuccessfully. She would say they likely hate her for what she did, however at other times (like when trying to secure a new love interest) some of her stories were less favorable of these individuals. It really depended on the day and perhaps if something triggered her to think about them.

I've perused a few websites where persons with BPD told their stories and many of them seemed to realize they were to blame for their horrible actions. What was striking is that very few were trying to get help for them so they would just repeat the pattern. A few fully blamed the nons but most of the persons posting seemed genuinely aware they had a issue (many were actually diagnosed).

So to answer your question I think YES, it just depends on where they are in their cycles. Overall they know right from wrong.

[FallenOne]

Hmm. I think this is a great question and there is a lot of controversy on this subject.

I am a believer that YES they are aware... .to some extent. They don't pull the same crapola on everyone or many of them would be locked up in prison. They know "right from wrong" and overall abide by societies rules and law. They know when to behave a certain way or they would all be jobless and homeless.

Of course this also depends on if they are high or low functioning as well.

Lots of factors.

My ex would speak about those she hurt in the past with what I felt was genuine remorse. Sometimes she would cry and miss them like she just hurt them five minutes earlier (which is a symptom of this disorder---grieving in reverse). It was during these times she would try to reach out to them, sometimes successfully but often unsuccessfully. She would say they likely hate her for what she did, however at other times (like when trying to secure a new love interest) some of her stories were less favorable of these individuals. It really depended on the day and perhaps if something triggered her to think about them.

I've perused a few websites where persons with BPD told their stories and many of them seemed to realize they were to blame for their horrible actions. What was striking is that very few were trying to get help for them so they would just repeat the pattern. A few fully blamed the nons but most of the persons posting seemed genuinely aware they had a issue (many were actually diagnosed).

So to answer your question I think YES, it just depends on where they are in their cycles. Overall they know right from wrong.

I think mine was somewhere between high and low functioning... She has been in therapy for maybe 6 or 7 years, is highly medicated, but still shows a lot of symptoms of BPD... However, she isn't a motivated person. She is on Social Security Income and lives at her dads house at the age of 24. She was in college, but keeps withdrawing for what she says are "medical reasons"... .She can't finish anything she starts... She has big goals but no ambition... Always moves on to something else and changes her mind.

This is an interesting question, because at times, mine would seriously show guilt and remorse for things she had done... She was truly sorry for things sometimes... And cried a lot when she felt this way... Was this all just manipulation though? I have no idea...

[Hisaccount]

I don't think you can say for sure. I agree some of them do.

Mine certainly does not. She believes with all of her heart that I did this to her. I made her this way. We were together 13 years. She was with her previous for 7 with just one night stands in between. So she doesn't have enough of a history pattern to believe it is her.

Her ex before me was evil. I saw the things he did. I have no doubt she has some responsibility in the downfall of the relationship, but she is correct when she said he is evil.

Then it comes to me. I am not evil. The kids saw all of our relationship and they all know I was not the problem. Yet she blames me. She has even said I am a good father, and provider, I am just not a good husband.
So she sees the good in the good in me but find reasons to blame me for her failures.

[vanx]

It's hard to really understand, isn't it? My r/l was very short, so I know I don't feel I got to know her well enough, but I believe with the woman I was with, she was very aware and was struggling with it, but maybe is just not at a point where she has honed the skills to get out of that old place. I'm not diagnosed BPD myself, but learning about it has spoken to me as a depressed and insecure person. If you don't really know yourself or you haven't made enough progress healing past wounds, while you can be very kind and compassionate, a lot of your energy can be self-defeating and misdirected, and it's hard to integrate constructive criticism if you are defending against your own self-punishment.
I can only compare in my experience, but I think you summed it up when you wrote "she seemed to understand what she was doing, but didn't seem to know why she was doing it". Maybe it is in part to avoid the additional shame of being "bad" to distance yourself from your actions. She is also operating on complex defense mechanisms that you may find relatable but also nonsensical compared to how you see the world, so in essence, I don't know if you could ever fully understand.
Everyone is different, and I could be wrong/naive, but I really don't think it is on purpose. I think that is what makes it hard to let go, because here is someone who wants to be loved. I think they are just trying anything they can to abate intense pain, and usually what works easiest is an ingrained method.
I want to understand her, understand myself, and integrate this new information into an understanding of the human experience, but I often think the most helpful answer for me is probably to accept that I really will never know. She doesn't know either.
Thanks for asking this, because I think the same things.

[caughtnreleased]

I think self-awareness comes in different shapes.  They may be aware of certain things, but  not others. For example - the things behaviours that my ex most despised in himself, or feared of himself, he projected on me. He would accuse me of being jealous - something he was to the extreme. He would accuse me of his own behaviours (drug use, promiscuity, etc.) I think he genuinely was concerned and afraid of these behaviours, but wasn't sufficiently self aware to realize that he was afraid of himself, not me, or others.  I think the psych world calls this projection. So unfortunately, they see the world as THEY are - imagine that you are unable to come to terms with your own destructive behaviour so you see it - mistakenly - in everyone else.  There is a lot of distorted thinking that goes on there because they haven't sorted out their emotions - therefore they may be able to "fake" self awareness, or claim it, or whatnot, but in the end, if they aren't sorting out their baggage it's getting in the away and I don't think they're capable of self awareness.

[Rayban]

Interesting question.

My BPDex was self aware. She's been living on her own since age 18, and as had God knows how many short term relationships not longer then 2 years.  She said often, "I'm not a bad person ". She also said she had whole families against her. She would seem remorseful for the moment, and then the defense mechanisms kick in.

I asked her once how is it possible that she's had the worst luck ever in that relationship break ups were never her fault? She began crying, and said she was dating the wrong people.

She would then seek younger people, then move on to older, then she would date women.  In her case she believed she was picking from the wrong sample bucket.

Once she would get the intoxicating hit of a new relationship, everything was forgotten.

[Portent]

My first day on this forum I found this post by fromheeltoheal

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=302148.msg12823370#msg12823370

It helped me understand my wife more than any other thing I have ever read.

BPD is a guilt based disorder. When I managed to get through my wife's defenses and get to the damaged child underneath all the anger I didn't hit a wall of anger and rage all the venom you get from them is a layer above the root. The root is guilt. When I would get past her defenses the wall I hit was a wall of guilt. Everything she had done to me, everything she had done to her kids, everything she had done to her new BF, everything she had done to his family. It overwhelmed her and she ran away every time. Id tell her to stay and she would say she wanted to stay but had some excuse of why she had to leave. She would immerse herself in her work and come back soulless again.

I know that my wife was abused by her step father. He story is that he made sexual advances on her when she was a teenager and that she told her mother and she sided with him over her. Her mom is BPD too and her clone. My wife lives in the half truth. Its her preferred method of lying. She did confront her mother about her stepfather when she became a teenager. That is the truth. The lie is that he had just made a pass at her as a teenager. No. She only grew the courage to confront her mother when she became a teenager. The sexual abuse had been going on for a long long time.

There is a reason so many pwBPD were abused. Deep down inside a child will blame themselves for the abuse. A child would rather believe that its their fault than accept the fact that those who were supposed to care for them and protect them abused and abandoned them. At least in my wife's case this is the root of her guilt and the disorder. Everything stems from trying to avoid this guilt.

[Lucky Jim]

There is a reason so many pwBPD were abused. Deep down inside a child will blame themselves for the abuse. A child would rather believe that its their fault than accept the fact that those who were supposed to care for them and protect them abused and abandoned them. At least in my wife's case this is the root of her guilt and the disorder. Everything stems from trying to avoid this guilt.

Makes sense to me, Portent.  My BPDxW was sexually assaulted in her early teens and has been running from the trauma ever since.

Matt S. -- Good question!  I note that my Ex was quite adept at hiding her disorder from the outside world and was self-aware enough to cover her tracks with others when she needed to.  The worst rages were generally behind closed doors and reserved for those closest to her!

LuckyJim

[talks to angels]

One of the first issues with this is that most BPD are co-morbid, having more than one personality disorder ex BPD and Bi-polar. From what I've researched yes most are very aware that they are "different". As far as nurture vs nature? Well the only way they would be able to figure that out is if they had brain scans of babies and re did them as adults. It appears that their brains are not fully formed in some areas (area of brain that gives us empathy and compassion)  They are not in touch with their feelings like non's are. As far as them knowing? It seems like its more of a trained reaction, done without thought. The disorder it self can cause lapses in memory (a black out of sorts) and also confabulation (the rewriting of history plays here) Which they actually believe. Think they are so wired to avoid shame that they have a defensive mechanism that prevents them from remembering the facts. Looking back from stuff my ex told me in the relationship I think he was very aware of what he did. As far as taking responsibility? No way that would mean in his head he was a bad person and he would not be able to live with that. I believe it was his self preservation that would keep him from being accountable.

[Weary1402]

From what I have experienced, at least for my pwBPD, they do know that they are out of control but can't seem to make it stop. It's rage. Something triggers every fear or at least a deep fear and they act like a cornered rabid animal. They feel very sorry but choose to forget what they said. So we are left reeling and bleeding and they just can't understand why we aren't over it yet. I think they want to stop abusing but don't really want to get well. They like being taken care of. And there is always a person with enough compassion and lack of experience to manipulate into doing so. It's a sick terrible cycle. They find a way to justify their behavior.
I suppose their ultra intensified emotions are the same when it comes to guilt and they have to find a way to stop it.
@caughtandreleased I have also been baffled by the projection. It makes me want to rip my hair out.
@pretty woman what do you mean grieve in reverse?

[talks to angels]

Yes weary1402 its like the saying:

You stabbed me than pretended you were the one bleeding

[Portent]

Boy if I had a dollar for everytime Ive heard the 'Im not a bad person' line over the past 2 months.

We all have good and evil within us Yin and Yang, Soul vs. Ego. What makes us a good person or a bad person is which side we choose to let win. My wife still have a good soul I believe that. But I rarely see it anymore. All I see is the out of control evil ego.

[Duped 1]

Mine almost never apologized regardless of how nasty she was. No remorse =bad person imo.