Happy Chaotic Holidays

[Notwendy]

BPD mother got a refund check and I deposited it into her savings.

She isn't able to do the online transfers from her bank from savings to checking. She asks me to do it. She had agreed to let it stay there until we knew her Social Security and Medicare numbers for 2025. But agreements with her don't mean anything. She also got a notice from Social Security but didn't tell me what it was.

She prefers to have one on one caregivers but that is costly. But she also sees the money in her account and wants it.

She gets what she wants by creating a need. I sound jaded about this but she has done this many times before- has a "medical" crisis. She "falls" but is it really a fall? I don't know. She slides herself off her bed and then calls the nurses.

They usually check her out and all is fine but this time, she was saying she has pain so they sent her to the emergency room. BPD mother has spent the holidays in the hospital.

She's had mental status changes in the past that look like dementia and confusion. It was found that this happens when someone gives her Ativan. So she's been taken off it and it hasn't happened again. Now, in hospital, she's anxious and so they gave her another similar drug. She's now doing what she did on Ativan.

Or is she? She's called me up saying she's being poisoned there and she's dizzy and then, she leaves a perfectly clear and lucid message "you need to transfer that money into checking".

If this sounds like going to extremes, she has self harmed in the past to get people to do what she wants. I don't know what they are doing for her in the hospital. I get bits and pieces of information, but the staff does not call me regularly and I don't try to call them. They are short staffed and it is difficult to get ahold of them.

She has faked medical crisis and been sent to emergency room. She also has real physical issues and they are obligated to investigate and to treat her. So now she's been admitted.

She called me up demanding that I transfer the money. If I try to ask her any questions she says she can't hear me. She also sounded irrational, so I ended the conversation. I also thought it was unsafe for her to have money in checking since she seemed irrational.

She left an eerie message on my phone. In witch mode. It was scary. I felt like a terrified child when I heard it. She didn't use "me" or "I". It started with "Your mother" .

"Your mother is hurting"
"Help me"
"You're stronger than I am now".

Then some strange statements that didn't make a lot of sense.

This message felt so creepy.

A few minutes after that message she leaves another one, very clear.

"Please transfer $_____________. Thank you"

She had a visitor later. I asked for an update. The visitor then said "she wants to know about a money transfer".

I feel I should be empathetic to her situation but also I don't know what is real and what is manipulation. I feel jaded. I know she can not stand to see any money in the bank- like an addict- she has to have it. I understand now why my father just gave into her wishes - because of the extremes of her behavior. It's her money and she can have it but caution says to wait for discharge planning as she may need it for something then.

[CC43]

Hi Notwendy,

Happy chaotic holidays indeed. It seems like you have a very good read on the situation. Your mom handles money like an addict, and seeing it in her account makes her want it incessantly. She will bug you about it until you give in. You asked her to wait until she learns what she’s going to need it for. Well, in her mind she has already waited, and she needs it now!  She’s not sophisticated enough to distinguish between wants and needs, as she’s the type who needs everything right away, even if it means she won’t have anything at the end of the month. Her current « needs » take precedence.

Regarding her health, there’s probably a mix of legitimate issues and faked ones. My uNPD fakes ailments all the time, to get out of doing things he doesn’t want to do, as well as to get attention.   He is a frequent user of urgent care, especially for non-urgent matters—but with his distorted thinking, everything is urgent. Yet he refuses to see a doctor to address his real long-term issues!  He thinks his body is special and that conventional treatments don’t work on him. Alas, he spent Boxing Day in urgent care with his kids during visitation. He had them at grandma’s for Christmas, but the next day he didn’t have anyone else to tend to him and the kids but himself. He went to urgent care to get some attention!

I imagine you know these behavioral patterns well, but they still wear you down. It’s not fun being pestered all the time. It’s not fun when someone takes advantage of your genuine concern to manipulate you. It’s not fun being the responsible one, and instead of getting thanks, all you get is grief. It’s not fun trying to be a good daughter and yearning for a close relationship with your mom when she’s incapable of acting motherly. I hope you find some time to do something nice for yourself, because you deserve it.

[Notwendy]

Thanks CC43- Yes, the hospital visits are confusing because we can't know what is real and what isn't- and I have seen her make false claims, self harm, and she also has real physical conditions, and has been non compliant with prescribed care. I have felt empathy for her but it seems when I do- it's exploited.

I will do something nice for myself. I have company over the holidays too- and that is wonderful, but I also will do some things for me. I'm sorry your NPD person spent his holiday at urgent care. I think the need for attention and stress is increased during the holidays.

I have learned a lot about my mother's behaviors since she's been in assisted living. I knew a lot already but not the financial details. Apparently there was money- but as you said- if there's money she wants it incessantly. I didn't understand the decisions that were made about it but I do now. In our family, it was give her what she wants immediately- the rest of us would compromise, because the consequences of her not having what she wants were dramatic.

[CC43]

Hi there,

It's weird, my mom is the opposite of yours.  She has money, and yet she is reluctant to spend it.  My role sometimes comes down to saying, it's OK mom, you have enough money, and you should enjoy it now, while you still can.  Some of your grandkids would benefit from a little extra help, too.  She has a scarcity mindset--fear of running out of money, and guilt when spending it.  I confess, I share that mindset too, because I grew up that way, and it's part of my natural disposition to plan for the long term.  But now I'm telling myself, after a lifetime of scrimping and saving, money is meant to be spent, enjoyed and invested in things I value.  Money gives me choices, and I should feel free to make them, not be a slave to saving.  I try to embrace a mindset of abundance, to balance out my "default" of scarcity.  But in your mom's case, she's gone too far with the "abundance" mindset--maybe because that's what she grew up with, and maybe because that's her natural inclination.  She doesn't fear the future, or look very far ahead, so for her, it's all about spending it NOW.  Maybe she doesn't fear about meeting her needs in the future because she's always had others take care of her!

[Methuen]

Or is she? She's called me up saying she's being poisoned there and she's dizzy and then, she leaves a perfectly clear and lucid message "you need to transfer that money into checking".

Sigh.

I’m so sorry.

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way to respond to this.

You can do the transfer and let her experience the natural consequences.  She won’t be happy with that either when she runs out of money for something else she needs.  Everything will always be your fault.

Or you can just not do the etransfer.  This would be a responsible and rational decision and in her best interests as POA, but it has consequences.  I would block her if you opt for this.

It’s a lose- lose dilemma.

My bigger concern is your labeling yourself as jaded.

I get it.  

I have a dear friend who has told me I’m a pessimist.  My rebuttal is that I am a realist.

Someone has probably labeled you as jaded.  This is because they don’t have a BPD mother with your mother’s behaviors.

I don’t think you have to accept the term “jaded” which is loaded with negative connotation.  

The whole of it is that your “mother” has not behaved as a mother in your life.  You have thoughtfully analyzed and articulated the facts of the current situation based on historical experience. But these are the “facts”.  So why are you calling yourself jaded?  Inner critic at work?

Be kinder to yourself.

She left an eerie message on my phone. In witch mode. It was scary. I felt like a terrified child when I heard it. She didn't use "me" or "I". It started with "Your mother" .

"Your mother is hurting"
"Help me"
"You're stronger than I am now".

Her use of third person is a strategy for taking control.  She knows you and how to push your buttons.  And she knows the effect this will have on you.  That’s why she does it.  Because it works for her.

[/quote] Then some strange statements that didn't make a lot of sense.

This message felt so creepy.

A few minutes after that message she leaves another one, very clear.

"Please transfer $_____________. Thank you"

She had a visitor later. I asked for an update. The visitor then said "she wants to know about a money transfer".

I feel I should be empathetic to her situation but also I don't know what is real and what is manipulation. I feel jaded. I know she can not stand to see any money in the bank- like an addict- she has to have it. I understand now why my father just gave into her wishes - because of the extremes of her behavior. It's her money and she can have it but caution says to wait for discharge planning as she may need it for something
 then. [/quote]

Yes. Of course.  This is what a rational and responsible person would do.

That poor visitor was just “used” and has no insight into your mom.

However you decide to respond, consider blocking your phone and then taking care of you. My only recommendation is to take your time responding (while you think) so that whatever you decide, you are satisfied with yourself.

You are not jaded NW. You are rational and realistic with the cards you’ve been dealt. And doing the best you can.

[zachira]

I agree with Methuen there is not a right or wrong way to respond to this. Whatever you decide, you will be doing your best to do what is in your mother's best interests while setting the boundaries you need for your best self care. My take on this is your mother could request some services at the hospital that the costs could not be predicted ahead of time, not covered by her insurance, so you might want to limit what you transfer into her bank account. Enjoy your company and the holidays.

[Notwendy]

CC43 has a point - BPD mother doesn't worry about the future in terms of money because she always was taken care of. I have asked some of her family- were they wealthy? I think they were OK financially but not wealthy.

Dad came from a blue collar family but earned a solid living. I would describe our finances as a family as lopsided. BPD mother lived "wealthy" the rest of us understood a budget. Her reply "you didn't want for anything" was accurate. We didn't lack material needs but the message about money was strange. I also have a scarcity mindset. BPD mother feels entitled. It's like wealthy and needing to budget lived in the same house.

In BPD mother's era, people married young. BPD mother lived at home - went to college while living at home. Met my father shortly after college and he took care of her.

BPD mother can not manage being left alone, even for a short time. It's an emotional need. If she's left alone even for a little while, she calls people constantly. This is her "addiction": all addictions are dysfunctional ways of dealing with difficult feelings. People use drugs or alcohol to numb them out ,or gamble or shop excessivly to get a surge of endorphins BPD mother has her ways of dealing with her feelings- one is to somehow have a medical crisis and need care. This brings the attention to her.

She is human and some of her medical issues have been real but some have not, so it's confusing. We obviously don't want to be neglectful but also it's a fine line to not enable disordered behavior. She has also self harmed to attain this so the situation may be real and also self inflicted.

She's had several episodes of these medical situations. During these times she has required extra help but she got to the point where it was not affordable. Surprisingly- she didn't have a "crisis" when the money was not available. Then she got a refund check.

This is my conclusion: I think the money precipiated the "crisis". She saw she had it and this is how she gets the additional care which meets an emotional need.

When we moved her to assisted living, she seemed to manage for a short while. Then the house sold and the money was transfered into her account. She has since then had a series of medical crises but after the money in her saving was gone, she didn't for a while.

Then she got the refund and now- crisis. I don't know if she situation just happened or is self inflicted but- having seen her behavior, I wonder. To Methuen- this is what I mean by feeling jaded- and I agree, I am not a jaded person but the expected reaction is to feel upset and sympathetic to an elderly person in the hospital, I also wonder if she's being manipulative.

Even on blocked phone calls she can leave a message. She's gone from witchy ones to leaving nice ones and now to waify ones. I am on the fence about how to release the money from savings.  There is no correct way. It's technically hers so she gets it.

One way is to just put it all in checking, let her do what she wants with it. Once it's gone she will blame me for that. There's also the risk of her feeling abandoned since the money issue is a contact for her with me.

Another way is to ask her how much she wants in checking. She will ask for some of it, not all of it- which is a continued contact for her to call me for it.

The other aspect of this is that this is what she wants and it enables her behaviors. But it's tempting to do this to get her to stop.

I did put a smaller amount in her checking for her because to see it there and not have it is distressful for her. Like an addict going through withdrawal. I don't want to cause additional distress for her.

I spoke to her nurse coordinator about her discharge plans. Due to the hospitalization, she will need extra care when she returns to assisted living. I asked for an estimate of the cost per week. I told her there is only enough for a short while. Once I get the estimated cost, I can set an automatic transfer for that time period- one week, or two? I don't know yet. I am leaning towards doing this.

[Methuen]

Is there another option of turning over the management of her spending to an accountant?  I don’t even know if accountants do that kind of thing…

I also don’t know what a trust is or how it works. 

I’m really just “musing” on whether there is some tool or other avenue to have this managed by someone other than yourself since there is so much manipulation by her and also because she is irresponsible with her money (since money management was always taken care of for her and she could presumably just spend as needed).  The responsibility of managing it for her comes with a degree of chaos for you, but other options might also come with a cost.

Is it worth investigating, maybe with a lawyer or accountant?

It’s interesting to imagine that an independent third party would simply say “no - you’ve spent your discretionary funds this month.  There’s no more spending possible until next month “. It’s all just a simple numbers spreadsheet to someone else.  There’s no emotional history, or fear, or layers of difficult memories to cloud things, and her power and control games would have little effect. I think it was a suggestion from Zachira as a way of unloading this demanding and thankless job off your hands.

But then again, I’m not even sure if this is something you would want to give up, because this way you know what is going on.

Just musing for alternative thoughts and/or solutions.

[Notwendy]

I suggested this idea to my fatherbut I know now that he would not have been able to do this. I also asked a lawyer about it. As long as she is considered legally competent, she'd have to agree. She won't do that as she wants control. do

It may have helped to have an accountant after she sold the house but she doesn't even have enough assets to cover the cost of one now even if she were to agree to one.

Mostly the best I tried to do for her is to keep her out of financial trouble but it's not possible to help someone who doesn't seem to care enough to do that too.

[GaGrl]

NW, does your mother expect that you and your sibling will subsidize her financial needs at some point?

[Notwendy]

She won't actually say that but yes, I believe she would like that, and if we aren't willing to do it ( by discussion) , she would force the matter. It meets her emotional needs and her narcisism.

If there was an actual need, cooperative relationship, I would be willing. We helped with my mother in law a bit but she was kind and careful with her money. My mother had a lot of money and she gets a monthly income from investments. It would meet her needs if she used it carefully.

We aren't cruel and wouldn't allow her to not have her basic needs met, but she could meet them. She's vindictive and abusive. She's destroyed her own finances and would do it to ours if she could. So, yes, some of these attempts at financial management are to minimize damage.

She will not qualify for Medicaid assistance with any unmet need. We have looked into that. If it comes to a situation where we would have to pay, I will contact the elder law attorney to assist me with gaining more control. I think in the situation of her having actual need, we may be able to do that but the attorney has said unless there's need, we would have to take her to court and prove mental incompetence. We don't have proof of that ( we'd need her to be assessed by a psychologist- she'd hold it together for that evaluation).

I told her I wouldn't accept an inheritance if this is her motive. But she's abusive. She also gets something out of being hurtful. She does destroy property- in her rages she's trashed the house, destroyed personal objects and my father's finances. She also has a need to be taken care of. So if this involves our finances, this meets both needs.

[Methuen]

The remarkable thing in all this is their propensity to make their own situation worse.  It’s like a choice to spin from a bad situation to a worse one.

My mom’s ophthalmologist told her that home care was needed to put in her drops or she could go blind.  That was 3 or 4 years ago. She didn’t like people coming into her home to put her drops in.  She wasn’t in control.  So she cancelled home care.  She would show and tell everyone she could do it - even as the drops missed her eyes completely and were running down her cheek and she was wiping them away. 

It’s not possible to argue with irrational. She was angry at everyone telling her the drops weren’t getting in (including home care) and cancelled the service, and continued to tell everyone she could get her own drops in.

Now she is legally blind in the eye that had the infection.  And the other eye is 100/20. 

Every person who comes to visit she tells them how awful it is to live alone and not be able to see. All she does is complain that she can’t see. But she doesn’t connect the dots.

Home care got involved after her last assessment and is now putting the drops back in.  We speculate that when they gave her the choice, it may have been a capacity test, and that’s why she agreed.

So now she’s nearly blind, can’t do her crafts or even see the tv anymore, and lives alone with all her other problems.

I spelled it out for her when she was about to cancel her home care service a few years ago and painted this exact picture of what would happen.  She got angry. 

She looks for pity and attention from everyone.  Her plan was to live with us.

We had boundaries.

Although the situation with your mom is about finances instead of vision, the remarkable thing is their ability to hurt and destroy themselves, and take others down with them.

I truly believe their brains aren’t wired to make rational decisions.  I believe they don’t have the capacity to anticipate consequences. It’s a lack of executive functioning. I just can’t see any other reason why a person would choose blindness or poverty over accepting help with their eyes or spending less.

I don’t know how much they suffer because I am not my mom.  But I know how much I have suffered as I have had to endure helplessly observing her self destruction. And I can empathize with your suffering NW.  These situations are bizarre. And it’s such a helpless feeling for us.  As you said, it’s not possible to help someone who refuses to be helped.

Hence the term “borderline”.  Crazy, but not crazy enough to be declared.

So they live a life of spinning from bad to worse and force us to observe and participate in the craziness because we share blood.

I wish it didn’t have to be this way.

I don’t know if you document as these things with your mom occur.  We started documenting about 4 years ago.  Emails, texts, recordings, notes.  So if it ever comes down to the law, we’re prepared.

I don’t imagine there is another family member of hers that would be willing to take over this task of managing her finances, to give you a break?

 

[Methuen]

You know, I get that autonomy is important as it applies to the mentally ill and elderly and others, but I question how far it has to go before capacity comes into question.  And I also question the fairness of the burden left on families and how it can actually contribute to augmenting the mental health crisis at a population level.

I wish there could be an answer to make this situation better for you NW.

If your mom burns through her financial resources, it shouldn’t be your obligation to support her financially.  It shouldn’t be any different than me not being able to give my mom her vision back.  It was their choice, enabled by a system that says they have capacity.

[Notwendy]

No, it shouldn't. But in the US, the laws are in favor of the elderly parent and some states have (hers included) have laws requiring adult children to contribute if necessary. Apparently the laws are rarely enforced (because most parents won't do this to their children and they plan for Medicaid if needed- BPD mother won't qualify).There is also an ethical line here- some things are essential- medicine, health insurance. .

I am thankful every day that my father arranged for her to have some income in her elder years. I think if it ever came to us needing to contribute extra we could also make a case in court to control that income. To attempt to do it now would be a wasted effort. For now, she has had savings to cover her excesses but those savings are sparse.

This is one reason I consulted a lawyer. I knew she'd do this. It's like the bridge story- get herself in dire straits. We can't really control what she does but are attempting to protect ourselves as much as possible.

In your community, you are expected to provide care for your mother. It's similar in the US. It is expected that families contribute in some ways to elder care, either with hands on care or with assistance. People who have no resources at all can attain Medicaid help.

I've said before that this is another example of not having a "normal" mother. It's not easy to care for an elderly parent but seeing my friends do this with their parents- they also feel a sense of connection to it, they are willing to give something back to the parent who loved and nurtured them. We would be willing to do this too. I know you are as well. But this is not "normal".

[Methuen]

I've said before that this is another example of not having a "normal" mother. It's not easy to care for an elderly parent but seeing my friends do this with their parents- they also feel a sense of connection to it, they are willing to give something back to the parent who loved and nurtured them. We would be willing to do this too. I know you are as well. But this is not "normal".

Exactly