child used as means to hurt my feelings

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

In their rage, my ex possibly with BPD has told my 3 year old that I dont care about him.

She is starting to escalate doing this and now had him hold up a sign and took a picture and sent it to me with it asking why i didnt choose the family?

In her rage, she tells me that our child will come to hate me one day even though she is visibly hurting our sons feelings.

Days later i received a gentle sorry but that i need to "make her feel better and listen (to her rage) and not cut her off" .

Counselors familar with us gently urged me to read stop walking on egg shells, though she has never been formally diagnosed with BPD ... .and i have been told not to mention the possibility as that will infuriate her further... .

My question is, if she is suffering from BPD, is it normal to use your child to get even? Is this a one time thing or will it escalate unless legal intervention is required?
Just trying to understand the BPD mind in this context. She normally is very protective of him and loves him except during these times?

Sorry for rambling, feeling emotional.

[mpte]

In their rage, my ex possibly with BPD has told my 3 year old that I dont care about him.

She is starting to escalate doing this and now had him hold up a sign and took a picture and sent it to me with it asking why i didnt choose the family?

In her rage, she tells me that our child will come to hate me one day even though she is visibly hurting our sons feelings.

Days later i received a gentle sorry but that i need to "make her feel better and listen (to her rage) and not cut her off" .

Counselors familar with us gently urged me to read stop walking on egg shells, though she has never been formally diagnosed with BPD ... .and i have been told not to mention the possibility as that will infuriate her further... .

My question is, if she is suffering from BPD, is it normal to use your child to get even? Is this a one time thing or will it escalate unless legal intervention is required?
Just trying to understand the BPD mind in this context. She normally is very protective of him and loves him except during these times?

Sorry for rambling, feeling emotional.

[Mutt]

Hi mpte,  



I'd like to welcome you to bpdfamily. I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'm glad that you decided to join us there is hope. A couple of things come to mind when I read your post.

Firstly, BPD i as persecution complex and the person truly believes that their circumstances are caused externally by others and not from their own actions or impulsive choices. You, your son and your spouse make three people along a triangle. A pwBPD will cast themselves primarily in the role of victim ( persecution complex) and sometimes in the role of rescuer, the final corner of the triangle is persecutor and the non is usually cast in this role and sometimes in the role of rescuer. This is just an observation but we're usually cast in the role of rescuer in the honeymoon phase of the r/s, I heard my tell stories about her exes and they were both split black and cast as persecutors. That being said.

Your spouse > rescuer, your son > victim and yourself > persecutor, does that make sense?

Lastly, BPD is a disorder where the person cannot regulate their emotions, they can't self sooth, it takes a pwBPD much longer to return to baseline. Think of something were it was very emotional for you and how it affected your reasoning. A pwBPD feel emotions two thousand fold and when their in emotionally dysregulated it impairs their judgment. I can relate with my involving the kids in our fights, to your or I it's not appropriate but it's almost impossible for a pwBPD to be using good judgment when they're emotionally dysregulated. I hope that helps.

Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle‎.

[livednlearned]

In their rage, my ex possibly with BPD has told my 3 year old that I dont care about him.

How painful for your S3

This sounds like the beginning of parental alienation, which seems to go hand-in-hand with BPD.

The antidote for helping S3 deal with this is to validate how he feels. "Mom told you I don't care about you. How did that make you feel when she said that?" Let him discharge the emotions he feels about that -- his mom is trying to replace his true feelings with her own. Validation helps him learn to trust his feelings. He'll need help from you with this. Most of us are tempted to dispute the claim, "It's not true that I don't care about you." This may make you feel good, but it skips over the damage done to S3's feelings about how it felt that mom even said that in the first place.

She is starting to escalate doing this and now had him hold up a sign and took a picture and sent it to me with it asking why i didnt choose the family?

Wow. That is really out there.

Hang on to that photo.

In her rage, she tells me that our child will come to hate me one day even though she is visibly hurting our sons feelings.

Most pwBPD see their kids as an extension of themselves -- they have no boundaries between self and other, including (maybe especially) a child. So if your ex is furious with you, she will actively work to make sure your child feels the same way, erasing the child's feelings and replacing them with her own.

My question is, if she is suffering from BPD, is it normal to use your child to get even? Is this a one time thing or will it escalate unless legal intervention is required?

You may want to read what Dr. Craig Childress has written on the topic of parental alienation. He has a book that is very informative (a bit academic). Then there is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, which may explain scenarios that kids experience as they get older. I also highly recommend Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Children when a parent has BPD.

If you are baffled by BPD, I also recommend Alan Masterson's In Search of the Real Self. For a layperson, it does a pretty good job explaining what is happening for someone with a personality disorder.

What kind of current custody arrangement do you have for S3?

[mpte]

Thank you both for the replies.
Yes, i will look into the books both of you have given me.
I have read (and reading again to review the material) Stop walking on eggshells.
I teaching college classes so i like the depth of the material and want to understand the motivations of why they make the choices they do (as opposed to"why is this happening to me". I liked both of your posts explanation and I fear my son losing his own identity to meet the needs of his mother. This scares me

1 Splitting 2. no sense of self but a "group self" of how people (me; my son) are supposed to be really stand out are traits that really stand out. Her behavior definitely fits a "high-functioning" BPD.

On a side note, she has "apologized" ... .though based on what i now know i will have to prepare for the next time.

I will go through all books you referenced and choose my next BPD book.


I have my son 30% of week (non-custodial obviously). Thursday night to Sat night. I provide spousal and child support until next september where she will be working... .then child support.
Based on the book and your explanations... .it will be a long divorce/child raising process.

[livednlearned]

Based on the book and your explanations... .it will be a long divorce/child raising process.

Yes

Her emotional immaturity will be a constant part of the coparenting dynamic.

Altho, there are positives for you: it is fortunate that your ex wife has tender cycles. She can recognize a dysregulation occurred. And your son will not be in a state of chronic stress because he will be with you 30 percent of the time, a chance to decompress. Therapists say this is really important. It is much worse for a child to be in a chronic state of stress with no understanding there is an alternative way to be, and a chance to lower stress levels.

Also, you are starting early with these skills, like validation. It may become second nature to validate your wife's emotions, so that she does not get worse. It won't prevent her from having strong moods but it will give you skills to keep escalations from running off the rails.

One thing that has helped me is recognizing a pwBPD cannot problem solve when emotionally aroused. This made me realize I could focus on validation during the emotional arousal and then later, when things were calmer, raise any issues that required reason or logic.

For example, when your ex apologized about what she did, that's a sign she is not so dysregulated. It might be a time to say, "I understand, you felt angry and hurt. Sometimes when I'm angry, I find it helps to xyz. What are some things that might work for you that could help, without hurting S3?"

[ForeverDad]

I too faced negative innuendoes and little 'parental alienation' jabs.  So have many here.  You can't stop her from doing that.  Maybe court will order her not to disparage you to the children or in the presence of the children.  (After years of continuing conflict that is on factor that put me in a better parenting schedule.  I started out with 22% at 3 years old, by age 11 it was75%, yes, an unfortunately long process.)  However, you know she doesn't listen to you, possibly she won't pay much attention to the court and associated professionals either.  Since she will have time with the children when you're not around whether you are living together or not, that part is out of your hands.  What you can control is your parenting time but of course in large part you have to get that from the court and court won't step up unless the marriage is ending.

Being passive or in the background doesn't work.  Yes, the court may relegate you to the background, but don't you do that to yourself.

Years from now you'll need to be able to look your child in the eyes and tell him, "Yes, I did care for you, I did stand up for you, I did fight for you, I did my reasonable best."  Your child won't expect you to have been Superman, but he will want, no, need, you to assure him you didn't willingly walk away.  Believe me, that is the message she will be relentlessly pounding into him over the years, whether directly or subtly.  ":)addy didn't care about you", ":)addy abandoned you", etc.

My ex did that forcefully even before we separated... .   "Papi no te quiere pero mami te quiere." - Translation:  Daddy doesn't want/love you but mommy does.

My actions proved otherwise.  Yes, in the temp orders I was non-primary minority time parent and that lasted about 2.5 years but that was the court's arbitrary decision, not mine.  The point is, do what you reasonably can within your circumstances and ability, never give up and as for the rest, well, "Let Go and Let God".

I'm curious the purpose of the counselors to tell you to stop reading SWOES.  Is it that you were making references to it to them or to your Ex?  First, it generally doesn't help telling the spouse or ex-spouse about BPD because it can be met with predictable Denial and aggressive Blame Shifting.  Second, it generally doesn't help focusing on the diagnostic aspects with the counselors and others because they often dance around the causes of the behaviors.  You may be thinking, "I found the cause!" but they're thinking, "You need to stick to dealing with the behaviors."  I eventually reached the conclusion that the professionals associated with the court process aren't trying to fix either parent, they limit themselves to dealing with the behaviors.  That is a perspective that may help you search for the more effective strategies.

I was in and out of family court from late 2005 to early 2014.  I really believe they kept hoping and expecting that gentle guidance would work.  Finally toward the end the court had to get a little firmer and castigate Ex a little for "disparaging father in child's presence.  Sadly, by then our child was a pre-teen.

It appears most courts still studiously avoid categorizing a parent with a diagnosis.  While each case is a little different, a time-proven approach is to call attention to the poor parenting behaviors, both passive and active, and especially their impact on the children.

Be seen as the parent with all the solutions, not just all the complaints.  Do you have "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder" by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger?  It encourages a proactive approach with problem solving attorney who is experienced, capable with protracted court cases and has a variety of solid strategies.  You need more than a form filer, hand holding lawyer.

Another thought to keep in mind is that a pwBPD has some level of Black-or-White thinking, and claiming to be the one that knows what is Good and what is Evil.  While dealing with that, we need to be careful not to fall into that same my-way-only trap.  It means we are strong as parents but careful not to succumb to Blaming overmuch, it's not very productive after all.

[mpte]

I'm curious the purpose of the counselors to tell you to stop reading SWOES.  Is it that you were making references to it to them or to your Ex?  First, it generally doesn't help telling the spouse or ex-spouse about BPD because it can be met with predictable Denial and aggressive Blame Shifting.  Second, it generally doesn't help focusing on the diagnostic aspects with the counselors and others because they often dance around the causes of the behaviors.  You may be thinking, "I found the cause!" but they're thinking, "You need to stick to dealing with the behaviors."  I eventually reached the conclusion that the professionals associated with the court process aren't trying to fix either parent, they limit themselves to dealing with the behaviors.  That is a perspective that may help you search for the more effective strategies.

I am not sure if you are commenting on me or another... .still getting use to this message board style. We went to many couple counselors where are time with them was both together and separate with the same counselor. As such, i learned there are legal limitations to what a counselor can say ... .particularly with suspecting personality disorders (which makes sense as most marriage and family counselors focus on "no fault, change your behavior together  to help the marriage" strategy).

On our last days with a counselor, we often saw them separately (as my ex refused to go since i had "lied" to them about our situation). I would then go by myself to explain we would no longer go together then I would usually ask for "final advice"; whereupon, i would say goodbye to that counselor and my ex and I (married at the time) would go find a new counselor... .and the pattern would start over.

Two of the counselors had suggested looking at a book "stop walking on egg shells" as there final advice while saying that they could not definitively give any other advice and that the content of the book was for me only  to help understand the possible perspective of my ex but "highly not suggested i share material with ex nor are they officially diagnosing my ex with anything... .".

Later i learned this was a grey area of how counselors can try to help an individual client if they suspect a personality disorder without outright violating marriage counseling rules... .

I honestly didnt read the book both times that were mentioned as i was just looking for a "man and wife joint fix strategy" to help our marriage together as i believed we could rationally work though it together, as this was the common scenarios for most other troubled marriages).

 Only, after she wanted a divorce and we were in the midst of a breakup did i read the book. It was eye opening and sad expecially when i realized sharing the book with her would be pointless as everything from her perspective was truly all my fault.

Now Im in damage control... .just trying minimize collateral damage to my son the best i can... .something i really do feel responsible for.

Thank you for sharing legal timeline with your ex. Ugh... .worried i am going to have to that route eventually. I am already modifying my behavior toward her and initial responses are suprisingly helpful... .still the beginning... .

[kentavr3]

I want to share my story on alienation my daughter by ExBPDf.  we were separated for 4 months. I didn't know that all this time exBPDw pushed my daughter to record on a cell phone how my daughter unhappy when she is with me. I have very good relationship with my daughter and raise her from the minute when she was born. All recordings my daughter sent her mom. When I filed divorce and time went to the day of the custody hearing , in a examination , their side mentioned that they bring recordings in the court. Thank God, that I talk to a kids physiologist and knew what to do.  I ask my daughter to bring er smart phone. She did. I ask her to show me messages. She started hysterically crying , hitting herself and said that "she knows that she is very bad girl". and, she said that "father , you will kill me!". She fell down on the floor crying. As a loving father, I couldn't see this! Can you image how BPD injured her? I took my daughter on my hands, cover her by my arms. I told her that I love her a lot. I told her that she is not guilty. When she calmed down , I told her that need to read these messages. I calmly read them in front of my daughter , but not in voice. I returned her a smartphone. I told her that , I'm sorry, but I can't let her use smartphone while she is with me. The home phone she can use, but not smart phone. This restriction called a rage of exBPD. But in custody agreement nothing was said about a smartphone. Only about access to the phone.I called to the nation kids abuse line. They said that this is not abuse. I would be very appreciate if some of you tell me about alienation and if there are the laws to use.