I need pure unbiased advice-dealing with adult children and my bfwBPD

[allienoah]

Hello again!  I feel like I need to put this out there and let all of you offer advice as my head is spinning.
this is the situation--
I divorced after 24 years of marriage to a narcissist. I held the peace, nurtured the children. We were very close, the kids and I.
My D is 24 now and lives away from home, but likes to come back to her room a few times a month and be with me.
My S is 22 and about to graduate college. He hasn't decided whether he is coming back home or not. One thing is for sure. If I am still with my bf my son is out of my life. As will be my D
They say they will have no respect for me if I chose to be with someone who treats me as he does, and doesn't allow me to freely see them. My bf insists on being in the house if they come over as he feels he should be able to live without "restrictions".
I did not go about my divorce, entering into my r/s with my bf in the best way. My kids were hurt, even though they fully supported the divorce. They just feel like I left one bully for another. Which is true.
My bf says I should tell them they are not welcome until they "respect" me and my r/s. He also rants and rages about how they have no right to expect anything from me-favors, help, advice-until they accept him.
If my D wants to sleep over, my bf insists I tell her he will be there, thereby making her feel unwanted and mad at me for allowing him to control me. This always ends up with me telling my bf "no I won't do that" and him raging for the week, breaking up with me and devaluing me. My D has seen this behavior and will not be in his presence. My son is less dramatic about it and simply says he is done with me  if I am with my bf. Some people feel I should not be allowing my children to dictate who is welcome and when in my home. Others feel my bf should allow me my alone time with my kids. He takes it as "he is not my priority".  I just need some outside guidance--am I abandoning my kids for my bf? Is my bf being unreasonable? My head spins with this so much. I am NOT going to give up good relationships with my children for him-not after all of the abuse I have taken. Is there some way to work this out?

[Fie]

Hello Allienoah  


What a terrible situation to be in. I want to give you a big hug. 

I know how difficult and strenuous it is to live with someone with BPD/NPD. It's no surprise your head is spinning.

Is my bf being unreasonable?

Yes, I would say he definitely is. It is absolutely normal that you'd get alone time with your kids. They are your kids ! Also their reaction to him seems nothing more than normal to me.

Do you feel like there are other boundaries that are crossed by your bf, as well ?

[abraxus]

Are your children really dictating who is in your home? Or are they just setting their own boundaries, and saying that they don't wish to be there if he is? If so, that doesn't seem to be unreasonable if their assessment of him is correct.

Your boyfriend, on the other hand, has no right to expect them to accept him, as they are adults, and are entitled to their own opinion, and you're entitled to see them on whatever terms you wish.

Either way, you seem to be looking for a compromise, where neither side will budge. You're caught in the middle, trying to please both sides. I think the first step is to get out of the middle and put yourself first. What do you want? Do you want them to visit and accept his presence, or would you prefer that they come and he wasn't there?

I guess what I'm saying is that the starting point is what you really want, and then working backwards from there.

[schwing]

Hi allienoah,

We were very close, the kids and I.

I think you need to decide if the once close relationship you have with your kids is still valuable to you or not.

One thing is for sure. If I am still with my bf my son is out of my life. As will be my D
They say they will have no respect for me if I chose to be with someone who treats me as he does, and doesn't allow me to freely see them.

It is odd that your children are making such demands of you. I would understand that they would like to spend time with you and not necessarily with you bf.  After all, they don't really have a relationship with your bf - they only want to maintain their relationship with you.

My bf insists on being in the house if they come over as he feels he should be able to live without "restrictions".

It's also odd that your bf is unwilling to allow you some space to spend time with your children.  After all they are your children (not his).  But he seems to expect some kind of respect or deference from them?  

Now people with BPD (pwBPD) have a tendency to isolate their favored partner from their partner's other loved ones or family members.  From a pwBPD's perspective, they see all other loved ones as possible instigators for their possible (imagined) abandonment.  If your bf suffers from BPD, then this behavior is his fear of (imagined) abandonment motivating him.

My bf says I should tell them they are not welcome until they "respect" me and my r/s. He also rants and rages about how they have no right to expect anything from me-favors, help, advice-until they accept him.

This is all well and good for him to seem to "defend" you. But he has zero attachment to your children.  It makes no impact to him if you no longer have a relationship with your children.  And it may even aggravate his disordered feelings if you do.

That he rants and rages about  "expect[ing] favors, help, advice" seems to me he is the one who (inappropriately) feels offended by your children's behavior.  Or is he not alone in this?

If my D wants to sleep over, my bf insists I tell her he will be there, thereby making her feel unwanted and mad at me for allowing him to control me. This always ends up with me telling my bf "no I won't do that" and him raging for the week, breaking up with me and devaluing me.

Which behavior is more controlling?  Your D not wanting to sleep over with a man with whom she is only barely acquainted present?  Or your bf "raging for the week, breaking up with [you] and devaluing [you]?

Some people feel I should not be allowing my children to dictate who is welcome and when in my home.

Are they dictating who is or is not welcome in your home?  Or do they have specific reasons why they do not favor a specific person to be in your home when they wish to visit?

Others feel my bf should allow me my alone time with my kids. He takes it as "he is not my priority". 

So a boyfriend feels that he should be a "priority" over your adult children.  What kind of person would feel jealousy towards the children of someone they care about?

I just need some outside guidance--am I abandoning my kids for my bf?

Your children are adults. Whatever decision you make, you will not be abandoning them; they can take care of themselves.  However your decision may push them to limit the kind of relationship you will be willing to maintain with you.

Is my bf being unreasonable? My head spins with this so much. I am NOT going to give up good relationships with my children for him-not after all of the abuse I have taken. Is there some way to work this out?

Is your bf being unreasonable? What do you think?

Is it reasonable to give up "good relationships" with your children for your bf?

Would you consider visiting your children without your bf?  Or would your bf not permit it?

Frankly I don't see why your bf couldn't be somewhere else for a few days while you catch up with your children.  :)oesn't he have a life outside of being your priority?

Hope some of this helps.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[allienoah]

Hi allienoah,

I think you need to decide if the once close relationship you have with your kids is still valuable to you or not.
This is extremely important to me... .



It is odd that your children are making such demands of you. I would understand that they would like to spend time with you and not necessarily with you bf.  After all, they don't really have a relationship with your bf - they only want to maintain their relationship with you.

Yes and they feel my bf's controlling my by yelling at me when I want to spend time-that I could be with him(which is whenever I'm not at work) -with them.

It's also odd that your bf is unwilling to allow you some space to spend time with your children.  After all they are your children (not his).  But he seems to expect some kind of respect or deference from them?  
He wants them to "accept "him-doesn't realize the more they hear him rage, the worse it is.

Now people with BPD (pwBPD) have a tendency to isolate their favored partner from their partner's other loved ones or family members.  From a pwBPD's perspective, they see all other loved ones as possible instigators for their possible (imagined) abandonment.  If your bf suffers from BPD, then this behavior is his fear of (imagined) abandonment motivating him.


I now understand that part of BPD. It is so difficult when those I love are at odds with each other.

This is all well and good for him to seem to "defend" you. But he has zero attachment to your children.  It makes no impact to him if you no longer have a relationship with your children.  And it may even aggravate his disordered feelings if you do.

That he rants and rages about  "expect[ing] favors, help, advice" seems to me he is the one who (inappropriately) feels offended by your children's behavior.  Or is he not alone in this? I am not offended by their behavior-when he is not in the picture they could not be more caring or respectful. I know they are so fearful he will just envelope me even more.

Which behavior is more controlling?  Your D not wanting to sleep over with a man with whom she is only barely acquainted present?  Or your bf "raging for the week, breaking up with [you] and devaluing [you]?

Honestly my bf is more controlling. That is why no one I am close to likes him.

Are they dictating who is or is not welcome in your home?  Or do they have specific reasons why they do not favor a specific person to be in your home when they wish to visit? They don't like the way he is around me, nor how I act-always deferring to him.

So a boyfriend feels that he should be a "priority" over your adult children.  What kind of person would feel jealousy towards the children of someone they care about?

Your children are adults. Whatever decision you make, you will not be abandoning them; they can take care of themselves.  However your decision may push them to limit the kind of relationship you will be willing to maintain with you.

Is your bf being unreasonable? What do you think? I don't think he is being reasonable at all. He feels that just because his kids accept me--they are 15-20 ---that mine should accept him. He can't see that I don't behave as he does, I don't have BPD

Is it reasonable to give up "good relationships" with your children for your bf? No it is not reasonable at all. So why am I even in this situation? ugh

Would you consider visiting your children without your bf?  Or would your bf not permit it? I usually do see them without him now. It is the fighting that goes into me telling him I am doing so that is horrible. He rages that I shouldn't be and if I do he HAS to be there.

Frankly I don't see why your bf couldn't be somewhere else for a few days while you catch up with your children.  :)oesn't he have a life outside of being your priority? He makes me his priority-even when I don't want/need him to. His main focus is convincing me that he has to be first and foremost in my mind.

Hope some of this helps.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[allienoah]

I completely interspersed my answers directly into your quote, Schwing--
I thank you for all of your questions to me . It made me see more clearly that I am not going out of my mind nor being unreasonable, or "controlled" by my children. He is afraid of abandonment-real or perceived. And he sees my kids as a threat. Bottom line.

[Notwendy]

This isn't an unusual situation with a B

.
To me, this is a manifestation of the drama triangle. It is happening with your BF and your adult children, but it may also happen if he was your H, and even their father. Adult children have the right to decide that enough is enough when dealing with a disordered person, even a disordered parent.

Yes, I think your BF is being unreasonable to not allow you to have some private time with your children. Unfortunately this puts you in a difficult position. If he won't allow you to be alone with them, this harms your relationship with them. If you insist on spending time with your children, you fear this may harm your relationship with your BF.

The solution would be to have private time with your kids, and private time with your BF and have both in your life. For this to happen, you will need to make this a boundary with your BF. Stand firm for your relationship with your children. However, this also gives him the choice- to continue a relationship with you or not. If you decide to see your children privately, you risk this relationship.

This is the situation, and you can not control the choices of anyone but you. I think it will help for you to spend some time thinking about what you really want - the kids, or your BF, even if you care about them both. However, you may also consider that if your BF isn't considerate of your relationship with your kids, is this someone you want to be with?

If this is a choice you truly want to make- your BF and not your kids, it won't be easy for either of you, but it is something you all would have to accept. Consider that this will include not being present in their future- weddings, possible grandchildren. Which do you think you would regret? The boyfriend or being a part of your children's lives over the years?

[allienoah]

Notwendy--thank you for your even, reasonable response. You really summed up the crux of the matter with the decision being mine to make. I know deep down that my bf is being completely unreasonable. I know he is afraid of being abandoned. He is threatened my devotion to them, even though I have pulled back considerably since being in this relationship. The thought of being a "guest" at my children's major milestones to come, instead of an integral part is not one I like at all. I think the hurt and resentment will be too much. I would have to think I would eventually get over the pain of leaving my bf. I just have a great deal of trouble with the thought of detaching. I have been back and forth with this decision as the stress of this is making me ill. But I do relate and understand everything you said and agree that is the reality of the situation. You seem to have a good grasp of my situation. Would you have any suggestions for how I could approach setting the boundary with my bf? As it is so sensitive to him, I am not sure how to begin in a non-threatening way.

[Grey Kitty]

Would you have any suggestions for how I could approach setting the boundary with my bf? As it is so sensitive to him, I am not sure how to begin in a non-threatening way.

Sadly, any time you NEED to enforce a boundary, it will be (initially, at least) threatening to him. You can make it a little less threatening if you are careful, but you cannot completely avoid it.

The more important question is this: Are you willing to enforce a boundary even though he will become upset about it?

[Notwendy]

I don't think there is an easy way to be true to yourself- but it is a necessary one to protect your values and integrity.

I know that for me, it was hard to stand up for myself. I was raised not to and also I am frightened by angry people. It took a lot of personal work for me to change. The most helpful to me was a T and a 12 step co-dependency program and my sponsor. I am grateful to my sponsor for supporting me through setting boundaries.

Both my T and sponsor helped me to stand firm in the anger storm, even though I was scared. It was important to be sure I was not in physical danger- basically the other people in my life were raging, but just that.

I also had to be willing to risk the consequences of my boundaries. That is scary. It wasn't just a romantic relationship ( I had been enabling my H) that was at risk, but with my parents too. My mother has BPD. I was not scared of losing that relationship, but I loved my father. I didn't expect that he would have been in the position to choose, but when BPD mom got angry at me, he did too.

I was not allowed to have boundaries growing up. The choice for me was- choose me, my values, or continue to appease BPD mom. The cost- a relationship with anyone in my mother's circle and that was sad. However, I also had to reconcile that they didn't choose me- but I chose me.  I didn't quite realize that until I did stand up for myself, but once I knew I could do this, it was a huge step for me in breaking co-dependent patterns.

In a way, your kids' standing up for themselves, their truth, is a good thing. They have boundaries. If the cost of that is their relationship with you, it will be hurtful, but they have the stregnth to not sell themselves out and this is something you want for them- to not dismiss their boundaries for others.

How to do this? You might lose relationships and that isn't easy, but I think we need to value ourselves in any relationship.

[allienoah]

@notwendy-
we could have been raised in the same house!
I am very interested in the 12 step co-dependency program that helped you. That sounds like something that would benefit me. It is fear holding me back, nothing else.
As much as it hurts and causes turmoil, I am very proud of my kids that they DO have boundaries and enforce them. It is amazing that they are like that as clearly I am not. They always validate me as a mom and make it clear that it is just THIS relationship with my bf that they cannot tolerate.
I guess it is a process that I have to keep  moving forward on, setting a boundary and KEEPING it. Not making exceptions/excuses.
I find lately that I am so used to his verbal onslaughts that I am becoming numb to them. Yesterday all I felt was sad, and defeated.

[Notwendy]

How we are raised does influence our romantic relationships. Working on that helped me with issues in my marriage as well.

There has been mixed reactions to 12 step groups. Some people do not feel they are a good fit. For me, I was willing to give it a try and it did. However, I have attended different groups and while the structure and principles are the same, the nature of the groups can feel different depending on the group itself. Often there are several in a community so if one doesn't feel like a fit, others might.

These groups are all modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. The big blue book written in 1938 has been adapted to several versions- for co-dependents, children of alcoholics, other addiction. What some of the early members found is that, the alcoholics would get better, and somehow their wives would hold them back from their recovery. In 1938, the model was mostly alcoholic husbands and enabling wives. They realized that this pairing was common- and so began to address the issue of enabling. Now, in our times, the issues apply to both genders and both straight and same sex relationships, but the original big book is often used for its content.

It was actually a CT who told me to go to these groups. I went hoping she would set my H straight- but she was very wise. I wanted change and for that to happen, she had to work with me. I couldn't see the connection to 12 steps- alcohol is not an issue in my relationship. However the co-dependent enabler issue and the relationships that attracts is so similar to the pairing of an enabler and an alcoholic that the model can work. It wasn't a comfortable process- more like co-dependency boot camp with a sponsor who didn't let my behavior slide. I am grateful to her for doing that.

The groups that helped me are CoDA, and ACA. One doesn't have to be a child of an alcoholic for ACA to help. It helps with dysfunction too. Usually there is a website to find "recovery" groups in any area. I would suggest attending a few different ones until you find one you think you want to stick with, and then stick with it. But going to meetings only doesn't do what getting a sponsor and going through the steps one on one does- that helped me a lot.

[Grey Kitty]

My $.02 on 12-step groups... .

I know of good outcomes from the ones that help you deal with codependency (ACA, CoDA, sometimes Al-Anon)  Others like the substance abuse one and the sexual addiction ones seem to have a perhaps disturbingly low success rate, although they all do have people who find profound success there.

Technically you need a family member who is an alcoholic to go to Al-Anon, but some of those groups are looser about that qualification than others. And you may have one anyhow.

If there are several different meetings you can make it to, do try several--the individual groups seem to have their own character, and you may find some are good for you, while others may not be so useful.

[enlighten me]

Are there any other behaviours your children have seen that upset them? My sons told me after I split from my uBPD exgf that they hated the way she always talked down to me. I knew she did it but was so used to it I never noticed it. Maybe your children are also concerned about you and not just not getting on with your boyfriend.

[allienoah]

Are there any other behaviours your children have seen that upset them? My sons told me after I split from my uBPD exgf that they hated the way she always talked down to me. I knew she did it but was so used to it I never noticed it. Maybe your children are also concerned about you and not just not getting on with your boyfriend.

My D has heard him giving me a hard time for seeing her, while I was with her. She has been present when he has shown up at my home to "talk" to me-while in a rage- when I had no idea he was coming over. She knows he screams at me as she has heard it first-hand. She also feels (correctly) that I avoid seeing her at times because he needs to be with me. He forces the issue. She feels he is manipulative, controlling and a bully. And she sees me always trying to placate him. My S hasn't seen/heard all this firsthand as he is at college, but he hears it from her, and he hates my bf as well. Both of them feel he is too demonstrative around them and dotes on me inappropriately around them. I have quashed that as I can speak up for myself if it is too much.
But I have to agree that if I saw/heard someone speaking like that to my mom I'd be upset too.

[patientandclear]

Allienoah, I admire how you straightforwardly affirm your children's perspective even though at some level it's got to be quite inconvenient for you.

[allienoah]

Thank you for that, patientandclear!
@enlighten me-My children are concerned about me. They don't like to see me bullied. I am telling you if they saw even a third of the other incidents with him, they would call the police. He has never been physical or even thrown anything, but he cuts to the quick with his tongue.
Last night after a pleasant time eating out, while still at the pub where we frequent, he became enraged at me because when asked about my plans for today, they didn't include replacing photos of us that I had gotten rid of during a recent-1 week ago-fight/breakup. I calmly stated that I had limited time today and had to get a birthday gift for a co-worker(female) and had another obligation. When I didn't include replacing the pictures the rage began. He belittled me and berated me -in public-to the point where a close by couple said to the bartender that they were going to step in because he was treating me so badly. I actually and calmly left and went home. As I was leaving I noticed the woman had sent her husband outside to make sure I was ok and not in physical danger. It was humiliating and beyond hurtful. I have gone NC since-I know it is literally only 12 hours. He texted me and called me to tell me that "he's done because he can't be with someone who doesn't put his wants/needs  first" and "how could ANYTHING be more important than fixing what he is bothered by". I actually felt good not responding and something in me clicked so instead of feeling hurt and guilty( for something I shouldn't feel guilty about) I am very angry that he treated me in this manner AGAIN.

I thank everyone on this forum for all the support and guidance as if I had never found it, I'd be a sniveling puddle right now going crazy trying to soothe him. I don't know what the next few hours/days will bring. But right now I do feel stronger.

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, that is getting really bad if strangers in public are ready to intervene on your behalf. 

I'm kinda worried about the next time(s) you see him in private 'cuz most pwBPD tend to have a better public face, and do worse things in private than they do in public. Please don't delay on changing your locks.

He texted me and called me to tell me that "he's done because he can't be with someone who doesn't put his wants/needs  first" and "how could ANYTHING be more important than fixing what he is bothered by". I actually felt good not responding and something in me clicked so instead of feeling hurt and guilty( for something I shouldn't feel guilty about) I am very angry that he treated me in this manner AGAIN.

   I'm so happy for you that you are starting to feel right when you do what you know is the right thing.

Anyhow, when he says stuff like that, there are two ways for you to interpret it.

1. It is rage/dysregulation talking, disconnect from him, for the duration, and wait for him to come down to earth, and give him a chance to feel differently. (Don't expect a good apology or anything, 'tho)

2. He really doesn't want to be with you if you have a backbone, a mind of your own, and the ability to use them both to do things that are important to you regardless of how upset he gets. (Like having a r/s with your children, etc.)

And if that's so, it is time to end this. Here's a tip on ending things with him... .

First, don't confuse his threats with likelihood of action on his part to actually end things.

Second, don't expect him to have a fair/balanced reaction when you say something about it. I'm sure he's talked about ending things a thousand times. If you agree with him one time, or suggest it yourself one time, it will provoke a POWERFUL reaction from him. Especially the first time you say something.

In other words, don't tell him you are thinking of leaving/ending things. Don't tell him that you need him to do "X" or not do "Y" or you will break up... .nothing good will come of this!

Instead, if you need him to behave differently, tell him this, without speaking the threat of leaving.

And if/when you are ready to leave, it is an action, not a threat, and do it in a way you are sure you will be safe.

[allienoah]

Yes that is bad to have this happen in public. I was mortified.
So my best strategy is to stay LC/NC until I have cooled off sufficiently.
Honestly I think it was his rage speaking and still present today, but I really don't have the time or patience to deal with his nonsense after that display.
I also completely agree that he doesn't want me to have a backbone WITH HIM. He is always telling me not to let anyone walk on me. In his mind, my sister does, my kids do etc. So having said that, if I am not to actually say to him that I am done, would I pose it as "I am not going to tolerate your berating me anymore"? I am not going to tolerate your dictating to me when/if/where I see my kids, sister, Santa Claus?"
Yes I am still very angry.



And if that's so, it is time to end this. Here's a tip on ending things with him... .

First, don't confuse his threats with likelihood of action on his part to actually end things.

Second, don't expect him to have a fair/balanced reaction when you say something about it. I'm sure he's talked about ending things a thousand times. If you agree with him one time, or suggest it yourself one time, it will provoke a POWERFUL reaction from him. Especially the first time you say something.

In other words, don't tell him you are thinking of leaving/ending things. Don't tell him that you need him to do "X" or not do "Y" or you will break up... .nothing good will come of this!

Instead, if you need him to behave differently, tell him this, without speaking the threat of leaving.

And if/when you are ready to leave, it is an action, not a threat, and do it in a way you are sure you will be safe.
[/quote]

So I guess my question is, how do I go about this?

[Grey Kitty]

So having said that, if I am not to actually say to him that I am done, would I pose it as "I am not going to tolerate your berating me anymore"?

I would suggest you handle this in the moment as it comes up. When he next starts, say "I will not be spoken to this way" or "I won't listen to you berating me like this." [If you use the first one, it is harder for him to reply that this isn't berating you... .]

And be ready to enforce whatever boundaries you need to get away from it. Leave, hang up, etc.

"I am not going to tolerate your dictating to me when/if/where I see my kids, sister, Santa Claus?"

Again, handle it when it comes up... .When he tries to do this, tell him that you are going to do (whatever he's trying to stop at the time), and it isn't a topic for discussion or debate. (and be ready to enforce the end of the discussion here too.)

You could bring it up as a general discussion, but I don't see much point, as you don't need his actual cooperation to remove yourself when he behaves these ways.

And if/when you are ready to leave, it is an action, not a threat, and do it in a way you are sure you will be safe.

So I guess my question is, how do I go about this?

Start by deciding you want to--or at least planning it as an exercise to see how you feel about it.

Work on this plan in a way that is safe--how about starting here.

First--what are you afraid of / what could he do to you? What might you need to secure?

Are you afraid he will become physically violent with you? Has he ever done that or threatened that specifically?

Do you have belongings at his home that you value?
Does he have access to your stuff besides the house key?
Does he know your passwords for online accounts?

[allienoah]

To be perfectly honest, the only thing I am afraid of is my reaction to breaking up. I am not physically threatened by him, he has not financial bonds with me, no shared passwords, accounts-nothing like that. He has basics at my house and I have removed all of mine from his.
He attempted to get me to engage again this morning and I did say "I won't be spoken to this way". He says I bring it out in him, and that's my cop-out to not continue the discussion. I know this is bull so I got off of the phone.

[Grey Kitty]

To be perfectly honest, the only thing I am afraid of is my reaction to breaking up.

Yeah, breaking up sucks, no matter whether you are the dump-er or dump-ee.

How have you coped with prior breakups?

If there have been breaks in this r/s before, how have you handled them?

[allienoah]

There have been many breakups in this r/s. I am actually getting used to them in some ways. Then the unbearable sadness just breaks in or I get anxiety attacks, that's my co-dependency kicking in. This right now is a situation where my gut tells me enough, and my head tells me enough, and my heart won't agree. I spent the weekend with him, no major issues. Yet he wanted me to make a very difficult choice again in relation to time spent with my sister, and I caved in an did not enforce my boundary. I am so ashamed and upset with myself. No matter what his issues are, I feel like I need more help. I know this is not right, yet I feel so beaten down.