I could use a little guidance dealing with a master manipulator

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm so glad that it is becoming more evident to you when his behavior is unhealthy and when he is crossing boundaries.  I know this can all be exhausting, so Dr. Beagle is prescribing a self care splurge of your choice today. 

Out of curiosity (and nosiness) are you planning to continue CT, or does his walk out constitute the end of the "couple" that would need therapy?  My advice (you didn't even have to ask for it ) is that you continue individual counseling, but not take part in any further CT (even if he expects it).

[BeagleGirl]

I'm so glad that it is becoming more evident to you when his behavior is unhealthy and when he is crossing boundaries.  I know this can all be exhausting, so Dr. Beagle is prescribing a self care splurge of your choice today. 

Out of curiosity (and nosiness) are you planning to continue CT, or does his walk out constitute the end of the "couple" that would need therapy?  My advice (you didn't even have to ask for it ) is that you continue individual counseling, but not take part in any further CT (even if he expects it).

[Grey Kitty]

  You didn't ask for a second opinion, so this is unsolicited too I think the Rx from Dr. Beagle is spot-on regarding both self care and individual therapy!

I did CT which started out as an attempt to save the marriage... .which shifted into efforts to help us cleanly end the marriage. If your T makes that shift, it might still be worth going.

He loves me but he needs someone who will make him a priority, stand by him no matter how he behaves, and puts HIS feelings first and foremost.

He's right. Believe him. He needs somebody who will subsume all their own needs and feelings for his. You aren't that person.

That's the kind of incompatibility that relationships are ended over. And ending them is sad, but is the right thing to do. Just like a r/s should end if one partner has to have children and the other partner is unwilling to have/raise children... .because they aren't compatible.

Note: In this case, what he 'needs' is totally unhealthy, unrealistic, and impossible... .but what matters for this r/s is that you cannot and will not do it for him.

Most important, be gentle with yourself. Doing the right thing doesn't make it any easier on you.

[allienoah]

I am going to take the advice of both of you! Just made an appointment to get a mani/pedi in preparation for this wedding.
I love the honesty and guidance, so no advice is unsolicited!  That is what I am here for!
My rational side knows that what he needs is completely unrealistic. My focus now should be on trying to determine why I always felt I needed to get him to see reason(he is unable to-he is ill) and why I allowed myself to tolerate the behavior for so long.
I will def continue T on my own. The CT left it open for us to go back next week. My ex(?) said there is no tomorrow for us as he walked out. Of course he was in full throttle madness at the time. But I agree that I need to care for ME right now. Let him figure himself out-or not. The CT is going to reach out by the w/e to see what we want to do, but I agree that I need to bow out and focus on myself now, and try to stay strong.

[Grey Kitty]

My rational side knows that what he needs is completely unrealistic.

It is still *possible* that what he needs exists. What isn't possible is for you to be it. Perhaps you will find it easier to convince your heart of this slightly reduced version... .

My focus now should be on trying to determine why I always felt I needed to get him to see reason(he is unable to-he is ill) and why I allowed myself to tolerate the behavior for so long.

Yes, that will be critical for you to work on. Especially before you are ready to risk putting yourself into another relationship... .or recycling this one.

For today, keeping those strings from yanking you back in with him is job #1, whether you get to the root cause now or later.

  And you are ON IT.

[BeagleGirl]

Allienoah,
I'm right there with trying to figure out why I continued with my end of an unhealthy/abusive marriage for so long.  Maybe we can bounce some ideas off each other.

My T (who started out as our CT and then started seeing us individually) uses the word picture of a feeding tube.  She reminds me that BPDh (who is also diagnosed DPD) basically attached a feeding tube to me 27 years ago.  I clamped off the feeding tube close to a year ago when I started setting boundaries (I unclamped it fairly regularly).  I started the process of detaching it 4 months ago when I moved out.  Now he has 3 options. 

Option 1:  The best case scenario is that he learns to feed himself and eventually gets rid of the feeding tube.  This is the only option that allows us a chance of entering back into a healthy relationship.  Right now I am dealing with the fear that he will choose this option and I will not be able to find it in myself to forgive and trust again.

Option 2:  The current status is that he is chasing me with the feeding tube, desperately trying to reconnect it to me.  He's also attaching it to those around him that are willing to feed him emotionally.  He can live the rest of his life like this and it's my choice whether I allow him to attach the tube to me again.  Ultimately, he may find another woman who is willing to allow him to attach the feeding tube to her.  In all honesty, I would be okay with that.  I know it would have all kinds of new drama (how would I deal with my boys having a step mom?), but if it happened tomorrow I would wish BPDh and new "bag of emotional food" well and move on.

Option 3:  The most frightening and saddest option is that he would decide to die.  T has been consistent in bringing up this option for me to deal with.  The veiled threat of this is one of the components that keeps a lot of people in unhealthy relationships.  They take on responsibility for keeping another person alive.  When keeping another person alive means being abused and constantly drained of emotional, spiritual, and physical resources, the "savior" dies their own kind of death.  So T has been working with me to see that I am not meant to carry the responsibility of keeping BPDh alive, and I won't be responsible for his decision to end his life should he choose Option 3.

I read what your bf said as "I need a bag of emotional food that is endless and will remain attached no matter how I treat it".  GK is right that it is *possible* that he may find a woman who is willing to do that or, more likely, a series of women who are willing to be temporary bags of emotional food until they have been drained and discarded.  Maybe it will help you detach/remain detached if you look at it that way.

So why do/did we allow ourselves to be used that way?  How do we keep it from happening in the future? Let me know if/when you are ready to dialog on those topics.  For now, know that that prescription comes with unlimited refills. 
BG

[allienoah]

Beaglegirl I can definitely relate to the analogy of the "feeding bag"! And my bag is empty when it comes to him right now.
Your Option 1 is spot on with what would need to happen for me-however, like you, I am afraid of him reaching out to me as I know I don't trust that the abuse will stop.
I think in some weird way, I don't think I am good enough for a great relationship, so when the bar kept being raised and raised for me, it just emphasized that I wasn't enough. Little did I see at the time that I AM worthy of a healthy relationship. I need to believe that. And I went above and beyond in the "understanding, forgiving and tolerating" departments. It actually feels a little freeing right now-I hope it lasts.
He isn't going to change and Greykitty you are right- we are not compatible. I think I've known this but couldn't or wouldn't face it. I love him very much for all of his good qualities. I  just can't keep having him ask me to do things that hurt my r/s with other people.
And Beaglegirl, I would welcome the opportunity to share on the topics of why do we allow it and how do we prevent it in the future!

[BeagleGirl]

I think we share a lot of the same thought processes.  I still struggle with the "I'm not enough" feeling.  Oddly, it was the worst decision in my life that woke me up.  As you may have read, I had an affair.  It didn't last long and I ended it.  The last thing my affair partner said to me was "I really hope you can find someone who can love you the way you deserve to be loved.  It probably can't be me, but I really want you to be loved."  I think he recognized the abuse I was enduring for what it was, long before I did. 

Some of the reasons I think I have accepted the abuse:
It's all I've known - I met BPDh when I was 14.  He was my one and only relationship until my affair 24 years later.

I don't know the difference between someone approving of me and loving me - This was the big breakthrough from my T session 2 weeks ago.  I was describing how I knew my dad loved me because I would overhear him brag on me when I was a child.  Somehow earning his approval (by doing things, working harder, etc) became equated to earning his love.  So if someone doesn't love me, then I must not be doing enough.  So the answer to BPDh not being happy and being unloving is to work harder on the relationship.

Pride/Stubbornness - I think that I know how to fix this and if I just stick with it long enough... .

Family/Community Expectations - A Christian wife loves and submits.  No matter what.

I'd rather be with someone who abuses me than be alone - Both the family/community expectations and my doubts that I am "enough" contribute to me feeling like this is my one shot at marriage (divorce being prohibited and probability of finding a man who would love me being doubtful).  Being separated for the past 4 months has helped me see that being alone is really not that bad, but there are times like today when I just really want a hug and not being in a relationship makes that hard to come by.

I'm sure there are a million other reasons, and many more insightful ones that I've recognized but am not remembering at the moment. 

How about you?  What are some of the reasons you think you have accepted the unhealthiness in your relationship(s)?

[formflier]

Family/Community Expectations - A Christian wife loves and submits.  No matter what.
 

FF hits the GONG!

Is this really the family and community expectation?

Is this really what you think and believe?

Your faith and belief is strong... .it also should be very clear, especially about matters such as marriage which are central to your faith.

 

FF

[formflier]

FF also realizes he is now a hijacker... .sorry!   

FF

[patientandclear]

This discussion is so helpful for me, for what it's worth. Thanks to all 4-5 of you.

A while back I wrote something similar to what you said, Allie, about how my ex wBPD needed someone who would stay no matter what he did. Notwendy wrote a really helpful comment back then, saying that is not what he needs, but what he wants.  What he needs is someone with clear boundaries who does not allow or participate in using or abusive behavior. I have held onto that ever since--for me it makes it somewhat easier to bear first the risk and then the reality of loss (our r/s ended nearly a year ago) to understand that what it would have taken to keep the thing going was not good for him, either.

[allienoah]

I don't know the difference between someone approving of me and loving me - This was the big breakthrough from my T session 2 weeks ago.  I was describing how I knew my dad loved me because I would overhear him brag on me when I was a child.  Somehow earning his approval (by doing things, working harder, etc) became equated to earning his love.  So if someone doesn't love me, then I must not be doing enough.  So the answer to BPDh not being happy and being unloving is to work harder on the relationship.


I think this applies to me with both my parents. It hurts to overhear them saying good things to others about you yet never to you yourself. And I did equate approval with love. I guess that is what I did w my bf. So when he didn't approve of my actions, I felt I needed to go beyond to receive the love. and on and on it went.

Let me also say that this dialogue literally saved me from making a big mistake. I am feeling very sad and lonely today. I spent too much time this AM second-guessing myself about the whole wedding thing. should I have called my cousin for verification? Should I have said I am a grown woman who can have a bf but not be engaged and be permitted to bring him? The time for all that has passed. Did I really disrespect the r/s by agreeing to go without him? Was I being a coward?

All of this and more was going through my mind, torturing me.
THEN I went back and read this thread in its ENTIRETY.

And it hit me that although I am in an abyss over this wedding, before that there was the baseball game and before that there was my friend staying over/vacation, and before that ... .before that... .and on and on.
I realize that no matter what happens, whether I handled something poorly or correctly, while I am always open for improvement, there is NO REASON for him to verbally abuse me over any slight-real or imagined.
He has BPD.
I just need to stay strong and keep on here and going with the great guidance that you all have so generously provided.

[Lalathegreat]

     

As you probably know, my relationship ended a few weeks ago after pwBPD physically threatened me. If ever there should have been a circumstance that made me feel completely at peace with the end being the end, THAT should have been it. But honestly, I have struggled mightily with the same kinds of thoughts you describe. Did I really do enough? Should I have tried harder? At what point could I have prevented this outcome?

It is absolutely crazy making to KNOW logically that pwBPD is mentally ill and that ultimately nothing would have prevented the r/s from ending (because I never could have been ok with what would have been necessary to change that outcome), while my heart still longs for the person I thought he was when I fell in love with him. It's that gosh darned "cognitive dissonance".

All I can do is send you an enormous hug and my support. It makes it somewhat less horrible to not be alone. Perhaps I can reassure you that you aren't. I am right here with you, dealing with many of the same things and taking it one day, one hour, one moment at a time.

Lala

[Grey Kitty]

I realize that no matter what happens, whether I handled something poorly or correctly, while I am always open for improvement, there is NO REASON for him to verbally abuse me over any slight-real or imagined.
He has BPD.
I just need to stay strong and keep on here and going with the great guidance that you all have so generously provided.

This brings me back to my question a few days ago: "What does breaking up mean to you?"

It sounds like for you, this break up means you know you need to be DONE with this relationship. Your logical mind sees this. Your heart is still catching up. It is still drawn to him, or drawn to what you wished he could do, or those 'perfect' moments at the beginning when you were on a pedestal (which he may never put you back upon... .and even if he does, he's certain to knock you off it and STOMP on you again).

Up 'till now, I've been mostly advising you on actions to improve your r/s with him, how to use boundaries to protect yourself, leaving him room to behave better, etc.

If you are DONE, it is time to change gears--take actions to make sure the r/s stays done, and for you to heal.

If you are ready, the new tool I'd recommend is No Contact. Protect yourself from hearing from him--You don't need another dose of bile, that will only hurt you. You also don't need to hear him begging, pleading, apologizing--that will only confuse you, and keep your heart from catching up to your logical brain and accepting that this is over.

Block his phone. Block his email. Block him on social media. Consider a single message telling him you are done and don't want to hear from him any more.

You need it now to protect your heart. In a few weeks or months, that need will pass. At that time you can figure out if he is safe for more contact or not. But for now, keep him away.

[allienoah]

Lala! thank you so much. I was wondering where you have been. I send you strength and hugs    ... .  cognitive dissonance is such an enemy of our moving forward. I find that I try to push out good thoughts with the image of the last time he raged at me. It wasn't pretty. and it helps

Grey Kitty- Break up for me does mean me being DONE--my logical mind is so on point with this. I know r/s will not improve as he is still telling me I created all of his insecurity. I get frustrated with myself that my heart keeps going backwards. It NEEDs to catch up!
I am looking forward to this weekend away to regain my equilibrium with this. No contact is the next step. You are right. Just a simple line ending all contact and moving forward to heal. I know I will heal. I know I can repair the damage this r/s has done to my other interpersonal r/s's.
You have given me great guidance to improve things, and there does come a time, as Lala experienced, that enough really has to be enough. I'm still learning and growing-thank goodness I found this forum!

[Grey Kitty]

Just a simple line ending all contact and moving forward to heal.

I'm smiling gently at how you said that. Downplaying it as if it is a tiny, easy, thing that anybody can do without any problems, hesitation, or heartbreak. (I've been there with steps like this myself too--I know how it feels!)

Anyhow, it really *IS* simple, at least.

It also is another big step that is really hard to take... .no matter how "simple" or "easy" it is / is supposed to be.

So... .did you take the step? If so, how did it go? If not, please be gentle with yourself and accept that you aren't quite ready yet, but you will get there on your own schedule.