Trying to end my marriage peacfuly, and amiacably

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello,

I apologize for the tone of my opening message. I am hear after getting 46% of the way through Walking On Egg shells. I suspect I am not the first to have the book recommended to me by a divorce lawyer. I'm probably not the first to have a parent and sibling who was diagnosed with disorder was well. Growing up in this type of an environment it's pretty easy to see how I didn't realize I was in another.

In many other ways my situation is possibly unique. I have a child, since my very early 20s with the BP. I also had to move out of the country for work. That was the water shed moment for my life. What was supposed to be a temporary job gave me the space and peace to begin to understand what type of situation I had been living.  Before my lawyer heard me speak for 2 hours about my wife, I had already identified most of the puzzle pieces. The abuse, the gas lighting, the lack of openness. In almost 20 years the only store my wife had ever shared with me that communicated any emotion was that as a child she had very unloving parents who constantly threw their children into financial and situation uncertainty.  

This is an opening statement, so I won't say everything.

I am at the point where I am trying to end my marriage peacfuly, and amiacably. I don't think this will be possible. She blames me for abandoning her (which I understand the emotion) as I set bondaries about abuse which she laughingly and angrily pushed through for years. But why did I post now? I just came to the realization that she is a lier. It feels strange to say, because for so many years she extoled her honesty so strongly, and forcefully that - even after 2 years of seperation- it makes me unconfortable to say, but one of the tactics she has used is lying. She will say one thing, and then willfully deny she said anything of the sort, even with confronted with evidence (writing, recording). I've been understandingt that she has been lying fanancially as well, to great harm to me and my son. I think these bother us both (son and I) because unlike so many others, the lies are undeniable facts with numbers attached.

"But please look here, you said X and this is Y? Do you see what we mean?"

The more illogical - fact denying- a statement, the more it triggers and hurts to hear when you realize it's about power, not trying to develop mutual understanding in a good faith discussion.

Sorry, been up for a while. I am here, because after everything, I've recently stopped viewing all the fact changing statments independently, and realized my SO BP has been lying, and it really bothers me. I'm trying to get a divorce, but she is working very hard to ensure that I don't have legal standing. I'm scared of the damage she is causing to me and my son, and about our future. And, now that I understand that I suppose the next step is to stop running scenarios through me head and say "Hi".


(Sorry, I thought I knew what I would write when I started. I was wrong, and it's a mess. A bit like how I see my present situation)

[alogicaldummy]

Hello,

I apologize for the tone of my opening message. I am hear after getting 46% of the way through Walking On Egg shells. I suspect I am not the first to have the book recommended to me by a divorce lawyer. I'm probably not the first to have a parent and sibling who was diagnosed with disorder was well. Growing up in this type of an environment it's pretty easy to see how I didn't realize I was in another.

In many other ways my situation is possibly unique. I have a child, since my very early 20s with the BP. I also had to move out of the country for work. That was the water shed moment for my life. What was supposed to be a temporary job gave me the space and peace to begin to understand what type of situation I had been living.  Before my lawyer heard me speak for 2 hours about my wife, I had already identified most of the puzzle pieces. The abuse, the gas lighting, the lack of openness. In almost 20 years the only store my wife had ever shared with me that communicated any emotion was that as a child she had very unloving parents who constantly threw their children into financial and situation uncertainty.  

This is an opening statement, so I won't say everything.

I am at the point where I am trying to end my marriage peacfuly, and amiacably. I don't think this will be possible. She blames me for abandoning her (which I understand the emotion) as I set bondaries about abuse which she laughingly and angrily pushed through for years. But why did I post now? I just came to the realization that she is a lier. It feels strange to say, because for so many years she extoled her honesty so strongly, and forcefully that - even after 2 years of seperation- it makes me unconfortable to say, but one of the tactics she has used is lying. She will say one thing, and then willfully deny she said anything of the sort, even with confronted with evidence (writing, recording). I've been understandingt that she has been lying fanancially as well, to great harm to me and my son. I think these bother us both (son and I) because unlike so many others, the lies are undeniable facts with numbers attached.

"But please look here, you said X and this is Y? Do you see what we mean?"

The more illogical - fact denying- a statement, the more it triggers and hurts to hear when you realize it's about power, not trying to develop mutual understanding in a good faith discussion.

Sorry, been up for a while. I am here, because after everything, I've recently stopped viewing all the fact changing statments independently, and realized my SO BP has been lying, and it really bothers me. I'm trying to get a divorce, but she is working very hard to ensure that I don't have legal standing. I'm scared of the damage she is causing to me and my son, and about our future. And, now that I understand that I suppose the next step is to stop running scenarios through me head and say "Hi".


(Sorry, I thought I knew what I would write when I started. I was wrong, and it's a mess. A bit like how I see my present situation)

[takingandsending]

Hi ald, and Welcome to bpdfamily. 

You don't need to apologize for where you are. We all mostly show up in a less than grounded head space when we arrive here. 

So, it sounds as if you have been married for a long while to your spouse w/BPD, and you have a son together. And understandably, you are upset about what you now can see has been a pervasive pattern of lying. I certainly felt a lot of betrayal (self and spouse) when I looked back at my marriage in the context of all the BPD behaviors, so I can understand how the rug feels like its being pulled out from under you.

When you mention she is trying to ensure you don't have legal standing, can you elaborate? Legal standing with respect to custody of your son, ownership of home and property, ... .? Have you sought out help from a L yet? If not, I'd recommend that you discreetly begin interviewing some attorneys, specifically looking for those that have experience in high conflict cases, including a decent amount of court trials. If you can, you may want to read Bill Eddy's book "Splitting" to gain a better understanding of what you might encounter and also how to develop a strategy moving forward.

Lastly, regarding the lying, for pwBPD, feelings=facts, so what you perceive as lies are not going to be experienced as lies by her. It's sort of like, she believes the lies she states because they feel right to her. It is maddening, but it helps remove some of the personal element to it, which can make it a little less painful for you and maybe your son. In my case, my xw extolled her great communication skills and sensitivity as a healer. All of my life with her, these were her greatest virtues and unshakable beliefs. The reality is that communication on anything other than a superficial level with her is near impossible, and she is incredibly insensitive and abusive - the opposite of healing. So, yes, I can see how she has created one very big lie, but I think that doesn't really describe the complexity of what actually happens very well. She can communicate and be sensitive to the point that she is not threatened by a situation. But she has little self control the moment that her thoughts become threatening. At that point, she is powerless to do anything other than employ all of the BPD tactics to project her discomfort outward on to anyone and anything that she can. And to maintain that projection, she has to commit to it, fully, completely, which leads to feelings=facts.

Even as you decide to embark on a process of ending things, you may want to read the communication tools on this board and on the staying/improving board, as they can help you work toward less stress in your interactions. I encourage you to keep posting here. Others will come along with more thoughts and suggestions.

[david]

Communication from my ex is rarely straightforward. It took me a while to get that and now I accept it as it is. It's mostly emotionally based and explaining, reasoning, etc will not work. I simply state facts and say what I am going to do. I do not reply to things that are all over the place although I will repeat myself exactly sometimes. I only communicate through email so it is all documented and there is no ambiguity in case I go to court.
My interpretation of an angry or attacking email is that something is bothering ex and I am a safe place to vent. We have two kids together so I can't go complete no contact. Sometimes, a few days to a week or two, I find out something when the boys are talking to me that explains what the email was about. I don't say anything to either boy but just listen to what they have to say.
I used to get accused of all kinds of things and tried defending myself. Eventually I realized that was not working and I needed to figure another way.
An example, I received a call from the school nurse several years ago. Our oldest (16) vomited and was feeling ill. The nurse called ex several times and left a message. It was her custodial time. I picked him up and took him home. He went to bed immediately. He had a virus since he was cold and running a fever.
I emailed ex to let her know what happened, our sons' symptoms, and what I did and would do the next day if he still felt ill. She replied demanding I drive him to her place. I repeated my message which was to describe his symptoms, that he was in bed, and if he felt the same tomorrow I would take him to the doctor. I replied exactly as the first time leaving out the facts of the nurse calling. A few hours later I received a call from the police. I explained what happened and he asked me to reach out to ex. I sent another email explaining I received a call and repeated what I said before. The wording was slightly different but said exactly the same thing. She threatened to take me to court. I did not reply.
The fact that our son was ill did not matter to ex. Whatever emotion was guiding her was all that mattered. She did not take me to court. I am certain the judge would have agreed with what I did.

[SamwizeGamgee]

alogicaldummy - your post title is important.  It sounds like you have reached a decision to divorce and are looking for the right way.  I don't know if it is possible, and certainly it's not easy, but I do wish you the best.  Fear of divorce is natural, and going to happen for several reasons.  You'll find your own questions, fears, and answers as you work with them.

On the topic of peace and amiability, I have come to the conclusion that I actually crave peace.  Whereas,  I believe my wife finds peace intolerable.  I believe that this is due to her childhood with verbally abusive parents and a childhood that was full of various fears.  It seems she just can't abide calm waters, so to speak.  If I am quiet, my wife assumes that I am brewing in anger and quiet hostility. I think she expects this same environment as her childhood.  Her dad will spend long periods of time in solitude.  Eventually in my marriage, I figured out that when I breathe even, she takes that as me being angry.  As a runner, I have very low respiration and heart rates, and when I breathe it is often deeply and long - this triggers her into thinking that I'm really angry inside and am holding it in, or about to blow up.  Nothing could be farther from the truth, when I breath I'm actually just trying to stay alive, and wouldn't mind doing so in peace.  In some ways, having someone assume I'm mad, and interpret everything I do, don't do, say, or don't say as angry is in itself enough to make me angry - perhaps a version of BPD crazymaking behavior.  Once I figured it out, I detached my investment in her concept of me being angry so it doesn't affect me like it used to.  Anyway, I mention this because we just can't control or cause a peaceful divorce, any more than you could have controlled or caused a peaceful marriage.  Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best. 

I will note from reading your post though that it sounds as though you are approaching your wife with "proof" of her inconsistencies / lies.  I wonder if that is necessary.  I can attest to the fact that most conflict arises at home when someone has to be right, has to win, or has to be vindicated.  When I read Patricia Evans' "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" I found some great wisdom that helped me frame my reality, and separate it from one of conflict. I recommend the book.  You don't need to be right.  Moreso, you can't convince your wife she's wrong. Nor do you need to do so. 

Another point to make is that if you are still uncertain that you will pursue a divorce, it's best to make as many preparations as possible in secret from your wife.  You can always roll back many of your actions preparing for divorce if she doesn't know about them, but, you can't un-say divorce to her.

[david]

Also, I tried negotiation, talking, counseling, etc., not in that order. Nothing worked. If I had to do it all over I would have talked to all the best lawyers in the area and picked one. This way my ex would not be allowed to use any that I talked to as that is a conflict of interest. I would have figured out the rules of the game in my county and used them to achieve the goals I was seeking. I wouldn't be looking to "win" but just protect myself and our kids in the way I thought best. I would not, and have not, been vindictive towards my ex. My ex did most of that to herself all on her own.

[livednlearned]

it sounds as though you are approaching your wife with "proof" of her inconsistencies / lies.  I wonder if that is necessary.  I can attest to the fact that most conflict arises at home when someone has to be right, has to win, or has to be vindicated.  When I read Patricia Evans' "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" I found some great wisdom that helped me frame my reality, and separate it from one of conflict. I recommend the book.  You don't need to be right.  Moreso, you can't convince your wife she's wrong. Nor do you need to do so.  

Nicely put.

[lpheal]

I wouldn't be looking to "win" but just protect myself and our kids in the way I thought best. I would not, and have not, been vindictive towards my ex.

I am very close to a decision point in my marriage as well. I was stuck for a number of months this spring and summer on the process of it, because I wanted to figure out how this could happen peacefully. I've finally accepted that is not possible. I think the quote above describes the best you can do. After meeting with the attorney I just retained this week, she proposed a strategy that would do exactly that. I just want to be able to look at myself and know I did it in the best way possible for my D3.

A counselor I met with said "just blow the whole thing up" and keep moving forward. The pieces will fall where they will, and if you keep your eyes on the future for you and your D3 you will be fine. I also try to remember that if I start overthinking it.

[alogicaldummy]

Hi ald, and Welcome to bpdfamily. 
When you mention she is trying to ensure you don't have legal standing, can you elaborate?

Thanks for your opening remarks. It would have assumed most people would appear not sure what to do. Your verification helps.

To answer your specific question: I am currently overseas on a temporary contract. I have been for 2 years. The state I live in, Ohio, requires the person filing for divorce to pass certain residency tests. Having a car, name on lease of the apartment, etc. Some time in the last 8 months when my wife realized it was really over, she began removing items from that checklist.

She recently admitted that selling the jointly owned car was done specifically because the local tax office said it was strong evidence of my residency.

As to your other suggestions, regarding deciding to end things, and my evaluation of the situation, again thank you. I am thinking about that. It's just that one question is very easy to respond to.

[alogicaldummy]

Communication from my ex is rarely straightforward. It took me a while to get that and now I accept it as it is. It's mostly emotionally based and explaining, reasoning, etc will not work. I simply state facts and say what I am going to do. I do not reply to things that are all over the place although I will repeat myself exactly sometimes. I only communicate through email so it is all documented and there is no ambiguity in case I go to court.

This is great advice. I had started using emails because I suspected the need to present the evolution of things to a court. My son took it upon himself to start audio recordings when ever he spoke with her. I think it was just for his sanity.

My interpretation of an angry or attacking email is that something is bothering ex and I am a safe place to vent. We have two kids together so I can't go complete no contact. Sometimes, a few days to a week or two, I find out something when the boys are talking to me that explains what the email was about. I don't say anything to either boy but just listen to what they have to say.
I used to get accused of all kinds of things and tried defending myself. Eventually I realized that was not working and I needed to figure another way.

I think it's a little easier to take things too, thinking  that it's a way for people to vent. It's not nice, but like you said, it saves you from trying to defend yourself, which I have found made things worse. Or maybe I should say, defending yourself causes an escalation in the level of the episode. And it's not about you anyway.

An example, I received a call from the school nurse several years ago. Our oldest (16) vomited and was feeling ill. The nurse called ex several times and left a message. It was her custodial time. I picked him up and took him home. He went to bed immediately. He had a virus since he was cold and running a fever.
I emailed ex to let her know what happened, our sons' symptoms, and what I did and would do the next day if he still felt ill. She replied demanding I drive him to her place. I repeated my message which was to describe his symptoms, that he was in bed, and if he felt the same tomorrow I would take him to the doctor. I replied exactly as the first time leaving out the facts of the nurse calling. A few hours later I received a call from the police. I explained what happened and he asked me to reach out to ex. I sent another email explaining I received a call and repeated what I said before. The wording was slightly different but said exactly the same thing. She threatened to take me to court. I did not reply.
The fact that our son was ill did not matter to ex. Whatever emotion was guiding her was all that mattered. She did not take me to court. I am certain the judge would have agreed with what I did.

This is a very scary recollection, by that I mean anxiety educing. I've had some similar things happen since we've split. For example, me and my son decided to go to the recent eclipse. We had informed her of this. Divorce proceedings have not started, we are both custodial, but I told her about it, and so did he. After we left she claimed I never did and threatened (again) to call the police and say that I kidnapped him and we that we are in the process of a divorce (it's different in Ohio).

We haven't even started, and I can't say I would do anything different in your exact situation. But it must have been a bit worrisome waiting to find out if you would get the chance to test the assertion that a judge would agree (I am sure they would)

[alogicaldummy]

I was stuck for a number of months this spring and summer on the process of it, because I wanted to figure out how this could happen peacefully. I've finally accepted that is not possible. I think the quote above describes the best you can do. After meeting with the attorney I just retained this week, she proposed a strategy that would do exactly that. I just want to be able to look at myself and know I did it in the best way possible for my D3.

A counselor I met with said "just blow the whole thing up" and keep moving forward. The pieces will fall where they will, and if you keep your eyes on the future for you and your D3 you will be fine. I also try to remember that if I start overthinking it.

WOW. This describes basically all of 2016 for me. I finally realized I couldn't make things move forward, and began the process this summer. Thank you for this comment. I feel like I understand what you were going through, and I understand it was probably frustrating, and stressful. I hope you ultimately have made the efforts that will let you go through with what ever decision you make with the confidence you will not regret your efforts to do it peacefully.

[ForeverDad]

We're somewhat anonymous around here but if you had to guess my state, you would very likely be correct.   I'm not sure how much to add to what the others wrote but a few things popped up.

Yes, you are correct that if there are no court orders stating otherwise, you and your spouse have equal but unspecified rights as parents.  That means that whenever you have possession (or care) of the minor children then your decisions are respected by the police.  If your spouse tried to say you kidnapped the minor children she would need more than just her feelings and perspectives to get an Amber Alert on you.  When I had a temp order in the divorce process I gave her a vacation notice.  She said No, she didn't approve.  Well, it was a notice and not a request.  Looking back, I must admit the temp order didn't specifically mention vacations, possibly because temp orders are supposed to be temporary, not nearly two years as mine turned out to be.  But the order did reference the online Guidelines which did contain the rules for vacations, time windows for exchanges, etc.  Anyway, I was smart enough to start the vacation on my weekend and the sheriff's deputy she complained to was smart not to blame her or argue with her and redirected to the guidelines, saying "it didn't meet the criteria of Amber Alert".  She still demanded an investigation but my vacation continued without consequences to me.

However, there are some potential risks.  Our son was 4 years old when the first temp orders (prior to divorce action) were dismissed.  She promptly blocked my access and kept him with her 100% of the time.  I contacted the police and they refused to help me see our son.  Their position was (1) I needed to have a court order in hand before they would act and (2) if I went to her door and she called them then they would rush to protect her.  Since I didn't want to risk getting arrested, I waited.  Took 3 months of blocked parental contact before we got a temp order (I filed for divorce).

You didn't mention the ages of your children but it sounds like one may be in his teen or pre-teen years?  The courts ought to see an older child as having more ability to make some decisions or choices than a preschooler like mine was.

If she sold or retitled the jointly owned car without your consent (signature) then she would have broken the law, I believe.

We often refer to the SPLITTING book by William Eddy & Randi Kreger as our most important handbook for high conflict cases.  It stresses the need for us to have problem solving and proactive lawyers, experienced and capable in court and trials.  My lawyer was like that but he also was inclined to follow the court's typical processes.  For example, the custody evaluator wrote in his initial report that "Mother should immediately lose her temporary custody."  Never happened, I can only presume that my lawyer didn't push hard about that with the judge since court just moved on to the next step in the divorce.  It got me frustrated but eventually it all worked out.