Daughter-in-law may have BPD, worried about grandchildren

[Turtle Lady]

My daughter-in law may have BPD.  There are several children involved.  Yougest 8 mo., 3, 6, 8, & 12.  Of course, my son is involved too'  the three oldest kids are hers from a previous relationship.  My son is very attached to all the kids.  What are the dangers for the kids and the legal ramifications of custody?

[HappyChappy]

Hi Turtle Lady,

Welcome to the forum. If you elaborate on the symptoms that you find hard to deal with, that would help others on this forum empathise and offer up advice. Tell us about some events where the BPD behaviour was hard to deal with, or how that behaviour is effecting the children. Many on this board are children of BPD parents, and the behaviour does fit well know patters, so I’m sure you’ll get plenty of advice. But Turtle lady, there’s no rush.

HC

[Turtle Lady]

My son is in therapy to help him through this.  He has a strong sense of self and, fortunately, realizes he needs help with this issue.  His therapist has seen his wife in joint counseling until wife stopped going.  While describing the situation to the therapist, the therapist suggested BPD as a  possibility.  He has been reading Stop Walking on Eggshell to help him as well.  He is also probably on here someplace.  I live on the opposite side of the country from them, but want to support what must be a difficult time in his life.  His two biological children are 8 months and 3 years old.  He cares very much for her three children from a previous relationship, children ages 6, 8, and 12.  He has related some details of moody behavior, her hair pulling episodes with him, and extreme behavior.  I am so thankful that he is seeking help with this for his own self esteem and wellness.  He is a good man.

Thanks for listening

Turtle Lady

[HappyChappy]

Hey Turtle Lady,

If your son is seeing a Therapist who understands BPD, then he should be in good hands. So that’s all good. I know this forum is sometimes recommended by therapists. But a Therapist can not diagnose BPD, even though they may be good at spotting it.

As a child of a BPD/NPD combo I loved it when we went to our grandparents, because it use to temper their behaviour. People with a PD do care about what the audience sees, but not about what they can hide. So here again it will be good for the kids that your son is hanging on in there.

The hardest part I found coming to terms with is, someone with BPD (or NPD) never breaks cover and can not change. It is very rare they will admit to any negative label, they can not accept blame and hence will duck out of Therapy at the soonest convenience. But you do hear of exceptions to this rule (my two weren't exceptional). But there are techniques you can use to get the best out of someone with BPD. Such as S.E.T. meaning when you deal with them use Sympathy, Empathy and Truth. Which is tricky, because you are also trying to walk on egg shells, with the truth. 

Try and avoid circular arguments (bringing the same thing up over an over) or any arguments. They are masterful at that sort of stuff, so they will trying and draw you in knowing they will win. They will got to extreme lengths to win. So chose your battles careful. There’s also a technique known as B.I.F.F. Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm. That’s a good way of avoiding being drawn into arguments, whilst asserting yourself. I’ve been told I can be very assertive, for a mild mannered man, so I guess I learnt BIFF  by nature of being brought up by a BPD.

I would also encourage your son to come onto the forum, as it can help each time there’s a flare up. To ground him, validate him and reassure him. A BPD tries to isolate their flock, and control all communication. So don’t give your BPD any opportunity to block you out or isolate your son.  BIFF them. I hope that helps and do feel free to post as often as you need.

[Turtle Lady]

Any suggestions on how I can help find an attorney with BP experience?  I live across the country from my relative.  Looking for an attorney to advise in the Thurston Co. area of WA.  Someone suggested trying the county mental illness agency.  Anyone have any guidance?

[Panda39]

Any suggestions on how I can help find an attorney with BP experience?  I live across the country from my relative.  Looking for an attorney to advise in the Thurston Co. area of WA.  Someone suggested trying the county mental illness agency.  Anyone have any guidance?

It is suggested that you interview several attorneys, let them know that you have a potentially "High Conflict" divorce (we don't suggest labeling people BPD... .just point out the behaviors instead) and do they have experience with that, tell your story and find out what their strategy would be. You could also ask those attorney's if they had a "high conflict" case who would they hire.  Your son's therapist could also be a good person to ask for a suggestion but even then you would still want to do a consultation.

There is an excellent book you/your son might want to check out... .
Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy

One other thing have your son start documenting her behaviors, particularly related to the kids.  Divorce court doesn't always care about how parents treat each other but definitely do care about how the kids are being impacted.  So if she is raging in front of the kids, is verbally abusive to the kids or your son in front of the kids, neglectful, makes suicide threats,etc.  Have him document those incidents.   Have him keep the information hidden.  He might also want to start making copies of important documents that he might need later... .mortgage, kids social security cards, banking information, car info, retirement info etc.

Can you give us any information on situations that he is having the most trouble with regarding his wife?  We might be able to give you some strategies to pass on that could help.

Is the father of the 3 older kids in the picture at all?  If so what is your son's relationship with him like? Was she married to him and divorced because her first divorce could be a pretty good indicator of how she will behave now.

I hope I've given you some things that are helpful.

Take Care,
Panda39

[Turtle Lady]

Thanks for all your suggestions. 

Son has told us about verbal abuse and hair pulling by her to him.  I have not heard of physical abuse with any of the kids.  I believe there may be periods during the day when she is not able to parent, but have not heard of any specific abuses toward children.

Older kids' father checks in occasionally, but not frequently.  He has a decent relationship with my son.  I don't believe he was ever married to the children's mother.

Son is planning to seek legal advice from his therapist as well as a trusted daycare official who may have experience with this.

Thanks again.

[Panda39]

Thanks for all your suggestions. 

Son has told us about verbal abuse and hair pulling by her to him.  I have not heard of physical abuse with any of the kids.  I believe there may be periods during the day when she is not able to parent, but have not heard of any specific abuses toward children.

Older kids' father checks in occasionally, but not frequently.  He has a decent relationship with my son.  I don't believe he was ever married to the children's mother.

Son is planning to seek legal advice from his therapist as well as a trusted daycare official who may have experience with this.

Thanks again.

Your son should document that hair pulling incident (anything else that gets physical) and the verbal abuse.  Has he ever had to call the police on her?  If so get a copy of the police report.

Also know that abuse isn't always blatant, it can be subtle.  For example my Significant Other's (SO's) undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) kept their younger daughter home from school for a week because she had a stomach ache on a Monday.  There was a pattern of absenteeism from school when the girls were with their mother.  There is enmeshment which can look benign on the surface but is inappropriate. So learn as much as you can about BPD so you can spot these kinds of things.  I'm glad to hear your son may be on these boards too... .Two heads are better than one! and you will both be speaking the same language.  My SO and I are both members too, it helped us be on the same page when it comes to his ex.

I was asking about the older kids’ father because if their mom blocks your son seeing them maybe he can arrange something with their dad once the dust settles.

I also wanted to point out the box to the right -> each item is a link to more information.  You might want to check out the Lessons section and the "insights" & "Tools" tabs at the top of page.

Panda39

[Turtle Lady]

Thanks, again for all your help and advice.  I have used this site and Central to compile a package of facts and advise for my son, who doesn't have a lot of time personally.  Works all day, gets home to chores around the house with kids, usually prepares dinner and after cleanup, spend time with kids, get them ready for bed, start over.  So I offered to do some research reporting my findings including advice from you all, WA state rules and regs for divorce and custody requirements, county numbers to call for help.  He should receive the package next week at an address where he has privacy.  Then, he can read over and mull what he needs to do.  This has to be his decision, I know.  I want to be supportive, to provide food for thought.  Thanks for being here.

[Panda39]

Wishing you both well. 

We're always here if either of you need more support. 

Panda39

[Turtle Lady]

Thanks, Panda.  I'll keep in touch.