Common Sense Check

[Tired_Dad]

I have been back and forth to the if / when I should pull the trigger on divorce proceedings. I live in a state that is notorious for siding with mothers to the detriment of fathers and it has me very nervous with how things could shake out if I file.

In the past she has made statements to her therapist that led to DCF interviewing our family about suspected abuse from me to our son and thankfully (for me that is) at the end of it they were focused on her and her issues and not on me. I am nervous because in the past she has made threats and arguments to claim abuse to gain custody and to take away from me what she feels that she deserves. This is much more troubling as in most of our arguments I make a conscious effort to remain outside of an arm's distance from her yet she consistently claims that I am in her face screaming at her. However, I stay out of arms reach as she has on multiple occasions felt that striking me is perfectly acceptable and that the bruises that she received from my blocking her strikes were my fault and that I should be ashamed of harming her.

I want to end things as amicably as possible as I do love and care about her and want to set an example for my son and I want an opinion from others a proposal to let her leave with a financially secure as possible and to minimize disruptions to my son.

I propose to let her walk away with none of our joint debt and to continue the payments of all debt that I have been paying as the sole income to the family to include a substantial student loan debt. To allow her to keep her vehicle free and clear and continue pay the loan, waive any claims to the vehicle and keep it on our insurance until the divorce is final. That I keep the home and the majority of investments as the balance of them is slightly more than the debt that I am proposing to take on and if the debt is lesser to give her the balance as cash and if it is greater to just let her leave. I will be seeking primary legal custody (51% or greater) as I need to have legal recourse to her impulsivity, but do not want to deprive my son of his mother (she will do that on her own in time) and I will not be seeking any money from her for child support and I am going to fight any form of spousal support in the form of direct cash payments to her, though I am open to some form of direct bill pay for a set period of time.

I do not know how legal or realistic any of this is and I think that I just needed to get this out of my head and talk about it in a place where it won't get back to her yet. Thank you to all who read this wall of text.

[ForeverDad]

I want to end things as amicably as possible as I do love and care about her and want to set an example for my son and I want an opinion from others a proposal to let her leave with a financially secure as possible and to minimize disruptions to my son.

Many of our new members arrive here with that hope.  However, depending on the level of the dysfunction, discord and conflict, that hope may not be possible.  Court will view her as an adult, perhaps a flawed adult but still an adult.  Court will not necessarily think better of you if you volunteer to appease her or assume all the debts, etc.  One practical perspective is this... .The one behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the one behaving well seldom gets credit.  Ponder that.  Being nice or overextending yourself financially won't get you awards or reciprocity from your spouse and probably not the court either.

The joint debt ought to be offset by the marital assets.  If she has debts or student debt then that is her responsibility.  She's an adult, she can get a job or career.  Otherwise, once the marriage is ended, she is properly responsible for her own life.  That said, maybe you can make deals that resolve some of those issues as you had wished but seldom is that early in the divorce process, usually it is closer to the end and just before a major court hearing or trial.  Likely she is just too oppositional and entitled now at this early stage.

This may be a little blunt but often the fathers are saddled with child support, spousal support during the divorce and short term alimony for a couple years afterward (in expectation it will help her to transition to post-marriage life and to find a career or job).  Court is too often ready and willing to give the kids to the mother and tell the fathers to pay for it.

My story, a brief part of it, is that when we separated my spouse had a charge pending in municipal court of Thrat of DV.  I had temporary possession of the home for several months.  As soon as she was out she rushed to family court to get her own protection order and tried (but failed) to get our preschooler included.  Well, the magistrate had one question only, What are your job schedules?  I said I had a regular 5 day schedule.  She said she worked from home, actually maybe $200 per month and now she had no home by court order.  Well the court order was she had temp custody and I had alternate weekends.

Do you see the point?  I had every basis, so I believed, to feel in charge based on her pending court case and I was virtually shut out, based only on my not having majority time with my child.  I wanted to be generous, even appeasing, but it didn't mean anything to the court.

So before you make any offers bounce them against peer support here, get experienced legal representation.  Just any lawyer is not enough if there is any risk she will oppose you being an involved in-charge father.  A forms filer or a hand holder is not for you.  You need an experienced attorney who is proactive, has practical strategies, is very familiar with protracted high conflict cases and can handle a trial if it goes that far.

Her keeping her vehicle makes sense but are you that financially comfortable that you should okay paying for its loan and so much else?  Perhaps if it is a plush car it should be sold and a less expensive vehicle purchased in its place?

The reality is that she is likely to oppose you having 51% of parenting and custody.  It sounds like you're prepared to quickly make a multitude of concessions which will not ensure you end up with majority parenting anyway.  Generally the financial aspects are finalized nearer the end of the divorce process.  What is addressed first is the temp custody and parenting.  There should be your sense of priority.  And being a Nice Guy doesn't figure much into that.  Focus on being a solid dad, a problem solver without appeasing and a parent who is squeaky clean when allegations are lobbed against him.

[nuthereggsheller]

A female perspective... .you sound like a very respectable guy who wants to do the right thing by everyone. To someone in her right mind, your noble approach could help keep an ongoing parental relationship amicable. But remember, she's not in her right mind, and my guess is that little you've done in the past has been fully acknowledged or appreciated by her.  Get legal counsel and find out what your state laws are. Go by the laws so the law has your back.  If you find that she is struggling financially and you want to help her out, you can always do that privately later on a gift basis (and I would be cautious about that too) but I wouldn't lock it into your divorce decree.  You'll only be enabling her more, and wiping yourself out which will only leave you resentful and struggling with moving forward in the next phase of your life. Healthy boundaries, Tired Dad.

[livednlearned]

Hi Tired_Dad,

I tried a version of what you are proposing.

Two things.

One is that the financial part cannot be conflated with the custodial part. It doesn't sound like you are proposing that, per se. But just in case you are hoping that a generous financial deal will make for a more generous custodial time, it doesn't typically work that way with people who have BPD, and it's not considered legally ethical (so said my L).

Two. It tends to work best when you aim high so you have room to negotiate your way down to what you are ok with. She is likely going to be enraged and entitled no matter what you propose, so anticipate that she will start chipping away at anything you suggest.

We tend to negotiate with ourselves before the process has even begun. At the very least, ask for what the courts think is fair. Then have a bottom line. Depending on what your wife is like, present something to her that you know she will reject, and go back and forth until she agrees to what (in your mind) is the original offer. Keep in mind, too, that these divorces tend to cost us more because of BPD behaviors. I gave my ex the house and in retrospect, I should have hung onto it if only because I could've used the equity to pay for what it took to give him the house in the first place. Giving him the house cost me money. I still can't believe it. 4 trips to court and a judge who kept giving him second, third, fourth bites of the apple.

And about the DV concerns. Are you in a state where you can record without her consent?

Documenting false allegations, and documenting patterns of behavior, help win our cases.

[40days_in_desert]

Tired_Dad, First I would like to say that I understand some of what you are going through. Being over two years apart from my ustbxBPD, I can see the difference in what I was willing to give up financially in the beginning versus what I'm willing to give up now. I think what you are offering is fine if that's your "bottom line". If you offer that up front, she may very well think of that as a starting point. If my ex had not been so unreasonable in the beginning, she would have ended up with much more than she will now. Now I'm being more reasonable to include what's best for me and our children and not just what's best for her. Another point to consider is that even if you aren't thinking about another relationship at this point, think about the financial situation that you'll be in 2, 5 or even 10 years down the road and what you will be able to contribute to a future relationship. I'm not suggesting that you try and be unfair to your wife but don't sell yourself short either. You can be fair without continuing to be her caretaker. As mentioned by ForeverDad, she's an adult and she needs to be able to take care of herself. By making things too easy, you may be delaying her ability to learn how she'll be able to take care of herself in the future. Having said all of this, I think your proposal is fair and sound if she were to agree right away but most likely won't. If you give yourself negotiating room, you may look favorable in the eyes of the court system as being willing to compromise where she may not. 
As far as your son, I commend you for seeking final legal but not trying to take him from his mother. Children need a relationship with both parents unless it is unhealthy for them to be alone with one or both unsupervised. If your son isn't unsafe to be with her alone, I would try to have a custody agreement that allows as much time for him with both of you with as few exchanges between the two homes as is feasible. All of this is my opinion from personal experience, people I know in similar situations, research and this site. I would make sure that you have legal counsel to guide you before making any decisions. I wish you strength and wisdom for the road ahead!

[ForeverDad]

40days makes a good point, you may feel your offer is fair and final.  She is likely to perceive it as both not "fair" enough and just a starting point.  And she is likely to propose changes and then when you think the modified offer is final, she will make additional demands.  Ad infinium.  Why?  PwBPD typically push boundaries and keep pushing even after the boundaries stop retreating.  So itis wise to determine what your boundaries are in advance and hold firm to them, unless it turns out your boundaries really do need to change.

As for any offers, they need to have withdrawal dates.  Perhaps at first you don't have to declare the end date, but at some point you need to say, for example, "You have one/two/whatever weeks to accept or it is withdrawn.  If we end up in court then I'll probably let the judge decide, but I won't offer this again because court and lawyers are so expensive that my resources will have been reduced."

[Tired_Dad]

Thank you all for your input. It is much appreciated as I try to keep myself grounded through this process. I have been on the fence with going forward with a divorce, and though I am not currently 100% certain that it is the correct decision, am have enough confidence that I am contacting a local lawyer with a good reputation for maintaining the rights of the father.

to livednlearned - I am in MA and if I record voice it will be inadmissible from what I understand. That being said I do plan to record as I would rather be fined for improper recording voice than jailed for DV. I am looking to install a video only monitoring system to my house as we have had a break-in in the past and I am getting primarily for that reason.

Things have progressed since my last post and my spouse has admitted to using cocaine and to not taking her medications. The hard drug use is new, but the pattern of stopping her medication is not and though I have not been consistent with holding my own boundary of not accepting that I am not going to keep moving forward on the roller coaster of her emotions if she is not doing at least the minimum (meds/therapy) to treat herself. With the addition of this new harmful revelation and its' potential impact I have to move forward as I have a career and child to think about.

[ForeverDad]

If you bring up the issue of drug use understand that you both may end up getting tested, so make sure you can justify a legal use for any drug results.  Be as clean as possible that way.

If I record voice it will be inadmissible from what I understand. That being said I do plan to record as I would rather be fined for improper recording voice than jailed for DV.

There is a possibility that recorded DV may be admissible in court.  A lawyer in your area could give legal advice on that.  But there are agencies surrounding court that may view or listen to recordings before they take action against you.  However, once your spouse knows you're recording she will modify her abuse methods.  For example, if she knows everywhere is being recorded except bathrooms and bedrooms, she will likely only rage in those areas.

I too recorded for self-protection, a form of insurance so I could document I wasn't the one behaving poorly.

[Tired_Dad]

27 Years in the Army subjected to random drug testing... .I have this one covered.

I don't use so I am not worried for me, and why it is all the more aggravating to me that I have to worry about any of this.

As a holder of a security clearance it could be revoked over the actions of my spouse, or through unfounded accusations.

As an update last night I came home to her crying and found out that in the medical workup that she had yesterday that they found a mass in her lung. She now needs to see an oncologist. I will be putting my actions on hold until those results come back, I feel that if it turns out to be serious that it can wait a month to come up with a clearer plan.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm commenting on your opening post: I get it too.  I have been fence-sitting for a long time because I see reasons to divorce, and not to divorce.  It's tough and not a spot you want to be.

As far as negotiations: I observe that my uBPDw has a trait I first noticed in my kids as toddlers.  You try negotiating as an adult and you present a fair offer.  They hear "I'll give you

• ... ."  however, they don't hear "... .if you [y]."  So, your great offer will probably sound to her as what you offer is hers, and she'll negotiate to get half of what's left as her share of yours.  Does that make sense?  Adding to that a legal culture that has historically given the kids, and the house, and half the retirement, and an alimony stipend to mom, and dad gets the bills -- and it's going to make her mighty entitled.

Get some legal guidance, and aim to end up somewhere in between fair and generous, but closer to fair since you'll need all you can get going forward.

As a clearance holder too, I am a little nervous about what effect a rage-induced accusation can lead to, but, I bank on the hope that they know that your clearance equals your income, which equals the money they draw from too, that wives won't throw around false accusations. 

I audio recorded on my person too (still will periodically if things are edgy at home).  It's not for court, but, it helps me be on my best behavior, and it's the [five hours of calm and silence] before the cops show up at night that can keep you out of jail.