Groundhog Day - My feelings versus her pathology

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hey all,

So my 'friendship' with my former lover has remained on cordial terms for some weeks now since she no longer mentions feeling suicidal. I am very glad of this.

In fact she has started to become a little interested again, something I have not encouraged. I have been trying to let go of the r/s and concentrate on my marriage but maintain a friendship with my ex.

So the current issue is around texting. I have been trying to keep a distance from her and texting less. So we had a conversation today where she asked me why I have not been texting. I mentioned that I texted her on Friday and I assume if I don't hear from her then she is busy.

Anyway, this then led on to a wider conversation about the history of our r/s in which I (probably inadvisedly) outlined exactly how I see things - notably that she has historically texted intermittently. It led to this exchange.

Her: I don't know if you have noticed but the more space you give me, that's when I come back.
Me: That is a paradox. What you are saying is that if I keep away from you then you feel better disposed towards me. I find that an odd position.
Her: Just because I act differently to you, doesn't mean I care any less.
Me: But would you agree that seeing each other twice a year is not really a fulfilling relationship?
Her: You always undervalue my feelings and what I can do.
Me; I have accepted that the r/s cannot be what I would have liked it to be. I have acceptance around the way things are. I am always concerned for your mental health and to be a support.
Her: Thank you.
Me: But I have to say that the reason I walked away is because I was unhappy with never seeing you. I came back into your life because i care about you. However, the love r/s was very frustrating for me at times. I think you have always been content to see me once in a while. I was never happy. That was the source of the conflict.

Silence

Now I know I shouldn't have become embroiled in the detail again. She has only recently got her mental health back on an even keel. But I don't want there to be amnesia around what has actually occured. Alot more was said prior to the posted exchange, particularly around the way I felt she treated me during her drinking, which was met by the response; 'you do me a huge disservice.'

I don't want her to think she can see me twice a year when it suits her and that constitutes a r/s. I saw signs of her pushing to meet me again. It is very hard because I still feel the pull but I also feel she wants to dip in and out of the r/s when it suits her. I always felt this way. The difference is I am able to say it now without finger pointing or becoming toxic towards her.

Not sure if I should even discuss the r/s with somebody whose mental health could deteriorate at any moment. On the other hand, she has to know that things have moved on.

She hasn't spoken to me since midday. I am now starting to worry about her mental health again. I tried to stop the Groundhog Day - but is there a version of this where I can actually tell her how I feel without it leading to some kind of crisis?

[RomanticFool]

Hey all,

So my 'friendship' with my former lover has remained on cordial terms for some weeks now since she no longer mentions feeling suicidal. I am very glad of this.

In fact she has started to become a little interested again, something I have not encouraged. I have been trying to let go of the r/s and concentrate on my marriage but maintain a friendship with my ex.

So the current issue is around texting. I have been trying to keep a distance from her and texting less. So we had a conversation today where she asked me why I have not been texting. I mentioned that I texted her on Friday and I assume if I don't hear from her then she is busy.

Anyway, this then led on to a wider conversation about the history of our r/s in which I (probably inadvisedly) outlined exactly how I see things - notably that she has historically texted intermittently. It led to this exchange.

Her: I don't know if you have noticed but the more space you give me, that's when I come back.
Me: That is a paradox. What you are saying is that if I keep away from you then you feel better disposed towards me. I find that an odd position.
Her: Just because I act differently to you, doesn't mean I care any less.
Me: But would you agree that seeing each other twice a year is not really a fulfilling relationship?
Her: You always undervalue my feelings and what I can do.
Me; I have accepted that the r/s cannot be what I would have liked it to be. I have acceptance around the way things are. I am always concerned for your mental health and to be a support.
Her: Thank you.
Me: But I have to say that the reason I walked away is because I was unhappy with never seeing you. I came back into your life because i care about you. However, the love r/s was very frustrating for me at times. I think you have always been content to see me once in a while. I was never happy. That was the source of the conflict.

Silence

Now I know I shouldn't have become embroiled in the detail again. She has only recently got her mental health back on an even keel. But I don't want there to be amnesia around what has actually occured. Alot more was said prior to the posted exchange, particularly around the way I felt she treated me during her drinking, which was met by the response; 'you do me a huge disservice.'

I don't want her to think she can see me twice a year when it suits her and that constitutes a r/s. I saw signs of her pushing to meet me again. It is very hard because I still feel the pull but I also feel she wants to dip in and out of the r/s when it suits her. I always felt this way. The difference is I am able to say it now without finger pointing or becoming toxic towards her.

Not sure if I should even discuss the r/s with somebody whose mental health could deteriorate at any moment. On the other hand, she has to know that things have moved on.

She hasn't spoken to me since midday. I am now starting to worry about her mental health again. I tried to stop the Groundhog Day - but is there a version of this where I can actually tell her how I feel without it leading to some kind of crisis?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

Her: I don't know if you have noticed but the more space you give me, that's when I come back.
Me (removing every inch of possible space): That is a paradox. What you are saying is that if I keep away from you then you feel better disposed towards me. I find that an odd position.
Her (defensive): Just because I act differently to you, doesn't mean I care any less.
Me (removing more space): But... .(same old story that has yielding conflict for years)
Her: Runs back into safe hole.

RomanticFool, the correct answer was "I learning to understand you better". She would have then continued with another pleasantry. That's how post relationship friends speak with each other.

She wanted to know why you don't call more - just apologize and say you have been really busy... .just like you would say to any friend.

I have been trying to let go of the r/s and concentrate on my marriage but maintain a friendship with my ex.

If the romance is over (and you agree that it needs to be), and you are concentrating on your marriage, respect your wife and yourself here - and respect you affair partner. Friendship means put all those past feelings in a box and either share them here or with with a therapist - but that stuff is out of bounds in a post relationship friendship.

Make sense?

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

If the romance is over, and you are concentrating on your marriage, respect your wife and yourself here - and respect you affair partner. Friendship means put all those past feelings in a box and either share them here or with with a therapist - but that stuff is out of bounds in a post relationship friendship.

I am trying to extricate myself from her. That is not what she wants evidently. We have focused an awful lot on how to treat her when she is suffering. However, she is feeling better now and I have to be honest with her. She asked me why I haven't been texting her. I told her the truth. That led to her saying she is feeling better disposed towards me and I told her why things have changed. I don't know how else to let her go. I tried that a few months back and look what happened.

RomanticFool, the correct answer was "I learning to understand you better". She would have then continued with another pleasantry.

I think the correct answer is: 'You have led me a dog's life and have sucked all the love out of me and turned it toxic. Now you want to come back for round 57. Well leave me alone because I need to concentrate on my r/s with my wife.'

Obviously I am not going to say that to her but she is clearly feeling better. What you read is my version of trying to let her go. She asked me the other day what my availability is to meet up in October. I find it very difficult to negotiate this stuff as you know. There is a tremendous pull there. I am trying to do the right thing here and I feel she needs to know where things stand. Unfortunately, that may mean discussing the r/s.

[isilme]

Just a few cents here about disengaging:

H and I have had to sadly deal with emotional cheating in the past.  It took me a long time to get him to understand how it hurt me that he would extend his emotional needs and energy outside of us, engaging in all-but-actual-dating type relationships years and years ago.  There were times things went beyond emotional, which pushed me quite far along the edge of a breakdown.  So I apologize but need to share some input about maintaining a relationship of any kind with a person who is essentially poison to the marriage, as well as your emotional health.

You don't want to have a door left open, out of your marriage.  You don't even want a window, if your purpose is to focus on that respect for your wife, as Skip stated.  It sounds more like you want good closure and validation of your feelings about the relationship with the ex.  I think you want to feel heard like she understands and accepts that its over and why, in order to amicably move on.

Sadly, I don't think this is a helpful thing regarding the marriage and commitment to it.  Are you seeking a romantic relationship with your ex?  no.  Are you seeking a close (potentially dangerous to your marriage) friendship with your ex?  I hope not.  Are you trying to talk to this person with about the same emotional investment as a co-worker, the acquaintance this person needs to become, or as a former lover, competition for your wife? 

Skip's advice (as I saw it) was to forgo any deep conversations with this person from whom you are claiming to be extricating yourself from.  Keep it simple, bland, non-emotional, like you would talking to a coworker.  Medium chill.  You have done what you can to help this person and you can't allow them to keep one foot in the door by holding you emotional hostage with self-harm threats. 

Availability?  None.  "Sorry, with my wife that weekend."  "Sorry, busy."  "Sorry, have a colonoscopy coming up."  Whatever.  It's like in the movie Strange Days when Lenny is following Faith around - he knows she's seeing someone else, he knows it's over, but can't let go.  Faith has to tell him movies are better than the "playback" memories Lenny sells and is quasi addicted to - "You know one of the ways movies are still better than playback? The music comes up, there's credits, and you always know when it's over.  It's OVER."

You're not going to make your ex happy about things not being what she wants.  You are not going to be able to focus totally on your marriage if you are worried about your ex, feeling responsible for her wellbeing, feeling you need to keep in contact, feeling her desire to see you NOW matters. 

Just my two cents, I know the pull is hard to detach from.  I had to go NC with my BPD mother after decades of being her caretaker, physically and emotionally.  It's not easy at all, but NC or very LC is your healthiest bet as far as I can tell. 

[RomanticFool]

Isilme,

It 's a very difficult line to tread because I don't know what kind of r/s we could have going forward. In some ways we have had a friendship as the conversations are usually about fairly mundane things.

If we are being honest, it's me.that is struggling with the situation. To her  the most important part is keeping in contact. It should, in theory, be easy for us to conduct a platonic r/s in which we never meet... The issue arises that my hurt feelings are still there in the background. I need to work through those without involving her.

I agree that any r/s could be detrimental to my marriage, though if we become friends and don't meet then there is a calmness all round. The problem is that she won't let me go completely. I tried walking away and it led despair and a suicide attempt. I would like to avoid all that drama.

I am trying to distance.myself from the love affair and maintain a friendship. It is easy to say I am busy as she never really pushes anything. She just.wants me in her life in some capacity... I tried to.walk away but she goes to armageddon...

Everybody here knows what I am dealing with. It us unrealistic to think I can go from.helping her back from.suicide attempts to having.no connection... I think at the moment it is better to.give her the illusion of a close friendship without getting into 'We can never see each other again.' As I have been advised on here, the intensity and.drama needs.to remain on zero. There is no door open anymore... Just ongoing concern for a woman I care about... End of.

[isilme]

As a person who's been in your wife's shoes, I just have to say to me it sounds like you are used to the role of the rescuer (most of us on here are) and can't let go of feeling responsible for her.  She is holding onto you as a "just in case" because anything else is her feeling abandoned.  The threats of self harm are a method (whether they are true or not is immaterial) to keep one finger on you.  It's a form of control. 

One way to end drama is to not react to it.  Notify someone else if she threatens to hurt herself.  Call the authorities.  It's not your job to keep her happy, emotionally stable, or content. 

[waverider]

pwBPD are all or nothing, any middle ground positions are just transient manoeuvring stages. What she says is not what she is feeling. Simpy engaging drags this out. Meanwhile you risk your future on something that is likely to go nowhere.

It is likely she simply does not want to "loose you" to someone else so she keeps you engaged by prompting your rescuer traits. By rescuing/being supportive it feeds your own validating needs.

Every victim needs a rescuer, and every rescuer needs a victim. The persecutor role is awaiting the first one to cut off supply, as it is seen as betrayal.

[Skip]

... .if we become friends and don't meet then there is a calmness all round. The problem is that she won't let me go completely. I tried walking away and it led despair and a suicide attempt. I would like to avoid all that drama.

It makes sense not to trip your own abandonment anxiety.

It us unrealistic to think I can go from.helping her back from.suicide attempts to having.no connection.

I don't want to hurt your feelings, so please take this in the way it is intended... .you didn't help her back. She sought care and didn't tell you. When she did tell you, she said your relationship with her was a contributing factor. Helping her back was to stop pushing her and pressuring her? Helping her back WAS to stop pushing her and pressuring her.

She just.wants me in her life in some capacity... .

She also wants to avoid tripping her abandonment anxiety.

The most important thing for your future will be to shift your emotional availability toward your wife. I don't think you are there. It feels to me like you might pursue a replacement for the affair before turning back to your wife, full on.

There is still work to do.

[RomanticFool]

I concur with everything everybody has said.

I am as confounded by her as I have always been in some ways. However, the crucial thing at the moment is that there is a certain amount of detachment from her. I no longer feel the same level of anxiety/compulsion around her. This can change but the longer I stay away from her, the easier it becomes.

It makes sense not to trip your own abandonment anxiety.

Exactly. My own issues are as complex and confounding as hers are. Every time I made big gestures about cutting her off, I suffered terribly and then she would always come back into my life anyway. It's all a waste of energy, stressful and intensely painful. I never thought I'd say this but I find it less stressful being in touch with her than trying to keep away from her. However, the r/s is now a platonic one.

I don't want to hurt your feelings, so please take this in the way it is intended... .you didn't help her back. She sought care and didn't tell you. When she did tell you, she said your relationship with her was a contributing factor. Helping her back was to stop pushing her and pressuring her? Helping her back WAS to stop pushing her and pressuring her.

I helped her in the way that any human being helps another. I was there when she needed to talk. I don't believe that I caused her suicide attempt and I don't believe I single handedly brought her back from despair. Her medication did that. However, she does not talk about suicide when things are calm and tranquil between us. The not pushing is a life lesson that has been extremely valuable to me. I do think my behaviour was driving her nuts. That will be partly due to her suspected BPD, her inability to cope with emotional upset and her depression. If I have learnt nothing else from this situation, not driving her nuts has been a great lesson.

It is likely she simply does not want to "loose you" to someone else so she keeps you engaged by prompting your rescuer traits. By rescuing/being supportive it feeds your own validating needs.

It could be that she is simply manipulating me and always has been. I will never know for sure. It really no longer matters to me. I think she sees me as a friend she can lean on. I cannot speak for her emotional engagement with me, she has shown herself capable of dipping in and out of the r/s over the years but she always wants me in her life for whatever reason. I can only speak for my own issues regarding being in contact and I am no longer emotionally volatile as a result of this r/s. Yes, that can change, but I have found an easier, softer way.

She also wants to avoid tripping her abandonment anxiety.

The most important thing for your future will be to shift your emotional availability toward your wife. I don't think you are there. It feels to me like you might pursue a replacement for the affair before turning back to your wife, full on.

There is still work to do

I think we avoid tripping each other's abandonment anxiety. We both have the same issue.  

My wife came home tonight and we cuddled on the sofa. I felt very close and connected to her.

The situation with the ex is less than ideal but it no longer obsesses me and it no longer affects the way I feel about my wife. I haven't seen the ex since early this year. There are no plans to see her again. I think she is content with a close friendship and I am content to keep the drama at zero. I don't say this is healthy or unhealthy, I do say it is better than where I was emotionally and also where the affair partner has been regarding my behaviour.

There is absolutely no chance whatsoever of me having another affair. I do not want to invite emotional hell back into my life.

pwBPD are all or nothing, any middle ground positions are just transient manoeuvring stages. What she says is not what she is feeling. Simply engaging drags this out. Meanwhile you risk your future on something that is likely to go nowhere.

I asked myself the following questions today: What if she really does just want to be friends? What if there has been no BPD lying or subterfuge from her and she has always cared about you but your behaviour has pushed her into her hiding place? What if she is a lying conniving and self serving BPD who doesn't care one iota about you but is only looking to assuage her own abandonment issues?

The answer I came up with to both of those questions is that what is going on for her makes no difference. The important thing for me is to try to get to a healthy place. I don;t really feel responsible for her happiness but it does give me some sense of self worth to feel that we are on good terms and that I am a good friend to her. The sexual r/s is over. I do not want to go back there. I agree that it went nowhere and I am out the other side of it. What i can do now, is what is right for us both ie be a friend rather than a seething mass of unrestrained emotion... .and be there for my wife. I feel that both of these things are happening.

Every victim needs a rescuer, and every rescuer needs a victim. The persecutor role is awaiting the first one to cut off supply, as it is seen as betrayal.

I am definitely a rescuer and we have both accused each other of betrayal for cutting off the supply. I think the most benign course of action at present is to remain friends. However, I do bear in mind what you said about the middle ground simply being a manoeuvering stage.

I don't know whether she would be clinically diagnosed as BPD - she told me once that her doctor's told her that she doesn't have BPD. However, the behaviours which I have described since I've been on here  do seem to be typical of BPD behaviour. Therefore, the eternal question that rumbles on in my mind is whether she is capable of having a friendship (I know she is NOT capable of having a love r/s with me). Can the way we feel towards each other truly be described as care or is everything she does motivated by keeping her abandonment fears at bay? I guess the same question could be asked of myself (though Skip has told me he dosn't think I have BPD). I don't know the answers and may never but I know the pain is much less these days.

[waverider]

For many pwBPD the level of friendship/relationship is often closely tied to the level of perceived need being met or pursued. In other words it can very fair weathered. Often simply someone who is willing to still engaged in interactions is fulfilling a need.

[RomanticFool]

For many pwBPD the level of friendship/relationship is often closely tied to the level of perceived need being met or pursued. In other words it can very fair weathered. Often simply someone who is willing to still engaged in interactions is fulfilling a need.

You know what? I find this to be no different from most human beings. As long as I don't want romantic love from my pwBPD, I don't see much difference in the r/s to most of my friendships.

[RomanticFool]

Ironic that we were talking about how I haven't helped her regarding her suicide issues because we had the following conversation this morning.

Her: Morning - how are you?
Me: Very tired. You?
Her Not in a good place tbh
Me: What's up?
Her: Suicidal thoughts really getting to me now. Trying so hard to shake them off but they're getting worse.
Me: Sorry you aee feeling that way. I am here to talk any time. Do you have doctors you can talk to?
Her: They tell you to ring the suicide prevention charity, but due to the telephone system I'll get put through to the nearest geographical branch and the people on duty might recognise my voice.
Me: Do you know what has triggered the latest onset?
Her: Just feeling bad about myself and the usual crap I guess
Me: Does it change daily?
Her: Not at the moment - follows on from the previous day and it's all I can do not to act on it
Me: Why do you want to kill yourself?
Her: I don't particularly want to kill myself - I just don't want to feel such hopelessness anymore
Me: I understand that the feeling is unbearable. What historically have you done (apart from drinking) that alleviates it?
Her: Try and make it go by any means possible:
Me: The feelings will go at some point. I think you have to examine why you feel empty and hopeless
Her: Ty for being there for me - it helps me stay alive. Night.
Me: Night

Now that our friendship has no drama attached to it, the same issues are surfacing for her. I am happy I can be a friend to her without all the emotional stuff coming into play. She clearly sees me as somebody she can talk to.

I am aware of everything everybody has said on here. That she is most likely seeking help and not telling me. That I am not responsible for her feeling better (or worse). She has no reason to try to keep me onside by manipulation. She has no reason to suppose I am pulling away. I have made no big gestures one way or the other. Things are calm between us.  So I assume that her feelings are nothing to do with me at all. I am somebody she feels she can talk to when she feels desperate. I am only saying this out loud in case anybody thinks there is something else at play here.

It seems to me that there should be regular follow up care for her. It is likely that given the current state of the NHS in the UK that she is not being monitored well enough. But I still find it odd given her history that she cannot pick up the phone to somebody.

I don't know what else to say or do other than what I have been doing.

[RomanticFool]

Just to clarify the above conversation. She went the whole day without saying anything else other than thanking me for my help in the evening. Hopefully that means she got help elsewhere.

[isilme]

Quick question - just for some clarity, I did not have a chance to go back and read previous posts. 
1) Does your wife know about the affair? 
2)And does she know you are still talking to your ex-lover?

If yes to either, what does she think/feel about it?
And if no to the second especially if yes to the first, why? 

I'm sorry, I still feel this is too much energy put outside the marriage to fulfill rescuer feelings.  And I never see how your wife feels about this mentioned - just a LOT of concern for the other woman who supposedly caused emotional hell. 

When I made it clear to H his behavior was unacceptable and that his decision to place so much concern OUTSIDE our relationship that it drained his reserves for what to put in, and that anything less than no longer talking to "the other woman" would suffice, it took a few weeks, but he stopped.  I was on the crazy side and checked phone records without telling him, but I was able to track that he was being honest.  And devoting himself to me, not just when we felt "connected" but even when we were upset with each other, facing difficult times, and NOW I think it is finally clear to him how destructive his "just being close friends" was.  He has female friends.  But I now no longer feel that icky feeling about them that I used to.  He's not texting them secretly.  He's not trying to "save" them (usually the women he'd engage in emtotioanl cheating and moderate physical had some dama he inserted himself into to "fix", ignoring me and our real-world problems all the while because he could not face them, instead opting to be a "white knight" for someone else, where failure would not hurt his real life so badly). 

She has no reason to try to keep me onside by manipulation.

Sure she does - you "belong to her".  ONce you've seen that part of a pwBPD, the part that sends most people running, they've internalized you as an appendage.  You might as well be her foot.

She has no reason to suppose I am pulling away. I have made no big gestures one way or the other.

This sounds again like you are having your cake and eating it too - "I have my "friendship" on the side and my wife at home.  I can say I am totally devoting myself to my wife, but still have my foot propping the door open because I have made no big gestures stating I am no longer in this r/s, I am not coming back as a romantic partner, etc."

Things are calm between us.  So I assume that her feelings are nothing to do with me at all. I am somebody she feels she can talk to when she feels desperate. I am only saying this out loud in case anybody thinks there is something else at play here.

Of course, her feelings are about you - else, why would she message you?  And why would you want to be someone's lifeline when they are desperate?  Because you want to be a white knight. 

She is holding on to you.  She is reminding you that she has suicidal tendencies, to make sure you make no grand gestures that you are pulling away.  Until you do so, it's just a dance between you saying you are devoted to your wife, but having this other woman hold a percentage of stock on you.  And, if your wife is not aware of the affair, you have no consequences for staying in a holding pattern.  If she's aware of the affair, but not that you are still in contact, same.  Only if she is aware, and also knows you are still getting messages and/or calls, requests to meet here and there, only then are you open and letting your wife have the full priority. 

[pearlsw]

Thanks for all the insights and input people are offering here. It is very insightful. To the original poster, I encourage you to keep working your way to a better place for you and your wife. I know it is not easy to move past this affair stuff and "cold turkey" was not an option for you. Your healing matters. I really hope you get there! Keep working on moving forward and letting this become the past... .Take care!

[RomanticFool]

1) Does your wife know about the affair?  
2)And does she know you are still talking to your ex-lover?

No my wife doesn't know either of the affair or that I am still talking. Just to give you a bit of history to my situation. I've known my affair partner since before I was married and six months ago I made a decision to end the r/s. It was hellish but I went no contact to try and cut the tie (which I really didn't want to but was going nuts) then she contacted me a few times. The last time she contacted me was to tell me she had tried to kill herself.

Now, I don't know about anybody else, but that is not something I can dismiss or take lightly regarding a person I care about. I got a great deal of sage advice on here regarding suicide and it was suggested to me that I stay in contact with her and scale the drama down to zero.

Had she not told me that she had tried to take her own life, I would no longer be in contact with her. I had taken a decision that I had to end the affair and focus on my wife. Whether it is manipulation or not (and I suspect at times there has been manipulation) the guidelines on here regarding suicide say to take all threats seriously. She has a history of suicide attempts. She told me last night that I am keeping her alive. Yes, it may well be BPD manipulation, but I am not prepared to take that risk.

My wife and I sleep in separate rooms, which has been the case before the affair partner came back into my life. I think I got embroiled in the re-engagement of the affair because I wanted intimacy. I took a decision to try and focus back on my marriage and move away from the affair, but I am dealing with  a very sick person and I remain concerned that she may try to take her own life.

I still feel this is too much energy put outside the marriage to fulfill rescuer feelings.

You are probably right but I have detached a great deal from my ex. I no longer see her as my romantic partner and from where I was, this is great progress, believe me. I was obsessed with this woman. I remain committed to trying to re-establish a physical r/s with my wife while allowing the closeness between us to flourish. I believe I am being successful on the latter.

When I made it clear to H his behavior was unacceptable and that his decision to place so much concern OUTSIDE our relationship that it drained his reserves for what to put in, and that anything less than no longer talking to "the other woman" would suffice, it took a few weeks, but he stopped.  I was on the crazy side and checked phone records without telling him, but I was able to track that he was being honest.  And devoting himself to me, not just when we felt "connected" but even when we were upset with each other, facing difficult times, and NOW I think it is finally clear to him how destructive his "just being close friends" was.  He has female friends.  But I now no longer feel that icky feeling about them that I used to.  He's not texting them secretly.  He's not trying to "save" them (usually the women he'd engage in emtotioanl cheating and moderate physical had some dama he inserted himself into to "fix", ignoring me and our real-world problems all the while because he could not face them, instead opting to be a "white knight" for someone else, where failure would not hurt his real life so badly).  

I take all of this on board but I am dealing with somebody who tells me she is suicidal. We text each other briefly some days, not at all on others. The rest of the time I focus on the real world and my wife and I have quality time during the week and go out together at weekends and have nice times. Prior to my detachment this was not possible. Things have changed for the healthier and the better. We are not there yet, but I am no longer besotted by this woman sexually or emotionally. I do retain concern for her though.

Sure she does - you "belong to her".  ONce you've seen that part of a pwBPD, the part that sends most people running, they've internalized you as an appendage.  You might as well be her foot.

OK. So are you saying that the suicide talk is all manipulation? I have been advised on here to take it very seriously. I am not willing to walk away from somebody I care about who may need my help. If you think that is a rescuer, then so be it. I don't want to take that risk. It may be manipulation but what if it isn't?

This sounds again like you are having your cake and eating it too - "I have my "friendship" on the side and my wife at home.  I can say I am totally devoting myself to my wife, but still have my foot propping the door open because I have made no big gestures stating I am no longer in this r/s, I am not coming back as a romantic partner, etc."

What cake is there in an ex lover constantly telling me she wants to kill herself? There is no cake. I am not getting off on this situation in any way. Perhaps I feel a modicum of satisfaction from feeling helpful but believe me the emotional trauma of this r/s led me to want rid of her entirely. I changed my attitude towards the whole thing (check out past posts and you will see that I was constantly kicking her off my Facebook and was advised strongly to stop doing so). Bizarrely, staying in contact with her has actually calmed everything down. I thought it would leave me in constant pain of thwarted desire but I have been practising radical acceptance. I believe she has BPD and I believe she is potentially suicidal. I have completely stopped thinking in terms of a romantic r/s and thought only about what could help her - in quite a detached way. I never thought it would be possible or that I was capable of this - but that is the place I am in right now.

You may think this is unfair on my wife but I disagree. I am able to focus on my marriage unencumbered by grief or hidden desire because I know exactly what the situation with the ex is and how unstable she is. Perhaps I am getting some kind of sustenance (supply) from being in contact with her but when she doesn't contact me - I no longer miss her - I actually just wish her well. That is a huge change from where I was and I have the people on here to thank for that.

Of course, her feelings are about you - else, why would she message you?  And why would you want to be someone's lifeline when they are desperate?  Because you want to be a white knight.  

I was advised that her suicidal feelings are not to do with me at all. She also told me that making demands on her as I was before I decided to walk away was making her feel worse. I am not a white night but a friend. I am not trying to save her. I just don't want to leave her with nobody to talk to. There are no plans to see each other on either side.

She is holding on to you.  She is reminding you that she has suicidal tendencies, to make sure you make no grand gestures that you are pulling away.  Until you do so, it's just a dance between you saying you are devoted to your wife, but having this other woman hold a percentage of stock on you.

I don't think the suicide is the game you are stating here. Of course I could be wrong, but it feels real to me. She has proven herself to be unreliable and downright destructive in terms of a love r/s with me, but I have no evidence she is an out and out liar - and I have known her for 14 years. If anything, she is often very honest with me about how things are. However, you sound like you know much more about BPD than I do - so I may be wrong.

And, if your wife is not aware of the affair, you have no consequences for staying in a holding pattern.  If she's aware of the affair, but not that you are still in contact, same.  Only if she is aware, and also knows you are still getting messages and/or calls, requests to meet here and there, only then are you open and letting your wife have the full priority.

Why should there be consequences for me looking out for another human being? I have ended the affair. I am not giving her my romantic attention and nor am I obsessing over the r/s.

My wife does have my full priority - as her husband does hers. In fact, if anything - she has pushed the r/s to exactly what she always wanted. A close friendship with low jeopardy in terms of her husband feeling like she is cheating on him. I always resisted this but now I am prepared to be friends if it means she doesn't feel alone and it isn't costing me my peace of mind.

I know I am supposed to cut off all ties and go cold turkey. I tried that - it was disastrous. This is an easier way and I don't feel like I am cheating on my wife any longer. Either emotionally or physically.

Time will tell if I am deluding myself but I don't think I am. She is mentally ill. I have nothing but compassion for her these days. Where anger and distrust were once strong, I have managed to get in contact with the more caring side of my nature. Everything I did before was raising the emotional ante in order to get her to sleep with me. Since that is off the table, I feel I am being of some help to her. For that I am grateful.

[waverider]

In trying you help with her suicidal feelings I think it is important that you try to divert this to the relevant professionals, and away from doing it yourself. This will separate whether she needs help with her feelings or whether she just wants to engage you.

My wife used to self harm a lot, once I simply called the paramedics each time, or even got her to call them herself, while at the same time not being annoyed or frustrated about it, it took the momentum and drama out of it and it eventually stopped.

[Sunfl0wer]

Really agree with all the perspective and tough questions isilme proposed.

I have been advised on here to take it very seriously.

You have also been proposed that you are NOT her lifeline.  To leave the suicide threats to a professional and refer her to such.  To also quit bringing up the topic of suicide as it could cause a positive reinforcer for suicidal ruminations.  ... .And to "take it seriously" by calling 911 on her or whatever your emergency number is in your locale.

Yet... .
I am wondering why folks hear and pick choose what they do.

So I have personally refrained after saying my bit... .  However, decided to pipe up cause hear so much validity in isilme that I hoped it would somehow get heard... .utilized... .seep in somehow.

Genuinely hoping something will shift here... .the GPS coordinates change after this thread... .idk tho... .am hoping and routing for this to make impact tho.

[Skip]

Guys, I'm not sure I see the affair partner being manipulative with suicide threats or doing anything that warrants a 911 call. In this last call she said she feels suicidal and explains that she is overwhelmed with hopelessness. It feels pretty sincere. She is not asking for anything other than an ear.

RomanticFool listened with empathy. I'd be hard pressed to find too much fault with this. Sure, he could have told her to promise to get an appointment with her doc - and I strongly encourage that going forward - but it is a process and he is doing better.

RomanticFool, where I might push on you is this whole idea that you are a life life. It feels to me (I could me, and I could be wrong) that this is self justification for you to stay connected. I strongly encourage you to not manipulate yourself. I think you are doing that.

The real reason you stay connected is that you can't let go. You have tuned it down a lot, but you have a lot invested in this lady.

isilme is trying to tell you, from women who has been in your wife's place, how you emotional unavailability to your wife is ringing in her ears loudly - she is no fool - women are often more intuitive then men and we have talked at length her about how you are have empathy deficits. You had them with your affair partner and it was catastrophic. You've opened your ears a bit.

You have a deficit, equally, if not more, with your wife. Please don't wait until that blows up to get the message.

Pointed question - where is the new matrimonial bed? This has been a critical issue for sometime for you and your wife - why don't solve it.

I suspect because you are not fully emotionally available.

[Sunfl0wer]

Guys, I'm not sure I see the affair partner being manipulative with suicide threats or doing anything that warrants a 911 call.

Maybe calling 911 this week is not needed, idk.  I am suggesting that IF someone make a "serious" suicidal threat... .THEN 911 IS in fact a most wise course.

However, if the premise for ongoing contact is that it is "what is recommended by this site" to prevent suicide... .
I would take caution on his conclusion... .

Had she not told me that she had tried to take her own life, I would no longer be in contact with her.

Via Skip... .

I don't want to hurt your feelings, so please take this in the way it is intended... .you didn't help her back.

Just trying to help connect some dots here.

Totally hear the point of gradually descalating the situation, and progressing towards that... .  interesting method I had never considered... .certainly wise, imho.  However, the prolongation and reverting back to where we began, imo, is dangerous.

Imo, RA acceptance on the point of: You didn't help her back.
Is needed to end the cycle of ongoing drama triangle.

Am open to conversation re this tho
I find it interesting

[isilme]

What cake is there in an ex lover constantly telling me she wants to kill herself?

The cake of feeling "needed". 

OK. So are you saying that the suicide talk is all manipulation?

Look, someone can be quite serious about suicide talk and STILL be using it to manipulate you.  The two ideas are not exclusive. Everyone on here has stated that it's best to leave that to professionals.  Calling 911 is maybe not ideal, but it should not be off the table, either.  Police can do "welfare checks" I beleive in the case someone remote has a real fear someone will self harm. 

Sucide as both serious and as manipulation:

My father would threaten to murder-suicide me, my mother, and himself, in the hopes Mom would stop her pill abuse and getting us evicted. He would dramatically brandish a knife around, and while I don't doubt he'd kill us and himself if he ever totally lost it, maybe had her goading him sunk in just a bit more, had he disassociated just a bit more, it was a way for him to communication HOW angry and distraught he was.  But he never actually did it.  His two "attempts", locking himself in the bathroom with a knife when I was 8, and in the garage with cars running when I was 14, were both grand gestures. His family is full of grand gestures.  I had the task of screaming at him to please stop it, to not die, to not leave me alone with the crazy woman who was my mom.  In a way, it was almost brilliant if you consider that about 30 minutes before his anger and violence had been so great he was nothing to be pitied, Mom was actually more the victim up to that point, being tossed into walls and such, but expressing his emotional state with threats of self harm swapped them as far as victimhood in my eyes in our little Karpman triangle of a family. 

Mom's suicide attempt was quiet, no fanfare, no threats.  She just OD'ed on her side of the house, to avoid letting us know we were being evicted a week prior to Christmas because she decided to not pay rent.  She was always tranquilized at that time in my life, so her being conked out when I went to bed (14 years old) was normal.  I'd gone to bed, it as a school night.  Dad was working his 2nd job (ostensibly to pay that rent), and came home late, asked if I knew how to do CPR/rescue breathing.  I'd learned in health class that year, so I held her airway open while we waited for the ambulance, and we got her stomach pumped. 

I am no expert in how self-harm and suicide are enacted by others. I know what I have seen and experienced in dealing with highly volatile, emotional people, and in my own head.  I have had friends who liked carving into themselves, burning themselves mildly for attention.  I have had them like piercings for outward expressions of needing physical pain.  I have also noticed, at least in my life, the more someone talks about it, the more they "seem" to be seeking attention, wanting you to know they feel emotional pain, and resort to the use of a hyperbolic threat to get the point across. 

I have been suicidal.  Know who I've told?  A bunch of internet strangers on this board, about 30 and 10 years after each crisis passed.  Want to know why?  I did not WANT to be talked down.  I did not WANT pity or attention.  I did not WANT people to be aware I was facing such inner turmoil, so much pain at simply living.  I wanted my pain to end (some of it pain caused by my H and his dalliance with other women).   I saw it as being able to finally get some rest, get some sleep.  I kept a knife in the bathroom intending to slice my wrist in the tub someday if it felt like the right day.  It was hidden under some towels, in the back.  Mom had used pills and I have had such a pull to no be her, even though it's probably a peaceful way to go, I could not being myself to try her way.  Also, it's slow enough someone could "save" me, and I did not want that if I committed to it.  Know what kept me from doing it both as a pre-teen living in a hellish house and as an adult reeling from a huge hurt?  At neither time did I want anyone I cared about, regardless of how much they hurt me, to find me, dead, or deal with any guilt about it.  I could not find a way to disappear and die, and so I got past it, and got stronger, and put the knife back in the kitchen. 

I can't say from anyone else's head if they are serious or not.  But that is not REALL the case here.

You are supposedly extricating yourself from this woman.  But won't commit to doing it 100%.  I can understand needing some time, wanting to let it go gently, but at some point, it needs to be let go.  It is obvious you have a lot still riding on being approved of, liked, or thought of favorably by this person who is not your spouse.  And, at least on this thread, your wife seems to be an afterthought.  You give lip service to being committed fully, and then turn around and talk about keeping in contact with an affair partner.  You have not given up smoking, you've just cut back. You are still a smoker.

[Skip]

The cake of feeling "needed". 
Look, someone can be quite serious about suicide talk and STILL be using it to manipulate you.  The two ideas are not exclusive. Everyone on here has stated that it's best to leave that to professionals.  Calling 911 is maybe not ideal, but it should not be off the table, either.  Police can do "welfare checks" I believe in the case someone remote has a real fear someone will self harm. 

Just some thoughts... .

I don't believe that it is best to leave it to "professionals". I'm not sure where anyone is reading that the police or emergency rooms cure depression which is a prime cause of suicide. I have read that the number one predictor of recovery is a supportive family. Yes, mental health professionals can treat, and that is needed. Yes, police can kill or disarm a person who is in the process. But family and friends are the backbone of recovery. Isolation is not.

I don't read her actions as manipulative. She went into inpatient care and didn't even tell RM until she was out. Her comments now are not coming with any demands. If anything, her only request has been for RM to stop pushing for more time, attention, affection, and sex.

She seems resigned to the fact that she doesn't want to be in an affair and can't handle the demands. She is the one driving the letting go - but doesn't want to be summarily rejected, cold. Worse case, she is not considering RM demands and desires to engage more - she wants a pretty low level of involvement - acceptance and low level of emotional support.

Frankly, I read this to be that as long as RM doesn't do anything manipulative (e.g. silent treatment or pressure), she is wants to let this all slip slowly away.

I can understand needing some time, wanting to let it go gently, but at some point, it needs to be let go.  It is obvious you have a lot still riding on being approved of, liked, or thought of favorably by this person who is not your spouse.  And, at least on this thread, your wife seems to be an afterthought.  You give lip service to being committed fully, and then turn around and talk about keeping in contact with an affair partner.  You have not given up smoking, you've just cut back. You are still a smoker.

This, in my opinion (1 man's opinion) is really the heart of the matter.

One the one hand, RM has dramatically stepped back from the affair. Good. But why?

Is it for reasons of retreat or advance?

Pressure was not working - if was contributing to the hopelessness that put affair partner in the hospital. It also cause affair partner to back away. If RM wanted to recover this relationship, this is what we would tell him to do on the Saving Board. Lay low and listen. So this creates dilemma. Is the new posture about back away slowly, or is it about recovery? I'm not making an accusation, but rather saying that some serious self reflection is needed.

What is telling is that the lack of concern about the wife does not rise to the level as the lack of concern for the affair partner. The treatment of the wife is clear, unremorseful, long term abuse at the highest level as isilme is trying to point out. There is no sense that, "wow, I wronged someone at the highest level, and I need to stop". Rather, you live in a reality where this affair is normalized, no big deal, wife is probably ok, no worries. She is not a fully deserving person - she doesn't deserve fidelity, truth, dedication, etc.

I don't sense you have really shifted from the affair to your marriage, yet.

[Sunfl0wer]

But family and friends are the backbone of recovery. Isolation is not.

However, if I am recalling correctly.  Skip did previously question... .  So if you are supporting her RM, then how does that leave room for her turning to her husband, and others within her proximity?  As it is those family and friends in her proximity who get the bigger picture view who are best able to support her and studies showed that these are the ones who make the biggest impact.

My memory can be wrong, idk.
However, I thought it was a good point.  RM gets a compartmentalized version of what is going on for her.  The basis for the relationship is her being suicidal, him "being a support."  So by engaging with her... .  is in fact enabling her to not spend the same effort on seeking help from sources within her proximity such as her husband and such.  Sure, she CAN do both, however, it is energy spent in a different direction... .which could be spent differently if RM were out of the picture.

Humm... .my words are not as clear as I wish.

[RomanticFool]

Wow, that is a helluva lot of feedback. Thank you all. I am not going to attempt to answer it all in this post but I want to say the following things:

I do NOT believe there is manipulation on either side. I believe what we have from our previous r/s is actually a friendship.

The detachment is not being driven by her. If anything it was driven by me and she has accepted where I want the r/s to be rather than the other way round. She recently intimated about meeting up and I did not respond.

The r/s no longer affects my marriage. I do not believe I am deluding myself on this. I feel that I have let her go as a lover and that the contact as a friend is GOOD for both of us. That means it is not getting in the way of either one of our marriages. I believe that her husband plays a significant part in helping her back from the brink as he has seen her pathology up close over a great number of years. She has said things to me recently like 'where would I be without you to talk to.' I read no more into this than she wants connection as she feels close friendship with me. I do not think she can emotionally handle a love r/s and I have taken this off the table. I have no intention of trying to rekindle any kind of face to face r/s. This r/s has taken its toll on me emotionally over a long period of time and I do not want to go back there.

My wife and I are getting on probably better than we have done in our entire marriage. We have discussed getting a new bed and trying ways to get around her sleeping problems. There is willingness on both sides to tackle the problem, but I have to say, I do not hold out much hope of rekindling a sexual r/s with my wife. I say this because I don't think she is interested in me in that way. If she was, then my emotional distance would have been an issue over the years. She has no issue with it at all. She feels that we are close and when we cuddle on the sofa she seems content. I am going to ty to rekindle our sex life but I don't think it is going to happen. However, recently my wife met with a member of her family who she had no idea existed until last year. She told me last night that I have been a wonderful support.

I know people on here will think being in any kind of contact with the ex is a bad thing. For me it no longer is a drain on my emotional life. It is not even dangling temptation in my way. I have both eyes open and my ex's mental health has dictated her life choices and I do not want to be part of the equation. More importantly, I do not want to aggravate her mental health, which a sexual r/s clearly has done in the past. Her mental health means that these suicidal feelings come and go. I am not going to call 999 every time she tells me the thoughts are there. It seems talking about it (I am sure I am not the only person she talks to) helps to get her through the days. EVERY TIME SHE SAYS SHE FEELS SUICIDAL I TELL HER TO SEE A DOCTOR IMMEDIATELY. The way it seems to go is that one day she can mention it and then it goes away sometimes for days and other times for weeks. I WILL ALWAYS TELL HER TO GET PROFESSIONAL HELP IF SHE MENTIONS SUICIDE. I never mention the word suicide to her at any point. I WILL ALWAYS TELL HER TO SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP.

It is not her slowly phasing the r/s out - it is me. When I walked away from it earlier this year I had had enough. When she told me she had tried to take her life I wanted to offer my support. That is still the case. I don't see myself as a saviour or a lifeline or her white knight. I see myself as somebody who she feels she can talk to when she needs to. I do not want to go back to the drama of what took place before. If I cut all contact from her, I guarantee there will be drama.

I am trying to let go with love. I hope you can all accept that this is a genuine desire in my heart and mind. I no longer feel that I am cheating on my wife because I am not. I am not emotionally cheating on her because I am no longer invested in a r/s with my ex. I envisage a time further down the line where we will contact each other less and less. Eventually it will be down to very little contact. She may always choose to stay in contact with me, I don't know. What I do know is that it's a vast improvement on where we were before. Intensity = zero. Drama = ZERO. My headspace is no longer taken up with this r/s and I am present for my wife.

If the suicide element wasn't part of the equation, I would not even be posting about it on here anymore. That is my truth.