Kids have many complaints about me

[justaboutdone]

A couple months ago, our shared parenting ended after being divorced two years.  My ex filed to terminate shared parenting but she lost custody.  She never felt responsible for any of her behavior let alone recognize her poor behavior. 
But in typical BPD fashion, she has been very manipulative in getting me alienated from the kids.  The kids are convinced I'm a horrible dad that doesn't listen to them, I don't know their needs, consistently feed them food that is "unhealthy" for them, told me I was trying to kill them with the the food choices, that I'm wrong, etc... .  I could go on and on about their complaints toward me.  This morning my daughter raged into tears and screaming and said that I did a million things wrong and named three.  She said I messed up a speech that she asked me to be type up, didn't pack her lunch right, and didn't know how to get on the internet.  On the way to school, I told her to be thankful that I typed up her speech for her.  She said "thank you for typing it up wrong".  It would seem that any disciplinary action or giving them quick responses to their blatant exaggerations and misbehavior only solidify their opinion that I'm the bad guy.  The kids are 9 and the main reason cited for me to get custody is because of the parental alienation caused my mom toward me.  The last two years mom did a lot of damage in alienating the kids from me.  I have them 2/3 of the time.  Any ideas how to proceed?  They see a child therapist every other week but honestly feel very little has been accomplished.  Thank you. 

[livednlearned]

Does the therapist understand parental alienation?

If you feel therapy is not being effective, don't hesitate to keep looking for someone you think will have an impact.

Throw everything you have toward it. In my experience, I wish I had done family counseling with S16 in addition to his individual therapy. And treat it like a second job, not just a thing S16 did once a week while I worried in the wings.

If you aren't already, would you consider getting your own individual therapist? This actually helped me immensely, as well as learning how to validate. Like really validate. Not just words, but the whole bag of tricks (body language, eye contact, facial expression). This is not easy to do with kids -- it has to be combined with SET skills (support, empathy, truth), with the truth often being boundaries.

Honestly, the process of offsetting alienation tactics was an evolution in my personality. And I needed outside professionals to help me see the dynamic in my relationship with S16. It's a work in progress, but I do think my presence in counseling (this is recent) has pushed S16 emotionally to become a little less stuck, which is where a lot of the overwhelming sadness was pooling.

How did you pick the child therapist? What is it that makes you sense very little is being accomplished?

[justaboutdone]

We had a child therapist as t the time of divorce that was very good working with me but I wouldn't say that the kids experienced much change. That therapist reported my ex to Child Protective Services twice. So my ex got the child therapist switched. But in the year we have been at the new theraoust, we still have the exact same problems with the kids. Nobody wants to tell the kids that mommy is saying inappropriate things about dad. Or that any of moms inappropriate behavior was ever bad. It's just a rut and my ex just finds new ways to manipulate the situation and kids. I mean, how do you ever get away from being the bad guy?

[livednlearned]

I mean, how do you ever get away from being the bad guy?

I only had small amounts of parental alienation, compared to what people here have experienced, so I don't know if my experiences will transfer to yours. But I read Richard Warshak's book Divorce Poison cover to cover, several times, and changed the way I talked to my son. Warshak encourages parents to talk to their kids about different kinds of untruths: lying, withholding, secrecy, privacy, hyperbole, and even forgetfulness. I would bring up scenarios and ask him what he thought. For example, "Say that Jake comes over and we have a whole box of popsicles in the fridge. He asks if we have anything sweet and you say no, forgetting that we have the whole box. Is that lying? Or is that forgetfulness? " He was 10 when I started to do this with him, and he seemed to like the exercise. The hope was that he would be able to transfer these kinds of scenarios to the stuff his dad was doing.

If you haven't read Divorce Poison, it's worth every penny. He describes scenarios that were chillingly similar to what my ex was doing to our kid. And then he offers phrases that you can use when those scenarios come up.

Another key thing that worked was validation. I validated my son and learned to set aside my own reactivity to what he was saying. For example, if he said, ":)ad says you love the dog more than me" I would say, "Wow, that would hurt my feelings if I thought my mom loved a dog more than me. How did you feel when dad said that?" That particular skill was really hard because my son started to subvert what his dad said, and would rarely speak about him as he became a teen. I had to learn to validate his body language or facial expression. "Hey, you ok? Your shoulders are pulled forward and you have a really sad look on your face. Anything bothering you?"

My SO has an ex with BPD, or at the very least BPD traits, and the middle child (now 20) ended up in therapy after experiencing psychosis. Which was kind of fortunate because BPD mom agreed to therapy, and the therapist would say to D20 that not only did she have a right to have a relationship with both parents, it was healthy and biologically, one of the most important relationships she could have. And D20 took that to heart. The T gave her skills to recognize triangulation, or talking one parent when the other wasn't around. I don't know if she was successful (D20 has BPD traits herself), but I have heard her say, after complaining about her mom, that it wasn't useful to talk about her to SO. And he agreed, then asked if she wanted to talk to her T, because it sounded important.

Pointing everything back to the kids' feelings is a skill that isn't necessarily intuitive (because we have our own), but the natural parent-child relationship gets inverted with a BPD parent, who seeks validation from the child instead of vice versa. That's why it's helpful to have a T of your own to deal with PA, because you will need validation from someone in order to have the presence of mind and heart to validate your kids, especially when they are attacking you on behalf of your ex.

Another thing that has worked for me is going into the T session periodically, over things that are painful, and expressing how I feel about something. The T then did some skillful things to get my son to understand what might be happening, especially if he was acting out on behalf of his dad.

Hope that helps. I know these situations are complex, and baffling, and excruciatingly painful

[takingandsending]

Hi justaboutdone.

I think David that posts here used an example of his sons telling him how awful a father he was, saying he was a monster, and he started to chase them around and pretend to be a monster. With 9 years olds, a playful response can work very well to let them have their feelings in a safe way.

My 6 year old likes to share with me the things that I am not as good as his mom (my xw) at doing, like "you don't know how to make lunch; my mom does". I then suggest a bunch of really awful lunch ideas, like peanut butter and tuna fish sandwiches or monkey brain soup. He laughs, feels validated that I hear his insecurity that I might be deficient and then starts suggesting things he'd like for lunch. I might add a really bad idea to his suggested choice, which makes him laugh more and tell me how he wants it made. We work out getting enough protein and healthy carbs. Then I make what he asks for. I make sure to check in with him when he gets home whether or not he had enough food, enjoyed it, etc. I do my best not to shame him if he doesn't like something I made (although I have flopped on this a few times - I do acknowledge when I blow it).

Think of all the things that you know you can do that your xw cannot do because of her illness. She cannot validate, she cannot empathize, she cannot hear criticism or blame without projecting it out, she cannot be emotionally safe. These are all gifts that your girls need from you, in heavy doses. If you are giving them this, and you have 66% custody, I think there's a really good chance that you can stem the alienation tide.

[ForeverDad]

In Divorce Poison Richard Warshak pointed out that children will often vent onto the more stable parent because they can do it knowing their parent will still love them and not overreact.  For example, do you think they'd feel safe saying such things to their mother?  What's complicates it is that they're influenced by their mother still.

[justaboutdone]

Hi justaboutdone.

I think David that posts here used an example of his sons telling him how awful a father he was, saying he was a monster, and he started to chase them around and pretend to be a monster.

I like that and look for ways to implement this.

Think of all the things that you know you can do that your xw cannot do because of her illness.

Excellent point and will keep that in mind.

I will say that this is all very frustrating.  I'm sure like everyone on here, I didn't think my life would end up spending so much time looking for ways to cope with a BPDxw.  Just a couple examples in the last hour that are very frustrating are when I asked my daughter if she could get the other hair bun from mommy's so that she had two.  She wants to be princess Leia for halloween.  Her response was, Dad that's stealing!  What's so very frustrating about this is the kids have pretty much taken all the stuff out of my house at exchange time that my ex and I split when we divorce.  The kids would throw a screaming fit and scream at me if I didn't let them take it out of the house.  She clearly would put them in the middle.  It's my ex's little manipulative game to get everything back when we divorced except the family room couch.  That is pretty much all that's left.  Just when I think she can't possibly take anything else out of the house, she does.   But that comment by my daughter was insanely frustrating that it would be stealing by asking mommy for the other hair bun at her house.

Another example in the last hour was my daughter just had dropped off a cheer award that they forgot to give her last night.  The coach mentioned that they forgot while standing at my door.  As soon as she left, my son said that is technically mommy's award since she took us to practice last night. 

These comments and defensiveness from the kids of my BPDxw don't stop!  Child therapist feels that with the new court order this will gradually go away, she hopes. 

[justaboutdone]

In Divorce Poison Richard Warshak pointed out that children will often vent onto the more stable parent because they can do it knowing their parent will still love them and not overreact. 

Sounds like I need to read that book.

[david]

My youngest used to call me an evil monster. This went on for a while until the one day I stood up,put my arms out like Frankenstein, and chased him around the house. He loved it and he stopped calling me evil except when he said it playfully because he wanted me to chase him.
Another time I stopped at a Wawa to get a cup of coffee. Both boys were in the car. Around that time they used to complain that I was always punishing them.I bought them an Icee. As I approached the car I noticed they were playing video games and didn't see me approach. I opened the door and in a stern voice said, "you boys better enjoy this Icee or you will be punished like never before." Both were very startled. They saw the Icee and within a second they both smiled. From that point on they would ask me to punish them when we were driving somewhere which meant, "Can we get an Icee ?"
Our boys used to test me a lot in the beginning. They said a lot of things that I knew were coming from ex. Eventually they learned that they could talk to me and I would listen. They started talking to me more and over time I learned a lot about what ex was doing. I listened.  They stopped talking to her because they never knew what their mom would say or do. That took several years but things are much better now.

[takingandsending]

Ditto. Even though I am only 7 months out from split with xw, boys confide that they know they won't be punished, yelled at or told they're wrong when they goof around during their strings practice or act silly and loud. They don't stay angry when they get upset, and they know I don't judge them for having strong feelings.

I was doing some work downstairs this evening and listening to them playing legos together upstairs, and I realized how happy I am to be able to provide them with a good environment where they aren't always fighting for mom's approval and just can be peaceful together. It's really like heaven compared to what it was like when I was with my xw.

Hang in there justaboutdone. I really believe that if you just keep consistently validating and being there for your kids, they will grow to trust that your love and know you've got their back.

[david]

Another thing I used to purposely do is make a mistake, that they would understand, and not go off the deep end like their mom would. If they pointed out the mistake I would take responsibility for my mistake and not find someone/something to blame. Indirectly they talked about it by saying things that occurred at their moms and how they needed to say nothing to protect themselves from a rage.

[justaboutdone]

My youngest used to call me an evil monster. This went on for a while until the one day I stood up,put my arms out like Frankenstein, and chased him around the house. He loved it and he stopped calling me evil except when he said it playfully because he wanted me to chase him.
Another time I stopped at a Wawa to get a cup of coffee. Both boys were in the car. Around that time they used to complain that I was always punishing them.I bought them an Icee. As I approached the car I noticed they were playing video games and didn't see me approach. I opened the door and in a stern voice said, "you boys better enjoy this Icee or you will be punished like never before." Both were very startled. They saw the Icee and within a second they both smiled. From that point on they would ask me to punish them when we were driving somewhere which meant, "Can we get an Icee ?"
Our boys used to test me a lot in the beginning. They said a lot of things that I knew were coming from ex. Eventually they learned that they could talk to me and I would listen. They started talking to me more and over time I learned a lot about what ex was doing. I listened.  They stopped talking to her because they never knew what their mom would say or do. That took several years but things are much better now.

I think that at one point early in the divorce, these things probably would have worked.  But today, my kids hate everything that I do.  They are critical and quick to judge me and find fault in everything that I do.  Honestly, I feel like I am very very far from having trust with them.  I can't drive down the road without my daughter criticizing the way I drive.  That fear was instigated by mom.  That's one of may examples.  When we first divorced and for about a year, my ex's behavior was nuts.  She would blame and criticize me and the kids would yell at me for making mommy so upset, ruining the family, and all kinds of whatever mean things they mommy told them I was doing.  But honestly after two years, we really haven't gotten away from that attitude.  I just don't "make mommy mad" as much.  But the way the kids talk to me is the same way my ex did when were married.

[david]

It may be harder to overcome and you may need lots of patience. I found a therapist back then that did help me see what things I could do to counter ex's alienation. My biggest thing, in my view, was they needed to trust me. The fact that you see that as an issue is a good thing. You have identified the problem. I really have no answers on how to get it back. I suspect it will take time and can't be forced. However, I have read posts here, a few years back, from people who had one BPD parent and that they acted out towards their non parent. As they got older they were able to talk to their non parent and say how they wanted them in their life but they didn't know how to act. They wanted them to fight for them but couldn't explain/understand that is what they wanted until they got older.

[justaboutdone]

Thanks Dave for the good advice.  I really wanted the child therapist to just talk to the kids about everything that has happened and how mom's behavior is very inappropriate and she is blaming your dad for everything.  Neither child therapist has recommended that solution. They don't want to talk negatively about a parent to the kids.  So, I guess that I will sit here and wait for them to figure it out on their own, if they ever do.  I don't want to talk negatively about either parent but it's frustrating sitting back and waiting... .wishing.

[ForeverDad]

Do the children have their own counselor?  Over time a perceptive and experienced counselor can discern the parental influence.  Of course the most critical aspect is to ensure the counselor isn't gullible and turned into a negative advocate.

I recall my son's counselor informing me she asked him, Whose private areas can you touch?  She expected, Mine.  Instead he answered, Mommy's.  So she worked with him on helping him gain a better understanding.

While counselors and therapists often refuse to appear in court, they are able to discuss their observations and conclusions with experts such as Custody Evaluators who can and do make recommendations to the court.

[justaboutdone]

Do the children have their own counselor?  Over time a perceptive and experienced counselor can discern the parental influence.  Of course the most critical aspect is to ensure the counselor isn't gullible and turned into a negative advocate.

I recall my son's counselor informing me she asked him, Whose private areas can you touch?  She expected, Mine.  Instead he answered, Mommy's.  So she worked with him on helping him gain a better understanding.

While counselors and therapists often refuse to appear in court, they are able to discuss their observations and conclusions with experts such as Custody Evaluators who can and do make recommendations to the court.

Kids have their own counselor and during the custody dispute, she saw the dangers in mom and recommended me custody among others. But the kids opinion is so fixed about mom being awesome and dad is horrible. How do you Change it?  Even when I do good things for the kids, they find the bad in it and exploit it. They look for reasons to be mad at me.