Deer in the Headlights: How to respond?

[walkinthepark247]

Some of you have probably seen me between the "conflicting" and "improving" boards. That may seem odd, but I really am trying to figure out where it all stands.

Today, the kids were napping and I had some time to talk to my wife one-on-one. She usually uses the kids as an excuse to avoid me entirely. I tried to keep the conversation light and about normal topics. She immediately went to "why don't you share with me what is bothering you about this relationship?" Now, I have told her many, many times. While I have never uttered the words or acronym BPD, I have explained as best I could that I believe she needed professional help. Right now, she is in a very, very dark place. She looks emaciated and has lost a ton of weight (not in a good way). I'm not saying this to attack, rather, I am worried about her. She's not "well" and it's abundantly apparent to everyone.

When she asked me the question, I tried as best I can to deflect. But, she kept at it. Truly, I was having a relaxing day overall. Went out to rake some leaves and my D2 even helped me. Each and every time we talk about our relationship, money, trips, family, it ends with her getting extremely anxious. It ends with her either throwing a wild fit (slamming doors, screaming) or the silent treatment.  It has also ended with her physically attacking me on several occassions. Admittedly, she has curtailed the violence since I made it abundantly clear that it would no longer be tolerated.

I have politely asked her to get professional help in the past. I've given up on that for the time being. But, if I was truly honest today, I would have said "you know, you seem extremely unhappy (despondent?) and I wish you would get some help".

Am I going about this all wrong? Is it unreasonable of me to try to deflect merely to have a decent day without drama? Do any of you ever find yourselves in this predicament? Where you want to say something, but you know it's only going to end in more drama? Once again, she asked me to "open up". 

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[RolandOfEld]

Hi walkinthepark247, this is thegoodsoldier under a new name (was nervous if my wife ever found this forum she would recognize the old one).

This sounds like an incredibly tense situation and I think you did no wrong in trying to create a little oasis of peace for yourself. If you're wife is dysregulating now, which it sounds like she is, I doubt she truly wants to hear about what is bothering you. I had a similar standoff with my wife last night. I tried not to JADE but found myself still explaining how there might have been different layers to what she saw as a black and white betrayal on my part. Of course everything I said was total nonsense and all she wanted to hear was "I'm wrong and selfish", otherwise it would go on forever. In the past I would just say yes to anything, but this time I tried "I certainly could have done some things better and I have behaved selfishly at times," which is true. It didn't diffuse the situation but at least stopped it from becoming an all out blowout. 

I think the most painful part of being with someone with BPD is we can never say our side. True honesty is very rarely accepted, which makes a healthy relationship / communication almost impossible. Though we all seek a long term solution, I think in the mean time we still need to find our little oasis' of peace and happiness. I also don't think telling them they need treatment will ever work out well. If they get treatment, I think it needs to be their decision.

But bear in mind I am still a newbie to all this.

[pearlsw]

Hi guys, This sounds like my weekend too! I tried to hold in my feelings, but he asked about them, and I tried to be honest. I perhaps laid it on a little thick. I wish I had kept it to one direct sentence. When I let out what I really think and feel it can really make for trouble. It certainly makes you want to just clam up and ride out your internal storms privately instead of talking them over... .Well, after I spoke, he just yelled at me that I was "depressed!" as he hid under the blankets, crying and clinging to me. So, I dunno. I've told him recently I can't carry the weight of this stuff alone anymore, that he ought to get some help. Maybe something can be done to make him feel better more of the time than he does now. But in my case, before I came to the boards here, the fact that he had some form of instability was already in discussion. He admits he is emotionally sensitive/unstable so I try to call it that more than I say "mental illness." It is interesting, we do have a lot of tools for listening to them, but in terms of saying how we feel about the state of the relationship... .I don't know how to handle that either! I can do the positive side of things, say things that give him/us hope, but I don't know how to share my disappointments or discuss the damage being in a relationship with him has done to me. Maybe if we paired each disappointment with a positive point? What do you think?

[walkinthepark247]

This sounds like an incredibly tense situation and I think you did no wrong in trying to create a little oasis of peace for yourself. If you're wife is dysregulating now, which it sounds like she is, I doubt she truly wants to hear about what is bothering you. I had a similar standoff with my wife last night. I tried not to JADE but found myself still explaining how there might have been different layers to what she saw as a black and white betrayal on my part. Of course everything I said was total nonsense and all she wanted to hear was "I'm wrong and selfish", otherwise it would go on forever. In the past I would just say yes to anything, but this time I tried "I certainly could have done some things better and I have behaved selfishly at times," which is true. It didn't diffuse the situation but at least stopped it from becoming an all out blowout. 

It was heartbreaking to me. There were so many things that I wanted to say, but I know they wouldn't have been received well (or at all). Any of it would have would have been construed as "an attack". At the same time, she was pleading with me to respond. This is where my brain goes these days: Was it really trying to make the relationship better? Or, was it a trap? All of this is precisely why I am not ready to return to marriage counseling (if ever). The entire session is about all the various ways I have harmed her over the years. All of them are minor offenses at best. When I raise my concerns, I am "attacking" her. What I am finding about those who exhibit signs of BPD (at least my wife) is that they are really good about manipulating the facts to make themselves look the "victim".

[ozmatoz]

My wife has often said to me (demanded) complete and utter honesty, to not be afraid of hurting her.  She will decide what she can and cannot live/deal with.  She can tell when I'm skirting around issues, I find that she is incredibly good at picking up small cues or differences.  Often she'll get hung up on the exact words said even if I stumbled and used a wrong word, it then throws the entire conversation off.  I have tried to bring some truths out into the light.  If I own up to my stuff, she then uses it relentlessly to persecute me.  Never getting past it. Ever.  If its something about her, or how I feel she is contributing then it is turned on me that I am projecting, and how dare I accuse her of something. And then I'm persecuted for being an a-hole and now am a sh--ty husband for treating her the way I do.

So pretty much any of those important conversations I should have been be having with my spouse turned into a lose-lose.  So I stopped trying.  Now its my fault that I don't want to work on it or communicate.  Lose-Lose-Lose.

You are definitely not alone.  I think their conscious mind "knows" that they should be having open conversations with their spouse so they ask for it (as they should).  But once the conversation begins to happen they quickly cannot grasp the depth or pain and lash out.  I believe at that point they are probably now unconsciously trying to protect themselves.  Which in turn causes the rest of us to deal with the nonsense.

Good luck,
-Oz

[pearlsw]

Hi ozmatoz, I think you described this very well. It is so hard. I get some of this too, told I should I talk and be more open and then innocent things get stored up, twisted, and later used against me. It sure makes you not want to speak up so much and then they pursue, feeling you are hiding things, and then it just goes on and on. What are some strategies we can use to deal with this? I try to just have shorter conversations about the relationship when I do have to talk about it. I try to add in whatever positive stuff I can to balance when I have to talk about something that is bothering me. I think because of my h's severe black and white thinking he takes any sign I feel bad about the relationship very hard, and he can't handle the pain of that.

[mixnmatch]

Hi ozmatoz, I think you described this very well. It is so hard. I get some of this too, told I should I talk and be more open and then innocent things get stored up, twisted, and later used against me. It sure makes you not want to speak up so much and then they pursue, feeling you are hiding things, and then it just goes on and on. What are some strategies we can use to deal with this? I try to just have shorter conversations about the relationship when I do have to talk about it. I try to add in whatever positive stuff I can to balance when I have to talk about something that is bothering me. I think because of my h's severe black and white thinking he takes any sign I feel bad about the relationship very hard, and he can't handle the pain of that.

This thread sounds like a snapshot of my weekends. Would love some practical tips on how to respond.
My tendency now is to be very calm and be generic in my answers, but I think it makes my wife feel invalidated.
Not sure of the balance here... .

[walkinthepark247]

Wow! I came in this morning and this was the thread that had popped up first. I just had another conversation just like I described in my first post. Admittedly, my wife was extremely calm when she asked. But, she wouldn't let it go. Except, this time she kept rehashing things that were said in a previous marriage counseling session (we no longer go). It turned into "I cannot trust you".

She was digging out a laundry list of reasons that she "cannot trust" me. Keep in mind that she has told me she cannot trust me for several years now. She even uttered those words very early in our marriage. Recently, it has been playing on a loop in her head.

The saddest part is that she seemed to be legitimately trying. At least, it appeared so. I'm just so conflicted because these conversations have never gone anywhere in the past. She is unable to take even the slightest criticism (suggestion?). It doesn't matter how you couch it. 

I would also be interested how others have dealt with this.

[walkinthepark247]

Well, I gave it a go this morning and it went about as I expected. What I said was pretty darn watered-down given what I truly feel inside. It wasn't even that long and drawn out. I asked why she always talks to me so differently than others. When she speaks to me, she looks at the ground and lowers her voice significantly.

This ended with her yelling and slamming several doors. So, I guess I learned that lesson.

If I was brutally honest, I would have said that I have been extremely lonely for some time. I am able to speak more openly about my day with co-workers. I would love to talk openly with her, but it doesn't appear possible.

I recognize that this is the "improving" board. I just took a stab at "improving" (upon request) and it ended up back where it began. Keep in mind that I was very calm. It ended with her locking herself in a room and not coming out when I left. I said goodbye through the door... .to silence.

[ozmatoz]

If I was brutally honest, I would have said that I have been extremely lonely for some time. I am able to speak more openly about my day with co-workers. I would love to talk openly with her, but it doesn't appear possible.

I'm glad if only for your own sanity that you are giving it a "try."  I too have bounced around boards on here not know where my r/s really stood, or what I wanted.  I believe I have "seen the light" that my r/s is not normal and have stopped trying "normal" things.  Unfortunately this has led to my r/s on the brink of divorce.  Not to say that is where yours is headed, just be kind to yourself.  You tried.  Over and over again.

I wish I had some strategies to offer you all on here.  I've tried the tools but my uBPDw is so firmly entrenched in splitting me that I have had ZERO moments of any calm discussions in months.  She has been in various stages of dysregulation constantly and it very well may be a prelude to an extinction burst.

Be well everyone.
-Oz

[isilme]

Now, I have told her many, many times. While I have never uttered the words or acronym BPD, I have explained as best I could that I believe she needed professional help. Right now, she is in a very, very dark place. She looks emaciated and has lost a ton of weight (not in a good way). I'm not saying this to attack, rather, I am worried about her. She's not "well" and it's abundantly apparent to everyone.

Not the best place to go, yet.  Telling her you think she needs help in her mind dumps it all on her and makes things her fault.  BPD is tied to shame avoidance - they have trouble processing things being their responsibility or fault, and so lash out to make it yours.  Once they have no recourse except to accept the shame, they often fall into a pitiful, sad sack of a response, "poor me, no one can love me, I'm terrible, you must hate me, I will fall into a sad depression now."

I know you want to be able to lay it all out, but her emotional disability won't make that a productive conversation, as you've seen.  There is no phrase, no set of careful words, that will convince her she has anything wrong with HER that she needs to work on.   We want to use logic, expect empathy, and feel if we just said the right thing they'd understand.  They can't.  NOt usually by the time someone finds this board, not during a period of dysregulation, and especially not during a rage.  Later, after working with the TOOLS and LESSONS, you may find the ones that work for you.  

All I can really say is learning new ways to respond on our part is what makes all the difference.  We also need to work on us - we can only really work on us.  My initial, codependent reactions were a lot of what was making the conflict worse.  Even just a few months after changing up my responses and how I reacted made a difference, where I went from ready to leave about 10-11 years ago to being with H for 21 years now and things are much improved.  

If you feel it's too far gone, it's best to make what peace you can.  If you want to try to make it better, focus on what you can do about YOU to keep you happy, make you a vibrant person again in your own right, regardless of how your W feels and behaves.  You are separate people voluntarily sharing a life - not one entity like BPD tries to make us.  

[walkinthepark247]

This has gone on even farther today. I'm merely writing it because I need to get it out (and get back to work). Once again, she locked herself in a room and wouldn't speak to me (after slamming a couple of doors). Now, I am at work and get a text that "You applied for life insurance and didn't tell me. Should I call an attorney?"

Not that it matters, but I started an online application for disability insurance. I'm self-employed. Extremely reasonable, IMHO. It feels weird even trying to justify it. Apparently, some company sent a "you're approved" letter to my house for some junk life insurance policy. I truly didn't know what the heck she was talking about.

I responded to the "should I get a lawyer now?" text with: "what are you even talking about?" Of course, that leads to more, "I need to call a lawyer" and "see, I told you I could never trust you" (standard response for everything). It also ended with "please remove me from your Facebook".

Ughhhh... .There is no rational / reasonable response to any of the above texts. Just: "OK"

[isilme]

Ughhhh... .There is no rational / reasonable response to any of the above texts. Just: "OK"

No, there is not.  This is the first major realization we all need to make - nothing we say at this point will make a difference.  The big step to take is to protect yourself physically, emotionally, and in cases where the pqBPD may be litigious, legally and financially.

I write at work.  When H sends dysregulated texts, I respond very minimally and then have to switch off.  There is no use in fighting with a wall - it just upsets me and wastes my time.  He can freak out at the loss of contact and it does not feel good worrying about it, but sometimes the lack of contact makes him self soothe instead of ramping it up as continued contact usually leads to. 

Mail - H tends to think all mail is real, is something I requested, and needs to be addressed or shredded.  I have to constantly point out things addressed to "Current Resident" went to the whole damn town and don't need shredding.  I also now go through the mail with him and call everything not "real" SPAM to emphasize it's not something we asked for or need to address. 

Part of this is his poor executive control - he does not like paper work, he fears paperwork, it has always caused problems as long as I've known him, and so mail is triggering.  He feels (feelings = facts) he is powerless about his own destiny and mail reminds him of when his mom handled everything and never made him learn how.  I handle most things because I've learned he will procrastinate and never pay bills or turn things in if left to him - I'd rather just do it than be called a  nag. 

Also, your W is telling you she "can't trust you".  I believe her full sentiment is likely "I can't trust you to fix my feelings for me and make life so I won't ever have to face feeling alone, uncertain, unsafe, scared, lonely, or sad."  BPD makes them feel turbulent emotions based on triggers we may never fully realize.  I've had H freak out when a scent or phrase on TV have reminded him of a past experience and he remembered being mad then. 

Your W is emotionally disabled.  Realize this, and look at it like she has a physical disability and see if that helps you a little when dealing with your own feelings of hurt and confusion about her words and actions.  She is reacting like an animal in a trap, she is lashing out at you trying to make YOU feel HER pain so she can process it.  That seems, to me at least, to be a BIG part of BPD.  The pain must be shared - they never learned to deal with it on their own, internally, or in any way that is even remotely healthy.  I can't get mad t H for not being physically able to help with yard work when his diabetic neuropathy makes his leg not function well.  So likewise, I need to be better about managing how upset I get when his emotions don't work so well, either.  We are supposedly more emotionally mature and aware than our spouses.  They CAN learn, but we have use our own tools to get ourselves to a place we can teach.

Very little of the actual emotions are about you, your actions, or anything you've done.  So, you can take some private solace in knowing this, and refuse to accept the jabs she throws.  This is an internal process.  It's a kind of boundary.  I will accept as little as possible of the hurt thrown at me.  It's not mine, I did not cause it, I cannot fix it, I do not own it. 

Our spouses will fixate on something about you so they have an excuse to vent their emotions.  H revealed to me he cannot process anger without yelling AT someone.  It did not have to be anger they caused.  Rain ruins his plans?  I get yelled at for the trash not going out, for smiling too much, or "staring" at him.  He has to find an excuse to yell, to blame me, because he cannot deal well with how he feels and having a "safe" target helps him.

Your W has determined you are to blame for her feelings.  You are not, but you can't convince her of that.  You can validate that you know she feels poorly without owning or even addressing her accusations.  "I'd feel bad if I felt I could not trust you."  "That must feel bad, feeling like that". 

She thinks you are going to abandon her.  Classic BPD fear.  In her mind, you MUST be setting up insurance and a life to prepare to leave her.  She cannot see that her own action are the only reason you would even entertain that idea.  She is looking for justification for her irrational fear, so she can feel justified in having it. 

[Chosen]

Hi walkinthepark,

I'm responding to your very first post in the thread.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to deflect the question, because we've all been there: we know a trick question when we hear one, there's no way to answer it without angering our pwBPDs (no matter how you word it, she WILL pick on that one word and twist your meaning.  Trust me, I know), and on some days we're just not emotionally ready to deal with all this drama.

For example, my uBPDh would sometimes say to me, "I'm depressed".  You'd think it'll be a good start to talk about dealing with emotions, anger and how to find a healthier outlet to express himself (I don't think he's like clinically depressed; he just bottles up his emotions to the point he can't take it, then he would explode and blame everybody else for it, then the whole cycle sort of repeats).  But it's not- he's not trying to look for a solution.  If you agree with him, he will then say it's you/ xyz which makes him depressed, if everybody'd just change, then he'll be ok.  Or he likes to ask me "Name one thing about me which you don't like".  This is a top trick question.  I can't really answer honestly, right?  And there's no point- it's not like he really wants to know the answer and "improve" himself, so to speak.  So in these situations I deflect the question or answer something in a joking manner. 

I don't know if that's the most appropriate response, but perhaps at this point in time, I don't have the emotional intelligence to tackle anything more.