A new relationship. Red flags/ Green flags?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My history. 15 year marriage to a dBPD/NPD ex (2 years divorced) and dating again.

It's confusing for me. I don't have a healthy reference relationship. People are not perfect and we all have traits of one thing or another. Some potential green/red flags I'm observing with someone I'm dating

Green
- She is open, and its mutually agreed that neither of us wants a high conflict relationship (having both come from one), and if it should become one, we will end it.
- She is willing to negotiate through disagreements without becoming abusive
- She is self aware and proactively suggests ways to improve.
- She paid for and stuck with 2 years of weekly therapy following her past breakup to examine her challenges and recover.
- We laugh together and have a genuine friendship.
- She is kind and generous to me and to others

Red
- Is not friends with any previous ex's
- History of a 6 year, high conflict relationship with last ex. Ended 3 years ago.
- Mom is a Narcissist. Family generally dysfunctional
- Tendency to be bossy
- Clams up when a painful emotional memory is triggered. Would prefer to leave past hurts rather than open them up.
- Lost her control and shouted at me when she perceived I had done something wrong. This was 3 months ago. I did a strong boundary defence - she has not repeated the behaviour since.
- Concern that she is mirroring me in terms of recovery talk and effort. I'm not sure if she is, or I'm being paranoid (This is a big one for me. I am susceptible - My ex mirrored me hook line and sinker 16 years ago and I'm desperate not for it to happen again)

Whew, I feel like I'm navigating uncharted waters here with no North Star as a reference.

My goal is a healthy relationship, what can I accept as red flags and green flags? What are the show stopper red flags for you? Any other thoughts?
 

[Moselle]

My history. 15 year marriage to a dBPD/NPD ex (2 years divorced) and dating again.

It's confusing for me. I don't have a healthy reference relationship. People are not perfect and we all have traits of one thing or another. Some potential green/red flags I'm observing with someone I'm dating

Green
- She is open, and its mutually agreed that neither of us wants a high conflict relationship (having both come from one), and if it should become one, we will end it.
- She is willing to negotiate through disagreements without becoming abusive
- She is self aware and proactively suggests ways to improve.
- She paid for and stuck with 2 years of weekly therapy following her past breakup to examine her challenges and recover.
- We laugh together and have a genuine friendship.
- She is kind and generous to me and to others

Red
- Is not friends with any previous ex's
- History of a 6 year, high conflict relationship with last ex. Ended 3 years ago.
- Mom is a Narcissist. Family generally dysfunctional
- Tendency to be bossy
- Clams up when a painful emotional memory is triggered. Would prefer to leave past hurts rather than open them up.
- Lost her control and shouted at me when she perceived I had done something wrong. This was 3 months ago. I did a strong boundary defence - she has not repeated the behaviour since.
- Concern that she is mirroring me in terms of recovery talk and effort. I'm not sure if she is, or I'm being paranoid (This is a big one for me. I am susceptible - My ex mirrored me hook line and sinker 16 years ago and I'm desperate not for it to happen again)

Whew, I feel like I'm navigating uncharted waters here with no North Star as a reference.

My goal is a healthy relationship, what can I accept as red flags and green flags? What are the show stopper red flags for you? Any other thoughts?
 

[once removed]

My goal is a healthy relationship

i would look at:in what ways are you compatible? in what ways might not you be?

[Moselle]

Thanks once.

If I look at it that way, we have a similar education level, similar spiritual outlook, physically attracted and a similar ambition level for careers.

So with that lens it looks a bit more favorable.

I realise that before my BPD "enlightenment", I looked at relationships very differently. I am now aware of so many more dynamics, I'm comfortable that I can leave if it gets dysfunctional, and grow into it, if it turns in a loving direction. I'm not too caught up about it.

I saw that the dating board is relocating here. Is it ok to post here already on dating?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Moselle, Having gone through the BPD wringer, what are you looking for in a r/s?  What are the important qualities that you are seeking in any SO?  I think it's easier to find the right person if you first identify your top priorities.  Everyone, of course, has green and red flags.  There's no magic formula; it all depends on who is right for you.  One last piece of advice: suggest you let your new r/s unfold naturally.

LuckyJim

[livednlearned]

I don't have a healthy reference relationship. People are not perfect and we all have traits of one thing or another.

It can be really nerve-wracking to date when you aren't sure what the healthy relationship references are.  

Could that be partly why you're ok with things being LD?

LDs can feel safe, which is different than healthy.

It's easier to perform emotionally healthy behaviors when you have a built-in boundary like long distance. You also get to be more emotionally intense, because going back to your safety zone is always there.

It's understandable for people like us that we like these kinds of arrangements. I wonder if it's really possible to know what you're getting into when you can't see most of the whole picture? And recovering from the kind of abuse you've experienced, is that a risk you're willing to take?

It might be, I'm not saying walk away or anything.

It does seem like a lot of high stakes are in play for the two of you, adding to the intensity so early in the r/s.

[SummerStorm]

In terms of the red flag regarding her not being friends with exes, this could be looked at in a variety of ways.  My BPD friend (or former friend... .whatever) tries to be "besties" with her exes, literally the day after she breaks up with them.  It's one thing to be friendly, especially if the break up was mutual.  Personally, I would be happier if I were dating someone who didn't stay friends with exes.  Of course, I guess it comes down to how you define friends.  Being cordial, wishing the person a happy birthday, etc. is friendly.  Going places with the person, talking to him or her all the time, etc. would make me wonder if my partner was still hung up on the ex and trying to rekindle. 

On the flip side, I would be concerned if I was dating someone who trashed all of his or her exes. 

These days, it's hard to enough for people to schedule time with family and friends, so it's not overly concerning if exes part ways and don't talk ever again, especially if they don't have a lot of mutual friends.

[once removed]

I saw that the dating board is relocating here. Is it ok to post here already on dating?

yep. encouraged!

I realise that before my BPD "enlightenment", I looked at relationships very differently. I amnow aware of so many more dynamics, I'm comfortable that I can leave if it gets dysfunctional, and grow into it, if it turns in a loving direction. I'm not too caught up about it.

as you said, it can be difficult navigating without a healthy reference. i think its important to think in terms of "what i do want in a partner and what i dont want in a partner". if you read giant lists of "red flags" on the internet, most of them are pretty subjective; you cant necessarily learn what you dont want in a partner by reading what others tell you to avoid in a partner.

ill give you a couple of my personal "what i dont want in a partner" for example.

- sharing too much too soon tends to be indicative of poor boundaries. what constitutes "too much too soon" for me might be different for you. after all, the goal in dating is to learn about each other, see where you are compatible, and you cant do that without sharing, right?

- an unresolved previous relationship is a big one for me. in every case, my partner has wound up either leaving me for that person, or they have tended to be "brought into the room" so to speak, in a way that threatens the stability of the relationship. this has a very specific meaning to me, that wont mean the same to everyone. does an unresolved previous relationship include being friends with an ex? it might, it might not. does it include someone coming out of a traumatic relationship? it might, it might not.

trial and error is a huge part of finding out what you do and dont want in a partner. maybe something isnt a "red flag", its just not a dynamic that clicks with you or works for you.

and sort of piggybacking on what livednlearned said, familiar or safe isnt necessarily the same thing as healthy. for example, a lot of us here had some difficult, even traumatizing childhood/family dynamics, as did our exes. a lot of us bonded over this and felt closer to our partners, and both parties felt they understood each other. is a potential partner with this background inherently a bad match or a red flag? not at all. is bonding over it inherently a bad idea? not at all. compatibility really depends on how these wounds have been addressed by both parties, and where they are now in terms of their emotional maturity, and even that is a vague statement.

i dont have a lot to go on, but i see nothing you indicate that says "bad idea". youve laid some groundwork for communication, and thats good. i see some stylistic differences, like you mention she clams up when emotionally triggered and would prefer not to open up. red flag? no. is it something you can accept and work with?

the thing about mirroring is that it too, is not inherently bad, in fact it is a catalyst for bonding. developmentally, it is necessary for a child to receive mirroring, as it is part of what results in a sense of self. if i laugh at your joke, i am mirroring you. if i meet your eyes to let you know im listening, if i nod my head in response, i am mirroring you. if you are surrounded by loving friends and family who are patting your back, supporting you, telling you youre a good person, they are mirroring you. i can tell you that my ex mirroring me wasnt the problem - she was a very supportive girlfriend. my emotional need to be mirrored, understood, appreciated, was what was part of my attraction, and a big part of the pain in her rejection/breaking up with me.

in other words, i think a key to healthy dating is not to be governed by fear, but governed by confidence. confidence in yourself, confidence in what you want in a partner, confidence that you deserve it, confidence to walk away when need be.

I'm comfortable that I can leave if it gets dysfunctional, and grow into it, if it turns in a loving direction. I'm not too caught up about it.

and i think that is the right direction 

[Panda39]

I did an exercise that helped me figure out what I wanted in a partner and what my deal breakers were after my divorce but before I started dating.

Write down 100 qualities you are looking for in a mate. (It's harder than you might think)  Then look at the list what are your top 5 "must have" qualities... .if those are missing in a potential partner it's a deal breaker.

So I wanted someone who loves to go bowling, but not being a bowler was not a deal breaker for me.

Sober (I was married to an alcoholic) was a must have for me. My current partner is not an alcoholic but has alcoholic family members so he understands where I was coming from in terms of alcohol.

Someone handy around the house like Tommy Silva on "This Old House" would have been great, but again not a deal breaker.

Honesty was a must have for me... .As a side note my SO was very open and honest on our first date, even told me about his ex (even though I didn't really understand the situation until later).  We shared a lot of information that might be considered over sharing.  But I needed him to be open and honest, if he had been cagey I would have felt he was hiding something.

Anyway, take the time to really think about the qualities you are looking for in someone that match your needs, personality and values. 

Love what once removed said here... .

"... .I think a key to healthy dating is not to be governed by fear, but governed by confidence. confidence in yourself, confidence in what you want in a partner, confidence that you deserve it, confidence to walk away when need be."

Panda39

[Moselle]

I found this.

I am desperate not to fall down this hole again.

“I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost... .I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But, it isn't my fault.
It still takes me a long time to get out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault. I get out immediately.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

I walk down another street.”

[Skip]

Here's the book... .

There's a Hole in My Sidewalk Author: Portia Nelson Publisher: Atria Books (1997) Paperback: 144 pages ISBN-10: 1582703779 ISBN-13: 978-1582703770

[Skip]

Here's the book... .

There's a Hole in My Sidewalk Author: Portia Nelson Publisher: Atria Books (1997) Paperback: 144 pages ISBN-10: 1582703779 ISBN-13: 978-1582703770

Love what once removed said here... .

"... .I think a key to healthy dating is not to be governed by fear, but governed by confidence. confidence in yourself, confidence in what you want in a partner, confidence that you deserve it, confidence to walk away when need be."

I agree with Panda39.

I feel like I'm navigating uncharted waters here with no North Star as a reference.

I feel this from you, also.  This is more about you, than her.

I just bought a car. I have a strong mindset for which manufacturers make quality cars. I compared several cars very carefully. My final decision was largely determined by superficial things... .the suspension, the seats and their color, and the side windows.

Sounds weird, doesn't it?

So does your list regarding your dating partner.  

What I think you list is missing and why I think you feel you have no North Star  is because you lack the "strong mindset for quality person". Your caught up in the somewhat superficial things... .tendency to be bossy is not a deal breaker and "willing to negotiate through disagreements without becoming abusive" is not much of an attribute.

What is a quality person to you? What are the values (remember this is the basis of boundaries) that you need your partner to have? I'm not thinking its 100 items, but rather a few.

From there, you can start exploring style preferences.

Not knowing this value question has you fearful because you feel you have no compass.

[drained1996]

My suggestion is, trust your eyes, trust you and your heart.  More than fairly certain you would know if you've fallen into the hole again... .and you won't be that deep.  Trusting yourself is your North Star... .your compass.  I think your compass is just fine, it's time for you to know that as well.  Trust YOU.   It'll work, or it won't... .and you'll be just fine either way.  Let what happens come organically.  That's my 2 cents

[Moselle]

Thank you all for your comments

This is where I want to be:

"I think a key to healthy dating is not to be governed by fear, but governed by confidence. confidence in yourself, confidence in what you want in a partner, confidence that you deserve it, confidence to walk away when need be."

This is where I am:

What is a quality person to you? What are the values (remember this is the basis of boundaries) that you need your partner to have? I'm not thinking its 100 items, but rather a few. Not knowing this value question has you fearful because you feel you have no compass.

There is a real gap in confidence and I'm not sure I have a simple way to get to where I want to be. I'm challenging and reshaping my own internal values and its taking time.

If I can choose values which I want in myself and in a partner, they would be:

- A family person. Family comes first.
- Lighthearted and fun.
- Disciplined, focused and a strong professional approach to career and life.
- Willing to grow and learn
- Affectionate and kind

Interestingly, she is all of these things.

I spent 10 days with her and got back on Saturday. They were very pleasant and I was sad to leave, but happy to get home. As LnL says below, I am much more comfortable with a Long Distance Relationship. I can come back and get perspective. I do like the distance. I read somewhere that's one of the reasons we choose BPD in the first place. They give us the emotional distance we need.

I do NOT want to be enmeshed again, but I do want an intimate and loving relationship.

[Moselle]

My suggestion is, trust your eyes, trust you and your heart.  More than fairly certain you would know if you've fallen into the hole again... .and you won't be that deep.  Trusting yourself is your North Star... .your compass.  I think your compass is just fine, it's time for you to know that as well.  Trust YOU.   It'll work, or it won't... .and you'll be just fine either way.  Let what happens come organically.  That's my 2 cents

Thanks for this drained1996!

Well it's been 3 months. Things are much clearer. She definitely HAS traits of cluster B.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in. It's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault. I get out immediately.

Well I haven't gotten out yet. But I have decided to get out. I am doing it in a way  which protects me from potential damage.

Doing  my best not to be angry that I have walked the same path. I actually saw all the red flags! Yet I thought this could be different. Quite bizarre thinking that!

Going to give dating a break for a bit.

[Wolfsocks]

Moselle, I understand where you are coming from. I was stuck in an unhealthy relationship for 10 years and I was 17 when it started. I once saw a TED talk (which I can't find for the life of me) about what qualities to look for in a partner. The speaker narrowed them down to three qualities which she described as the most attractive and promising traits in a person:

1) Kindness
2) Good communication
3) Emotional stability

I used these three traits in the last few years to evaluate my relationship. At first I thought my partner was only a bit emotionally unstable and the other two were fine. Unfortunately I was wrong. She was only "nice" because she could control me and our communication was mostly me talking and her mirroring. Once I realized that she had neither of these qualities I left. I probably should already have left when I realized she didn't fulfill emotional stability... .

[Wolfsocks]

I also found this podcast episode very helpful: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/codependency-no-more-podcast/e/39456200 (Codependency No More: Relationship Attachment Model)

The model includes five elements: 1) knowledge, 2) trust, 3) reliance, 4) commitment and 5) touch.

It works like this:

1) Only trust someone you really know.
2) Only rely on someone you trust.
3) Only commit to someone you can rely on.
4) Only engage in an intimate way with someone that you are committed to and who is committed to you.

If you skip a step this can lead to unhealthy relationships with the wrong people.

[Moselle]

The model includes five elements: 1) knowledge, 2) trust, 3) reliance, 4) commitment and 5) touch.

It works like this:

1) Only trust someone you really know.
2) Only rely on someone you trust.
3) Only commit to someone you can rely on.
4) Only engage in an intimate way with someone that you are committed to and who is committed to you.

That is awesome wolfsocks. I like it very much.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Moselle,

When you say she isn't friends with her exes, does that mean they don't keep in touch, or that they have an antagonistic relationship?

I'm not friends with my exes, which means I don't really keep in touch; they aren't part of my life at the moment. That said, I have friendly feelings toward them, and if we did live near each other or had contact, I would feel warmly toward them and comfortable with it.

As others have said, I think it's good to focus on what you want. With our experiences and backgrounds here, it can take some time to know what our deeper values really are, and to know that it's absolutely okay for us to expect and demand certain things from a relationship.

Being in a relationship is the fastest way I know to get clear on what is important to you (and what you don't want as well), so you are in a great position to learn so much about yourself.  

When she shouted at you, it may have been how she learned to deal with conflict. The fact that she hasn't since looks like she is willing to learn new ways to respond. That is a positive thing, in my view. I commend you for checking in with yourself along the way, and asking for support here. Learning to trust that we can change and make better decisions in our lives doesn't appear overnight.

heartandwhole

[Moselle]

Hi H&W. Thanks so much for your notes!

When you say she isn't friends with her exes, does that mean they don't keep in touch, or that they have an antagonistic relationship?

I'm not friends with my exes, which means I don't really keep in touch; they aren't part of my life at the moment. That said, I have friendly feelings toward them, and if we did live near each other or had contact, I would feel warmly toward them and comfortable with it.

She's antagonistic. She isn't able to describe any positive aspects they brought. She has split them all black, and beats her self up for ALL the bad decisions she has made (ie being those relationships)

Yesterday, she said she has cut a friend out of her life who told her that she had driven off her last boyfriend. The picture is bigger than that, this friend was behaving like an ass, but this was mentioned, and I think she does subconsciously do this by becoming hurtful to someone she "loves". I'm feeling pushed by it.

As others have said, I think it's good to focus on what you want. With our experiences and backgrounds here, it can take some time to know what are deeper values really are, and to know that it's absolutely okay for us to expect and demand certain things from a relationship.

Being in a relationship is the fastest way I know to get clear on what is important to you (and what you don't want as well), so you are in a great position to learn so much about yourself.  

Yes this is awesome. I don't want someone who is unstable emotionally. I seem to revert to caretaking and helping them deal with their issues - and I just don't want that in my life, I don't need that anymore.

She is currently in an almighty fight with her FOO. I just don't want to deal with adult children. I have NO appetite for this

When she shouted at you, it may have been how she learned to deal with conflict. The fact that she hasn't since looks like she is willing to learn new ways to respond. That is a positive thing, in my view. I commend you for checking in with yourself along the way, and asking for support here. Learning to trust that we can change and make better decisions in our lives doesn't appear overnight.

She continues to hurt me when she is dysregulated, by blaming for things I haven't done, and complete fabrications (which she recognises), probably 7 or 8 times now (roughly once or twice per month). She unloads on me, blames, has circular arguments, when she becomes flooded or dysregulates. I have said its not OK, but she seems unable to manage it or stop. BPD traits, though she does come back afterwards and apologises which is very different to my ex, who never apologised.

To her credit, she recognises this, and recently said "I'm not her therapist". She promised to seek out therapy because she felt so bad about hurting me. I do boundary defense, and exit, but it erodes my ability to trust her. She has NOT gone to therapy to date and I'm just not interested in following up on it. - its not my business

Look she in an awesome person and in so many ways meets what I want in a spouse, but after 5 months the true aspects of her personality are coming out. She feels badly about it and recently said "I wish I could transplant my personality". I like her positive aspects, but I'm not willing to take the risk with someone who could potentially explode in my future and smear campaigns etc. Noo!

I don't want to confuse my children either, by getting into another relationship which needs significant therapy before we even start. If she dysregulates with me, she will dysregulate with them when I'm not there.

I am not intending to reverse out completely because I like her in many ways, but I'm happy to be a friend, and not a romantic companion. I have been completely honest with her and she seems ok with this at present, however I wonder if its just words, believing that I will change my mind. I will NOT. If she goes to therapy and shows significant improvement without me asking for it, I might consider elevating the relationship. If she is significantly dysfunctional, it will not meet her narcissistic or covert BPD needs and she will exit on her own accord.

[Moselle]

If you skip a step this can lead to unhealthy relationships with the wrong people.

Wolf, this is an interesting phenomenon. When a codependent and a Cluster B meet, it feels like coming home. Both sides become enmeshed for different reasons.

- The codep feels their low self esteem built up by the idealization phase which feels amazing from someone who might never had received compliments like this before. All of a sudden receiving all these compliments (love bombing) feels like something they have always been waiting for.

- The Cluster B receives acceptance, rescuing - knight or knightess in shining armour, and care from the codep. Someone who accepts them for who they are (in their own mind - seriously dysfunctional). And here is the most important part - will accept becoming the emotional crutch, venting target for their intense emotions which take them over from time to time.

I believe recovery, healing, building our self esteem/ self image and treating ourselves kindly is the best way to become the healthy person we want to date. Thoughts?

[valet]

Does the good outweigh the bad?

Do you feel comfortable with yourself around this person?

[Wolfsocks]

- The codep feels their low self esteem built up by the idealization phase which feels amazing from someone who might never had received compliments like this before. All of a sudden receiving all these compliments (love bombing) feels like something they have always been waiting for.

I agree with your observations, Moselle. I had a very low self esteem when I met my future (and now former) partner - (I was 17... .). Before meeting her I thought nobody would ever be romantically attracted to me. And along she came. In retrospect I think she wasn't even specifically interested in me. She flirted with all her friends but I was the only one who got hooked. During the harmonious phases of our relationships she idealized me and of course I was very flattered.

- The Cluster B receives acceptance, rescuing - knight or knightess in shining armour, and care from the codep. Someone who accepts them for who they are (in their own mind - seriously dysfunctional). And here is the most important part - will accept becoming the emotional crutch, venting target for their intense emotions which take them over from time to time.

This also applied to me. Unfortunately my parents fought a lot during my childhood and my attempts to mediate between them or regulate their emotions were mostly in vain. So I was desperate for someone I could fix (finally!). Someone I could rescue. But instead I put myself in another hopeless situation with someone who couldn't be fixed - thus repeating my childhood situation.

I believe recovery, healing, building our self esteem/ self image and treating ourselves kindly is the best way to become the healthy person we want to date. Thoughts?

I agree. I read about dating advice somewhere that goes like this: First imagine the person you want to date (for example: a creative, kind, smart and physically active person). Then try to put yourself in the shoes of this theoretical person and ask yourself: Who do I have to become to attract a person like this? And usually the person we would like to attract won't be attracted to beaten-up codependents with low self-esteem.

So yes: Imho the best way to find a great partner is to first find the best version of ourselves.

[byfaith]

What I think you list is missing and why I think you feel you have no North Star  is because you lack the "strong mindset for quality person". Your caught up in the somewhat superficial things... .tendency to be bossy is not a deal breaker and "willing to negotiate through disagreements without becoming abusive" is not much of an attribute.

why would "willing to negotiate through disagreements without becoming abusive" not be much of an attribute?

IMO not becoming abusive during a disagreement is a sign of self control and respect for the other person. This is an attribute that I have found in someone I am dating that I do enjoy because I can discuss things with her without being degraded like I am sub-human

Thanks
BF