Should it be easy for us to cut contact? Is that a healthy person?

[Husband321]

Let's say as a single guy you cross paths with Adriana Lima. (Or insert any beautiful woman)

You totally hit it off.  She is well spoken.  :)oesn't come on too strong. Yet is very interested.

You see each other more and more, get closer and closer.  Now how many guys at this point are going to be running for the hills?

As time goes by she meets your child and is wonderful with him/her. She talks of moving in. How much she loves your kid etc. so far so good.

Then, at the point , things change.  Once emotionally invested. She can be irritable but blame period. Angry but blame your words. Sad and blame her past or childhood. Starts to have phantom illnesses. Starts to disappear but later says because they are scared and so in love. Always has the right answers.  These things progress slowly.

So at this point how many of us run?  Or learn an entire new language to communicate? Or do we stick it out and SLOWLY deteriorate over time.

If we stick it out, are we disordered?  Or is their behavior our fault for not communicating correctly?

Should it be easy for us to cut contact? Is that a healthy person?  Or could we be truly disordered and sociopathic if we did NOT miss them on different levels?

[Perdita]

Things happen so gradually in a relationship with a bp person. That's why it's hard to cut contact. If they were horrid from the start it would be much easier.  We are emotionally attached and invested by the time we realise what's really going on.

I don't believe their behaviour is our fault. It's hard to communicate with them like mature adults.

[gotbushels]

Lol Adriana Lima.   

Should it be easy for us to cut contact? Is that a healthy person?  Or could we be truly disordered and sociopathic if we did NOT miss them on different levels?

I think people expect reducing contact to be difficult, maybe even more for these relationships because of enmeshment.

I think both healthy and unhealthy people can deny or process a situation.

Yes--people could have strong disorder traits if they did not experience missing the partner. The same could be said for those that do miss them.


It's often very hard for many of us to go through these breakups.

I don't believe their behaviour is our fault. It's hard to communicate with them like mature adults.

Yes. The pwBPD's condition existed before the non's intimate relationship with the pwBPD. At the same time, a dialogue between a non and pwBPD has two contributors. Yes, sometimes communicating with a pwBPD as a partner can feel like dealing with a child.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Husband321,

Like an estimated 28% of the population at any given time, we "nons" might exhibit mental health problems, ranging from mood disorders like depression, anxiety, to (much rarer) OCD, NPD, BPD/traits and anything in between. Or we can be like the other 72% "normal" folk who still have psychological issues to deal with.

After watching the Blaise Aguirre video on this site, I was very struck by how he described people with BPD as having a skills deficit. I think that is a very instructive way of looking at it. I know that when we are deeply in love and then chaos seems to come out of nowhere, we are so emotionally "in" that looking objectively at the behaviors as a "skills deficit" probably isn't possible. But hindsight can be very helpful.

I think many of us here might also have some skills deficits when it comes to handling unhealthy relationship dynamics. We've learned to cope in ways that were helpful as dependent children, but really not helpful as independent, responsible adults. We don't see the train wreck coming because we are not expecting it, or we ignore signs that things aren't going to go well. Just like anyone might.

The difference, I think, is that once we are emotionally invested, many of us stay longer in these kinds of relationships because our threshold for unacceptable behavior is different/higher than others, i.e., another person might end the relationship the first or second time a blow-out/cheating/threat/accusation happens, whereas it could take some of us a lot longer to say "enough," even if we stay in the relationship. Our FOOs trained us to cope in certain ways. The good news is that we can learn new coping skills.

In my experience, it's very hard to let go of someone you love. And I think many of us have hope that things will return to how they were. So, all that to say that I don't think we are necessarily disordered to stay in relationships like these. I do think there is a lot to learn from them, though. And it's a very hard lesson sometimes.

What do you think kept you from running?

heartandwhole

[Shedd]

My doctor once told me all of us have some kind of mental disorder.  Most just don't know they have one.

[babyducks]

Hi Husband321

If we stick it out, are we disordered?  Or is their behavior our fault for not communicating correctly?

Should it be easy for us to cut contact? Is that a healthy person?  Or could we be truly disordered and sociopathic if we did NOT miss them on different levels?

Sure, some of us are disordered.   Some of us are depressive, some of us are codependent.   The classic pairing that you read about a lot is a BPD person with a NPD person.   Some of us are emotionally immature.   Some of us are really confused.    Some are trained from childhood to be caretakers of emotionally fragile individuals.

I think you might find the answers you are looking for in the idea that all disorders exist on a spectrum.   These relationships are not binary, all one way and nothing of another,   all bad with no good,   all one person's fault,  all black and no white.

There is a lot of complexity embedded in intense intimate relationships.   a lot of subtle nuance.   

my experience seems to have been the polar opposite of yours.   my ex was in treatment, making progress, compliant with medication, did so well she was released from therapy.   she was diagnosed bipolar 1 comorbid with BPD.    our relationship collapsed when her bipolar relapsed due to medication problems just as my mother was dying.    way too much stress there for the both of us.

I do miss her even as I accept that it is not in my psychological or emotional best interests to engage with her.

My doctor once told me all of us have some kind of mental disorder.  Most just don't know they have one.

All of us are some where on the spectrum.   all of us drift around on the spectrum driven by life's events.

what made you pose the question Husband321, are you missing your ex?


'ducks

[Feelinstronger]

You ask a really valid question.  Ive spent nearly 7 years in a relationship w a BPD man who has discarded me countless times.  All the times I have engaged in therapy to try to figure HIM out.  Now, I found a new therapist to figure out what MY issues are since I choose to continue to subject myself to all the poor treatment.  I purposefully go into each session trying to get to new layers of self discovery because I realized I MUST change to get out of the damaging cycle.  SO, like a few other responders, I believe that many of us nons have issues of our own.  I have known I was too nice, too accomodating, my entire adult life. But there is so much more to dig into.

PLease take some time to explore the person YOU are and investigate how you might be able to stop yourself from this type of hurt on a repeated basis.  WIshing you lots of success.

[Husband321]

You ask a really valid question.  Ive spent nearly 7 years in a relationship w a BPD man who has discarded me countless times.  All the times I have engaged in therapy to try to figure HIM out.  Now, I found a new therapist to figure out what MY issues are since I choose to continue to subject myself to all the poor treatment.  I purposefully go into each session trying to get to new layers of self discovery because I realized I MUST change to get out of the damaging cycle.  SO, like a few other responders, I believe that many of us nons have issues of our own.  I have known I was too nice, too accomodating, my entire adult life. But there is so much more to dig into.

PLease take some time to explore the person YOU are and investigate how you might be able to stop yourself from this type of hurt on a repeated basis.  WIshing you lots of success.

Well you just kind of wonder how to go through life moving forward... .

Do we become overly skeptical of every future woman we meet?  :)o we "change ourselves"?

Part of my thinks

A. This woman was ruining my life.   Very bad for me. While I cannot go back to her, there is still pain from such an ordeal.  Is that pain more or less normal?  I kind of feel it is, yet it is not logical.

B. She even described herself as a sociopath near the end. Yet she  never would have a shortage of successful outwardly well balanced men who actually want a relationship with her. So is it that the men she runs across are just unfortunate and up against a master manipulator? All of us saw the red flags, but somehow overlooked them. Like the emotions she invokes in a guy are so overwhelming that we would mentally make excuses for the state of her life and believe it could not possibly be her fault.

Is that more or less "being a guy"?  A guy who is just unlucky to cross paths with her? Or are all of us somehow emotionally not well and in need of help for becoming involved with this woman?

[Skip]

If we stick it out, are we disordered?  

Is their behavior our fault for not communicating correctly?

Should it be easy for us to cut contact? Is that a healthy person?  

Would we be truly disordered and sociopathic if we did NOT miss them on different levels?

Husband321, this is an advanced board, and an advanced answer would be that these concepts - disordered, fault, healthy person, sociopathic - are extreme states and biased questions that are hard to answer in a meaningful way. Certainly "yes" or "no" to any of  these would be not be helpful.

In your scenario, where the partner was completely stealth for many years (which is unlikely) and the relationship was bliss, and then then it went bad... .

If we stick it out, are we disordered?
It really depends what we are "sticking out", for how long, and how much we contribute to it... .its a scale. Does this suggest we are broken in some way? This would be a function of how many years in out life we have lived in troubled relationships. Does this suggest that we have one specific disorder in the DSM? It could suggest a lot of things... .nothing, immaturity, low self esteem, unrealistic expectations, ego, poor interpersonal skills, attachment issues, etc. There is no "one size fits all" here.

Is their behavior our fault for not communicating correctly?
Same type of answer... .

Should it be easy for us to cut contact? Is that a healthy person?
Same type of answer... .

Would we be truly disordered and sociopathic if we did NOT miss them on different levels?
Same type of answer... .

An important part of healing is asking ourselves good questions... . 

[Skip]

So is it that the men she runs across are just unfortunate and up against a master manipulator? ... //... Is that more or less "being a guy"?  A guy who is just unlucky to cross paths with her? Or are all of us somehow emotionally not well and in need of help for becoming involved with this woman?

I thought this is where you were going... .

Husband321, you have to dig a lot deeper than this to find the "truth" of your situation. We are all here to help you in that as we do the same.

In the simplest terms, any of us can be naive (or greedy) and stumble into a relationship that isn't good for us... .and hopefully we see it and learn what it means to cut our losses... .and are smarter for it.

And some of us may have self esteem, attachment, ego issues (or more complex issues) that lead us to become enmeshed in unhealthy relationships and have trouble finding our way out... .and hopefully we keep reaching for the brass ring to get on a healthy path and relook who we are in love... . and are smarter for it.

None of use are here because some master manipulator conned us. We locked onto an extremely weak immature person and became a contributing member to a very unhealthy partnership.

Good mental health is hard. We face many decisions and juncture in life where the right decision is the hardest one... .especially when we are emotionally drawn to the wrong decision.

[Husband321]

None of use are here because some master manipulator conned us. We locked onto an extremely weak immature person and became a contributing member to a very unhealthy partnership.

Well I would disagree with this.  Even if someone is BPD they can also have other illnesses as well... Sociopath. Psychopath... Different levels etc.

When you are out of the fog and can look back, and put things together, you see the pattern of love bombing, lies, manipulation, secret lives... If that isn't a master manipulator then what is?

[Skip]

When you are out of the fog and can look back, and put things together, you see the pattern of love bombing, lies, manipulation, secret lives... If that isn't a master manipulator then what is?

Your ex sold her house, put her life insurance in your name, tattooed your name on her body, and married you... .and moved out, week three. That doesn't sound like manipulation. She jumped in, all in (divested her life), and jumped out in under 500 hours into nothingness. She certainly didn't come out "ahead" on this if it was a scheme. Yes, she seriously messed with your life. She messed with her own, more.

She has 2 kids with her ex husband.  She left her family and moved out of state and met me on the internet.  She signed away rights to her kids.

After she met me she "fell in love". But while dating her she was going back and forth with me and her ex.  

This also doesn't sound like master manipulator. She sounds like someone who can't handle the pressures and stability of normal family life. Most likely something happened in your marriage that triggered the same feelings for why she left her first family and her babies... .freaked her.

Before she was overwhelmed by your marriage, she was overwhelmed by first one and her own babies and even sold her right to her kids away. That is someone who is really triggered, freaked out, desperate.

You totally hit it off.  She is well spoken.  :)oesn't come on too strong. Yet is very interested. You see each other more and more, get closer and closer.  As time goes by she meets your child and is wonderful with him/her. She talks of moving in. How much she loves your kid etc. so far so good. Then, at the point , things change.  Once emotionally invested... .

While we all tend to remember the best... .this probably doesn't serve as a good proxy for your marriage.  

[Husband321]

My apologies.  Some details were left out.

We married while she was  making her parenting plan with her ex.  The Mercedes was put in my name, she sold her house to not have any bills, and said she didn't have an income.  So her child support went from a possible 1500 a month to 200 a month. She bought me an engagement ring out of nowhere.

As soon as the plan was signed she left the next day. She had a large inheritance so money is not an issue. She didn't want to pay ex however

She disappeared when I went to work.  However would still come over every night. Saying how much she loved me, but needed space. Etc. then I found her on sugar daddy dating sites long after the fact.  

The manipulation lies is needing a triangle.  Cannot be secure with just one guy.  And this was going on the entire marriage and relationship.

It's hard. But when she is telling you there is now way she is seeing or talking to anyone,, then moves in with another family 3 days after being with you, hard to believe it wasn't going on for a while.

[Skip]

It's hard. But when she is telling you there is no way she is seeing or talking to anyone, then moves in with another family 3 days after being with you, hard to believe it wasn't going on for a while.

No doubt and its worth talking about this, Husband321, in another thread. Her weakness (anyone's weakness) and inability to speak difficult truths at times like this is very damaging to the other person. A lot of us have guilty of doing this... .seeing how it affects others here is hopefully a lesson for all of us. She's very weak. She'ii do it again.

Now going back to your original post... .

Think about the guy she is with now. What would you think if he posted the Adriana Lima story? He's with a women who walked away from her kids, walked away from marriage #2 and another child after 500 days, and shortly thereafter landed in his home with your name tattooed on her rear bumper... .regardless of the words shes whispers in bed, should he be surprised if she hurts him as she runs from her fears and seeks her entitlements?

No. Right? She is a hot mess and she wears it like a billboard.

Since my days with a pwBPD traits, I've done a lot of thinking to fully grasp what healthy loving really is... .I didn't have a good model in my mind for many years... .it took some doing to shift my priorities... . I have and I have a very good relationship now.

Picking a great apple is not about eliminating the rotten ones... .its about know what a good apple looks like.

[Husband321]

Yes I agree.    From the outside  I would say that guy would be pretty Naieve if he is hurt when she leaves him.

So let me ask this ... .

When she met me she obviously didn't just say "yeah I left my kids".  That would be a turn off for any guy to hear.

It was a long story.  One in which you fully believe she had to. And that she wanted her kids back. But the ex was so scary and abusive etc.  and she had no money.  And no career.  And no family to help.and she signed something by accident.  She was having seizures   Etc.

I didn't find out all the details and truth until I spoke to her ex. That's she was having affairs.  :)ropped the kids off at school to never return. And did this on several occasions.

So would you say she truly believes her own stories?  And thats how she can tell them so well?  I bumped into the new man at the store and talked to him.  He is fully believing everything she has told him as well. Going out of his way to say "I think she is a great mom".  She can be very convincing.

And you raise a good point.  What is the goal to her for all of this.  And I think it is simply to get love and attention. To never to have to be alone for even one night. She is in a full relationship before she even exits the current one.

And one day this guy will probably be saying the same. "How was she making all these promises daily, but the entire time grooming backs ups on the internet while she was with me". She can't really ever have all her eggs in one basket.  

And during our "break" she is telling me she wouldn't date for a long time. Needs to work on herself.  :)oesn't like relationships. Takes our vows seriously...  It was too soon to jump into another one  with me.  Which led me to staying with and sleeping with her up until the last moment. So to me it seems manipulative.  

But you are right.  If I ever meet another woman with some messed up child situation, and that she ended up running, that's the same thing I would do. No longer entertaining all of these stories that make some sense, but not completely.

[Skip]

And you raise a good point.  What is the goal to her for all of this.  And I think it is simply to get love and attention. To never to have to be alone for even one night. She is in a full relationship before she even exits the current one.

Well, her kids loved her... .And you loved her... .she didn't simply leave for love an attention... .it's more complicated than that and it will take some searching to figure it out. It could be that she believes the "honeymoon stage" of love is what love is all about and considers the later, less glamorous stages to be failing love... .maybe she is ashamed of her history and likes a fresh slate... .wash away the mess that her lovers eventually find out... .maybe she easily feels smothered... .engulfed... .or bored.

The lining up a next lover before completely closing out and grieving the prior relationship is the "fear of abandonment" thing... .many pwBPD traits do this to cushion any possible blow... .these things take a while to figure out. I'd try to understand why she left the first husband... .that may be the easiest thing to do a postmortem on.

Going back the original question... .Are us nons disordered? Should it be easy for us to cut contact? Is that a healthy person?

It's not easy to step away. The signs were there. Good mental health is making hard choices.

[Husband321]

Well  from speaking to her ex, and info that would slowly come out from her, she had 2 children with her ex at a young age. When she was 20 and 22. Stay at home mom until 30.

During this marriage  to her ex  he said she left him about 40 times. .  Would move in with a different man she just met.  Sometimes have an abortion then come back.   A few times move out of state.  Just up and leave her kids and husband, but then always go back.  Finally he filed for divorce,but I also found out while dating and "in love" with me, she was seeing him and telling him the same even after they were divorced.  Until he finally moved with the kids across the country.  Then she married me.

So the pattern continued with me.  Any stress she runs. Then begs to come back. I never saw her with another man, but this time I did.  Now she sends me hateful emails that I don't respond to.

its basically the same thing her mom did to her. She kept coming and going throughout her childhood.

So I think she views her ex husband and I as "bad" and smears us. But it is very hard to have a marriage where someone leaves or threatens to weekly. And I do think she always needs something "new". Routine is boring to her.  She claims that's what she wants  (she always picks guys with children that are stable), but once she gets it she is completely bored.

I would say even during our "mini breaks" she just has a different appearance and look in her eye. 100 percent no feelings whatsoever about me, my son, our marriage etc. just totally empty.  Nothing to say at all.  No tears. No anger. I don't think she even understood how hurtful this is. 


Then when she would come back just an expression of total and complete admiration and love. She would admit it was all her fault, and promise promise promise to change. And be the best wife ever etc.  this would last for about 3 weeks.  We tried tying it to her menstrual cycle. 

Then she would start with weed and alcohol.  But in the meantime also grooming new guys on the internet. 

So it was just completely out of control.

[MeandThee29]

And some of us may have self esteem, attachment, ego issues (or more complex issues) that lead us to become enmeshed in unhealthy relationships and have trouble finding our way out... .and hopefully we keep reaching for the brass ring to get on a healthy path and relook who we are in love... . and are smarter for it.

None of use are here because some master manipulator conned us. We locked onto an extremely weak immature person and became a contributing member to a very unhealthy partnership.

I was very clingy on him in early marriage. He says those were the best years of our marriage.

Then I became less and less clingy, especially when he began using verbal abuse and threats to try to control me. He said that nothing else would work me, so the ugliness was justified. I cowed to that for some time, and he felt powerful and in control.

His major criticism of me is that I didn't ever make him #1. I honestly don't know what that means. I changed jobs to spend more time together, I worked from home to spend time together, I rarely did things with my friends to spend time together, etc. etc. I was home nearly every night and all weekend with very few exceptions. Whenever I had to leave town for a family emergency, there was a fight both before and after because of the feelings of abandonment.

Then he somehow expected full love and support even after he left and says my counsellor is a waste of time because I'm still not meeting his needs.

Quite a dance isn't it? Of course now I know more, thankfully!

[Skip]

And one more, as a reminder to not throw fuel on the fire.  And blaming a house for being on fire is not very productive.

If we were healthy to begin with, we would have run away at the first sign of dysfunction and abuse. We would have seen that something big was wrong, and we would have politely excused ourselves from the relationship and not turned back.

Because we have our own mental health issues, instead, we run right into that burning building and hang around, complaining that its too hot, never considreing that we should leave the burning building or that we had control over entering in the first place. Instead, we want to stay inside and open an window to cool it off. We complain and blame the building for being on fire, and sometimes, to try to calm things down, we add little cups of gasoline of our own, just to keep it blazing! If only the building could understand that it isnt our fault it is on fire, then it might appreciate my presence and make it cooler in there.

Its just that crazy.

The relationships can become addictive, to our detriment.

You may want to join this conversation... .it is someone looking at this type of thing with a different, but extreme, model.