In retrospect, Shouldn't the only focus be getting them help?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I was watching a series of videos of a woman who explained her BPD, but who has recovered through therapy.

It was almost exactly like my ex wife.  There really was no way for her to be in a relationship with anyone as she thinks about how she used to be.

I looked back on my relationship this past week, and it has been tough.  Almost like losing something that had derailed all of my bodily functions. I had anxiety.  No sleep.  No food.  Etc.  But just one week of no contact has made me see things clearer.

Similar to the woman on YouTube, there was no way I could have made my wife into a suitable partner, as she is, just with some words, style of communicating, actions etc.   Unless she wanted to change herself and get therapy.  Or talk to someone.

Weed, alcohol, raging, threats , disappearing, no goals, no focus, gas lighting, passive aggressive,lies,  impulsive. Etc.

Even if things were "good" it would be problems with my house. My ex.  My son. Her ex. Her family. The fact that I don't like onions. I had baby furniture in my basement that belonged to my son.  I mean I could go on and on. Any little thing could be a trigger. An expression I made.  A joke I made.

Looking back it wa daily chaos even during good times. It seemed impossible to ever reach security and stability no matter how good our fortunes were.  We were healthy. Amazing sex. Plenty of money.  Fit. All the options in the world available to us.

Has anyone actually had a successful, fulfilling, and happy  long term relationship with a BPD female just by changing themselves?

[Husband321]

I was watching a series of videos of a woman who explained her BPD, but who has recovered through therapy.

It was almost exactly like my ex wife.  There really was no way for her to be in a relationship with anyone as she thinks about how she used to be.

I looked back on my relationship this past week, and it has been tough.  Almost like losing something that had derailed all of my bodily functions. I had anxiety.  No sleep.  No food.  Etc.  But just one week of no contact has made me see things clearer.

Similar to the woman on YouTube, there was no way I could have made my wife into a suitable partner, as she is, just with some words, style of communicating, actions etc.   Unless she wanted to change herself and get therapy.  Or talk to someone.

Weed, alcohol, raging, threats , disappearing, no goals, no focus, gas lighting, passive aggressive,lies,  impulsive. Etc.

Even if things were "good" it would be problems with my house. My ex.  My son. Her ex. Her family. The fact that I don't like onions. I had baby furniture in my basement that belonged to my son.  I mean I could go on and on. Any little thing could be a trigger. An expression I made.  A joke I made.

Looking back it wa daily chaos even during good times. It seemed impossible to ever reach security and stability no matter how good our fortunes were.  We were healthy. Amazing sex. Plenty of money.  Fit. All the options in the world available to us.

Has anyone actually had a successful, fulfilling, and happy  long term relationship with a BPD female just by changing themselves?

[Pretty Woman]

I think if we were able to magically change ourselves we would run from these relationships. We would not be attracted to broken people who treat us badly.

Many of these relationships are very co-dependent. Even if we are not diagnosed BPD's "like attracts like" and when you have two broken people meshing, familiarity breeds contempt and it's usually passionately explosive, but also explosive in other ways.

You cannot fix someone who does not want to be fixed or whom does not think there is anything wrong with them. My ex would go to therapy, but only to win me back after I was left for someone else, or raged at. There were no apologies, everything was MY fault and I was the reason she was going to therapy. I should be so lucky to have this cheating girlfriend who was willing to go to therapy to "save us".

Ha.

So I see where you are coming from but you have no control over your ex. You did the best you could with the resources you had at that time. Now, you need to figure out why you stayed as long as you did. Why you were attracted to someone who didn't treat you well. I guarantee the more you delve into yourself the more you will begin to see things differently, your role in the relationship. You will make better, healthier choices and eventually stop resenting your ex and how things turned out.

 

[ponco]

In my experience with my uBPDw which I have been with for nearly 8 years and married for 2, it's impossible help her. They will lie (or convince themselves) that they are better and nothing needs to be done.

Then they will convince you that they are better, but they are really just pretending and putting up a front while they just keep accumulating their hatred and frustration for a later time and then all hell breaks loose and every single small "bad" thing that you did will be brought back to you in the worst possible way.

You will be completely perplexed at how it was all a lie (again) and she never really changed one bit.

[40days_in_desert]

I agree with all said here. Nope, it couldn’t work even if I had started to work on myself and she didn’t. It would’ve ended as I came out of the FOG and saw what was really going on back then.
She still says it was all me. Matter of fact, she contacted a good friend of mine recently that she doesn’t know but knows about. Ex contacted her through Messenger on FB. My ex told my friend that I’m a “Narcissistic gas lighting psychopath”.

[Husband321]

My wife KNEW she needed help.  She would tell me she thought she is a sociopath with BPD.  But still, for her, it is easier to jump to a new man, and convince her single toxic mom and sister I am the problem.

I think the sad part is she is capable of going on to hurt  more lives (she only likes single dads) , which means more children, men, extended families etc.

I bumped into the new man at Walmart.  Mid 50's guy , divorced with 2 kids under 10.  She has been telling him horror stories about me, like she told me about her first husband. I set the record straight, but I could tell he was already sucked in. 

[Stripey77]

... .I know you probably know this, but may I just gently remind you that all of these things apply to a BPD male as well? BPD is NOT exclusively a female problem, as I, and many other partners/exes of BPD men can testify to on these pages. I just wanted to point that out as you have angled your question about a 'BPD female', but it could quite probably and usefully be opened up to simply say 'a BPD partner'... .I think we've all been the same rollercoaster regardless of gender. I had never even heard of BPD until I met my ex, and believe me a man can most definitely fit all the criteria.

I hope things start to get better for you, and happy new year!

[Husband321]

... .I know you probably know this, but may I just gently remind you that all of these things apply to a BPD male as well? BPD is NOT exclusively a female problem, as I, and many other partners/exes of BPD men can testify to on these pages. I just wanted to point that out as you have angled your question about a 'BPD female', but it could quite probably and usefully be opened up to simply say 'a BPD partner'... .I think we've all been the same rollercoaster regardless of gender. I had never even heard of BPD until I met my ex, and believe me a man can most definitely fit all the criteria.

I hope things start to get better for you, and happy new year!

True.  I suppose I was asking about females, because they have a far easier time jumping to a different partner, getting sympathy from family, from the law, and all around in general. If you live in a big city there are probably tens of thousands of men who would move this woman into their house to be a "white knight" , believe her, and care for her even if just to get sex. Immediately. .   It just seems BPD men while also manipulative, still would not have all of the above options. Older women aren't lined up to take in and support a younger guy off the internet.

Back to my op.  I guess what I meant is while looking back EVERYTHiNG was caused by her BPD. And so much was overlooked as long as she wasn't leaving, or raging.

So while to put out each fire, which is endless, if they don't accept help it all seems to lead towards a disaster. 

[Pretty Woman]

Think about it... .if you were dating someone new and in the "infatuation" stage where everyone is on their
"best behavior" and someone came to you and told you a bunch of terrible things about your ex would you believe them?

Probably not.

Coupled with the fact your ex has likely put you in the "persecutor" role and this new one in the role of "rescuer" trying to convince him of anything, even with the best intentions ends up making you look crazy,
because that is how she's painted you.

You can't worry about what is going to happen to this man, his family, his heart. He is a grown adult and he will have to figure it out for himself. The only person you should be putting care to is you and YOUR heart. Once a BPD splits you black they really feel threatened. They believe you will hurt them, even if you are the sweetest soul.
They believe their own lies and perceptions.

Do not worry about your ex. She will survive, she always has. Worry about you and what you want out of life. You have a great chance to have a wonderful life and partner. Work on you, friend!

[once removed]

think of the karpman drama triangle.

when a couple goes into therapy, and either one or both of them have the attitude "shouldnt the only focus be getting them help", its not productive, resentment builds, and it fails.

we dont rehabilitate relationships by changing our partners. rehabilitating a relationship requires vulnerability, open mindedness, commitment to change from both sides. some here are not in a position where there is a commitment from both sides (in some cases not from either side), but the ones that make the commitment themselves do tend to see improvement at differing levels and in differing ways, and their partners often follow their lead; the two grow together.

[Husband321]

Ok. Trying to wrap my mind around the "both people need to change" idea.

Is it possible for an untreated BPD to become an equal partner, loving, caring, stable etc without seeking treatment based solely on my actions, expressions, and words?

Could someone live with Charles Manson and adapt their own behavior to change him into a loving, caring, sensitive man?  Not saying all BPD are like that, but if they won't seek help, is it just an exercise in futility? 

Sure.  Perhaps rages can be avoided less often if I totally spend all my time learning to communicate with them.   Or possibly less cheating.  Maybe less lying.  But could it ever be a healthy relationship?

[ponco]

Ok. Trying to wrap my mind around the "both people need to change" idea.

Is it possible for an untreated BPD to become an equal partner, loving, caring, stable etc without seeking treatment based solely on my actions, expressions, and words?

Could someone live with Charles Manson and adapt their own behavior to change him into a loving, caring, sensitive man?  Not saying all BPD are like that, but if they won't seek help, is it just an exercise in futility? 

Sure.  Perhaps rages can be avoided less often if I totally spend all my time learning to communicate with them.   Or possibly less cheating.  Maybe less lying.  But could it ever be a healthy relationship?

In my opinion, the answer is simply: NO.

Normal people very rarely change, BPD people never ever change. They might be less destructive but they will forever be a victim and you will always have to be caring for them, loving them, nurturing them, but don't expect them to do the same in return or you will be in for a rude awakening.

[SlyQQ]

I asked around before i began my relationship with a BPD and was " misguided/led"
if i was warned it would have stopped there , sigh.

Close, intimate  long term relations are toxic for someone with BPD and places them under stresses

they are not emotionally equipped for.

I have always found it telling Dr M linehan  a self professed recovered and much admired person with BPD ( see DBT)

appeared to give up on these type of relationships ( though i understand she has an adopted daughter )

[Husband321]

In my opinion, the answer is simply: NO.

Normal people very rarely change, BPD people never ever change. They might be less destructive but they will forever be a victim and you will always have to be caring for them, loving them, nurturing them, but don't expect them to do the same in return or you will be in for a rude awakening.

Yes. That's what I mean.

Without treatment for them, you could spend years helping.  Fixing. Learning a new language to communicate with them.  Watching them in pain so physically and emotionally going out of your way to make things better for them. Always surpassing hurdle after hurdle.  Addictions.  Exes.  Children. Jobs.  Rages.  The law.  

Then you "slip up " with an expression, a mood, and argument and they go on the internet and start looking for someone new as you triggered something. And all of the past is forgotten. You are just black. Smeared.  Left. Etc. and during the entire time you never really "got anything" but sex, empty promises, a body to hug.

And even when things are "good" they aren't optimal.  It got to the point where I was just happy to come home and not be yelled at.  Or happy to see she didn't disappear.  Or happy I could put my arm around her without her pulling away. Or happy if we went out and she wasn't flirting with any guy or girl in the same vicinity.

I haven't combed the site enough.  But is there a way to talk to them to get them into treatment?  

[Husband321]

This was literally the final "discard" on her end.

She has 2 kids with her ex husband.  She left her family and moved out of state and met me on the internet.  She signed away rights to her kids.

After she met me she "fell in love". But while dating her she was going back and forth with me and her ex.  Finally he moved across the country with the children. I married her. We spent two years together in courts reversing her decision so she can even see her kids. We set up our parenting plans so all of our kids can spend holidays together. She always said how she hates her ex. Etc etc.

2 weeks before Christmas she hears her ex husband, who also just remarried, is getting a divorce.

I went to work and she disappeared.  Moved out. She came back and told me she loves me, but will spend Christmas where he is to "see her kids". She told me she Heard he is getting a divorce so she will go there instead.

I said "you will fly there because he is getting a divorce?"

She went ballistic.  Moved out.  Said I don't trust her. Told me she hates her ex, and I am pathetic for assuming anything. (Even though I just repeated what she said)

Her ex husband reconsciled with his wife.  However she was still mad at me. So she met a stranger on the internet and moved in with him. Her children flew to his home, and he is the new step dad.  Even while we are still married.

All within 2 weeks.

So that's what I mean. One slip on my end, and you never know what to expect.  Constant chaos.  Instability. 

[once removed]

reading into your thread a bit, i suspect you are seeking the answer, or at least would be comforted by it, that "there was nothing you or anyone else ever could have done to make the relationship work".

the former might be true. the latter is not. ive watched marriages in the most dire of straights be completely turned around. ive seen deeply troubled children go on to lead lives i have a healthy envy for. its been amazing and inspiring for me to get to watch. but Husband321, this is about your relationship. it can be tempting to gravitate toward experiences that validate your own, but the success or failure of others dont have a lot of bearing on yours, and vice versa, and besides, the exes discussed here are all over the spectrum.

your relationship faced major challenges from the beginning; challenges that, while you remained in the relationship, you couldnt, didnt want to, accept, and thats okay. its the case for many of us. but dont lose sight of the fact that these challenges were not new to you and didnt spring up over night. you saw them early on; so did i. both of us persisted in spite of that. theres a lot to be learned from that, especially if you want to go on to healthier relationships in the future.

[Husband321]

reading into your thread a bit, i suspect you are seeking the answer, or at least would be comforted by it, that "there was nothing you or anyone else ever could have done to make the relationship work".

the former might be true. the latter is not. ive watched marriages in the most dire of straights be completely turned around. ive seen deeply troubled children go on to lead lives i have a healthy envy for. its been amazing and inspiring for me to get to watch. but Husband321, this is about your relationship. it can be tempting to gravitate toward experiences that validate your own, but the success or failure of others dont have a lot of bearing on yours, and vice versa, and besides, the exes discussed here are all over the spectrum.

your relationship faced major challenges from the beginning; challenges that, while you remained in the relationship, you couldnt, didnt want to, accept, and thats okay. its the case for many of us. but dont lose sight of the fact that these challenges were not new to you and didnt spring up over night. you saw them early on; so did i. both of us persisted in spite of that. theres a lot to be learned from that, especially if you want to go on to healthier relationships in the future.

Yes.  I am seeking a sort of validation I suppose. But it was also an epiphany once I had 2 weeks of no contact to see that even the "good times" were not normal.

So after I heard someone speak that DID get help, they felt sorrow for how they acted for years in every relationship.

So I can definitely see that people can turn relationships around. My only questions Is how feasible that is IF the BPD is untreated  and in denial.

I think it's a good question because so many of us come here for advice. And want to improve ourselves.  And we are always recycled. So more or less what are the odds of it ever working if only the non is trying to improve their actions and behavior.

[once removed]

But it was also an epiphany once I had 2 weeks of no contact to see that even the "good times" were not normal.

time and distance can give you perspective. youre likely to replay the relationship, and its various segments, many times, and take something from each replay. years from now, your perspective may look very different.

My only questions Is how feasible that is IF the BPD is untreated  and in denial.

its a vague question, and the vague answer is "depends". someone lower on the spectrum? pretty feasible. someone higher on the spectrum? BPD often goes into remission (that is not to say it is cured or that they would no longer be a very difficult person). i have seen members take the initiative to clean up their side of the street, and in some cases, their partner follows their lead. the two adapt and grow together. its really about compatibility.

And we are always recycled.

i only bring this up because its an important point: we are not always recycled. somewhere over 60% of relationships in general recycle for a variety of reasons. thats relatively normal, and perhaps healthy. plenty of relationships end at the first breakup; mine did. plenty of people get involved and exit very quickly. some recycle the relationship a couple or a few times, which again, may be relatively normal. and some recycle 3 or more (in some cases 10 or more) times. this is less healthy, and thats really on us. both partners recycle the relationship for a variety of reasons, and those reasons are important to explore.

So more or less what are the odds of it ever working if only the non is trying to improve their actions and behavior.

ill put it to you this way:

i learned the skills taught here years after my relationship ended, and they opened my eyes not to just how i performed as a partner with my ex, but how i performed with past exes, and how i performed in my life in general. i am confident they would have improved my relationship. they would have significantly lowered my stress levels. i would have dealt with conflict much better. they would have made me a better partner. im not as confident they would have saved my relationship. why? because while she and i loved each other very much, and remained together because of it, there were things that we couldnt, didnt want to, accept about each other, neither of us were ultimately fulfilled, and thats okay. strong (and dysfunctional) as our bond was, we ultimately were not compatible.

if she had changed, if i had changed, the relationship would have been different. better or worse, who could say? picking up on what Pretty Woman said, we tend to mate with people who have the same level of emotional maturity, or differentiation that we do. those levels arent fixed in place, people grow and change, and sometimes they grow together, and sometimes they grow apart. i got the relationship i was ready for, and i got the relationship i signed up for.

through that lens, its a chicken and egg kind of question. if i were who i am today, my relationship almost certainly would not have happened. we also were never married, never had children, and were both young, so we had no obligations, no reason to stick it out beyond our love for each other, so if i had changed, i might have left the relationship, which probably would have been worthwhile in itself.

a lot of that may be true for you. theres no point now for either of you to change for your relationship. there are a lot of lessons to be learned if you want to go on to healthier relationships in the future.

[Duped 1]

Yes of course these relationships can be improved but can they really be mutuality satisfying adult relationships with an untreated BPD?  I’m no expert but the stuff I read and multiple therapists i have talked to say no way. I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with someone who really is t an adult.

[Husband321]

Yes of course these relationships can be improved but can they really be mutuality satisfying adult relationships with an untreated BPD?  I’m no expert but the stuff I read and multiple therapists i have talked to say no way. I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with someone who really is t an adult.

Yes.  That's what I mean.

I do think I did MANY things wrong in my last relationship.  I was never given a handbook to study before I met her.

It's sort of like if a woman is with a physically abusive man. I'm sure she could learn and study how not to get beat, but as the victim it seems the onus shouldn't be on her to change.

How can we coax a BPD partner into getting treatment ?

My wife explained it like "if I mention I am suicidal they will commit me.  So I won't go there"

[Husband321]

Ok. This is my point.

In life we have many obstacles.  And as men we need a safe haven to come home to. (Women too, but just explaining my position)

So we have work, business, bills, driving, health, family, etc.

So then on top of that, you come home to an untreated BPD whom you have to learn a new language with. Whom is impulsive. No direction.  Walking on eggshells.

How is there enough hours in the day to enjoy life with a BPD whom refuses to work on herself?   Something has to take a back seat.  Either work.  Your hobbies.  Friends. Family. Etc. 

[ponco]

Ok. This is my point.

In life we have many obstacles.  And as men we need a safe haven to come home to. (Women too, but just explaining my position)

So we have work, business, bills, driving, health, family, etc.

So then on top of that, you come home to an untreated BPD whom you have to learn a new language with. Whom is impulsive. No direction.  Walking on eggshells.

How is there enough hours in the day to enjoy life with a BPD whom refuses to work on herself?   Something has to take a back seat.  Either work.  Your hobbies.  Friends. Family. Etc. 

I fully understand and empathize with you.

I think that the people who think that a BPD person can function like a normal adult and have a fair and reciprocate relationship are either delusional, have never been married to a BPD person or simply have been fooled by their current BPD partner into thinking that they got better and life is just great, but this illusion will come to an end very soon.

I was the latter type, my now uBPDw fooled me during our relationship into thinking that she got better and all her unjustified hatred and vitrol were a thing of the past, so we got married. Now almost 2 years later and a baby girl who is now 6 months old, she just can't keep faking the behavior of a normal person. All the time that she appeared to be dealing with our problems like a normal person she was actually just interiorizing it, vilifying me and my family behind my back and all that acquired momentum was released suddenly.

[MeandThee29]

I think that the people who think that a BPD person can function like a normal adult and have a fair and reciprocate relationship are either delusional, have never been married to a BPD person or simply have been fooled by their current BPD partner into thinking that they got better and life is just great, but this illusion will come to an end very soon.

Yes, most of his side of the family seems to still think it's just a normal marital spat. If we just forgave each other, we'd make it work.

He says that we can be friends and maybe the spark will ignite and we can get back together. That simple.

Nevermind what has really gone on and what the therapists and counsellors have said. He needs DBT counselling before marriage counselling, and he won't do either.

[Husband321]

I do think I could have communicated better.  Had better boundaries. And I probably should have avoided the relationship altogether.

In my case she was sexy, large inheritance, and extremely impulsive. Add all that up and it is not easy to "control" for lack of a better word.

Her blueprint as a child was her mom coming and going. Disappearing. Coming back. She almost resented me after a while for having a stable childhood.

So in my case, even though she said she so deeply wanted stability and a family, once she got that it was incredibly boring for her I believe.

Then when she would leave she would beg to come back for stability again. 

Just kept going in circles

[once removed]

It's sort of like if a woman is with a physically abusive man. I'm sure she could learn and study how not to get beat, but as the victim it seems the onus shouldn't be on her to change.

we have a member who was regularly being bullied and physically abused by his wife. he didnt validate that abuse. he didnt respond with SET. he did change and adopted a new approach. he got help, and he tightened the noose around the abuse. his wife began to accept her problem, and the two are now slowly rebuilding and growing together.

it happens. your story is different, and it had a different outcome. so did mine. thats okay.

[MeandThee29]

I do think I could have communicated better.  Had better boundaries. And I probably should have avoided the relationship altogether.

Definitely. Not that it would have made a difference though while I was in the relationship. He was high functioning for many years and got a lot of accolades at work. It was manageable then.

But things spiraled out of control big time. All the signs were there early on, and we probably would have been fine if it had stayed there. But here we are.

[SlyQQ]

People with BPD are volatile ( sorry for stating the obvious ) they can be relatively stable and at the high end of the spectrum for extended periods of time, then snowball out of control right back to the low end and as bad as it gets, with months or years ( and perhaps various partners )before they get back on top, its a roller coaster.

[Husband321]

we have a member who was regularly being bullied and physically abused by his wife. he didnt validate that abuse. he didnt respond with SET. he did change and adopted a new approach. he got help, and he tightened the noose around the abuse. his wife began to accept her problem, and the two are now slowly rebuilding and growing together.

it happens. your story is different, and it had a different outcome. so did mine. thats okay.

Makes sense. 

I guess I have just found with my situation and others I have known with BPD, often times they seem to operate best under chaos.  That seems to be when they are alive.

As an example when I met my wife I didn't understand her life at all. However I found her to be interesting. But she has stuff at my house, her house, storage garages, her car, her ex husbands house, and another house she rented out of state to be closer to her kids.

It was constant drama, driving, packing, unpacking, etc.

Her words always said she yearned for a "simple boring" life.  Stability.  I use to joke with her that I can't picture it.  But once we finally reached total stability, with no worries, she was bored out of her mind.  And the "stability" never lasted more than a few weeks.

I would be amazed at the energy she had when she would run away. Packing, moving furniture, planning, moving things, etc.  then once that is done she would beg to come back for stability.  Then repeat the same cycle. Even her mail goes to 3 different places. Any second she is mad she would re route to her moms or a po box.

To this day now she has her things even at another mans house.  More storage garages.  No idea of where she wants to live.  Basically living out of her car.  Her moms.  This guys house.  Different rentals etc. her sister has the same lifestyle. But is single.

But she "needs" to be in a relationship.  I just can't imagine her , in her current state, just happy being Suzy homemaker for a long period of time. Even though that's what she claims she wants.

[empath]

I suppose I was asking about females, because they have a far easier time jumping to a different partner, getting sympathy from family, from the law, and all around in general.

Unless the male is in a highly patriarchal church and/or family community. My h has lots of sympathy from his dad, his pastor, his overseer, mentor, etc. All of them think that I'm controlling and manipulative and just out to get my h who is the poor victim in this whole situation.

My h also was in therapy for his 'depression' and anger management. He was lying to his therapist, and I think she caught on and finally got him to let her talk with me. She said he has 'emotional instability' on a personality level. He uses 'depression' and 'emotional instability' as excuses for his behavior. He also has increasing physical pain which the doctors can't attribute to anything that is wrong.

Of course, none of this has helped him to think more positively about me - anger, anxiety, contempt, unforgiveness for whatever perceived abandonment. He had slight progress when he was off of the antidepressant, but when he went back on it, he backtracked.

He will tell people 'what they need to hear' - including me. Now, he can't figure out what I need to hear to make 'everything change'. I can't be a live-in therapist and security blanket (any employment that I have causes him anxiety and/or abandonment).

I'm not sure that basic therapy was all that helpful in my h case. It seems to just have made a different problem on top of the typical ones. Now, he can't do anything about his intense feelings.

[MeandThee29]

Unless the male is in a highly patriarchal church and/or family community. My h has lots of sympathy from his dad, his pastor, his overseer, mentor, etc. All of them think that I'm controlling and manipulative and just out to get my h who is the poor victim in this whole situation.

My h also was in therapy for his 'depression' and anger management. He was lying to his therapist, and I think she caught on and finally got him to let her talk with me. She said he has 'emotional instability' on a personality level. He uses 'depression' and 'emotional instability' as excuses for his behavior. He also has increasing physical pain which the doctors can't attribute to anything that is wrong.

Of course, none of this has helped him to think more positively about me - anger, anxiety, contempt, unforgiveness for whatever perceived abandonment. He had slight progress when he was off of the antidepressant, but when he went back on it, he backtracked.

He will tell people 'what they need to hear' - including me. Now, he can't figure out what I need to hear to make 'everything change'. I can't be a live-in therapist and security blanket (any employment that I have causes him anxiety and/or abandonment).

I'm not sure that basic therapy was all that helpful in my h case. It seems to just have made a different problem on top of the typical ones. Now, he can't do anything about his intense feelings.

So many similarities with my situation. If I had just been a better wife, made him #1, etc. etc. He can't let go of all my perceived failings and then tells people that he can't figure out what went wrong or what to do. He despises me and holds me in contempt and yet wants me to be loving and 100% supportive and accept the verbal abuse. I backed off from his family because they were simplifying it and saying that I just needed to forgive him.

In his case, he keeps putting off counselling and says it's just human-made advice anyway.

The clinical psychologist who has been seeing various family members including him for over a decade says he would need a year or more of DBT therapy to change his thinking if he stuck with it. He only lasted with her for a month after a suicide attempt in 2017 and said that she was blaming him too much and told him that he has a big ego.

[empath]

The clinical psychologist who has been seeing various family members including him for over a decade says he would need a year or more of DBT therapy to change his thinking if he stuck with it. He only lasted with her for a month after a suicide attempt in 2017 and said that she was blaming him too much and told him that he has a big ego.

My h's psychologist was a Christian who uses CBT. Now, he doesn't think that Christian based therapy does much... .  He's had former pastors and church members who have identified the emotional instability (along with the other areas of abuse), but he says that they are all wrong about him and judged him. One of the other criticisms that they had was that my h wasn't able to receive feedback that went counter to what he wanted.

He was drawn to mindfulness - so, of course, I encouraged him in that. It has at least helped with his anxiety and slowing down his reactions to his emotions. He was quite distressed about his anxiety.

I think therapy can give them tools to help them not act in ways that damage their relationships, but core issues of abandonment and lack of trust are going to be there. For me, the trust issue prevents me from having a close relationship. My current level of detachment is a 'marriage issue' for my h and fuels his anxiety.