Keeping mommy & kids connected and safe

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi Wentworth. It does make me a little anxious to have her in our home, but the kids are much more comfortable with this new arrangement, so I'm willing to compromise. A part of me hopes that this is for real and she is actually starting to be the mother she never really was. But another part of me wishes she would just go back home and let us move on with our healing. Both my attorney and therapist have said they think she will eventually go back to her home country.

It's hard for me to shed my caretaker role.  My therapist suggested I write positive things about myself on strips of paper, put them in a jar, and read one every day. I took it a little further and decided to do it together with my kids, and that has been fun for all of us. Before her first visit, I suggested to the kids that they could do it with Mommy too. The last two visits she has left notes in my jar... .The first one was "You are sweet!" The second one was "You are an amazing father!" These were a little disorienting, not to mention a violation of the PFA order. I was very tempted to put something nice in her jar too, but I don't want to give her the wrong idea. I am not interested in getting back together. If she is capable of taking a positive role in the kids' lives and co-parenting amicably with me, I am all for that. I have serious doubts that is possible though.

The visits will become more difficult for me after six weeks if it does go to overnight visits. By that time there may be a new parenting plan in place. I would prefer alternating weekends so I have a chance to do overnight weekend things with the kids too, and some things for myself as well. Her having them all day Saturday, then Saturday morning to Sunday morning makes both of those impossible.

I'm becoming more and more comfortable in my new life without her, and I think the kids are too. It's so nice to chill out and goof off with my kiddos after work & school without being constantly afraid of her and her reactions. Today I'm feeling very sorry for her actually. What a sad and chaotic life... .

[fontinalis]

Hi Wentworth. It does make me a little anxious to have her in our home, but the kids are much more comfortable with this new arrangement, so I'm willing to compromise. A part of me hopes that this is for real and she is actually starting to be the mother she never really was. But another part of me wishes she would just go back home and let us move on with our healing. Both my attorney and therapist have said they think she will eventually go back to her home country.

It's hard for me to shed my caretaker role.  My therapist suggested I write positive things about myself on strips of paper, put them in a jar, and read one every day. I took it a little further and decided to do it together with my kids, and that has been fun for all of us. Before her first visit, I suggested to the kids that they could do it with Mommy too. The last two visits she has left notes in my jar... .The first one was "You are sweet!" The second one was "You are an amazing father!" These were a little disorienting, not to mention a violation of the PFA order. I was very tempted to put something nice in her jar too, but I don't want to give her the wrong idea. I am not interested in getting back together. If she is capable of taking a positive role in the kids' lives and co-parenting amicably with me, I am all for that. I have serious doubts that is possible though.

The visits will become more difficult for me after six weeks if it does go to overnight visits. By that time there may be a new parenting plan in place. I would prefer alternating weekends so I have a chance to do overnight weekend things with the kids too, and some things for myself as well. Her having them all day Saturday, then Saturday morning to Sunday morning makes both of those impossible.

I'm becoming more and more comfortable in my new life without her, and I think the kids are too. It's so nice to chill out and goof off with my kiddos after work & school without being constantly afraid of her and her reactions. Today I'm feeling very sorry for her actually. What a sad and chaotic life... .

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, yes, it can be amazing to find your own parenting style in a new peaceful setting, and experience those fun times with the kids, can't it?  Everyone let's their guard down and can really enjoy each other.  It's wonderful.

You can come here to hear positive things, too!    Seriously, you are doing an amazing job.  As I listen to you work through things like weekend arrangements that allow overnight time for you, appreciating that your wife put papers in your jar, but showing restraint by not putting papers in hers, I can tell you are being thoughtful about this.  That space really does help get your thoughts in order and stay out of the FOG, doesn't it?

Keep steady on your course, and trust yourself.  You are a hero for what you are doing.  You are changing the course of things for the better.

WW

[ForeverDad]

I would prefer alternating weekends so I have a chance to do overnight weekend things with the kids too, and some things for myself as well. Her having them all day Saturday, then Saturday morning to Sunday morning makes both of those impossible.

Alternate weekends is standard.  Repeat, standard!  It gives both parents a weekend with the kids and a weekend off.  If she does move into overnights then I doubt the court would oppose you asking she transition to alternate weekends.  In fact, why isn't she already getting visits on alternating weekends?  Or maybe on weekends 1, 3 & 5 each month?

Today I'm feeling very sorry for her actually. What a sad and chaotic life... .

Those are her consequences.  We all wish it were otherwise — we've all been there and felt that — but you can't risk your future and the children's futures by sabotaging yourself into weakening your solid parenting.  Maybe she will improve if she makes real progress in long term therapy.  Tell yourself that if she can make improvement in long term therapy then in the future you can consider .  But she has to earn it, she won't properly appreciate you if you weaken good boundaries.

[livednlearned]

Alternate weekends is standard.  Repeat, standard!  It gives both parents a weekend with the kids and a weekend off.

I wonder if the severity of the DV situation is influencing this, fontinalis. My ex had a psychotic episode with a dash of DV one night, and my L and I then filed an ex parte motion to suspend visitation.

After a brief period of no contact between then S11 and his dad, the courts eventually gave him four hours Saturday, four hours Sunday. It really messed up my time with S11 on the weekends, but therapeutically, everyone felt it was important for S11 to try and rebuild a relationship with his dad. I surrendered to what the experts recommended because honestly, I felt conflicted myself  

Then, when it came time to revisit the limited visitation, my L and I proposed therapeutic conditions for n/BPDx that ultimately he was not able to accomplish (anger management classes, substance abuse testing, psychiatric evaluation).

His failure to meet those requirements eventually led to me having full custody, and n/BPDx moved out of the area. He hasn't seen our son since, a mixed blessing of both relief and grief for S16.

The indignity of meeting those requirements overrode his biological drive to be a good dad    .

Of all the things that happened in my marriage to confirm the severity of his mental illness, walking away from his own son by far capped everything. It is hard to fully mourn the combination of abuse and abandonment, although the distance at least provides the space to heal.

Has your lawyer said anything about how long the current arrangement will stand, and the strategy to get the schedule you think is best for the kids?

[fontinalis]

Thank you, everyone! You all are so uplifting!

Yesterday we had a very akward exchange. There was a miscommunication about where it would take place. According to the order, on Tuesdays the exchange can also happen at the house where our D12 takes piano lessons. The lessons are with the daughter of one of my stbxuBPDw's friends, one of the former supervisors. D12 told me this weekend that her piano teacher couldn't do Tuesdays anymore, so I assumed the exchange would be at my house. When I got home, her car wasn't there and all the lights were off. I panicked a little and tried to call my lawyer. But then I got a text from D12 asking if I remembered the exchange would be at the piano lessons!

So I drove the 30 minutes over there. I didn't see my stbxuBPDw's car, so I assumed she already left. Her friend invited me in and as the kids we're getting their shoes and coats on, my stbxuBPDw came around the corner and stood about three feet across from me... .She talked almost as if she was talking to me, but the same subject is often ambiguous in her language. I told the kids to give Mommy a hug goodbye, but S7 refused and hid behind me. I still don't know what was going on. It was very awkward and uncomfortable. I'm sure her being there was a violation of the order. I don't know what exactly she is trying to do, but it seems clear she is pushing the boundaries. I almost suspect she is trying to recycle me. I'm out of the FOG now and that is not going to happen!

The current order is for one year, although every three weeks for the first six weeks the visitation time increases if there are no incidents. I need to think more seriously about what my boundaries are and what is an "incident" I won't tolerate. I don't know how far she will push it. My lawyer thinks it's possible we will have a new parenting plan in place by the first divorce hearing on March 14th. I don't know how or why exactly she has ended up with every weekend.

I wanted a psychological evaluation and batterers intervention to be a part of the Protection From Abuse order, but my lawyer said I should let that be handled by the criminal case. I don't have much of a clue what is going on there. This who process is crazy making. But not so bad as living with BPD.

[Radcliff]

I'm a little fuzzy on what the violation of the order was.  Is she allowed "brief and peaceful contact" with you when you transfer the children?  I'm not challenging, just curious.  When in doubt, you can just send an e-mail to your lawyer to get it off your chest and document it.

I wanted a psychological evaluation and batterers intervention to be a part of the Protection From Abuse order, but my lawyer said I should let that be handled by the criminal case. I don't have much of a clue what is going on there. This who process is crazy making. But not so bad as living with BPD.

This is peer support, and I don't want to overstate my level of experience, but I would be very uncomfortable leaving the batterer program and psychological evaluation to the criminal case.  You are in the driver's seat in the family court case, and the district attorney is driving the criminal case.  I understand that the batterer program can come from the family or the criminal side, but why would the psychological evaluation come from the criminal side?  It seems like the psychological evaluation should be something that comes before any sort of relaxation of supervision requirements, which would make it logically happen on the family court side.  You are closest to the situation, so if it all looks good to you, no worries, but if you are not completely confident in the current plan, you might want to talk to your lawyer about it.  Hmm... .I'm re-reading your reply and you're saying, "I don't have much of a clue what is going on" in the criminal case.  Yet the batterer program and psych eval are important to you... .thus my point   You may or may not have a chance to inject those two things back into the family court process.  If that ship has sailed, don't stress about it.

You said you have a pro-bono lawyer, right?  Is he or she on the young side?  Do you know if he or she has experience with psych evals and batterer programs?  Perhaps they are outside of his or her comfort zone?  Sorry, whack me if I'm stressing you out.  Just trying to look at all the angles.

WW

[fontinalis]

Sorry it has been a while. I found out today that she has been offered a diversion, but she hasn't accepted it yet. She will have to sign an admission of guilt, write a letter of apology to me, submit to a DV assessment and comply with any recommendations (probably batterers intervention), and perform 20 hours of community service. She has until March 14th to decide. If she complies with everything for 12 months, it'll be like nothing ever happened. It doesn't feel great, but hopefully something good can come of this. I don't really want a letter of apology from her. I just want to move on.

Per the court order, we are not to have any contact during the exchanges. The leaving parent is supposed to wait in their vehicle until the other parent arrives, and then leave before the other exits their vehicle. What she did was definitely pushing way past the boundaries. She has been doing various other things to either push the boundaries or seemingly to hook me back in. She has cooked specifically for me several times and she has left a few nice little notes. She has packed a lunch for me twice. In the three and a half months before she was arrested, she only cooked ONCE. It's a little wacky. She also scheduled a parent teacher conference, which is the first time she's ever met with the kids' teachers.

The visits have been going well for the kids though. This is the most they've had of their mom ever, really. It's a long time to be kicked out of my own house, but I'm managing to keep myself occupied. I've had some quality time with friends and family.

We have converted her room into our daughter's room. I boxed up all of her things last weekend. That was much harder than I anticipated. I came across our wedding vows, love letters, and lots of pictures. There were pictures of her as a little girl that broke my heart. What happened to that adorable little child? I had to lock myself in the bathroom for a while so my kids wouldn't see me so broken.

But all of it is out now, and the room is freshly painted bright and girly. I picked up a loft bed off of Craigslist with a trundle bed she can use when she visits. Our D12 is pretty excited about having her own room. She really needed to get out of the room with her brothers. I know she will be going through some changes soon probably. I've enlisted my mom to help with that and a dear female friend to help guide me.

I'm happier now without her than I have been for years! This has been a painful mess, but I'm not sure I would have been able to get out of it any other way... .

Thank you, everyone!

[Radcliff]

fontinalis,

Thanks for the update!  It's great to hear from you!  It was heartwarming to hear about how you've painted and prepared a room for your daughter.  I bet she is so excited!  Don't forget about us   If you end up posting on the Detaching or Learning boards, send me a PM and give me a link, or even better, post a link on this thread so those of us who have been following your story will be able to follow your healing.

Best,

WW

[livednlearned]

Thanks for the update fontinalis   It sounds like you are adapting to the new normal, and it's very sweet that your D12 gets her own room.

Per the court order, we are not to have any contact during the exchanges. The leaving parent is supposed to wait in their vehicle until the other parent arrives, and then leave before the other exits their vehicle. What she did was definitely pushing way past the boundaries.

It's probably a good idea to think how you want to handle things when she crosses this boundary. BPD sufferers usually have a pronounced lack of impulse control, and a piece of paper will be no match for that.

It will fall to you to decide how to enforce (in the moment).

Is it permissible in your state to record someone without their consent (usually called one-party consent)? My ex started to approach my car during exchanges. The order said neither party would leave house/car. So I started to hold up my phone and record, and that helped n/BPDx with his impulse control  

[fontinalis]

Is it permissible in your state to record someone without their consent (usually called one-party consent)? My ex started to approach my car during exchanges. The order said neither party would leave house/car. So I started to hold up my phone and record, and that helped n/BPDx with his impulse control

Hi livednlearned! I need to ask my attorney! I had my phone ready to do exactly that during the exchange after the one I wrote about. I reported what she did to my attorney, and she hasn't tried anything like that since.

I read one of your posts on another thread about finding happiness after divorce. It gave me a lot of hope! Thank you for sharing

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, check where you live, but I believe the rules may be different for videorecording than for audiorecording.  At least when you are obviously holding a cell phone up.  Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that it is so obvious, and the person has the opportunity to object right there on camera.  In any event, I handed cell phone video to our police who gave it to the DA, and didn't hear any grief over it (though your state may be different).  It's kind of a provocative thing to do, so I wouldn't do it unless you have to.

Hey, if anyone can point me to that happiness link, I'd appreciate it!

WW

[fontinalis]

Hi WW! Here is that link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321039.0;all

Until I hear back from my attorney, I suppose I can at least use my cell phone camera as a deterrent if need be! Maybe it's inadmissible, but I doubt she knows either. She hasn't tried anything too overt since I complained to my attorney though.

It's hard to know what exactly she's trying to do, and I don't think it's worth my time either. It's sad and painful, but I hold no hope of her ever being able to change. Its definitely time to move on! It's still a daily struggle, but I am becoming more relaxed and happier than I have been in years.

[ForeverDad]

Be aware courts can be more sensitive too about children being recorded, they don't like kids being put on the spot or forced to choose between parents.  What some members here have done, such as David who lives in a state where judge told him not to record his ex, is to "record myself and (1) I will be able to prove I wasn't doing anything wrong and (2) if ex gets recorded too, well, it happens."

Most of the recording I did was, as noted above, for self-preservation since she made so many allegations to so many agencies.  I kept it low key, I either put it in my shirt pocket or pants pocket (pants were a swish-swish noise problem).  I knew waving something around would surely trigger her.

[Radcliff]

It turns out that I just got some experience regarding the legality of recording, helping my lawyer argue with my wife's lawyer over some audio I wanted to use.  It's not too hard to look up the rules for your state on the Internet.  For audio recording, there are one-party states and two-party states.  Two party states require both peoples' consent.  But if the person knows you're recording (for example if you can be heard telling them in the recording that you are recording), and continues to talk and not shut up or exit the conversation, then "implied consent" has been given (in my state at least).  So a recording from a shirt pocket is not a good thing to do in a two-party state.  Though I suppose (talk to your lawyer) that you might be able to use it in your own defense.  I did a lot of recording from my pocket when I thought an assault might be about to happen.  I live in a two-party state, but was thinking it could be helpful to defend myself.  But audio of an assault can be pretty confusing to listen to.  Video is way better, though it absolutely can escalate someone. 

WW

[ForeverDad]

My point was that in many cases something was better than nothing.  It's very hard to defend against an allegation by replying "that didn't happen", especially when restraining or protection orders are given out, as it feels to us who faced them, like lipops.

My ex knew I had recording devices (today, who doesn't?) and sometimes she'd even shout, "Record me, I don't care, you're a #$%&... ." even when I wasn't recording or didn't have one with me.

I believe a lot of the 1 party vs 2 party concern is that we don't want to give courts (or our ex) any basis, however minor, to find fault with us.  Well, one comment I've read is that the restrictive laws were written to deal with aggressive police, reporters and the like... .the professionals.  Yes, it applies to all but in most cases individuals don't get the heavy hand of officialdom jumping all over us.  It all depends on the circumstances, the state, etc.  We all heard of the case where the movie star cursed out his kid and the kid's mother in voicemails and the mother was able to play it to the press because VM (probably phone calls and public areas with people around) doesn't have an expectation of privacy which those laws try to address.  Another example, if police respond to an incident, the parent not behaving badly can play a recording to possibly avoid getting arrested, at the officers' discretion, even though their court may refuse to listen to it.

All I'm saying is that every person has to ponder the laws, the facts and the implications and make an individual decision on what to do or not do.  I've been a member here for over a decade and while there have been many reports of courts not listening to recordings, that it was more likely agencies or police might listen, only maybe a handful of members reported being specifically told by the court to stop recording.  I think too the big theme was to not record the children.  I don't think any of our members went to jail over it.

[Radcliff]

I agree with all of ForeverDad's points.  My experience was with my wife's lawyer pushing back against a recording in a two-party state (and of course her lawyer would do that), and we pushed past the objection by pointing out that my wife acknowledged on the recording that she was being recorded, and I also mentioned it.  Consent was implied.  A few months previously, I delivered a couple of video recordings and audio recordings to the police who gave them to the DA, and nobody every gave me a hard time about it.  I like ForeverDad's point about playing the recording for the police.  In fact, when I went to the police station for advice, a police officer in this two-party state told me to record my wife!  Much better to stop a problem by convincing a police officer before he arrests you than by trying to defend yourself in court!  I walked around quite a bit with my phone recording in my pocket when my wife was behaving as if she might assault me, and it was mostly to protect myself against false accusations.  The video was much more useful for demonstrating my wife's misbehavior.  It's important to recognize, though, the limits of audio recording.  It's pretty hard to judge what happened in an assault by the audio.  It's even hard in video.  If you're being attacked, the camera often ends up pointing at the floor, the ceiling, your belly, or wherever, and it's not clear if you're fighting back, or just shielding yourself.

One more thing about audio -- sound quality is terrible from your pocket, and the other party is hard to hear.  Walking around makes a ton of noise.  A buddy of mine actually wore an MP3 player that could record on his arm.  For all my effort, in my particular situation I didn't get value out of hardly any of my audio recordings  -- except for that one where my wife misbehaved in a major way in front of D12, and gives implied consent.  All the trouble may be worth it just for that one recording.

As I was doing Internet research on this topic, I learned that concerns about unlawful recording pertain not just to intrusive police practices.  I would have thought that there would be special regard for someone stuck in a domestic violence situation.  There may be, but it's also true that people in contested divorces may use selective recording, or baiting their partner then recording their partner's reaction to gain leverage in a dishonorable way.  I think it's all perceived as part of a big picture.  If you have a detailed journal of abuse, and are behaving in a mature, problem-solving fashion, and there is a question about appropriateness of a recording or whether it paints an accurate picture, you are more likely to be believed.

WW