Wanting to be a family again...

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have been married for thirteen years, separated for the last month and a half. Life together was always a roller coaster, but the last five years have been especially turbulent.

One minute I was the most wonderful husband and father, the next minute she never loved me and always knew she wanted to divorce me. She would say she didn't want me to have any contact with our kids. She could say the most hurtful things, though often seemingly random and nonsensical. She was sporadically physically violent too. Almost all of this happened in front of the kids. Asking her to wait until later would only make things worse.  For the most part, she wasn't directly abusive towards the kids.

She would often see negative emotions directed at her in the faces of others, like a cashier at the grocery store or my mom. It felt like she was always looking for proof of my disapproval. I felt like I could never share my feelings or thoughts because they would always be twisted into something negative about her, even when totally unrelated to her.

She had a breakdown a year and a half ago and decided to try therapy again. She has had mental health issues since elementary school and has been in and out of psychiatric help. The therapy sessions seemed to help, but she never did the exercises her therapist gave her and she was often brutally critical of him (for example about his acne). She also went on sertraline, which seemed to make an immediate difference in her mood and paranoia. Then one day everything went back to how it was again. I suspected she quit taking the medicine, but she swore she still was. About two weeks later, I found the pill bottle and confronted her with the proof that she had quit. She said she couldn't stand the side effects, and she would heal herself with yoga instead. But things got worse and she decided to try escitalopram instead. She took it for about a month before telling me that her yoga friends convinced her that she didn't need medicine or therapy. I never noticed a change on escitalopram.

Things continued on a slow downward spiral until about a year ago when I messed up terribly and had an affair, after which things got much worse. I felt horribly guilty about the affair and admitted it to her. What I did was justification to her for a lot of verbal and physical abuse against me.

She went with the kids to stay with her parents over the summer, during which she met a man she fell in love with. She asked the kids if she should marry him. I didn't find out about all of this until about a week after they came back and she said she wanted a divorce. Like a lot of things in our marriage, she thought divorce should be all my responsibility, although she would often say she didn't know if she could trust me and accused me of hiding money from her. I dragged my feet on filling for several months. At one point she asked if we could fall in love again. I stayed silent, because I thought I just wanted it to all be over.

One day, without discussing anything with me, she bought a car. I felt tired of subsidizing her lifestyle, so the next day, I asked the cell phone company to separate our lines. This really set her off. She said I was a bad husband and father and threatened to take the kids. Later that night she woke me up and tried to get in bed with me. I said no thank you. She said she couldn't sleep and I had to comfort her because of all the things I had done to her, like how I didn't help her when she was depressed after my step dad died. I brought up how she was critical of me helping him too much when he was dying. She went into a rage and ripped my shirt off and started hitting my back and head. Our daughter woke up crying and begged her to stop. She said she couldn't because I was making her. I went to the police and she was arrested and has been charged with domestic battery. She has been out of the home since.

I thought I would be relieved, but I have actually felt the opposite. I've struggled with anxiety, guilt, and loneliness since then. I've started going to therapy, and I think my therapist is going to be a big help. I also started taking escitalopram because I felt like the anxiety was interfering with my work and ability to hold it together for our kids. I think escitalopram is helping, but I can sympathize with my wife's dislike of the side effects now.

I also read Stop Walking on Eggshells, at the recommendation of my therapist. What a revelation! I'm so sad I didn't know about this book five or even three years ago. I feel like I did everything wrong. I have much more compassion and understanding for her now, but I'm afraid it's too late.

At the protection order hearing, I asked the judge to modify the order to allow her to have supervised visits with the kids. Her attorney suggested overnight visits supervised by the people she is living with now. I wasn't totally comfortable with it, but the judge ordered it anyway. Thankfully, my misgivings were wrong and everything has gone wonderfully. I think it has been a great relief for the kids. At the last pick up and drop off, she was in the car. She looked a lot healthier and happier than when I saw her at the hearing. She was so beautiful, it made me cry.

If she wants to get help and change, I want to be there for her all the way. I made our marriage sound bad, but there were beautiful times too. I miss the woman who would stay up drinking tea and talking with me after our kids had gone to sleep. I just can't go back to how life was, and neither should the kids have to. I love her and miss her so much. I've been talking with my lawyer about proposing conditions for dismissing the protection order, like her getting back into and staying in therapy. Of course, I have no idea how she feels. She may never want to be with me again.

I feel so lost... .I would love to hear from someone who has survived a situation like this with their partner.

[fontinalis]

I have been married for thirteen years, separated for the last month and a half. Life together was always a roller coaster, but the last five years have been especially turbulent.

One minute I was the most wonderful husband and father, the next minute she never loved me and always knew she wanted to divorce me. She would say she didn't want me to have any contact with our kids. She could say the most hurtful things, though often seemingly random and nonsensical. She was sporadically physically violent too. Almost all of this happened in front of the kids. Asking her to wait until later would only make things worse.  For the most part, she wasn't directly abusive towards the kids.

She would often see negative emotions directed at her in the faces of others, like a cashier at the grocery store or my mom. It felt like she was always looking for proof of my disapproval. I felt like I could never share my feelings or thoughts because they would always be twisted into something negative about her, even when totally unrelated to her.

She had a breakdown a year and a half ago and decided to try therapy again. She has had mental health issues since elementary school and has been in and out of psychiatric help. The therapy sessions seemed to help, but she never did the exercises her therapist gave her and she was often brutally critical of him (for example about his acne). She also went on sertraline, which seemed to make an immediate difference in her mood and paranoia. Then one day everything went back to how it was again. I suspected she quit taking the medicine, but she swore she still was. About two weeks later, I found the pill bottle and confronted her with the proof that she had quit. She said she couldn't stand the side effects, and she would heal herself with yoga instead. But things got worse and she decided to try escitalopram instead. She took it for about a month before telling me that her yoga friends convinced her that she didn't need medicine or therapy. I never noticed a change on escitalopram.

Things continued on a slow downward spiral until about a year ago when I messed up terribly and had an affair, after which things got much worse. I felt horribly guilty about the affair and admitted it to her. What I did was justification to her for a lot of verbal and physical abuse against me.

She went with the kids to stay with her parents over the summer, during which she met a man she fell in love with. She asked the kids if she should marry him. I didn't find out about all of this until about a week after they came back and she said she wanted a divorce. Like a lot of things in our marriage, she thought divorce should be all my responsibility, although she would often say she didn't know if she could trust me and accused me of hiding money from her. I dragged my feet on filling for several months. At one point she asked if we could fall in love again. I stayed silent, because I thought I just wanted it to all be over.

One day, without discussing anything with me, she bought a car. I felt tired of subsidizing her lifestyle, so the next day, I asked the cell phone company to separate our lines. This really set her off. She said I was a bad husband and father and threatened to take the kids. Later that night she woke me up and tried to get in bed with me. I said no thank you. She said she couldn't sleep and I had to comfort her because of all the things I had done to her, like how I didn't help her when she was depressed after my step dad died. I brought up how she was critical of me helping him too much when he was dying. She went into a rage and ripped my shirt off and started hitting my back and head. Our daughter woke up crying and begged her to stop. She said she couldn't because I was making her. I went to the police and she was arrested and has been charged with domestic battery. She has been out of the home since.

I thought I would be relieved, but I have actually felt the opposite. I've struggled with anxiety, guilt, and loneliness since then. I've started going to therapy, and I think my therapist is going to be a big help. I also started taking escitalopram because I felt like the anxiety was interfering with my work and ability to hold it together for our kids. I think escitalopram is helping, but I can sympathize with my wife's dislike of the side effects now.

I also read Stop Walking on Eggshells, at the recommendation of my therapist. What a revelation! I'm so sad I didn't know about this book five or even three years ago. I feel like I did everything wrong. I have much more compassion and understanding for her now, but I'm afraid it's too late.

At the protection order hearing, I asked the judge to modify the order to allow her to have supervised visits with the kids. Her attorney suggested overnight visits supervised by the people she is living with now. I wasn't totally comfortable with it, but the judge ordered it anyway. Thankfully, my misgivings were wrong and everything has gone wonderfully. I think it has been a great relief for the kids. At the last pick up and drop off, she was in the car. She looked a lot healthier and happier than when I saw her at the hearing. She was so beautiful, it made me cry.

If she wants to get help and change, I want to be there for her all the way. I made our marriage sound bad, but there were beautiful times too. I miss the woman who would stay up drinking tea and talking with me after our kids had gone to sleep. I just can't go back to how life was, and neither should the kids have to. I love her and miss her so much. I've been talking with my lawyer about proposing conditions for dismissing the protection order, like her getting back into and staying in therapy. Of course, I have no idea how she feels. She may never want to be with me again.

I feel so lost... .I would love to hear from someone who has survived a situation like this with their partner.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[DaddyBear77]

fontinalis, first of all, wow - I want to say up front at how impressed I am with you and everything you've done for yourself and your family. It sounds like you've taken some incredible steps and you should take a minute to congratulate yourself on how much you've been able to accomplish.

So many aspects of your story resonate with my own. They also resonate with several other members here. One particular member comes to mind who is actively trying to navigate a protection order against his wife while trying hard to preserve his family. So there are others here dealing with very similar issues. These are all incredibly complex and difficult situations and my heart goes out to you.

One thing I'll suggest is that you take a look at the concept of Wisemind and Mindfulness - the blending of logic and emotion. Wisemind allows you to make the best decisions possible, even in the face of difficult emotions. The longing you feel when you see your beautiful wife needs to blend with the logical fact that she's having a very difficult time with her emotions. Running toward what you used to have is completely understandable from an emotional perspective, but adding logic to the mix paints a very different picture.

You're doing great work and I'm sure many others will be able to share their stories with you here, too. Welcome to the family and I'm glad you found us.

[Turkish]

How are the kids doing with all of this,  how old are they?

[fontinalis]

Thank you for your kind words, DaddyBear77. It's hard to feel like I've done anything good or right. I'm afraid I was very invalidating to my wife, although not on purpose. If only I had come across this website and Stop Walking on Eggshells before things got so bad... .I will be reading about Wisemind and Mindfulness today!

Hi Turkish. This has been rough on the kids, but things seem to gradually getting better. We have a 12 year old girl and 10 & 7 year old boys. It has been especially difficult for the boys. They have been both very sensitive and kind of acting out in ways a little like mommy. They will all be starting therapy with their own counselors very soon. Our daughter has had to play the role of mother a lot over the last several years, and she had a somewhat difficult relationship with mommy. She seems to be the one holding it together the best.

She was recently student of the week, and in the announcement she wrote that I am her hero. That made me bawl... .

[DaddyBear77]

She was recently student of the week, and in the announcement she wrote that I am her hero. That made me bawl... .

This sounds like an absolutely amazing moment, and what a wonderful feeling to know you've touched someone's life like that.

I also wish I had come across SWOE earlier, but despite the fact that I came across it 8 years ago, it took me at least 7 to find the courage to post here and participate. Once I took that step, I felt like a whole new world opened up. I can also say that if I had taken action years ago, I may have never met my 4 year old daughter.

So for me, it's not about where I've been or what I didn't do.  It's about what I'm going to do today.

[fontinalis]

When we are able to talk again, I would like to apologise to my wife for having been so invalidating to her, but without validating the physical and verbal abuse. I always felt the need to defend myself or give others she was accusing the benefit of the doubt. I understand now why this never worked. I feel foolish for having persisted with my useless logic for so many years. Anyone who has experience with this delicate balance of apologizing for your role in the failure of the relationship without condoning your partner's role, please share. I could use help sorting my thoughts out and planning. Thank you!

[Radcliff]

Hello fontinalis,

I am likely the member DaddyBear77 was referring to in his post where he mentioned the restraining order.  There are many similarities in our situations.  My wife was served with a restraining order a couple of months ago, and is living elsewhere, with supervised visits with our D12.  She was physically violent with me, and verbally abusive, often in front of the kids.  She is in therapy, and is making some progress, though it is slow going.

We definitely won't cover everything into one message, but there are three things I'd like to start with:

Slow Down
I have built a life around taking care of my wife and adapting to her emotional needs.  She doesn't even have to work that hard at it.  Just a little emotional distress on her part, and I work to make things better.  In order to give us the best shot at a long lasting solution, we need to go very slowly and put up with discomfort.  As soon as the restraining order was issued, I started thinking about the stages for dismantling it.  My therapist slowed me down.  Both my wife and I have so much individual progress we need to make before we are ready for that.  It is impossible to put a timeline on it.  It took us years to get here.  Best case it will take many months to get the restraining order lifted.  She is in a year-long DBT program, and a year-long batterer's program.  We are nowhere near ready for marriage counseling.  Right now we are just texting about kid issues and family finances.  Even with that limited contact, she sometimes dysregulates.  I am not having any discussions with my wife about timeline for lifting the restraining order.  I tell her I want us to succeed and not fail by going too fast, that we both have a lot of individual work to do, etc.

One other thing that is happening is that occasionally I will feel an overwhelming wave of anxiety about making a decision about the marriage and whether it will work out.  That is when I remind myself that I will not be deciding today, tomorrow, or even next month.  :)eciding is off the table right now.  We are still stopping the bleeding and getting healing started.  Taking that "deciding" pressure off is a big help.

You worried me a bit when you talked about conditions for lifting the restraining order like she is in therapy and promises to stay.  You will need more than that.  You will need to see that she's actually getting better.  That she had added coping skills and is demonstrating the ability to manage her emotions.  Since physical violence and other abuse is involved you will likely need to see some acknowledgement and accountability for that to help you be confident it won't happen again (this issue is one I'm currently working through).  Basically, you and me both need to do a lot of legwork to even figure out what it means to be ready to lift the restraining order.

That restraining order is terribly difficult, but it is also a gift to your family.  It gives you leverage and protection that so many others do not have.  And if you let go of it prematurely, getting another one may never happen -- there's a good chance your wife will be smart enough to regulate her behavior just well enough to avoid another restraining order, which still leaves way too much room for devastating abuse.  Slow down, get your bearings.  This is going to take some time.

Take Care of Yourself
I am in pretty rough shape.  It seems like every week, there's a new task or crisis to service this situation.  We need an amendment to the restraining order so we can both be at kids' sports events.  My wife wants to move to a better, more expensive place.  My wife wants to go to court to get unsupervised visits.  I am not exercising regularly and am not able to do recovery therapy with my therapist because we're doing damage control.  I'm taking wrong turns in my own neighborhood.  So, I suppose I can't even follow my own advice!  But clearly, if you're half the wreck I am, we both need to try to up our game in this area.  One useful book my therapist got me to start reading is Boundaries, by Cloud and Townsend. It's a little heavy on scripture references, but still spot on and very helpful to me in understanding how I got here and how to work better in the present situation.  For example, in the immediate weeks after the restraining order, I was having four hour text conversations with my wife to sort things out.  Finally, I put a 9pm curfew and a time limit on those.

You mentioned anxiety, guilt, and loneliness.  All three have been off the charts for me.  This totally sucks.  Which makes me more determined to slow down and do this right.  I cannot do this again!

You mentioned wishing you'd figured things out sooner.  Me too.  I've been married 23 years, found out about BPD six years ago, and only joined the board here one year ago, then only became really active in the board six months ago.  The amount of growth I've had in the last six months with respect to BPD is probably equal to what I did in the last 23 years.  Sure, it kills me to think about the years of ignorance.  It's not like we were sitting on our butts, though.  We were surviving, taking care of our wives and kids under the most awful circumstances.  When you are just getting by, it makes it hard to learn and get help!

If you take care of yourself, it's easier to do the next thing, taking care of your kids.

Take Care of Your Kids
I'm finding this to be a challenge now.  Sometimes I'll get pulled into the computer, writing abuse summaries for psychologists, or getting support, and need to remind myself that D12 is on break and I should try to get the psychologist homework done when she's not around.  I'm exhausted and stressed and having a very hard time being mentally present.  It is so hard being the only adult in the house, and not being able to lean on anyone, having to be strong for them.  But there have been successes as well.  I try to find opportunities to laugh with them.  Without constant ridicule from my wife, I am able to find my own parenting style.  I am teaching and practicing respect in our home.  And, I confess, we're doing a few things we wouldn't do with my wife around.  More ice cream   And the other night, D12 said the soccer movie, Bend it Like Beckham, sounded boring.  I joked with her that we should watch a WWII movie like Midway.  (We have three daughters.  War movies and westerns only get watched in our home by me, alone, when my wife is traveling   I showed D12 the Midway trailer on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMrVTMRbtJg
To my astonishment, she said she'd watch it!  :)espite all the things getting blown up, it wasn't that gory at all, and had a ton about naval and naval air strategy, so we both enjoyed it.  I hadn't seen it since I saw it with my father in the theaters when I was eight!  (Who takes an eight year old to a war movie?  Hey -- it was the 70s   Check out the all star cast on that trailer b.t.w.!

When we are able to talk again, I would like to apologise to my wife for having been so invalidating to her, but without validating the physical and verbal abuse. I always felt the need to defend myself or give others she was accusing the benefit of the doubt. I understand now why this never worked. I feel foolish for having persisted with my useless logic for so many years. Anyone who has experience with this delicate balance of apologizing for your role in the failure of the relationship without condoning your partner's role, please share. I could use help sorting my thoughts out and planning. Thank you!

Be very careful here.  When I see my wife sometimes at pickup or dropoff it is heartbreaking. It is natural for you to want to make amends with her.  But the abuse makes this a complicated situation.  A lot depends on where your wife is.  Take your time.  Talk to your therapist about it.  You could make a general statement at some point about how you are learning so much now that could help in your relationship, but your guilt may push you to say too much.  It is going to be extremely hard for her to accept her responsibility for the abuse. You may have a list a mile long of the things you think you should apologize for.  As you gain some perspective on the effect of the abuse and her mental illness, that list will likely grow shorter.  If the time is right, you might pick one thing to apologize for, something like, "I could have done so much better at acknowledging your feelings."  But only if the time is right.  Not when she is saying something like, "Prove you love me," etc.  Sorry, it's late, and my writing is not the most crisp.  Go slow on this.  Get your therapist's advice.  This is not a level playing field.  Err on the side of protecting yourself.

What other thoughts do you have?  What questions might I answer?

Best,

WW

[fontinalis]

Wentworth, thank you so much for sharing! 23 years... .that makes me feel like I haven't been through much!  But I think if my wife's last rage had been a little less severe, I would have kept going the way things were for many more years. I still wish I could save my marriage, but I can't go back to how things were.

Yes, I need to slow down. My therapist has been on vacation for a couple of weeks, and I'm afraid I'm not good at putting the brakes on my thoughts yet on my own.

Per both the protection order and her bond, she can't contact me at all, and I was advised not to contact her either. So we haven't communicated in over a month and a half now. It was hard seeing her at the hearing a month ago, and then again last weekend, but you're right about needing this space. I'm a huge mess still, but I have learned more in the last seven weeks than I did in all the 14 years since we started dating. I don't think that would have happened if we were still together.

I have felt like failure of a parent, but I think that is getting better. The kids were so sensitive and at the same time acting out, and I felt like I couldn't figure out how to fix things. I was trying so hard to encourage them to respond to each other in kinder, more gently ways, but I'm afraid I  was just invalidating their feelings.

I took them out Christmas shopping for mommy before their first visit, and it was a nightmare. I broke down and sobbed uncontrollably in front of them, which scared them. But I think it maybe helped them see how hard this is for me too, and that we all need to help each other. Now I'm applying some of the things that I've learned about BPD to my parenting, and I think it's making me a better parent. Plus, antidepressants have leveled me out a bit.

The protection order is still temporary. Her attorney asked for a continuance at the first hearing, and the next hearing is in a week. The conditions for dismissing the petition I've discussed with my attorney are: 1) Extend the current temporary protection order for two months 2) We both agree to seek individual therapy (a minimum of 6 sessions) 3) She must sign a release for me to communicate with her therapist 4) If and when her therapist feels it is appropriate, we will attend counseling together 5) If her therapist feels she is making progress developing new coping mechanisms, I agree dismiss the petition. If she is not making progress, I can ask for another extension or for it to be made permanent (1 year) at the next hearing. If all else fails, the no contact provision of her bond is a safety net.

So many things to think about, but only me to sit and ruminate on it all. There were a few years in the middle of our marriage when things seemed pretty good, and we talked a lot. I wish I had that woman here with me now. I feel kind of pathetically lonely... .But it was that relationship that pushed all friends and most family out of my life too. So complicated.

[Radcliff]

Wentworth, thank you so much for sharing! 23 years... .that makes me feel like I haven't been through much!  But I think if my wife's last rage had been a little less severe, I would have kept going the way things were for many more years. I still wish I could save my marriage, but I can't go back to how things were.

fontinalis, you've been through plenty.  Look at it this way -- you are either smarter or luckier than me, or both!  The younger you and she and the kids are when you figure this out, the better.  And watch out about minimization.  It is rampant among survivors of abuse, and I'm still trying to stop doing it.  Just today I was looking at a stack of documentation of abuse I was about to give my therapist and was worrying that maybe I was making too much of it.  I gave it to her, and she looked a little ill reading it.  And I'm worrying about if it's bad enough to justify how I feel.  It is mind-bending.

Yes, I need to slow down. My therapist has been on vacation for a couple of weeks, and I'm afraid I'm not good at putting the brakes on my thoughts yet on my own.

When I was saying "slow down," I was talking about slowing down the path to getting back together.  Since that's so important, I'll talk about that in a separate post after this one.  As for slowing down the thoughts, boy, this has been a big issue for me lately -- runaway thoughts.  I've found that a breathing technique my therapist taught me helps me stop them in their tracks.  I breathe in through my nose for a slow count of 5, hold for a slow count of 6, and exhale through my mouth for a slow count of 7.  You can play with the timing for what feels right -- people generally can go slower with practice.  When I do this, I'm controlling my body and I have to concentrate.  It totally interrupts runaway thoughts.  To keep them from coming back, I try to get engaged in a neutral or good activity, especially with physical motion, like picking up the house, exercising, etc.

Per both the protection order and her bond, she can't contact me at all, and I was advised not to contact her either. So we haven't communicated in over a month and a half now. It was hard seeing her at the hearing a month ago, and then again last weekend, but you're right about needing this space. I'm a huge mess still, but I have learned more in the last seven weeks than I did in all the 14 years since we started dating. I don't think that would have happened if we were still together.

I'm having frequent text contact with my wife, and it's often useful to keep family business moving, but is pretty hard on me.  If NC is working for you, great!  I can totally relate to how much you are learning.  Having peace in the home has helped me to learn more in the last couple of months than in the many years before that.  Speaking of no contact, when you eventually do start having contact, talk with your therapist about options for gradually increasing contact.  In person is the most intense.  Phone can be pretty intense.  Text can give you some nice emotional safety and space, though it removes tone and slow typing can be frustrating, so it may or may not work for you and her.  I am *very* happy we are texting and I'm not burdened with phone conversations, let alone in person right now.  The less contact I have with my wife at the moment, the more space I have for healing (and right now I'm having too much contact and am trying to back off).

I have felt like failure of a parent, but I think that is getting better. The kids were so sensitive and at the same time acting out, and I felt like I couldn't figure out how to fix things. I was trying so hard to encourage them to respond to each other in kinder, more gently ways, but I'm afraid I  was just invalidating their feelings.

It's great that you are paying attention to this.  I struggle with feeling like an inadequate parent all the time these days, but you are not a failure as a parent.  Dude, you had the courage to go to the police -- that was freaking hard!  (Sorry, sometimes I lapse into the dialect of my adopted state   Seriously, reporting my wife to the police was one of the most difficult things I've ever done.  It was gut wrenching.  And I did it for the kids, to stop what was happening in our home.

One of the times when I'm most likely to get in trouble as a parent is when I place pressure on myself to get instant results.  Then I get tense, I don't listen well, and if I get angry I may stop modeling the respect that I want to rule in our home.  I think you pegged it -- to validate their feelings first, then work with them to see if they can think of more appropriate ways to deal with those feelings.  I try to imagine I'm Ward Cleaver, "Listen, Beaver, I understand you are upset, and I would be too if my brother said I looked like a monkey, but what choices might you have had besides hitting Wally?"  Of course, I think I might have an easier time pulling off this imitation if I had June Cleaver by my side  

I took them out Christmas shopping for mommy before their first visit, and it was a nightmare. I broke down and sobbed uncontrollably in front of them, which scared them. But I think it maybe helped them see how hard this is for me too, and that we all need to help each other. Now I'm applying some of the things that I've learned about BPD to my parenting, and I think it's making me a better parent. Plus, antidepressants have leveled me out a bit.

That sounds tough.  What do you think triggered your emotions?  Towing three kids Christmas shopping would almost certainly have pushed me over the edge in my current state.  I struggle with my feelings about what the kids might think about what's going on with me.  I would like them to understand it is hard for me, but I think that is likely my needs talking, not theirs.  As best I can figure it, the more stable I appear, the better for them.  Sucks for me sometimes, but that's the job.  One thing that my therapist has pushed me to do is to develop several different sources of support.  She said it's good to have at least five.  Each one has different strengths.  I've got this board, a couple of close friend, two parents, and a therapist, and a domestic violence advocate.  Unfortunately, the friends and family are in far off places, so I'm still short on local support.

So many things to think about, but only me to sit and ruminate on it all. There were a few years in the middle of our marriage when things seemed pretty good, and we talked a lot. I wish I had that woman here with me now. I feel kind of pathetically lonely... .But it was that relationship that pushed all friends and most family out of my life too. So complicated.

I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, but I was sobbing in my bed New Year's Eve, grieving for my marriage.  I'm not sure if I've ever cried like that in my adult life.  It is damn lonely.  It is getting better, though.  Having fun times with the kids helps.  I'm starting up an old hobby that I'd neglected while taking care of all of my family's needs.  There's no substitute for holding a woman, but I'm getting by, and things were so far out of whack, I've got the determination not to go back to the relationship unless we have things very well back on track.

In case they might be useful for you to read, here are three of my most useful threads.  There's a gap between threads where the restraining order was served.  Sorry for the gap, that was a hectic time.  The third thread is the current one, and has an update from today.

Contradiction between the local DV world and the bpdfamily world
Progress Report
Negotiated a Restraining Order - Rehabilitating a Relationship

WW

[Radcliff]

The protection order is still temporary. Her attorney asked for a continuance at the first hearing, and the next hearing is in a week. The conditions for dismissing the petition I've discussed with my attorney are: 1) Extend the current temporary protection order for two months 2) We both agree to seek individual therapy (a minimum of 6 sessions) 3) She must sign a release for me to communicate with her therapist 4) If and when her therapist feels it is appropriate, we will attend counseling together 5) If her therapist feels she is making progress developing new coping mechanisms, I agree dismiss the petition. If she is not making progress, I can ask for another extension or for it to be made permanent (1 year) at the next hearing. If all else fails, the no contact provision of her bond is a safety net.

Several things in the paragraph above concern me, but I want to make sure I understand things first.

Let me ask what you mean by "petition."  At first, I thought the numbered conditions you have above were to dismiss the restraining order.  I'm expecting my own restraining order to be in place for many many months, and the bar for lifting it is way higher than what you've got here.  But you are talking about dismissing a petition.  A petition for what?

Which leads me to another question.  What is the status of the criminal court proceeding?

I would be cautious about thinking that something on the criminal side, like a bond provision, is helpful.  The criminal side has a very high burden of proof -- beyond a reasonable doubt.  Anything on the criminal side could just evaporate, and you don't control the timing.  Do not rely on anything there.  I didn't understand all this at first, but there are many more tools you can control on the family side.  That is where you should shape your strategy.

One other thing -- your no contact is probably protecting you from this, but it is not uncommon for abused spouses to come under heavy pressure from the abuser to recant their statements to the police.  Never do this.  All of the police reports and your statements can be submitted in family court and you must remain rock solid in what you say happened.  It is not your job to protect your wife from the natural consequences of her actions.  In order to effect change for your family, you need every force possible on your side, with no doubts.  You may feel guilty and it may sound harsh, but in the end it is the best for your family, including her.

OK, let us know what the petition is for that you are talking about maybe dismissing, and let us know what the status is on the criminal stuff.

WW

[fontinalis]

Hi Wentworth! Sorry I wasn't clear. Some of it may be jargon that is different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It's all still new to me.

The same day I went to the police (which, you're right, was freaking hard!), I filed my petition for a Protection From Abuse order. I knew I couldn't risk her coming back after that, but didn't know there would be a NC provision in her bond. The NC provision covers me and our D12, because she was a witness. My victim coordinator says they feel they have a very strong case and are going to pursue it vigorously.

Back to the petition. To my relief, a temporary order was granted that day giving me sole custody of the kids. Her attorney sent me a letter ahead of the first hearing saying he was going to ask for a continuance. I knew the kids were hurting from not having their mom, no matter what kind of struggles she had as a mom with mental health issues, so at the hearing I asked for the temporary order to be modified to allow supervised visits. They have gone very well, and the kids are happier and calmer for it. Although the month break they had from mommy was very hard, it was probably best. She was surely feeling some very intense negative emotions at that time.

Our next hearing on the petition is in a week. I am not thinking of dismissing the petition any time soon. If she agrees to the conditions, we would ask the judge to continue the current temporary order in two month increments while we both seek therapy. I originally wrote much harsher conditions, but as I read SWOE and this site, I became afraid of antagonizing her and pushing her away from accepting help. My main goal, after protecting myself and my kids, is to encourage her to get the help she needs. If she doesn't accept or continue to honor the conditions, I have years of pictures of bruises and damage, loads of notes, messages, and a recording of a rage that I could present at the following hearing. I get sick to my stomach thinking about going through everything in front of her, but I'm confident I could get a permanent order.

Maybe I'm being too naive. Let me know your thoughts and if I still need to clear things up. Thank you so much for your support! I have a couple of loving family members I can any time, but they don't really understand. The support here means a lot to me!

[fontinalis]

Wentworth, I should have read your posts you shared the links to before I responded. I see a potential flaw with my approach now. I have a therapy session tomorrow morning, and I will definitely go over everything with her!

[fontinalis]

Sorry my thoughts are so scattered and I've skipped many questions. My wife's public defender asked for a continuance at the first criminal hearing to have time to secure a translator. Her English is very good, but I agree that having a translator would be best. I want her to have the opportunity to fully understand the gravity of the situation. So the initial hearing will be next week, almost two months after the incident.

Her public defender makes me very uncomfortable. He made a limited appearance for her at the first PFA hearing because she had not yet secured a private attorney, and that is when we first met. He almost stood on top of me while he questioned me and shook his head at me. Then he asked me to go into a conference room alone with him. Foolishly, I did. When I asked for contact information for the people who would be supervising the visits, he refused to give me anything. Later when I googled him, I found out he has been sanctioned by the state for ethics violations seven times and is currently on probation while the suspension of his license has been stayed! I feel so sorry for my wife.

Her new attorney in the civil PFA case is the exact opposite. She is great at communicating with me and has been very reasonable and polite.

Thank you, Wentworth, for everything you have written. I have read and re-read your replies. It's going to take a lot of time and effort to fix myself, after over a decade of living outside of reality. And I can only fix myself, not her. I do see now that how difficult things feel now is still far less difficult than life had been together.

[Turkish]

You might want to share the history of the criminal PD with your L.

[fontinalis]

Hi Turkish. It turns out her PD is locally pretty infamous. My attorney knew all about him already. When I mentioned that my wife's new attorney for the PFA is a much better communicator, she said "almost anyone in the universe would be a better communicator than him."

On a separate note, I dropped the kids off a couple of hours ago. She was in the car again. So beautiful... .But my feelings now are more mixed with a realistic view of how awful things actually were. I don't miss how that felt, or the fear I felt even when things were "OK."

Is there anyone out there who has come out on the other side of this with a healthy relationship? I know I am already becoming a better partner , parent, and person. But can I have any reasonable hope of her changing? I don't think I can do it alone. Sorry if this is the wrong place for this question.

[Turkish]

I get along with my ex now.  She's still pretty. We are going to take the kids to the aquarium on Sunday,  an hour's drive to Monterey. Three years ago? No way I'd do this.

Four years ago she left me for a much younger guy and married him.  She's been physically separated for a year. Mutual DV, not to mention the verbal and emotional abuse the kids witnessed... .FWIW, I think I miss the idea of her,  but not her. She asked to move back on last spring. No.  I was safe and detached enough from her in that she reached out to me for help with the DV, even though she knew I might report her.  The tools here work. The emotional impact on us is another matter, harder if kids are involved. It is possible to go the distance.  You're dealing with more drama up front than I did,  but you seem to be staying the course. 

[fontinalis]

Thank you, Turkish. I'm trying my best to navigate this, and your encouragement means a lot to me. This board and therapy are helping!

[Radcliff]

fontinalis,

It sounds like you have things pretty squared away.  Your approach of continuing the temporary order is similar to ours.  We did a three month continuance.

I have a couple more concerns about your conditions for dismissing the restraining order.  It's unclear to me whether these conditions are verbally discussed with the various people (lawyers and your wife) or if they're written down, or if they are simply your personal thoughts.  We have something called a "stipulation," which is essentially a negotiated contract between my wife and I that is amended to the restraining order and carries the court's authority.  That's where we put conditions that she'd attend therapy, attend a batterer's program, etc., and where we fine tuned things like allowing us to be closer than 300 yards for things like kids soccer games.

If you're putting things in written agreements, be very very careful.  Even if you and your lawyer are very good, it's a tough job to anticipate everything.  Do not give up control.

4) If and when her therapist feels it is appropriate, we will attend counseling together

Two big red flags on this one.  "her therapist" and "counseling together."  Her therapist is human and can't help but have a bias towards your wife.  It is not her job to think about what is best for you.  She doesn't know you well, nor is she likely to understand the full scope of the abuse.  You are still probably trying to wrap your head around it, and your wife certainly isn't going to give her therapist the straight scoop on what she's done.  Regarding "counseling together," take a look at this link about why marriage counseling is not recommended in cases of domestic violence.
 
Before our restraining order was served, my wife and I went to one marriage counseling session.  My wife was completely focused on discussing my faults in the relationship.  This was after I'd filed a police report, and a couple of weeks before the restraining order was served.  I got an up front and personal look at how badly marriage counseling might go.  We won't be ready for it for months, if ever.  I am not going to do it until we she can accept responsibility for the domestic violence and stop blaming me.  Until she can get the tools to listen and treat me with respect.  Basically, I'm not going until the playing field is level.  Once it is, I'll be happy to go.  Your wife may push hard for marriage counseling.  Her therapist may underestimate the abuse and advocate it.  Do not doubt yourself.  Talk to your therapist.  Under no conditions sign any legal document committing you to marriage counseling.

5) If her therapist feels she is making progress developing new coping mechanisms, I agree dismiss the petition.

Monster red flag.  See my note above about her therapist's bias.  And please for the love of Pete don't ever put anything like this in writing.  You and only you should decide when to dismiss the petition.  She needs to do more than make progress on developing new coping mechanisms.  She needs to have acknowledged responsibility for the abuse -- that it was wrong, and the impact it had on you.  And she needs to be demonstrating rock solid performance with the coping mechanisms.  I'm not an expert, and am still working this topic out for myself, but here's my current thinking.  If I'm on the Improving board in a year or two, and I'm continuing to hone my tool use to support my wife, occasionally helping her and dealing with slips using her and my shared knowledge of DBT tools, I'll count that as a huge victory, if we also have a shared understanding of the scope of the abuse and her role, and there is no hint of any abuse including things like threats, trashing me to the children, etc.  I don't want to rub her nose in anything, but if she is still denying the abuse happened or thinks I made something out of nothing, I don't think we can build a future on that.  My standards are very high -- higher than they would have been if we had been able to stop things several years ago before the abuse because so severe.  In order for me to go back despite the trauma I am dealing with, I need to be very confident in the future we can have.  Honestly, things aren't going very well now, but we're only two months into a one year program.  What are your thoughts on your situation?

Can you tell us a little about our wife's therapy?  Is she in an evidence-based program like DBT that has shown effectiveness with BPD?  Have you met her therapist?

Do you know about your therapists experience with domestic violence?  Does he or she specialize in it by any chance?  Many therapists put "domestic violence" on their directory profiles, but very few are true experts.  I am fortunate to have an expert who only works with DV victims.  I don't know that it's required, but having experienced the benefits, it's the only way I'll fly.  I really trust her to help me avoid going too fast, to help me recognize and set boundaries with an abusive spouse, and she also specializes in trauma recovery (such as EMDR) which I am going to need.

Finally, as I was finding my way out of the wilderness, I was wondering what actually was abuse?  I knew what felt bad.  I didn't know what I had a right to object to.  I didn't know what was merely unhealthy and what was abuse.  Even though you are safe now, you may be trying to make sense of what happened.  At some point in court or with a custody evaluator you may need to tell your story.  For a variety of reasons it can be helpful (though emotionally difficult) to understand the scope of what has happened, and what was abusive.  You may feel validated to hear that some of the things that hurt you actually are known harms in DV situations -- you are not alone in experiencing them.  You can learn more about the differences between healthy, unhealthy, and abusive behavior by looking at a very useful graphic called the Relationship Spectrum.  A particularly helpful page on abuse defined shows how many different forms of abuse there can be, in particularly non-physical controlling behaviors.

Finally, take a look at my thread for an update.  The texting with my wife has not been going well, and I'm going no contact for two days to take a break.  Watch out for the potential for any communications increases with your wife to exhaust you and trap you in the kinds of drama you had before.  Go very slowly, set boundaries, and be willing to retreat if need be.

Please keep us posted on how things are going with you.

WW

[Jeffree]

fontinalis,

Your story just gave me such flashbacks right down to the trying to save things and work it our in therapy.

I think the problem nons have is that we tend to manage life in a completely different way than BPDs. Whereas BPDs always act as if they are on defense against a sea of troubles, nons tend to see things more balanced.

BPDs are pretty infamous for saying things along the lines of, "This is all your fault." "Why are you being so mean to me?" "I won't do <insert thing> until you apologize."

While nons get in their own head and try to understand what is at the root of the drama and try to troubleshoot a solution.

Likewise, a BPD's and non's motives in therapy tend to be poorly aligned. Whereas a BPD will see this as an opportunity to have their lunacy vindicated and get leverage against the non, nons go into this with the hope that they along with their BPD can learn skills necessary for repairing the relationship and making it work much more effectively.

I am sure there are success stories, but when there are it makes me almost think that the BPD partner involved actually wasn't BPD after all, since it does seem that one of the prerequisites of BPD is for their relationships to be in constant turmoil.

You've got a long journey ahead of you. I wish you the best.

[fontinalis]

It's been a stressful few days... .The attorney who was representing me is no longer with the non-profit I'm getting legal help through. I didn't know anything was off until an email I sent on Saturday bounced back as an invalid address. The new attorney is supposed to call me sometime... .

There has been another continuance in the criminal trial. I had been having nightmares for several days that she would plead not guilty today. I was out of my mind with anxiety all day waiting to find out what happened. So another month before any updates there.

Wentworth, thank you for continuing to try to get reality through my think skull. I've gone through several more edits trying to fix the problems you have pointed out. I kept the marriage counseling in, but changed it to say that we would only try it if all three therapists (her's, mine, and the marriage counselor) feel it is appropriate, and we will discontinue it if she makes any attempts to deny, justify, or blame me for her behavior. I specified a therapist that works in the same office as my counselor, and who she says is the best in our area. She said that he would see right through any attempts at manipulation.

I changed the decision to dismiss the petition to:

If our therapists believe that she is making progress on developing new, healthier coping strategies, she has accepted responsibility for her own behavior, she acknowledges the damage her behavior has caused to me and our children, and she has consistently demonstrated these changes to me in our marriage counseling sessions, I agree to dismiss the petition.

My therapist specializes in DV victims and works with the DA's victim/witness program. I've been blown away by how she has gone above and beyond to help me. She has been absolutely wonderful.

As far as I know, my wife is not in therapy right now. I specified three therapists for her to choose from. They all have experience with BPD. Two utilize CBT, and one DBT.

Jeffree, as time passes and I am remembering more and more how awful life really was, I'm less and less hopeful about things working out. The emotional and verbal abuse I endured for thirteen years was the worst part. The physical abuse over the last three years was horrible too, and it is what finally led me to take these drastic mmeasures. Up until a week or so ago, I just wanted to fix things so badly, but now I'm not so sure. The success stories do seem to be few and far between.

I'm lonely, but I'm beginning to settle into this new life. And I'm working on making some big changes. I picked up a bicycle off of Craigslist this weekend and rode for the first time since a scarry accident six and a half years ago. Big shout-out to Lalathegreat for the encouragement to do that! And I'm applying to go back to school to get a teaching certificate. Time to live for me for the first time in a long, long time!

Thank you all so much for your support!

[Radcliff]

I kept the marriage counseling in, but changed it to say that we would only try it if all three therapists (her's, mine, and the marriage counselor) feel it is appropriate, and we will discontinue it if she makes any attempts to deny, justify, or blame me for her behavior. I specified a therapist that works in the same office as my counselor, and who she says is the best in our area. She said that he would see right through any attempts at manipulation.

Can I ask why you are writing marriage counseling into the agreement?  Has someone else suggested that you do so?  Or are you driving it in an effort to cover all the bases and create a comprehensive recovery plan?

These documents are very tough to write.  The more you write the more you risk boxing yourself in.  You want to be careful that you don't end up on the hook to do something.  Your normal inclination to be balanced and fair might make you inclined to sign up for obligations, but the you are a DV victim. The "rules of engagement" are different here.

What do you hope to gain by having marriage counseling in the document?

One option when it is very difficult to figure out contract language that will take into account future eventualities is to "remain silent" on an issue.  You just pretend in the document that it doesn't exist.  This can be a very helpful contract writing tool, deliberately deciding what not to cover.  Marriage counseling is far down on your list after safety, kid's needs, accountability for your wife, skills improvement for your wife, etc.  You're trying to codify Priority #5, and risk boxing yourself in.  Our stipulation is totally silent on marriage counseling.  In fact I don't think it has any obligations for me except to support the specified visitation, and go to my daughter's therapist with my wife twice.  I worked pretty hard to keep any obligations for me from creeping in (and I was usually the culprit who was almost putting them in with my desire to craft a comprehensive plan).

I changed the decision to dismiss the petition to:

If our therapists believe that she is making progress on developing new, healthier coping strategies, she has accepted responsibility for her own behavior, she acknowledges the damage her behavior has caused to me and our children, and she has consistently demonstrated these changes to me in our marriage counseling sessions, I agree to dismiss the petition.

Why are you putting in writing under what conditions you will dismiss the petition?  The conditions for dismissing the petition were at the top of my mind as well.  I felt tremendous guilt at taking such drastic action against my wife, and felt a strong urge to announce to everyone the path to getting the petition lifted.  But I felt so unfamiliar with the territory that I knew I could never write contract language that would foresee things well enough.  I was, and am, feeling things out as I go along.  You are the DV victim.  You have the right to have that restraining order in place as long as you think you need it.  At some point, your wife might have done a bunch of therapy, built up a case and gotten a good lawyer and want to challenge it in court.  She can do that.  One of the things I struggled with mightily in those first weeks was the fact that when things had hit the fan in the past, I had always been responsible for figuring out things for myself as well as my wife.  It is no longer our responsibility to figure out our wife's side of things.

That restraining order is a potent tool for you to get your family to where it needs to go.  Is the court asking you to put the conditions for lifting the petition in writing or are you volunteering to do that?  The fact that you do not have a lawyer right now, and are using pro-bono lawyers elevates your risk a bit.  Your new lawyer may or may not have the expertise and judgement to save you from yourself.  Do you think remaining silent on terms for lifting the restraining order might work in your situation?

My therapist specializes in DV victims and works with the DA's victim/witness program. I've been blown away by how she has gone above and beyond to help me. She has been absolutely wonderful.

Fantastic!  I am so happy for you that you've filled that role with a winner.  That is huge.

As far as I know, my wife is not in therapy right now. I specified three therapists for her to choose from. They all have experience with BPD. Two utilize CBT, and one DBT.

Now this is a place where I do think your efforts to engineer the situation could make a difference for your family.  The only hope of turning this around is if her therapy is effective.  One phrase you might consider inserting is "or another therapist or other mental health provider mutually agreed upon in writing."  That way you're not boxed into the three you know about.  Availability of these experts can be difficult.  You might also find another who looks better.  You don't want to have to do an amendment if the three you've listed don't work out.

Jeffree, as time passes and I am remembering more and more how awful life really was, I'm less and less hopeful about things working out. The emotional and verbal abuse I endured for thirteen years was the worst part. The physical abuse over the last three years was horrible too, and it is what finally led me to take these drastic mmeasures. Up until a week or so ago, I just wanted to fix things so badly, but now I'm not so sure. The success stories do seem to be few and far between.

This is totally normal.  It is really rough emotionally.  Give yourself some time.  This is why you don't want to box yourself in with any agreements.  One thing I found was happening was that my anxiety would peak alarmingly as I thought about whether the relationship would work out or not.  I was in a near panic trying to figure it out.  The thing that saved me was to remind myself that I don't have to decide today.  Or next week, or next month.  I don't even have to decide how to decide yet.  That decision is over the horizon.  Get things set up according to your plan, then switch gears and concentrate on working with your therapist to heal while your wife works with hers on her stuff.

I'm lonely, but I'm beginning to settle into this new life. And I'm working on making some big changes. I picked up a bicycle off of Craigslist this weekend and rode for the first time since a scarry accident six and a half years ago. Big shout-out to Lalathegreat for the encouragement to do that! And I'm applying to go back to school to get a teaching certificate. Time to live for me for the first time in a long, long time!

Awesome!  I'm firing up an old hobby as well.  It is wonderful and totally unnatural to do something for me!  I am sure you've been "feeding yourself last" for many years.

You are doing an astonishingly good job.  Yes, the success stories are few and far between, but some of them start out just like this.  Keep us posted!

WW

[fontinalis]

Wentworth, you're right that I've tried to come up with a comprehensive and "balanced" plan. One of my primary goals, after the safety of me and the kids, was to put everything in a way that would not discourage her from accepting help. I know this is extremely difficult to do, from experience.

My goal with including the marriage counseling, with conditions, was to have a safe space to be together again in, so I can see for myself if she is making progress. I have read the reasons why marriage counseling is not recommended in DV cases, at least initially, and I don't want to have it be something we do without progress first for sure. I think you may be right that remaining silent on marriage counseling could be the safest option.

What is her incentive to agree to any of this if there is no way out specified? She could just do the 1 year of the protection order (the duration if it is made "permanent" and not have to do anything to get out from under it.

I was told yesterday that she is in the process of applying for a diversion. If granted, it could require 12 months of batterers intervention and a mental health evaluation + therapy. Today I'm feeling fearful that she could put on the right face when she has to for 12 months, and then it's like nothing happened. She's not a perpetrator. I'm not a victim. And she will go on to abuse again.

Where are the stories from people who survived this type of situation with their relationship intact or at least some semblance of a functional family? What worked? What didn't?

Back to something you have said several times, Wentworth. I don't have to make these decisions today! I need to calm down and slow down. It's hard... .

[Radcliff]

What is her incentive to agree to any of this if there is no way out specified? She could just do the 1 year of the protection order (the duration if it is made "permanent" and not have to do anything to get out from under it.

This is where you need very solid legal advice.  Permanent orders can keep getting extended.  In order to work this situation, you need to know exactly how strong your position is.  In the early stages, and possibly still, I was underestimating how strong my position was because I was still deprogramming myself from all the abuse, and I'm not a legal expert. But your wife has criminal charges pending, and even without that, your extensive documentation is powerful.  The history of those criminal charges, wherever they may end up, plus your balanced and thoughtful approach to doing the best thing for your family, lend credence to all your other documentation.

Her incentive is the RO and potentially her desire to save the relationship.  By helping to set up all of these things -- the therapy, the batterer's program, you are very clearly offering the direction for the way out.  That does not clearly define the end point for when she is finally out, and that may be uncomfortable for her, but she made this bed.  You need to be OK with things becoming pretty uncomfortable for her.  I know that even if you end up splitting someday you will probably not stop loving her, and no matter what the circumstances it will always be hard to watch her suffer.  But if there is to be any hope of reconciliation, and indeed for her to get back to full parenting, she is going to have to become very uncomfortable to make the changes she needs to make.

Speaking of parenting -- this came up for me today.  Part of me is feeling bad that this situation is keeping my wife from being a full parent, especially given that I was the primary target of the abuse.  Outside of the abuse, my wife is a great mother, a really wonderful one (though I must acknowledge the awkwardness of that statement).  But our kids need their father intact and whole.  Her abuse of me was a grave breach of her duties as a parent.  As horrible as I feel, and as sad as I feel that mother-child time has been severely cut, this is a consequence of her actions.

It might help to explain a little more about my situation.  When discussing this situation with a couple of relatives and friends who are looking out for our whole family - my wife, me, and the kids, this is how I've described my approach to the supervised visit requirement.  I want what's best for the kids, particularly D12.  I don't want to win, or be right, or punish my wife.  I am not an expert.  I want experts to help me understand when the right time is to lift the supervisor requirement.  When I explain this, they have said they believe I'm acting with integrity, and while the endpoint is unknown, they appreciate that I'm getting outside input and am not just making a powerplay based on my own ideas.  Now, I'm in the process of trying to gather that expert input and put that plan into effect.  One of the things I'm learning, though, despite the fact that on several of these decisions I'd like to have the experts just tell me what to do, is that in some ways I'll have more control and decision making responsibility than I was hoping to have.  The experts can tell me the wide bounds -- what's way too lenient or way too harsh -- but nobody knows the situation like I do, nobody cares for these people like I do, and nobody else in an influencing position will have to live with the consequences of the decisions like I will.  Part of why I'm saying this is that I wouldn't be surprised if you, too, were hoping that the experts would lift some of the parenting and marriage decisions off of your shoulders.  Who wouldn't want that!  Our roles as reluctant leaders seems like it will continue for the foreseeable future.

The kids is the first issue; I was mostly speaking to that above.  The second issue is the relationship.  While I do want our involved friends and family to see me treating my wife with respect, as each day passes, I feel less and less obligated to anyone but myself regarding my criteria for recommitting to the relationship.  It has been easier for me to see that the experts can't make this decision for me, though I certainly plan to extract as much knowledge, perspective, and advice from them as I humanly can.  I have given my wife a direction, and she appears to be heading in that direction.  Even I don't know the end point yet.

I was told yesterday that she is in the process of applying for a diversion. If granted, it could require 12 months of batterers intervention and a mental health evaluation + therapy. Today I'm feeling fearful that she could put on the right face when she has to for 12 months, and then it's like nothing happened. She's not a perpetrator. I'm not a victim. And she will go on to abuse again.

Yes.  This could happen.  I'm not seeing the diversion program as a threat -- a more traditional criminal penalty doesn't really seem that helpful.  But the idea of getting to the end of 12 months of treatment and appearing to be better but not really being better, that's worrisome.  Consistently from my talks with therapists and DV intervention people, I've been told that this is not uncommon.  I think my wife is brilliant, motivated, and capable of great compassion, so I am hopeful, but I am also prepared for this outcome.  It is in fact one of my worst fears.  I need to be able to detect that she has not truly reformed, and I need to have protections in place.  Presumably this would mean divorce, continued protections for me, and a custodial arrangement suitable for the situation.  Your wife is not just going to pop out of that program, get the order lifted, and show up at the house the next day.  Not if you're on your game and you've got a decent lawyer.  Again, I think the fact that you don't have a lawyer at this particular point is hobbling your long term planning.

Where are the stories from people who survived this type of situation with their relationship intact or at least some semblance of a functional family? What worked? What didn't?

We are unicorns.  If you find someone who has pulled this off let me know.  It is theoretically possible, and I'm going to give it everything I've got, but I haven't come across any examples of success yet.  I have heard that they may exist.

Let me ask you about your lawyer situation.  You said you had a new low-cost lawyer that is about to be assigned.  Is a market-priced lawyer a financial possibility for you?  You are going to need someone who is not only experienced with domestic violence but who is creative, be able to tackle tough new challenges, and be effective at working with you and communicating with you.  If an expert lawyer is not financially feasible, consider whether it might be possible to supplement your subsidized lawyer with a few hours of an expert's time.  Or, even better -- many market priced lawyers do pro bono work on the side.  You might be able to find the best person in town for your situation who could be a game changer for you with a few hours of pro bono advice, consulting for you and your assigned lawyer.  Now is the time to be super-proactive about the quality of your legal team.

I can't believe it, but I've just searched this thread and haven't found a mention of the book, "Splitting," by Bill Eddy.  Its main focus is divorcing someone with BPD, but I still believe much of it would be important for you to benefit from.  For example, there is a chapter specifically on finding a lawyer.

You are making good progress.  Keep up the good work.  Make sure to take care of yourself as well.

WW

[fontinalis]

I'm afraid pro bono is all I can afford. I'm thankful there are services for people like me at all. For too long I assumed there was no help out there.

Still no call back more than 48 hours later, though. This anxiety is too much... .

I am this unicorn: https://www.amazon.com/ThinkGeek-Easy-Open-Canned-Unicorn-Meat/dp/B0089KZPNU

[fontinalis]

She filled for divorce. As painful as our marriage was for so much of the time, I still can't help but feel heartbroken. At least the path forward is a little more clear now. It's time for me to say goodbye to this board and move on to the failed relationship boards. Thank you for everyone's support!

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, I am so sorry to hear this news.  Yes, it does make the path forward clearer, allowing you to start on the way to your new destination sooner, but you share three wonderful children, and there must have been plenty of good times as well.  I am sure that it feels devastating.

Your kids are still young, and have plenty of time to hit a new normal with you in a peaceful home.  If you are at a loss on what to do with them now, you'll be amazed at how much it helps all of you to just concentrate on their basic physical and emotional needs -- feeding them, playing with them, making sure they feel safe and cared for.  With my D12, she hasn't been that receptive to me talking about the issues directly most times, but I've been surprised at how effective the basics seem to be in getting her to feel safe and happy and me to feel like not a bad parent.  Playing a board game, staying in for a family movie night, goofing over dinner, etc.  You may also try asking D12 about her feelings, and validating any she expresses, as well as offering to answer any questions she has.

Have you heard back from your new lawyer?

One thing you might want to do is to go to the local library and check out some divorce books.  Understanding the process can help make it less intimidating.  If it's not easy to do in the town where you live when you have the kids, you can get a library card for the town where you work and go on your lunch hour.

I see you haven't posted on any other boards since this post here.  If you post on one of those boards, please post a link here to the new thread, and it will give the folks who have been supporting you this thread a heads up of where to go to continue supporting you.  I would recommend that you post on the Family Law board soon, introducing yourself and your situation.

Best,

WW

[fontinalis]

Thank you so much, Wentworth! Your care for my situation really touches me, especially while you are busy going through your own hell! Here is my new post on the legal board: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=319549.new#new

My new attorney called Thursday, and we met yesterday before the hearing. She seems wonderful and very thorough. She had obviously studied all of the evidence I shared, and she said I did a great job putting it together. She's confident we have a strong case.

In addition to SWOES, I've read Splitting and The High Conflict Couple. I say "read," but I cheated. The way I found to avoid exposing my kids to too much of this situation was an app called Hoopla that allows me to download audio books from my local public library, so I can listen during my commute and on weekends when she has the kids.

I actually have the kids for the first weekend in a month. Her attorney emailed last minute to cancel the visitation because none of the supervisors were available. I feel for her, but I don't feel guilty anymore. I did not put her in the situation where she cannot see her kids without supervision. It's liberating to have this changed mindset. But I still feel like crap.

The members of this forum have been a tremendous support, and I'm so thankful to have you all.

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, while I am sad for the turn of events, I am truly impressed with how diligent you have been in responding to these events and in taking advantages of all of the resources available to you.  This bodes well for your ability to help achieve the best outcome possible for your family.

I think you mentioned that your wife has the kids every weekend?  You might want to get some input on custody time arrangements going forward.  Giving her every weekend really blocks your ability to do fun activities with the kids that can usually only be done on the weekend if you work a traditional Monday-Friday work week.

WW