Feeling so incredibly stuck...

[Ollie5]

I would value some feedback from some of you who have been there... .
I have been married for 29 years and my pwBPD and I have 5 children together - 4 are grown and out of the home.  We have struggled in our relationship since year one with contentious arguements at least 2-3 times a month for most of our marriage.  We have superficially raised the idea of divorce at least every other month for years.  For most of those years she has presented as being always angry at me - glares, sarcasm, eye-rolling, etc.  When I would try to bring up any real issue, she would become reactive almost immediately. It would then escalate rapidly into twisted logic of b/w thinking, blame, projection, guilt statements, etc.  I learned over time to generally just withdraw at this point.  She then would give me the silent treatment for 5-6 days until I would apologize, whether I felt it was my fault or not.  I felt sick doing this especially when it wasn’t my fault and knowing I was rewarding the pattern, but it was the only way to end this painful destructive stance.  About 3 years ago, I wised up and stopped doing this - I told her if she wanted to be unhappy, she was welcome to - I was going to have a good day anyways and tried to just be pleasant and go on with life.  However, I knew that with all this going on, we were essentially living parallel lives and I felt incredibly lonely and unhappy.  I’m sure I worked too much as at least there I felt valued and felt some sense of order in my life.
A year ago I met a woman at work who was incredibly emotionally mature and who I had so very much in common with.  She’d previously left an abusive relationship and had an incredible capacity to connect and understand and we felt an incredibly deep love between us.  I moved out of my home and into my own apartment with the intent to divorce. I had about a 4-5 month intimate friendship with this woman but we kept it at that level as I was not divorced and wanted to honour that status.  In that time, my pwBPD was talked by a family member into starting to see a counselor (which she had always refused in the past). Over the next few months I could see she was making progress working on herself and I started to wonder if we could possibly make it work.  In the mean time, she hacked my e-mails and found some very personal letters between me and this other woman. She was initially very angry but then later said she still loved me and wanted me to come back.  About 7 months ago I broke it off with this intimate friend from work (we remain just primarily casual friends now).  I have remained separated in my own apt. now for over a year and we have both been seen our own individual counselors and have even started seeing an EFT couples counselor together.  We started dating each other again also at that time. 
In spite of all these efforts over the past year including many of the techniques from this website, we still have tremendous struggles.  Her toxic behaviors of the constant negativity and the silent treatments have mostly dissipated, but we are still getting into arguments at least every week or two and she slips back into the twisted and distorted logic and blames most of it on me.  I would desperately love to work it out with her for the sake of the family and as I still see much good in her - she can be very kind and giving, is a good mother and she is still very attractive.  But at the same time it has been 29 years of conflict, I have and continue to feel so incredibly lonely and I feel so profoundly stuck.  Additionally I actually work in the mental health field, have a very demanding and draining day job and then feel that I often am faced with more of the same in the evenings and weekends which is just exhausting and burning me out... .  I would love to save the family and marriage if I could, but admit I am on the edge of calling a lawyer and proceeding with a divorce in spite of my deep guilt and sadness.  I feel caught between staying and leaving and can’t seem to decide which direction to go... . 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

hi Ollie5 and

wow, twenty nine years. you have invested a lot. i can hear how this weighs on you. im sorry to hear youre feeling lonely, thats tough; i want you to know youve found a very supportive community, you dont have to do this alone, and that we are here for you every step of the way.

so it sounds like youre saying that the constant arguments are the primary conflict right now, do i have that right? i hear you. constant arguing is really exhausting both personally and in how it takes a toll on a relationship. i fought hard with my partner on a near daily basis, that was incredibly exhausting, and that was only for three years!

one thing i learned that i wish had sunk in at the time is that it takes two people to argue. an argument isnt something you are forced to participate in. i know you know that, i just know when i was in it, i really felt like i had no choice.

another thing i learned is that a lot of what i was doing was actually inflaming the argument, or my partner, just driving hours long circular arguments (we have a great workshop on the subject here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0). if i had known nothing more than about not JADEing, for example, i think i would have had a heck of a lot more peace, and my relationship would have had more space for love and enjoyment. can you tell us a bit more about how these arguments play out, and about which techniques youve discovered that youve been trying?

i do hear lots of room for hope, especially that the two of you are getting individual and couples counseling. how is the counseling going?

[Ollie5]

Thanks Once Removed - feedback appreciated.  Yes, they primary conflict now it the arguing, although she will still not respond to me for several days after an argument often.  The arguments probably most often start either when we try to discuss issues related to parenting our one child still at home (our differences in parenting perspectives has always been a huge trigger) but also around our relationship and how to proceed.  Often in the course of our discussion she will pick up on just 1-2 words, take them completely out of context, fixate on them and then she gets into all the various forms of distortions and allegations.  I appreciate your comments on the excruciatingly long, circular arguements.  These sometimes go on for 3-5 hours or even longer with little to no productive outcome and lead to tremendous frustration and exasperation. 
I have been working a lot at noticing when she is starting to escalate and then working to empathize and validate, which does help to de escalate her to a degree sometimes.  I have also been working on the PUVAS strategies including validating but also setting the boundary and sharing my reality of the situation. 
I appreciate you link and thoughts around not JADEing.  When I have attempted to just stay calm and take a time out in the past, she has become highly agitated accusing me of never finishing a discussion or of “always leaving me”.  If I don’t take the bait and leave anyways, she will later use this against me claiming that I was the one who became highly agitated and then stormed out of there... . 
The counselling is going just so-so.  I think her counselor is OK - but when I have talked to him (with her permission), he admitted that he doen’t really ever focus on the past and he is generally just very supportive, so he had never seen her escalate.  I think he was quite surprised when I mentioned the BPD.  She met with me and my counselor and that was very validating for me.  My counselor has worked with a lot of people with PDs and their partners and very quickly picked up on the BPD without my prompting.  It was also one of the few times I have seen my pwBPD escalate with someone other than me, so it was helpful to be able to observe this third hand and to validate my experiences.  The couples counselling is fairly new - I’m not sure our counselor has the read of the dynamics yet... . 
Do you have suggestions of other tools when the arguements start to escalate?  Also how do you suggest to respond when she has an entirely different recollection of a discussion or arguement than I have, filled with various b/w thinking, projections, generalizations, blaming, etc and insists that she has just as much right to her reality as I have to mine and uses this as the launching point to our next discussion? 

[Radcliff]

Hi Ollie5,

I can relate both to the level of commitment and the frustration of a 30 year relationship with a pwBPD.  You and I have been at it almost the same length of time.  It sounds like you have put a lot of effort into learning.  Have you by any chance read, "The High Conflict Couple," by Alan Fruzzetti?  Fruzzetti is a BPD expert, and it is particularly written with BPD in mind.  I found it to be exceptionally relevant to my marriage.

WW

[waverider]

  Also how do you suggest to respond when she has an entirely different recollection of a discussion or arguement than I have, filled with various b/w thinking, projections, generalizations, blaming, etc and insists that she has just as much right to her reality as I have to mine and uses this as the launching point to our next discussion? 

She has every right, and you have every right to then not engage in the follow on argument based on her reality. That is not her having her reality, that is her imposing it upon you. Her distortion and unrealistic projections are just part of what goes on in her head, to try to deny that is like trying to deny gravity exists... Its pointless, you dont have to convince her of your reality and neither do you have to buy hers.

There will never be complete "unity", you will be stand alone individuals and that takes extra strength for each of you. There will always be dysfunction, but if you can avoid banging heads then that dysfunction does not need to be toxic. The less you challenge your wife the less she will be so reactive. "Stuff" will always happen but it will pass quicker with less damage if it is not contested.

Sometimes the best answer is a smile and a hug no matter what crazy nonsense they may come out with. Most of the time they are pro actively reacting to what they think you might say.

Councillors will come and go and your wife will likely be just the same,. I know its validating to get an outsider to "get it", but it is typically short lived

[Ollie5]

Thanks Wentworth, nice to hear from others who can relate to the very many years of investment in a relationship.  No, I haven’t seen that article by Fruzzetti but will be sure to read it - thanks!  Any other suggestions of “foundational” enlightening articles or videos are welcome as well... .

[Ollie5]

Thanks Waverider, that is very sage counsel!  I particularly like your thoughts on acceptance with boundaries - not having to accept her imposition of her reality on me, while recognizing the futility of challenging hers. 
I also appreciate your counsel on strategies on how to seperate the dysfunction from the toxicity and how to avoid that. 

Do you or others have any suggestions on how to deal with the issues related to child rearing?  I am often ok with accepting her reality as hers and mine as mine and then attempting various descalation strategies while vocally or non-vocally agreeing to disagree.  My biggest struggle often is how to approach issues related to the kids (and sometimes finances).  When it comes to them, decisions and actions need to be taken.  This often demands that we come to some sort of consensus for their sake.  I am fine with her having her own reality if it is relatively benign and is primarily affecting her.  However when it affects the kids (not in an abusive way but more often in a profoundly permissive and enabling way), then it is of much greater concern to me. 

[Radcliff]

Ollie5,

Any other suggestions of “foundational” enlightening articles or videos are welcome as well... .

You might be interested in this page which discusses Borderline Personality Disorder and includes a 45-minute video that introduces BPD and talks about how effective treatment can be.

Regarding the kids, that is a tough one.  It can be very difficult to make decisions and follow through on them with a pwBPD.  Can you give us a specific example and perhaps we can work it through with you?

WW

[juju2]

Ollie,

My heart goes out to you.

11 months ago me and my pwBPD, separated after 10 yrs living together, i thought to work on ourselves.  We had become toxic and we knew this telationship wasnt good, we needed a new start... .

4 months ago he told me he is dating others... .
In november, we started couples counseling.  For me that was a miracle, because we had gotten so far apart... .

The therapist is having us start at the beginning, she knows about BPD, and she found out we had no foundation of friendship... .when we met, it was love bombing, i never knew someone could love me that much, it was cloud 9, he pretty much moved in w me after two wks, we were like peanut butter and jelly... .

after about 3 years, his BPD was in full swing, i didnt have tools to deal w him, my self esteem went down... .

All i can tell you is i would have never suggested the separation, because now, i dont know if we will ever make it back.

There is so much support here, and if you find a counselor who knows about BPD, you can make it
The grass isnt greener on the other side... .

My two cents.  I am reading the book divorce remedy, its great! About how one person can make the r/s change. 

As nons, we are the keepers of hope.

i wish i could be where you are, before everything went maybe beyond repair.  I dont know what our future holds.

if you have patience, can work on yourself, have an open mind, have a big picture, notice and celebrate small signs of improvement... .
take good care of yourself, do things that make you happy!

j

[Fenrir]

Courage and Endurance, Patience and Perseverance.

I have trouble imagining 29 years of this story which sounds much like mine (10 years into it) and it raises the big question for me of how much more can I endure? I mean things shift but then they shift backwards... .is there progress and how is it measured? For us the answer is yes but at the moment my pain is unbearably intense and we're in a super difficult place. I assume it'll change but that is a rational response that doesn't sooth the emotional body which doesn't understand time.

Maybe the basic talk therapy with validation will provide something helpful, even if it can't get down to the root problems. I experience the same frustration with my wife seemingly unwilling to go anywhere past our 10 years together, even though all her relational and emotional patterns go back to childhood and family history. Drives me nuts and leaves me feeling like I have responsibility for doing all the deep and painful psychospiritual.

I resonate with your sense of loneliness as we are stuck in a devaluation phase and all my insecurity and fear are consuming me. She appears normal and stable (which is unusual as normal pattern is more volatile a bit like you described), an taking care of the family acting job with some sort of cold and calculating supersonality/defense hiding just below the surface.

Before this strange phase (now 6 weeks of disconnection) arguments were decreasing dramatically. She was keeping me more on the inside of her circle when in a state of fear/anxiety and therefore we stayed connected with the scary world "out there." I've learned that not becoming defensive makes an enormous difference when she is trying to instigate conflict. She instigated conflict partially to release tension from fear, sadness, etc and to project it out and get rid of it, and I'm an appropriate target having proven that I'll never "fight" back in a "mean way" or reject her afterwards. Don't Dexify (defend, explain, or justify) was a helpful term in the When Hope is Not Enough book. I sounds like trying to take space doesn't always work for youbut I think there are ways of doing it that might. I tend to say "There's too much upset to speak clearly about this, I'm not thinking strait either. I'll be upstairs if you need me for anything." Then I usually go and sit with the kids and meditate while they sleep. Strange but that helps me feel better (and safer, though she will sometimes bring her anger into the room and try to keep talking at me). After some time I may go find her and not apologise but make a bid for connection such as "would you like to watch some Whose Line is it Anyway and do massages?"I drop the subject for the moment, avoid apologising for anything that is not directly my responsibility, and focus on establishing connection. Try to be like the kids who simply put the upset aside, and move on.

Thanks for sharing, it certainly helps me to know I'm not the only one in this labyrinth!

Fenrir