Conflicted in 18 year marriage—need guidance on handling verbal abuse. PART 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Thanks FF

Been through divorce before and almost finished one with her before she fired her attorney.

 

.   Let me know if you will take steps to live a life without yelling.  Understand I'll be taking steps to achieve a life without yelling."

If interested she would  ask what steps.  I don't even know what they are.
You understand there is more then just yelling.  My daughter wants nothing to do with her.  That causes anger that is let out on me. I think she feels in competition with her and that I love her more and will do anything for her but not for my wife. Everything causes anxiety. Tells me everything scares her (hence anxiety). Keeps going on about  and obsessed about what  happens to her if I become incapacitated and can't pay the bills. I was going to put that in my trust but then she started to get worse and tell me to get a divorce so I did not change my trust.  If I had, something else would have taken the place of that complaint.  She does lie and make everything bigger and worse then it is. She constantly complains about me or something. So you see it is not just yelling but that probably effects me the most.

[oinoxn]

Thanks FF

Been through divorce before and almost finished one with her before she fired her attorney.

 

.   Let me know if you will take steps to live a life without yelling.  Understand I'll be taking steps to achieve a life without yelling."

If interested she would  ask what steps.  I don't even know what they are.
You understand there is more then just yelling.  My daughter wants nothing to do with her.  That causes anger that is let out on me. I think she feels in competition with her and that I love her more and will do anything for her but not for my wife. Everything causes anxiety. Tells me everything scares her (hence anxiety). Keeps going on about  and obsessed about what  happens to her if I become incapacitated and can't pay the bills. I was going to put that in my trust but then she started to get worse and tell me to get a divorce so I did not change my trust.  If I had, something else would have taken the place of that complaint.  She does lie and make everything bigger and worse then it is. She constantly complains about me or something. So you see it is not just yelling but that probably effects me the most.

[formflier]

Solid work getting set up in a new thread... .and for using PM. 

Good to get used to all the tools.

I totally agree there is more.  Yelling is just obvious.  Addressing yelling will likely influence the other stuff as well.

I'm obviously a confident person and I'm trying to give you hope.  I also don't want to portray that in a false way. 

She may decide she wants to yell and walk away from you.  You just never know. 

I'm having a hard time imagining how stopping being part of the yelling (a decision you can make without her) is bad for you or is bad for the relationship, if you stay together or if you split up.

Almost a no brainer.

In the short run, it may make her "madder" as she tries to get you back in line.  "Extinction burst" is the name for it.  That's likely too much detail for you at this point.

Can you think of a downside to walking away from the yelling?

FF

[oinoxn]

Can you think of a downside to walking away from the yelling?

Uh, peace and quiet.  Oh, that's a good thing.

She got hysterical with me earlier crying for at least 10 minutes.  Got in her car and drove off.  I then got a voicemail crying saying she has 3 bottles of pain pills with her, she cant take it anymore, she cant take me anymore, Bye.   She has been suicidal in the past.  I use to drive and try and find her.  I stopped that last year.  After the phone message I just realized I am dealing with a 2 year old having a tantrum.  The difference is that the 2 year old grows out of it.

This morning had to do with helping her rent a place.  After she was going on about it I finally said, I am not doing this today.  Then came the hysterical crying (amazing how she can do that) and saying I want to throw her out on the street.

I earlier said this is day 57 for her re our 60 day move out date of March 31.  It is day 67.

We do have to move apart.  I would be an idiot again to move with her as she shows no willingness to see her part and work on it along with me working on my part of this.  I cant even approach her about it.  I know that since she is low functioning and we will be living a short distance from each other that moving apart will not be the last of her.

[formflier]

  The difference is that the 2 year old grows out of it.
 

So... .back off and give her a chance to grow out of it.

Let her get her own place to rent... don't help her.

Let her make mistakes and learn from them.  She is used to being rescued.

She is used to being able to yell at you... .and still have you do nice things for her.  So... .if that is the case, why should she be nice?  Seriously, she gets to yell and have her cake too.

Take away her cake and give her the choice.  She may choose to not have cake or she may stop yelling.

There is no "approaching" her about it.  You stop your part... .she will get a clue... .eventually.

FF

[oinoxn]

Thanks FF.    Makes a lot of sense.net is nice to come home and no one here yelling.  She has been gone since 1 pm or so.  Maybe she won't be back until after I go to sleep. Terrible to say that about wife but still nice to be in quiet home.

[oinoxn]

She got hysterical with me earlier crying for at least 10 minutes.   Got in her car and drove off.  I then got a voicemail crying saying she has 3 bottles of pain pills with her, she cant take it anymore, she cant take me anymore, "Bye"]

That was about 1pm.  It is now 8:30 pm.  It looks like she used her cell phone around 4:30 pm and not since and not home yet.  She has tried suicide before, more then once.   I don't know what to do.  It may be to make me upset or it could be real.

[oinoxn]

I called 911 after the post above.  Police came and took a report. Same officer as last Thursdays incident.  3:00 AM my time now.  She is not home.  Her friends have not heard from her since before she left me the voice message. No, she is not having an affair.  In 18 years she has never had that impulse nor shopping.

[formflier]

   

OK... .you called the police and they took a report.  That's a solid step.

Can you log on and see if she has used a bankcard or her phone?  Any other way to try and figure out where she is? 

Shifting gears:  What was last Thursday's incident?  (I'm still learning your story... .trying to put all this together)

Big picture:  Sounds like you are taking reasonable steps to help locate her and verify her safety.  Please keep yourself safe, try to get sleep, keep up with your meds and all that.

Any history of her doing this before?  How did it turn out?  Was it similar?

FF

[oinoxn]

She has a history of suicide attempts.  It looks like she used her phone this morning so that is all I need to know.  I will do what I had planned to do today before all of this.

To make a long story short last Thursday at night we were in the car and she got mad and got out of the car and started walking away.  This has happened before so I drove off in the other direction.  When I turned around (no street lights and a lot of homeless in the area) I could find her.  I eventually saw her and she was crying and saying she didn't trust me, I want to hurt her and I want to lock her up.  I called 911 and police met me and looked for her.  We could not find her.  She called me the next morning at 6:30AM from a hotel about a mile  where I last saw her.  She eventually showed up that afternoon.

[formflier]

 
OK... .  

I have a clearer picture now.  Hang in there.  This is tough stuff to deal with.   I do want to commend you that you didn't go rescue her and let her make her own way home.

What was it like when she got home? 

What do you think it will be like when she gets home today?

Are these suicide attempts documented via text messages?  Have you looked into the standards to get somebody inpatient treatment in the area?

Are there other suicide attempts or runaways that have happened?  Any idea what triggered these?

As in, is there a consistent trigger... .this happens and she is sure to say she will attempt suicide.

FF

[AskingWhy]

One of my techniques for my uBPD/uNPD H's yelling/dysregulating is to walk away.  It's called disengaging.

You don't validate their raging with a response.

If you don't engage, the pwBPD has no ammunition.  No tinder to the conflagration.

Winston Churchill also said, "There is nothing more invigourating than to be shot at withour result."

[oinoxn]

She has not returned home.  A friend of hers emailed me today that she heard from her.   Friend was very pissed she put people through this as police called the friend at 11 pm last night.  She is going to tell my wife when she talks to her how self centered this was and didn't even have courtesy to call her friend yesterday and just let her know she was ok.  She is going to tell her she only thinks about herself and does what she wants no matter how it effects others.  Well, one less friend for her after that conversation.

I don't know where she is.  She emailed that her phone battery was low and she didn't have a charger.  I didn't ask where she was.

When she comes home I won't say a thing as I think verbal abuse  will commence.  The first communication I had since she was missing was telling me about her low battery.

She left voicemail yesterday about having 3 bottles of pain pills.  Can't take it or me anymore,. goodbye.   She was hospitalized for 2 other attempts and took pills another couple of times but not enough.

Inpatient TX has to be involuntary unless they say they will harm others or themselves.  Police have been here before and told me she knows what not to say to them.

The trigger is not being able to handle life.  She needs valium for teeth cleaning.  Maybe that's normal but I never heard of that before.

I do walk away when She follows me.  It upsets her more that I don't respond.

[oinoxn]

Emailed don't I want to know where she is.  I didn't ask but she said a block away. I still didn't ask.

[formflier]

I commend you for not rescuing.  Solid work.

Frankly, I'm trying to think of what would be the best thing to say (or not say) when she gets home.

Needless to say, verbal abuse should equal walking away (always always always).

I wonder if some kind of sit down and listen for a while (assuming she is kinda calm) is better.  At some point it would seem reasonable to ask her what her actions of the last few days mean for the relationship? 

I wouldn't suggest anything (or give her a speech like the friend is proposing). 

What normally happens when she comes home like this?  Perhaps that is the place to start, so we don't go over old ground again.

Hang in there... .Good job not rescuing.

FF

[oinoxn]

She is staying at a hotel.   I did help her look at a condo today.     She was saying how expensive it is but we can't be together

A bit ago asked if I wanted to see where she is staying (luxury hotel a short walk from me. I did not respond.  Then emailed she will always love me and take care of me if I get sick.  Said didn't mean the mean things she ssid.  I agree that we can't live together.  She even got nasty when I was looking at the condo with her.

[Jeffree]

Oinoxn,

With all this worry and discussion about her and her actions, it's easy to lose perspective on how we're doing and feeling.

So, I ask you, sir: How are you feeling?

You know, legitimately, how are you? How's your health? How's your mood? What's been going on for you?

J

[formflier]

Why not let her go with her own realtor?

FF

[oinoxn]

I am feeling best when not being yelled, retreating to my room when yelled at or leaving the house.  She can be screaming at me one moment and then asking where are WE going to live the next moment.  When I told her again today that I can’t live with she predictably started screaming at me.  When I returned home after a couple of hours she threw in that WE re moving.

If I left it up to her to get a realtor nothing will happen as I don’t think she really wants to live without me.  Who else can she verbally beat up on them?  One rental for her fell through which could have been due to her sabatouging her move without me.  The landlord was a bit odd but it was not beyond her to make up some of the things she said he said to her.

[oinoxn]

Am I the only one that hides my copy of “Stop Walking On Eggshells” and keeps it to myself I am reading it?

[formflier]

Big picture stuff:  Don't save them from their inability or lack of motivation to do normal adult things.

Figuring out a living situation would fall into that.  Let her call a realtor and fail or sabotage.  Let her call 20.

You figure out your own situation and move forward.

I do think it wise that when you select a new place to live that you consider the layout of the house, such as separate bedrooms that are not right next to each other and/or perhaps an office that is away from other living areas.

I'm not suggesting you should live with her in your next move.  I am suggesting it is unwise to rent a place without considering the possibility that she may end up there.

FF

[oinoxn]

You are right on.  Had the same conversation with friend yesterday.  Odds are she will not find a place and I am not the type that could move and leave her here when landlord moves back in.

In my conversation with friend I said I cannot live like this,  I am 70,and I don’t want to go out living my last years like this.  I said to him if she moves with me the only thing I can think of is moving forward with divorce as I assume I would be able to get her out then.

I keep telling her I can’t live like this, I can’t live with her and she then yells and threatens.  I leave and come back after relaxing for a few hours and she is back to WE looking for a rental.

I said the other day she is madly in love with me for a couple of hours then I am the epidimy of evil.  I said don’t love me, think of me and treat me as always being evil, at least my dealings with her would be consistent and I can adapt and say nothing and stay in my room.

How come no one answers my question about the Walking on Eggshells book.

Thanks for your input and concern.

[oinoxn]

She is 67 and has only lived alone for a short time in her life.  I know she is scared.  Has told me I need to change.  When I ask what is she going to change of course she says nothing.  She is very low functioning.

[formflier]

I keep telling her I can’t live like this, I can’t live with her and she then yells and threatens. 

What you tell her and what you DO are not matching.  She focuses much more on what you do.

What are the implications for this knowledge?


FF

[oinoxn]

All I can do is look for a place for me and for her.  I don’t know what else I can do. I keep telling her I won’t live with her,  she screams and later talks about US finding a place.  I tell her again I can’t live with her and the circle starts over.

[formflier]

All I can do is look for a place for me and for her.  I don’t know what else I can do. I keep telling her I won’t live with her,  she screams and later talks about US finding a place.  I tell her again I can’t live with her and the circle starts over.

Why talk to her any further about it.  You know what she will do.  She knows what you will do.

Until someone changes the dance... .the dance won't change.

She has not motivation or reason to change the dance.  Do you?

Think about this.

Are there really no other options other than looking for a place for both of you?

FF

[Voltaire]

How come no one answers my question about the Walking on Eggshells book.

You are not the only one who hides it, and you are wise to do so

I keep my BPD library in the Kindle app on my phone. The kids have access to that library on their devices. My D16 once changed the passcode on her phone to hide her BPD reading from my wife, whose discovery of the passcode change -- and my complicity in it -- precipitated the mother-of-all-blowups.

Unfortunately, a pwBPD's inability to handle criticism includes the inability to handle criticism, real or implied, about their inability to handle criticism. The presence of reading material that might imply a diagnosis represents a severe threat, and you will be punished accordingly.

[oinoxn]

Boy, that says it all?

You don’t even have to critisize and it is taken as being criticism.  Seems a differing of  opinion comes across as criticism.  How do you do it?  Assiming you do.  What’s your secret? 

[Jeffree]

Here's the thing, you can't get defensive, you can't really reply, you can't seem affected by what she says, and you really can't engage. It all winds up being misinterpreted and fuel for their anger.

I have tried something different recently, which seems to work... .at least for me.

First off, I am indifferent to her at this point.

Secondly, I don't answer the question being asked, but instead shift my response to something slightly related but different enough to move her off of her diatribe.

Imagine if you will, a dog with a bone. If you make any motion toward the bone, they will grip it tighter. However, if you offer a different treat they will be distracted from the bone and be caught off guard.

Because really, she only talks to trap you into engaging with her and taking the bait so she can keep painting you black.

J

[formflier]

  How do you do it?  Assiming you do.  What’s your secret? 

So... .this morning I said I wanted to think about something for a while (about kids) before responding.  That I wanted to be deliberate about reflecting... vice reacting.

She spun up saying/asking... .are you saying I'm being reactive?  To which I clarified... ."I'm speaking about my thoughts and goals.  I'll trust you can manage yours.  Would you like me to comment on them?"

Very neutral.

We've done this dance where she attempts to pin (some weird motivation) on me and I stay neutral and sidestep.  She rarely goes any further than a huff.

FF