How to uncover a BPD con.

[Our abuse recovery guide]

One thing I’ve always know, is if someone is trying to con they will keep it emotional rather than factual. The best way to deal with a bogus complain for example, is to keep to the facts and insist they evidence it in writing. I’ve also noticed BPD like to keep their arguments emotional, hate to leave an audit trail. So with the four most obvious BPD/NPD I’ve had to go up against in my life, each one disliked the written word, presumably because it creates an Audit trail and doesn’t allow for the multi sensory chaos and emotion they need to win the day.

The other thing I notice  is a preference, or sometimes insistence, they see you when they call (i.e. face time or skype). To the point they will refuses to correspond any other way. I know my BPD avoid e-mails, other than short responses.

This theory also works in reverse, I can think of two relationships that began with a BPD, only using the written word (with no obvious reason to do so). As a BPD is impulsive, this allows them to hide their true self. Then in both cases, the minute a meeting took place, the audit trails were destroyed. In my BPDm case she found reason to burn all the letter she wrote to my Dad. My Dad never tired of saying he never met the person he saw in her letters.

So my question to you, is have you noticed this communication preference with your BPD/NPD ?  Also are you a logical person, keen on evidencing things, or just happy to just say that’s her way without questioning it ? I know my BPD pushed hard at encouraging us not to question, and was skilled at dismissing any attempts to evidence. I guess now I know why. This point also comes up in performance management. High achievers like to be measured, the lazy prefer to tell you how well they are doing and avoid measurement. Your thoughts, my fellow BPD family members, would be appreciated.   

[HappyChappy]

One thing I’ve always know, is if someone is trying to con they will keep it emotional rather than factual. The best way to deal with a bogus complain for example, is to keep to the facts and insist they evidence it in writing. I’ve also noticed BPD like to keep their arguments emotional, hate to leave an audit trail. So with the four most obvious BPD/NPD I’ve had to go up against in my life, each one disliked the written word, presumably because it creates an Audit trail and doesn’t allow for the multi sensory chaos and emotion they need to win the day.

The other thing I notice  is a preference, or sometimes insistence, they see you when they call (i.e. face time or skype). To the point they will refuses to correspond any other way. I know my BPD avoid e-mails, other than short responses.

This theory also works in reverse, I can think of two relationships that began with a BPD, only using the written word (with no obvious reason to do so). As a BPD is impulsive, this allows them to hide their true self. Then in both cases, the minute a meeting took place, the audit trails were destroyed. In my BPDm case she found reason to burn all the letter she wrote to my Dad. My Dad never tired of saying he never met the person he saw in her letters.

So my question to you, is have you noticed this communication preference with your BPD/NPD ?  Also are you a logical person, keen on evidencing things, or just happy to just say that’s her way without questioning it ? I know my BPD pushed hard at encouraging us not to question, and was skilled at dismissing any attempts to evidence. I guess now I know why. This point also comes up in performance management. High achievers like to be measured, the lazy prefer to tell you how well they are doing and avoid measurement. Your thoughts, my fellow BPD family members, would be appreciated.   

[stellaris]

Absolutely true.  This woman, who goes by Issendai... .

issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/

... .did a study comparing support websites for estranged children with support websites for estranged parents.  Or to put it another way, support sites for abuse survivors vs those for abusers.

What she found was that the survivors focused almost obsessively on facts and details, questioned themselves, questioned other board members, posted verbatim emails and conversations, and seemed in general to be trying to understand the ground truth of their experience.  This is certainly my experience here on bpdfamily.  By contrast, the parents were very short on facts, long on feelings, and completely capable of contradicting their own narratives to suit the emotion of the moment.

One of the most (or perhaps least) amazing things was their ability to remain perplexed at the reason for the estrangement, through a process of... .

1) Listing all the things their child had told them were problematic.
2) Explaining why these things were not problematic and the child was wrong.
3) Concluding there was no reason for the estrangement save the viciousness of the child.
4) Expressing their anger and subsequent desire to inflict further abuse on the child for being so vicious.

It's a trippy little voyage into the mind of the abuser.

Issendai is quick to point out that this category does not cover all estranged parents - merely those who self-select onto these boards.  There is much more nuance to her findings, and her site is well worth a read.

[Fie]

Hello HappyChappy  

That's an interesting topic !

When I told my mum some time ago that I thought my childhood had not been that perfect, she immediately turned it on her and started to be all waify, but not after she had asked me for ... .facts  :-)  to prove my statement.

So well, they are able to stick to facts, only it's not always in their interest exactly !   :-)

My NPD/BPD ex always stated that he 'hated phoning'; I had no idea why. You might have just delivered  the anwer !


@Stellaris : I like the website you are mentioning !

[peachtree487]

One thing I’ve always know, is if someone is trying to con they will keep it emotional rather than factual. The best way to deal with a bogus complain for example, is to keep to the facts and insist they evidence it in writing. I’ve also noticed BPD like to keep their arguments emotional, hate to leave an audit trail. So with the four most obvious BPD/NPD I’ve had to go up against in my life, each one disliked the written word, presumably because it creates an Audit trail and doesn’t allow for the multi sensory chaos and emotion they need to win the day.

The other thing I notice  is a preference, or sometimes insistence, they see you when they call (i.e. face time or skype). To the point they will refuses to correspond any other way. I know my BPD avoid e-mails, other than short responses.

This theory also works in reverse, I can think of two relationships that began with a BPD, only using the written word (with no obvious reason to do so). As a BPD is impulsive, this allows them to hide their true self.

I believe you are right, HappyChappy. In my experience, my uBPD mom does not like to communicate via email, text, & sometimes not the phone when she wants to argue. She does argue on the phone, but mostly in person - when she is in one of her moods, she talks about how awful email & texting is, and when she has caused an issue between me & another family member, she criticizes if she finds out that I use email, text, or even tried to call the other person to try to fix the problem. "You shouldn't write long emails to such & such, it's  too much for them to read, they don't even read past the first sentence" and "You should not call so & so, because they are busy at work during the day, tired at night"

And, when she's in a mood, she somehow is not able to receive texts or emails.

[CollectedChaos]

This is a really interesting topic, and has got me thinking about my uBPD mom.  I think you are right, HappyChappy - they definitely hate being confronted with facts.  My mom wasn't one to steer away from emails/texting (although she probably should!), but whenever confronted with the things she had sent, using direct quotes and asking for explanations on those quotes, she would act as though I was making it all up and twisting her words, or would act as though I was simply being a bully.  Which is funny, since that is what she did to everyone else - it's as though she couldn't wrap her head around the fact that everyone else wasn't doing that, it was just her.  An example:  I remember a time where she told me via text message that she was "done with me" and said that she wasn't going to speak to me anymore (hah!).  But within 30 minutes she had sent me more angry messages (likely since I hadn't responded to her previous one).  So, I quoted her previous message and asked her point blank whether she was actually "done with me" or if that wasn't true.  She told me to grow up and stop picking on her, that she hadn't done anything to deserve "this treatment."  Sheesh... .

Thank you, stellaris, for posting that website as well - I read quite a bit of it yesterday and found it pretty fascinating.  For whatever reason, I never really thought about the fact that there are boards out there that are the "other side of the fence" so to speak, from myself.  I am certain that my mom feels that I abandoned her and never gave her a reason for it, despite me breaking it down very clearly to her on multiple occasions, both verbally and in written form.  Baffling, and also a very interesting insight to the way their minds work.

[pbnjsandwich]

One thing I’ve always know, is if someone is trying to con they will keep it emotional rather than factual. The best way to deal with a bogus complain for example, is to keep to the facts and insist they evidence it in writing. I’ve also noticed BPD like to keep their arguments emotional, hate to leave an audit trail. So with the four most obvious BPD/NPD I’ve had to go up against in my life, each one disliked the written word, presumably because it creates an Audit trail and doesn’t allow for the multi sensory chaos and emotion they need to win the day. Awesome thought on this.

The other thing I notice  is a preference, or sometimes insistence, they see you when they call (i.e. face time or skype). To the point they will refuses to correspond any other way. I know my BPD avoid e-mails, other than short responses. Wow. Well, yes, they don't want to get caught, do they?

This theory also works in reverse, I can think of two relationships that began with a BPD, only using the written word (with no obvious reason to do so). As a BPD is impulsive, this allows them to hide their true self. Then in both cases, the minute a meeting took place, the audit trails were destroyed. In my BPDm case she found reason to burn all the letter she wrote to my Dad. My Dad never tired of saying he never met the person he saw in her letters.

So my question to you, is have you noticed this communication preference with your BPD/NPD ?  Also are you a logical person, keen on evidencing things, or just happy to just say that’s her way without questioning it ? I know my BPD pushed hard at encouraging us not to question, and was skilled at dismissing any attempts to evidence. I guess now I know why. This point also comes up in performance management. High achievers like to be measured, the lazy prefer to tell you how well they are doing and avoid measurement. Your thoughts, my fellow BPD family members, would be appreciated.   

I noticed that I had to have a witness. I often got calls instead of emails, because, then he could say, "I don't remember saying that?" He would bounce between siblings with different stories. My sister does this as well, so I put the two of them together and they both bumped into each other with one story from her, one story from him. Now, I just relate to "those conversations" as a third, disinterested party.

[HappyChappy]

@Stellaris excellent link. It kind of suggest a similarity among the reasons for estrangement and the behaviour of the parents. I.e. that personality disorders is the main reason.

Hey @Fie, they are so good at being waify. My father, sister and I have all had extremely bad health – but it was all about how difficult this was for my BPD mom !

@peachtree

"You shouldn't write long emails to such & such, it's  too much for them to read

your BPD is right, books will never take off, they’re too long 
@CollectedChaos

they definitely hate being confronted with facts.

Don't they just, you can not manipulate facts. They want 1 + 1 to equal whatever they need it to be.

@pbnjsandwich calls instead of e-mails sounds about right. My NPD has sent abusive  e-mails, then recalled the e-mail from my inbox (which can be done in Outlook) and sent my response to a third party to suggest I am too sensitive and getting upset over nothing. Clever stuff. 

[cedarview]

Very interesting indeed. Since the BPD thrives on emotional, overwrought responses to even the most minor of events, having it thrown back in their face via black and white text that they reacted in an inappropriate manner is something they will avoid. My "problem" parent is my uBPD mother but I have been having a lot of thoughts regarding my father and his enabling behavior. He has always insisted that I drop everything and come see him to assist with some task, or just to complain to me. I used to do just that but have since had more respect for myself and my own time (he respects neither). He has often gone on about how e-mail doesn't communicate a person's tone or intent and that "meeting in person" is the only way to work out problems. I once asked him why a phone call isn't enough and he literally reached out and held my chin with his hand stating "I just want to be able to see your sweet face when I am talking to you." And he sounded angry when doing so. Very off-putting. Here is a recipe for disaster; me by myself with one of my uBPD parents having a "discussion" with no set end time. I tend to get so dizzy from the circular logic and lies that I "shut down" and when my wife tries to debrief me later about what was said I just stare off into space and mutter "stuff... .". Sometimes you have to LOL.

[Penny123]

Hi Happy Chappy!

My diagnosed BPDMom lies and cons all the time and throughout my life and sometimes when there is no reason. Confronting her about is like confronting a 2 year old child or a 86 old person with Alzheimer's. She lives more than six hours away so most of my communication with her his through phone calls or texts and for the most part is very secret about what she does. I started writing/logging what she said because the stories change from one day to the next and I would confirm with my brother what she told him. Lots of the times, she lies or cons to get money from me. It's very much an emotional not factual story. She tries to confuse me and change her story too when it seems like I'm catching on to what she is doing. Also, if she THINKS it, it happened even if it hasn't in reality.  Can you imagine how hard it is to have a loving, trusting relationship with her? I have no trust in what she says. I try to give her the benefit of the doubt but sometimes, it borders on lunacy. I'm glad others have experienced this.                                           She doesn't like face to face confrontation though. Lots of times with her landlord, she is unhappy with something done or said and she goes back to her apartment to call and confront the landlord. Also, usually at the end of our phone conversation, she is mad and hangs up on me in mid conversation and I have to deal with tons of her harassing texts afterwords which we could have handled by phone.                                                 

[Penny123]

Having an emotional, lying, coning BPDMom makes me want to be more logical in many ways.  I may not use logic and rationalization in our relationship but having order and logic helps me think I'm not the crazy one.  ;-)

[Angie59]

Hi HappyChappy 

Just wanted to jump in here (maybe give everyone a laugh).  Quite awhile back I had asked my son's uBPD (now his fiance) to be friends on FB.  She answered with first just a "no."  Then a bit later she explained that she didn't want to be friends because the written word gets too misconstrued sometimes and causes problems.

The funny part of this is that, with saying the above, she continued to write 5 full paragraphs right below the above going all the way back to day 1 of meeting us and told me all the things I have done or said that either angered her, hurt of her feelings, etc... .  She then said, you don't have to tell me how you feel, my son had already told her.   

I think she might have just contradicted herself.  What do you think?

Not sure I will ever get over all this chaos, double standards, lying, cheating, and on and on and on!  Too much at my age!

Angie59

[pbnjsandwich]

Very interesting indeed. Since the BPD thrives on emotional, overwrought responses to even the most minor of events, having it thrown back in their face via black and white text that they reacted in an inappropriate manner is something they will avoid. My "problem" parent is my uBPD mother but I have been having a lot of thoughts regarding my father and his enabling behavior. He has always insisted that I drop everything and come see him to assist with some task, or just to complain to me. I used to do just that but have since had more respect for myself and my own time (he respects neither). He has often gone on about how e-mail doesn't communicate a person's tone or intent and that "meeting in person" is the only way to work out problems. I once asked him why a phone call isn't enough and he literally reached out and held my chin with his hand stating "I just want to be able to see your sweet face when I am talking to you." And he sounded angry when doing so. Very off-putting. Here is a recipe for disaster; me by myself with one of my uBPD parents having a "discussion" with no set end time. I tend to get so dizzy from the circular logic and lies that I "shut down" and when my wife tries to debrief me later about what was said I just stare off into space and mutter "stuff... .". Sometimes you have to LOL.

It seems as though when one parent is BPD the other enables. You just have to take your life back and tell them to handle things or get help. I mean, we're not their doctor or therapist. It's enough to handle our own life.

[Angie59]

It sounds like we are all experiencing a lot of the same thing, maybe in different ways. 

Silly me - I thought that is the way a conversation worked.  You say something, and then I say something and on and on.  It seems with my son's BP, you really don't ever get to say what you want.  Just her side.  She does not like confrontation by myself or by my husband or son (older son) whatsoever. 

How in the world do they expect you to have a relationship with them if you can't even manage the above?  This is all really hard to figure out, even after I've read about it so much. 

My heart goes out for my son, of course, but mostly for the children.  A 2 and 4 year old cannot sort this madness out!  They are the innocents who will pay for it later.  It breaks my heart. 

Angie59

[HappyChappy]

she didn't want to be friends because the written word gets too misconstrued sometimes and causes problems.

  Silly humankind has got it wrong, writing laws down, tablets of stone. We should base justice on gossip and good old fashioned prejudice. The jails should be full of butlers.

It seems as though when one parent is BPD the other enables.

That's why they chose them. There is a specific type they go for, an open, honest, moral type, i.e. easy for the BPD to predict. A rescuer that responds to their waif like behaviour, and will clean up their mess and do the right thing. That or they go for a NPD.

[RomanticFool]

My exBPD married lover would only reply briefly to texts. She claimed her husband monitored her phone. I'm inclined to think it was all about control. She then switched to WhatsApp and would very occasionally have a phone call around 4pm when her husband was at the post office (they work together from home). In the distant days of her love-bombing she would insist on Skype or FaceTime communication.

My ex gets her self worth from being told how desirable and beautiful she is. When I demanded words of love or some kind of indication of her feelings in return I would always get ST. There was only room for adoration of herself in our r/s... I remember when we first got together 15 years ago she told me that she wanted to be put on a pedestal and admired. I laughed back then and said she had got the wrong man. I know how to woo if I wanted to get her back, simply shower her with compliments about her looks, such is her unstable self image... I simply refuse to do it because such one sided love is boring and not nourishing.

[Panda39]

My SO, when divorcing his uBPDxw began communicating only in email and saved them all.  When his ex would try and flip everything on it's head and get manipulative, he would quote her emails back to her.  Then what would happen?

Crickets... .absolute silence.  It was like her brain shut down, things just didn't compute.

Panda39

[gotbushels]

Hi HappyChappy   

Interesting discussion. I thought I'd add data to your study here--from the perspective of exSO.

After researching how to manage the symptoms of my exupwBPDgf, I somewhere got the idea to calendar the dysregulations. I realised through the process that I was minimising the "oh it's just once a month"--to the reality that dysregulations could be as much as several times a week to several times a day.

Combined with inducing the non with FOG and sleep deprivation, I think it's in the pwBPD's interests (probably subconsciously) to keep the non in a low-power position. One way the pwBPD would do that (again, probably unconsciously) is by creating more of that "quicksand" of uncertainty with a lack of physical evidence.

I think that supports your point here:

Audit trail [... .] doesn’t allow for the multi sensory chaos and emotion they need to win the day.

Something else interesting; my exupwBPD wrote and drew her problems on paper and gave them to me. It's as though a part of her was reaching out for help and trying to show me what she was. That probably adds a point to the idea the a lot of what people consider malevolent conscious behaviour could be more a matter of destructive unconscious habits. 

[LeneLu]

Hello all,

I have wondered to myself if there is a forum for the "other side of the fence" as CollectedChaos mentions.  I would actually love to read the thoughts and logic of BPDs. I would think that it is unlikely because they have to acknowledge their BPD through self-identification and then opt in. But, if anyone knows of one, can you share the link?

LeenLou

[gotbushels]

But, if anyone knows of one, can you share the link?

https://www.psychforums.com/borderline-personality/

I found formal publications more helpful.