Processing losses that we aren't allowed to grieve

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

@Pearlsw I was thinking back through my posts these last few days and please take everything I say with a grain of salt.  I am not a healthcare professional, I am a middle aged man with a bit of anecdotal life experience. 

I was thinking about the Epimenides paradox... ."... .all the Cretans are liars"

I am not lying --but please do not assume I know what in the hell I am talking about.  I give advice... .share experience... .  However... .my background is a 25 year cold marriage and an affair.  --Maybe we need to find some Cretans... . 

I am happy to listen and give opinions --but remember to consider my words through the lens of having come from an empathetic, mildly depressed, emotionally bruised man in the midst of trying to sort himself out.


Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

@Pearlsw I was thinking back through my posts these last few days and please take everything I say with a grain of salt.  I am not a healthcare professional, I am a middle aged man with a bit of anecdotal life experience. 

I was thinking about the Epimenides paradox... ."... .all the Cretans are liars"

I am not lying --but please do not assume I know what in the hell I am talking about.  I give advice... .share experience... .  However... .my background is a 25 year cold marriage and an affair.  --Maybe we need to find some Cretans... . 

I am happy to listen and give opinions --but remember to consider my words through the lens of having come from an empathetic, mildly depressed, emotionally bruised man in the midst of trying to sort himself out.


Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Hi Wickerman and BG, 

Thank you both, it will take me many more writing sessions to get to all of the great stuff each of you shared here! I can’t thank you enough!

You know it’s funny when people look back on affairs tales of great sex probably predominant. I certainly have tales. But to be honest the best part was just seeing very short messages from him, knowing that in his very busy life he was thinking of me. A simple smiley face, or a good morning or good night was light years better than the sex.

The sex with him was the most unselfish sex I have ever experienced in my life. I took notes on him when I met him many years ago in our twenties when we were single and free and it is etched in my brain. He had such incredible strength and control. He could walk on his hands for goodness sakes, who does that? It might not sound sexy, but he could ride a unicycle and juggle! ahahahaha. It was so cool because the amount of strength and concentration that must take! And he was just funny! I mean, we could barely communicate when we first met…and the way he handled everything…I mean, we had a week together and he was ready to consider moving across the world just to be with me when we were finally able to talk again after he finished his months long trip - we were heading in different directions when we met on the street in front of the hotel we were both staying at in a foreign country, then changed plans and had an incredible, though imperfect time together. I felt so safe and protected by him though. He was a good guy. I could be with him, no sex, and be fine…just to see him trying to cheer me up…he saved my life really, both times. That is how I saw him…in one sense…it was all so complicated…

We saw each other for years secretly as friends with no sex. I finally started to break down when one time before we had to part he came to me and wrapped his giant body all around me because he just needed a hug. Here was this “Sex God” (As opposed to your Dream Girl) that I had idealized for years and simply wanted to be friends with, now in a sexless marriage. My dear friend with no intimacy or love…and…I could not hold myself anymore in the face of his pain and my own... .

I thought, though not my responsibility, I can give something to this. Months after that, after sexual/health threats from my SO I just thought, that’s it. My SO does not get to get away with everything - with total disrespect and emotional abuse of me and neglect, and insults and for what? I consider all his words, actions, and cr*p betrayal, he does not. I don’t care what he thinks on this point.

Well, at his most broken down moments he does recognize he destroyed us as we were…destroyed what we had. And after all he did, and not in a world of my own making, I pitched in and helped with the breakdown by taking my friends hand and asking for more out of my cr*ppy life. My intention was not to hurt him,  my SO, I just lost my fierce sense of loyalty that I’d had toward him. And I mean fierce. I had sacrificed and protected him and fought for him and I felt totally betrayed and disrespected, everything was dumped on me and I was treated like a total piece of garbage…all it took was this extra voice in my ear saying…”It’s your life. Do what you want.” and I was off on this path... .

I must admit, I may have already said this, some of the best times we’ve had (my SO and I) have been since this happened, but of course, there have also been the absolute worst of times. I marvel at my ability to still stand. I think I am just propped up by values inside of myself that likely make no sense for the situation I am in. That is what has always been hard with him. I am coming from a certain place in the world, applying all I know about myself to the situation and the values I have been carrying around my whole life and he brought his. I don’t see him as ethical, honest, trustworthy, fair minded, honorable, you name it. He has good points, but he is also corrupt, lies, and is short sighted... .I could go on. I lost a lot of respect for him over the years. He always said I was “better than him” and he’d still say that now on a good day. It is mind-blowing.

I ultimately don’t think I can live under his thumb…somewhere along the way this year I…I mean I really offered all I could to save and protect him in a divorce even, out of a desire to salvage some honor for myself, but…I will ultimately let the courts decide. I am not going to go to heroic efforts to protect him anymore if we do split. I worked very sincerely to stay together to have my life totally shattered by him. And for what? I came to him with innocence and honesty and faithfulness and hope and lots and lots of love and he turned love into hate right before my eyes in every way he could cook up.

With my friend/lover, the next to last visit, it felt like we were cursed. His back went out, he was miserable, embarrassed, I was happy to help him as he’d helped me out when were much younger and travelling together. But again, as I say, to eat a simple snack with him, to see him worry about me when I didn’t come back from an errand as fast as I expected…the tiniest of things were the best parts of the memories. Even just the last looks we gave each other as I headed toward the train and he in another direction, those last looks of “Why can’t we be together?” that was the beauty of it. But it was mostly pain. I was in pain on both sides, completely. Every moment with each of them was painful for me, with small bits of pleasure/relief.

He is great, my friend/lover, but he is not the best man I’ve ever met actually. I have another great love that got away too. I am feeling a little doomed, but I guess…you have to either be brave with this stuff or sit on the bench. I know one day I will find a way to be brave again, I am just not there yet.

with much gratitude, pearl.

[Wicker Man]

it’s funny when people look back on affairs tales of great sex probably predominant. I certainly have tales. But to be honest the best part was just seeing very short messages from him

I miss her smile.  I complimented her on her smile once and she said 'I am glad you like it -it is yours you made it.  Before I met you I never smiled.  I miss her laugh.  Without a smile and a laugh sex is meaningless.  I am afraid I understand you feeling of loss completely.

And he was just funny!

 
In my opinion the single best attribute a friend can have is a sense of humor.

I could be with him, no sex, and be fine…just to see him trying to cheer me up…he saved my life really, both times. That is how I saw him…in one sense…it was all so complicated…

My affair echos this, however I was the one doing the saving. We were content to just hold each other, spend countless hours listening to music or watching movies.  Sharing our different experiences with art.  For me, in the moment, it seemed simple.  Drop everything and be with this person.  As Lucky Jim says so often 'not built to last'.  Looking back I now see she had initially tried to withhold sex as a bid for control -I was just so happy to be with her I didn't care and she gave up.  This was when she told me sex didn't feel like an obligation with me -I told her that was fine I didn't look at it as an obligation with her either... .  God I must have confused this poor girl... .

My dear friend with no intimacy or love…and…I could not hold myself anymore in the face of his pain and my own... .

Life and love are full of irony sometimes approaching tragedy.

I don’t care what he thinks on this point.

When I decided to proceed with my affair it was a cool decision rather than a hot one.  In the moment I no longer cared to go back to the marriage as I had known it.  I was fortunate when my wife asked me to consider reconciliation she had made some great strides in therapy and I saw hope.  For the first time I saw there was some movement and change in her outlook on life -her life and ours.  The stars must have aligned because her asking me to consider returning coincided with my ending my engagement with ':)ream Come True'.  It was a lucky turn of events.

I just lost my fierce sense of loyalty that I’d had toward him... ... ..”It’s your life. Do what you want.” and I was off on this path... .

Once again, I completely understand.  I wish I didn't, but I do.  It is a strange realization.  To have one's feelings of what is right and wrong change -morally, emotionally, and psychologically. 

I must admit, I may have already said this, some of the best times we’ve had (my SO and I) have been since this happened, but of course, there have also been the absolute worst of times. I marvel at my ability to still stand.

Dear Pearl you have been through so much.  You are still standing; be proud of your resilience and determination.  You seem to be confronting these issues and it really is the first step toward resolution and salvation.

I lost a lot of respect for him over the years.

If you do decide to try to reconcile you will have a very hard road ahead of you.  For him to regain your respect, your trust and for you to like him again would be incredibly difficult.

I ultimately don’t think I can live under his thumb…

No. You cannot and should not.  This is to say, from what I am reading, you (you plural) need to change things or move on.  You describe a marriage which is functioning badly and is hurtful for you -this is neither healthy nor sustainable.

I will ultimately let the courts decide. I am not going to go to heroic efforts to protect him anymore if we do split.

When my wife and I were going to divorce I drew up an offer -it was likely far more than it might have been had we gone to court. 

':)ream Come True' was furious -in fact this may have been one of her triggers which caused the rage and ending our engagement.  So incredibly  ironic --money of all things.  I was ready to walk away from houses, cars, and plenty of money to be with her.  I was preparing to help her grandparents through elder care -Dream Come True had no idea what this meant.  Having helped my mom through her final battle with cancer I knew what I was offering.  Hell! I was already considering how to ensure her retirement and college for a child we never had.  So incredibly ironic.  I have said it before and I will say it again... .Ugh!  people... .

If you decide on the dissolution of your marriage, in my opinion, at that point it becomes a business transaction.  The corporation of your marriage has failed and the assets need to be reallocated --just business.  It should not be done with spite or malice -that will only make the lawyers rich.  Mediation can save a lot of money -iff (if and only if) both parties are being honest and reasonable.  If they are not mediation will fail and lawyers become necessary. 

I recently had two friends in a divorce attempt and fail in mediation -I kept telling him to stop being greedy.  He couldn't... .  It cost them 20% of their assets once the dust settled.  The money was wasted because he had made it a principle issue -he fell victim to his spite and malice. 

I came to him with innocence and honesty and faithfulness and hope and lots and lots of love and he turned love into hate right before my eyes.

All of this is still within you.  We learn and grow though experience.  In the right tableaux you will find your innocence, honesty and faithfulness again.

Even just the last looks we gave each other as I headed toward the train... .  ... .“Why can’t we be together?”

On December 7th as I walked away from her I told her I will see you in two weeks.  We will never meet again.  I can't remember what her voice sounds like now.  Her laugh.  All fading.  I am so sorry for your loss and by God I wish I didn't understand.  Our situations are reversed you are in the throws of leaving someone suffering from Borderline personality disorder and I am returning from one -but your sense of loss resonates loud and clear.

I am feeling a little doomed... .  my friend/lover is great... ... ..he is not the best man I’ve ever met.

Pearl I re-ordered and edited your statement together to show you. You are not doomed.  You attract good men.  There are good people out there.

In my opinion you are being brave.  You are recognizing a problem and preparing to solve it one way or another.  It took me 25 years to begin to address the most important relationship in my life.  You are way ahead of the game



Wicker Man

[JoeBPD81]

I read here and there a bit... .But I can't take all the posts and answer carefully.

Even on TV when I face infidelity, it opens a can can of worms, and it's painful.

See, I ended up with my affair partner. I tried to end my marriage in its own right, because it was headed that way before meeting this new woman. But it got all confused when I fell in love, of course, and then I had to second guess all my thoughts and feelings. I broke up with both of them, and after a while I decided to not let this new woman go, she felt as my soulmate at the time.

For me, the moment my ex was out of the picture, and I could ask the new woman to be my girlfriend, she stopped understanding me, trusting me, and treating me right, and she started hating all things romantic alltogether. Before that, it seemed she could read my mind, she would have the same ideas and thoughts I had. But as she stopped believing me, she feels I'm a stranger. (If she doesn't believe who I am, the person remaining is not me, so it's impossible to know me).

Well, to the point, I'm not only the betrayer, but the leaver. I never came back to fix the pain I caused to my ex-wife. So the guilt is different. Even as I was a great husband for all our marriage, and she'd been labeled as abuser by my therapist. In my mind, due to how things ended, I'm the bad guy. I'm unforgivable. I have forgiven and forgotten the bad things from my ex, and what survives in my mind, is that I paid all the years of good things, of friendship and companionship, and good moments... .I paid them with abandonment.

As my new GF thought (wrongly) for years that I was seeing my ex, and obsessed about her, I never processed those guilty feelings properly. She talks about my ex with great contempt and disgust, when she has never met her. And to me is trashtalking about the "victim". The fact that I don't have rage and resentment towards my ex, must have meant to her that I was still in love with her (I know, jealousy doesn't have to make sense, and I get the insecurity).

The fact that I cheated once in my life, doesn't let me defend myself: "I'm an honest person!". You know? I think you would battle that with your spouses too. And with yourselves.

It seems that reading this posts, and taking part properly, it could be therapeutic. But it still feels like too much to tackle right now.

I do want to offer you all my understanding and support, and I wish you all the healing that you want.   

[BeagleGirl]

Even on TV when I face infidelity, it opens a can can of worms, and it's painful.

she stopped understanding me, trusting me, and treating me right, and she started hating all things romantic alltogether.

Well, to the point, I'm not only the betrayer, but the leaver. I never came back to fix the pain I caused to my ex-wife. So the guilt is different.

The fact that I cheated once in my life, doesn't let me defend myself: "I'm an honest person!". You know? I think you would battle that with your spouses too. And with yourselves.

It seems that reading this posts, and taking part properly, it could be therapeutic. But it still feels like too much to tackle right now.

JoeBPD,
I'm so glad you joined the conversation.  I can understand if all of this may be more than you want to tackle now, but I hope you stick around and maybe start to wrestle with a few things.

I highlighted the comments that stuck out to me in your post. 

I definitely understand the discomfort of having any reference to infidelity on TV, in movies, etc.  I will say that it's gotten easier as I have gained some distance from my affair, but I think I will always be hypersensitive to it.

I can also understand the shift you have seen in your affair partner/girlfriend.  I'm sure you know the saying "If s/he'll cheat with you, s/he'll cheat on you."  I think that fear is one key reason that relationships with affair partners have such a low success rate.  That said, it does not give her the right to mistreat you, nor does it condemn you to stay in a relationship that is not all it could be.  Have you asked your gf to work through this lack of trust?

As far as your relationship with your ex-wife goes, I think I can understand the guilt that would come from not having at least attempted to "make it right".  I know that the knowledge that I did all I could to repair my marriage has contributed greatly to my ability to reconcile myself to my divorce.  The option of working to fix your marriage may not be open to you, but I think that there are other ways that you can achieve that closure and freedom. 

The closest comparison I can make from my own experience is what I have done to try to "make right" the damage I did to my affair partner's wife.  I can't go back in time and "unsleep with" her husband.  Ultimately, that's the only way to really "make things right".  I owe her a debt of restitution that I can never repay, and to attempt to do so would cause her more pain.  I live with that debt every day.  The only action I have taken that she is aware of is to write her a letter of apology.  I put weeks of thought into that letter and I did not send it until it had been reviewed and approved by a friend of mine whose husband had cheated on her.  I wanted to make sure that I did no more damage in an attempt to release myself from guilt.  That letter contained a brief but clear acknowledgement of the wrong I had done, an apology, a list of things I was doing to ensure she need not fear that I would do anything more to cause her pain, and an offer to do anything she felt would help her healing.  She never responded, and I will probably never know if she even read the letter.  I can only trust that the best restitution I can make is to live a life that will never cause that kind of pain again. 

So that brings me to your comment about not being able to say that you are an honest person and the way that having an affair can become a part of your core identity. 

I distinctly remember a conversation I had with my affair partner where I told him the words I was trying on for size; adulteress, homewrecker, whore, mistress, the other woman, and the like.  I would say that I probably wore those words for over a year after I left my affair.  They were the garment I wore to express the shame I bore in the presence of my husband.  They were the shield I held between me and my affair partner.  They were the ball and chain of my guilt towards his wife that I kept as my constant reminder.  I knew that I had not been coerced or tricked into having an affair.  I had chosen.  I knew that nothing my husband had done warranted my betrayal.  I had chosen.  So who must I be if I could choose that?

The answer that I've come to over the past 4 years is that I am BeagleGirl.  My affair is a part of the journey that has shaped who I am, but it does not define me.  My affair uncovered parts of myself that I wanted to deny were there, but that has allowed me (forced me) to deal with them honestly.  My affair was both an outcome of who I was and out of character for who I was and am.  It's hard to get to a place where those ideas can coexist.  It requires an acknowledgment that I was and am still capable of incredible self deception and selfishness, but I am also capable of incredible love and self-sacrifice.  It requires that I understand that I am responsible for choosing to have an affair and equally responsible for never doing so again.  I am an honest person, but I chose to lie.  I am a faithful person, but I chose to break my vows.  I am a loving person, but I chose to hurt the innocent.  I understand why I made those choices and am working diligently to ensure I never make them again. 

I was often a proud and self-righteous person before I was an adulteress.  I believe that love is killed by both pride and shame.  So I'm recovering from both.  I am working to shed both the illusion of perfection and the garment of shame that covered up who I am.  I strive for an authentic life that allows me to shine a light on the darkness in me.  Hopefully I'll be able to chase out that darkness, but if in the meantime I will learn not to allow the fear of it to control me. 

I hope to find a partner who is equally aware of my flawed nature and his own.  I think that the very nature of our relationship bonded my affair partner and me in that way.  We both knew that what we were doing was wrong.  We both knew we were betrayers and yet we could love each other.  I could love him even though I knew what he was doing to his wife, so he was free to show me other aspects of his darkness.  I did the same.  He knew more of me than anyone ever had, and yet he still loved me.  Who knows if that would have lasted, but it did give me courage to trust others when I left the affair.  That trust wasn't always well placed, BUT I did find out that there are people who can know the deepest darkest parts of me and love me.  My two closest friendships came out of that time.  I would have called us friends before, but now I know what friendship really is. 

Back to you, JoeBPD, (it's so very easy to get to talking about myself  I am going to give you a piece of advice that I don't know if I would have been ready to hear or been able to act upon when I was leaving my affair.  You are never going to be able to fix/find/maintain a relationship with someone else if you are not actively working on understanding, owning, and shaping who you are.  Making amends can be a part of that, but living under a pile of guilt can't.  It's also really hard for someone to trust us if we don't trust ourselves.  And... .this is a big one... .a relationship where one member is acting out of fear, guilt, and obligation does no one any good, regardless of whether the FOG is being imposed or self-generated. 

I really do hope that you continue to share.  It is incredibly helpful to share this aspect of my life with people who have a better understanding of what I've been through/am going through.  Both the similarities and differences in our stories have helped me understand myself better.

BeagleGirl

[Wicker Man]

@Joe It sounds like our experiences are similar.  The time tables are a bit different, but the idea is the same.  I filed for divorce and then proposed to my lover as the divorce was in processing.  My state has a fairly long cool off period.  This is America... .So you can get a gun quickly, but a divorce takes quite a bit of time... .  Ugh.

It must be awful for infidelity on the media to be a trigger for you.  I have been rewatching the Sopranos -Don't look!  There are several episodes showing infidelity with someone suffering from BPD -I couldn't believe it.  Just what I needed to see... .  What it worse they did a pretty damn good job of it too.  Personally my triggers, beyond her birthday and the day we were engaged have been mostly music and movies we watched when we were together.  The pain comes back in waves.

... .felt as my soulmate at the time.

I felt the same soulful connection to my ex.  When I met her family there was also an instant connection.  Upon first meeting her grandmother she and I would walk hand in hand.  Her gandmother's hand felt just like mine had.  It took me right back to being a little boy walking hand in hand with my mom's mom.  I was immediately adopted as an uncle figure to her little brother and was helping him with his English homework nearly every evening.  --It was a warm and wonderful time.  I suppose here we would call it enmeshment -to me it felt like becoming a member of the family.  When we parted the first time her grandmother gave me a 'red envelope' (welcome to the family money) -I thanked her and gave it to my fiancé who then handed it back to her.  We all had a wonderful laugh.

she stopped understanding me, trusting me, and treating me right

My ex began suffering from 'retroactive jealousy' as well.  Not toward my wife, but from a previous girl friend.  Someone who had been out of my life for a very long time, but my ex's jealousy consumed her.  I had experienced the same retroactive jealousy from my wife -I ended up missing a lot of 'red flags' because I had experienced rage over this issue in the past.  I had done a lot of reading into the phenomenon and had supposed my ex's rage was solely caused by this.  As I have said before I had forgotten about BPD -having not studies psychology since college.  It wasn't until after our relationship ended that I began to guess she suffers from BPD.  She had been (in my opinion) misdiagnosed as schizophrenic and bipolar -having spent a year 'observing' her behavior I now firmly believe she is borderline.  Ironic I would have given anything to have had her merely be schizophrenic... . 

I'm not only the betrayer, but the leaver. I never came back to fix the pain I caused to my ex-wife. So the guilt is different. Even as I was a great husband for all our marriage, and she'd been labeled as abuser by my therapist.

Joe 'betrayer', 'leaver'... .Add 'human' to the list.  You did the best you could at the time.  Might you have done things differently in hindsight?  Sure.  As would I.  What I wouldn't give to be able to go back in time and undo what I have done, unsee the things I have seen, and unfeel (Hey! I just made up a word... .) what I have felt.  We cannot. 

All we can try to do is learn from our experiences and grow from them. 
I had been the 'perfect' husband for years.  Hard working in and out of the home.  Hell... .When my wife arrives home from work I take her briefcase and hand her a martini  --dinner is on the stove.  When I am not working I am Donna Reed (showing my age... .) at home... .  Ok... .I don't wear a dress or pearls -but you get the idea.  In all of this perfect husbanding 'if I care for you the way I want to be loved -then you will love me that way too' I was dying inside.  I felt unloved.  If the monkey dances hard enough everything will get better... .25 years slid by.

My wife will never say it in so many words, but she is coming to realize why I left her.  Yes... .I acted out terribly having had an affair -but I am human.  I don't always like being human -but I am fallible.  I also have the ability to learn from my mistakes -the upside of being human.

I'm the bad guy. I'm unforgivable.

In whose eyes are you unforgivable?  It must be your own.  Over 33% of people in marriages admit to having had an affair!  I am not saying this is right, but it is unfortunately common nearly to the point of banality.  What we did as 'cheaters' is bad, but not unforgivable.  Is it hurtful to ourselves and the ones we love?  Yep.  Is it hard to reconcile our view of ourselves afterward?  Yep.  Is is extraordinary? No.  I have spent my entire life attempting to be extraordinary and it turns out I am still just human. 

Joe find a way toward self forgiveness.  Find your own redemption and salvation.  For me that has been through therapy, reading and journaling. 

I have forgiven and forgotten the bad things... .

This must be human nature.  I had to journal a list of my ex's behaviors, both good and bad in an attempt to exorcise her from my mind.  She is still very slow in leaving my heart.  I had to separate her from her family in my mind.  I had not gotten engaged to her family, but to her.  As I have read often here with relationships involving borderline traits the highs are very high.  For me her bordering on psychosis was actually not completely a negative thing -it made her an incredibly sensitive artist.

I say this because you will drive yourself mad if you only remember the good and not the entire picture.  In my opinion no one has an affair because they are happy in their marriage.  An affair is a tentpole event in a larger context of a relationship.  My wife and I are now beginning to explore this in therapy -building a better stronger 'affair proof' marriage.  I know I will not allow myself to have another affair --it was frankly too painful.

I never processed those guilty feelings properly.

Again --I am a big fan of journalling and therapy.  Ok... .I don't like therapy, but it is necessary for me.  It is hard work.

The fact that I cheated once in my life, doesn't let me defend myself: "I'm an honest person!". You know? I think you would battle that with your spouses too. And with yourselves.

So by this logic if you tell a single lie then everything said after that single lie is suspect?  Life is a contact sport and sometimes we get a bit beaten and bloodied, but we must continue on as best we can.

Yes --I was a cheat, betrayer, a liar.  What I did could be seen as monstrous, even diabolical.  I am also human and I choose to no longer allow myself those behaviors --I am learning and growing. 

Life must be seen in shades of grey! As a point of observation people suffering from borderline personality disorder don't seem to see shades of grey and this forces many of us to leave them.  As relatively health neurotics we must not fall into binary thinking.

It seems that reading this posts, and taking part properly, it could be therapeutic. But it still feels like too much to tackle right now.

Personally, contributing here on BPD Family is a form of live journalling and it seems to offer a similar catharsis.  Writing forces one to process and articulate one's thoughts and emotions.  Believe me Joe I represent a 'coping model' certainly not the 'super man model' --but I am doing the best I can each day with what I have.

Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

@BeagleGirl --Well said... .  I like your post better than mine... .

[BeagleGirl]

Since we have betrayed our spouses some extreme behavior on their part is to be expected.  Bear with me... .and forgive my candor... .but... .You have to look at this from his perspective.  As a man you emasculated him, as a wife you betrayed him, and culturally you shamed him. (still with me here?)  This is not an excuse for his behavior, but an explanation.  I am sure you caught a lot more hell than I did -but my wife has said some things to me which made me question my ability and willingness to reconcile and rebuild.  I remember one evening I felt myself falling into 'diffuse physiological arousal' fight or flight.  She had been so incredibly hurtful my instinct was to either fire back or just walk away -it took my entire force of will to talk myself down.

I had to let the vitriol wash over me and pick out the message which was shrouded in rage -her message was 'I love you, but you really hurt me'. In 25 years I have never yelled at my wife and never called her a bad name.  We argue, but I never belittle her.  Cui Bono?  Why would I call my wife an idiot?  That would mean I married an idiot... .  I attempt active listening and try to pick out the real message -it is hard, but no one 'wins' in a fight.  I feel in a marriage either both people win or they both lose.

I've been thinking about what WickerMan said here this morning, especially in the context of how my view of myself and the way the world should work got distorted in the aftermath of my affair. 

In the months and years after my affair my dBPDxh never yelled at me.  He never yelled.  But he did degrade me sexually and use the pain of my betrayal to excuse irresponsible, harmful, and eventually abusive behavior.  I understood these actions on his part - as WickerMan says, they were easily explained.  I understood them, endured them, and forgave them.  Where I think I erred is that I believed that I DESERVED them.  Now I would say that a world view that would say that I deserved his treatment of me because of my affair would also say that he deserved my betrayal of our marriage because of his previous treatment of me. Like you, WickerMan, I was the "perfect wife" for many years while he consistently behaved selfishly and irresponsibly in ways that hurt me very deeply.  That made my affair "understandable", even to my friend who had suffered the pain of having her husband betray her.  But it didn't make my affair justifiable. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". 

I don't believe that anyone deserves to be treated with hate and intent to harm.  I don't believe that a relationship can survive in an environment where either of both believe they have the right to punish the other.  That doesn't mean that I did not deserve to face the consequences of my actions.  I deserved to lose the trust of my husband and, if he was not willing/able to try to extend it any longer, my relationship with him.  I deserved to see his raw pain, because I had caused it.  I deserved to fear an encounter with my affair partner's wife and her pain.  I deserved to lose time with my children, marital assets, and the marriage that I had betrayed.  I did not deserve to be treated as a slave to my husband's feelings, an object to satisfy his desires in whatever form they would take, or a "fixer", cleaning up any messes he made.  I endured that behavior for 2.5 years, until it became clear that he felt justified in this behavior and therefore I had no hope that it would change.  I won't take any actions to "punish" him for his actions.  I desire his well being, despite continued hurtful behavior on his part.  That doesn't mean I have to remain in relationship with him.  I choose to separate myself from him to whatever extent is possible.  In some ways that means we both "lost", but I hope that it leaves us both open to "win" in another relationship.

[BeagleGirl]

@BeagleGirl --Well said... .  I like your post better than mine... .

Any perceived wisdom I have is purely a consequence of my age.  I am 42, and as any nerd will tell you, 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything is 42.  I'm really screwed when my next birthday hits.   

[Wicker Man]

... .use the pain of my betrayal to excuse irresponsible, harmful, and eventually abusive behavior.  I understood these actions on his part - as WickerMan says, they were easily explained.  I understood them, endured them, and forgave them.  Where I think I erred is that I believed that I DESERVED them.

I am sorry to hear you endured so much pain.  It is all to easy to feel guilt and through this guilt feel we are due -we deserve to be punished.  I have apologized to my wife and in couple's therapy offered full disclosure without making it a confession. 

There is a danger in looking for absolution through confession and inadvertently hurting one's spouse further.  Disclosure is a delicate process, in my opinion.  I offered as much information as my wife needed without being any more hurtful that I had to be. 

She has only slid into being punitive a few times.  The first time she evoked enough anger in me I had to take a deep breath to avoid a fight / flight response.  I remained quiet and continued to listen -it was a herculean effort.  She actually apologized the next morning -it was a pretty rough evening.

The subsequent two episodes I was able to say -the conversation is become unconstructive we should take a break and pick this up in 20 minutes.  It isn't easy -but I feel there would be no sense in me firing back.  I do not think I have ever 'fired for effect' toward my wife.  I believe I can honestly say I have never said anything with the intent to do her harm -I am doing my best to keep it this way.

... .made my affair "understandable"

This was the point I was attempting to make to Joe --you did a better job of it.  A woman's deft touch versus my overly direct ham fisted male modality of discourse... .

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". 

I am guessing Hammurabi would have made an awful husband. 

I don't believe that a relationship can survive in an environment where either of both believe they have the right to punish the other.

In a perfect world no.  I am afraid this is all too often the human dynamic.  I refuse to live in this manner --Ultimately I think this is the crux of our discussion in this thread.  We should all strive for a loving and nurturing relationship  -care and reciprocity.

I did not deserve to face the consequences of my actions.

I agree we have to take responsibility for our actions. Understand the context, accept, understand and grow from our life experiences.  This is where we are different from people suffering from personality disorders, we are more easily able to understand how our actions effect those around us. 

I desire his well being, despite continued hurtful behavior on his part.  That doesn't mean I have to remain in relationship with him

I have nothing but pity for my ex.  I am as certain as I can be she suffers from borderline personality disorder.  She has a beautiful soul, but lives in an incredibly dark world full of pain and fear.  I cannot see a happy ending to her existence.  It was ultimately my compassion for her which lead me to begin posting on BPD Family.  She treated me poorly, but in her way loved me dearly.  I have no ill will toward her -we both did the best we could. 

I have often wished I could find it within myself to be angry with her -I cannot.  Anger would be a quick fix to quench the longing I still feel of the dream we lost.  'Processing losses that we aren't allowed to grieve'. 

I feel in pushing me away, I believe, she lost her best chance at a nurturing relationship --however I could not allow myself to very likely be consumed.  It appeared she was making progress, but from what I have read about BPD she very likely would have become 'tolerant' to my love and the curative effects would have wained.  Such a tragic disorder.

As human beings we must introspect, learn and grow from our life experiences.  The good and the bad.  We must accept our fallibility and love ourselves. 

We must learn to say 'I' and mean it with the full weight and understanding such a bold statement implies.


Wicker Man

PS I helped an elderly woman with her groceries a few moments ago... .She said 'You are such a gentleman'  I answered to myself... .'That depends upon whom you ask'

[Wicker Man]

"It takes Deep Thought 7½ million years to compute and check the answer, which turns out to be 42"

43! You will be in the 'prime' of your life. 

... .and yes -- I know where my towel is.

If I were not so big I would have never had my lunch money... .


Wicker Man

[BeagleGirl]

43! You will be in the 'prime' of your life. 

I         that!  Now I am actually looking forward to my next birthday.

And I'm still chuckling about Hammurabi being a bad husband.

[Wicker Man]

Now I am actually looking forward to my next birthday.

Oh good!  It just occurred to me on the off chance you didn't know what prime numbers were you might have taken my remark wrong.  This has been a year of over thinking things on my part. 

I'll be prime again next year at 53.  My next birthday will be better than the last.  Dream Come True was raging on my birthday, forgot the date and actually broke off our engagement.  ugh... .people... .



Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Hi all,

Again, a lot to talk about here! I’m sure we’ll have to do a second thread as we’re rapidly approaching 6 pages! I like how this has become a group of us sitting around in chairs, facing each other, talking and sharing and not just a spotlight on me! I hate spotlights on me!

I think one of the things that made my situation particularly hard is my friend and I…we actually didn’t see each other in person a lot. We wrote. Or rather, I wrote, he read, and I daydreamed. So, he was in places I could not avoid once it ended - my computer and everywhere I daydreamed! I did a lot of daydreaming in those times. Rather than take up drinking, sometimes I kinda wish I had just done that and only hurt myself, or find some other escape from my pain, I could just call him up in my thoughts, replay the movies of us in my head and just escape the rest of my often miserable life.

So, he was in the clouds, in the flowers I’d see while walking to work, the bunnies I'd see on my bike rides, heck, even in a wrapper for a type of mint that stayed on the same spot on the ground for years that I would pass on my walks that reminded me of him. I never wanted to pick it up, the wrapper,  because seeing it there was a reminder of him, made me feel less alone. (It was a type of mint he had on him when we traveled together years ago when were young.) Pretty sad how I needed that as a form of happiness in life…that that piece of trash on the ground was one of the happiest things in my life.

It made it hard not to want to contact him. I really struggled with that, especially because I was still not sure, and am still not sure, this relationship is off or on…That is the crux of the problem for me and why this, for me, is more about a psychological break for me…I dunno. Being told we’re together, we’re not, we’re together, we’re not made my brain malfunction. I’m scared I don’t know how to pin this down. I can’t in the long run remain with someone who does this, no matter how nice a white phase might be. And the white phases aren’t that great either really because it is just a lull before another wave of degradation, mistreatment, and pain.

So anyway, after it happened I let myself miss him a little, my friend, but only when alone, and not much then either because I was afraid of my own thoughts due to the way my SO invaded my privacy (more on this later). If a smile ever came over my face at the wrong time, and I didn’t have a “good explanation” for it I’d catch hell for it.

Oh, I am reminded of one times I saw him, during the 9 mo.’s, and how I just doubled over in pain while driving when a song came on that reminded me of a night we were together. “Let me photograph you in this light incase it is the last time…” the lyrics go. It was never sure I’d ever see him again or these were our few hours and all we’d ever have…and it was all we had. I paid dearly for those few hours…but honestly…I’d gladly give up the rest of my life for just a few truly happy hours with someone who loved me like he did, made me so happy.

We were so shy and tentative with each other. Neither of us knowing what to do…and the sadness that hung over our meetings…I remember he drove me to romantic spot, we talked a bit as it started to lightly snow outside, we got out of the car to see the view of the city and he wrapped his arms around me from behind and gave me a brief hug, then turned me around, after telling me some nice stories about his city, and then asked to take a picture of me. That moment, to see him want to hold on to a small piece of me too…Oh that view, and to be that close to happiness, for just a brief time. It was such a beautiful night…despite it happening at the wrong time in my life…

I still think of him in some of these spots I walk by, though the pain of attachment is mostly gone now. I hoped if I could wait it out it would fade and hurt me less, and it mercifully does. For awhile I carried a deep dream he’d be back at some later point in my life when his kids are grown and he’s free, in his mind, to make other choices. I think in some ways just that small hope consoled me from the abject pain of my life post him, but I have nearly given that up now…Honestly, him as a good memory in my life, that was all I really wanted. Not a tainted sad memory. I wish we had not found each other again because he was much more valuable to me as a purely good memory in life (from our 20s). That is one of the biggest parts of the loss, to have lost this pure, dear memory by having it tainted by all the troubles and pain of the present era of my life.

thanks, pearl.

[spacecadet]

Hi all, reading this thread with such a lovely flow, and it's meaningful to me that you all are very free to express your innermost selves. Very soulful.

I'm sorry Pearlsw that you have gone through such torment. And Wicker and Beaglegirl too. I've never had an affair but was sorely tempted toward the end of my marriage, so deep was my unhappiness. I'd awaken every morning thinking, "Why do I not drive off a cliff today? There must be a good reason but none comes to mind." I left him instead, who knows that may have left more scars than if I'd stepped out.

This comment especially stood out for me:

I paid dearly for those few hours…but honestly…I’d gladly give up the rest of my life for just a few truly happy hours with someone who loved me like he did, made me so happy.

I think many of us had moments like this with bpex, me among them. But for me that moment has passed, and I yearn more for, and am in fact receiving, the gift of friends who connect with me for who I am, can talk things out and be present for both the quotidian and the deeper emotions. People who are steadfast. Maybe I'll feel this longing again. Feelings are ever shifting, and that very deep deep longing I associate with longing for union with the divine. For now the calm is welcome, another passage on the way to union.

But I hesitated to post here, because by no means would I want to steer this conversation in another direction than it's been, a raw and unedited recitation of the feelings, dreams and deepest wishes of our heart. It's beautiful. Brings to mind... .

Psalm 77:6: "I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search."

And Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living."

And one of my favorite quotes... .the Gospel of Thomas says, “If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.”

This whole post strikes me as a marvelous manifestation of this outlook. It's beautiful.

[Wicker Man]

I like how this has become a group of us sitting around in chairs, facing each other, talking and sharing and not just a spotlight on me!

Pearlsw You have started this robust conversation and I would ask that you let the light shine on you.  When you being a new thread please consider setting our agenda.  Let us know where you would like to take this conversation. 

My race is run and the die is cast.  I have a firm idea of where I am heading in my relationship and how to get there.  --I would ask you to consider the question what do you want and need from this thread?

"Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and, under Providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire" -Churchill

We wrote. Or rather, I wrote, he read, and I daydreamed. So, he was in places I could not avoid once it ended - my computer

The affair in the modern era.  I remember like it was yesterday waking up each morning to see what she had sent me.  I would write her loving letters daily.  There is an amazing seduction in the anticipation. 

Now I check my phone and continue to be proud of her for not contacting me -I should imagine it is excruciation for her.

... .take up drinking, sometimes I kinda wish I had just done that and only hurt myself.

There are no answers to be found in a bottle.  I am of Irish heritage and I have seen all too well what actually lies in the bottle of a whisky bottle -it killed my grandmother, 2 great uncles, an aunt and ultimately my father succumbed.  I keep a weather eye on my drinking.

You seem to be a marvelously sensitive woman and it would be a tragedy to drown yourself in that drug.  Like any drug you become tolerant and slowly start chasing it --more and more to get the release.

Once again here I am the 'coping model'  Since returning home I am drinking a bit too much again.  It was a habit, I believe, which began in  response to my wife's OC(PD) --alcohol was the only way for her to stop the intensity of her disorder.  Her drinking was one of the things which made me want to bolt.  I was drinking too, but never to the level she had been.  We are working on it currently. 

While I was with ':)ream Come True' we had completely stopped drinking.  She could literally forget about our relationship when she drank -borderlines seem to have issues with impulse control -she could not stop drinking once she started.   One of her suicide attempts was drinking herself to death and she nearly succeeded.  The few times I believe she cheated on us alcohol was involved.  BPD and alcohol seems to be a very bad combination.

I can’t in the long run remain with someone who does this, no matter how nice a white phase might be. And the white phases aren’t that great either really because it is just a lull before another wave of degradation, mistreatment, and pain.

Pearlsw there is no doubt in my mind your marriage cannot continue in its present incarnation.  From what you have written the decision seems to be whether or not you are willing to spend the time and herculean effort to try to change it.  Therapy is not magic -it simply allows us to examine what is within. 

Couple's counseling gives both parties in a damaged marriage a safe place to discuss topics too loaded to address on their own. 

E.g. disclosing my affair had to be done with the moderation of a couple's counselor.  When my wife would start to shut down or her rage would spin up the therapist would ease the throttle down on the conversation and bring it back to something constructive. 

I spent nearly 100 hours preparing for this disclosure balancing the information, vetting it and distilling it.  As I mentioned earlier, it could not be 'my confession'. The disclosure had to be a throughal account of the events which transpired.  The goal was my wife's understanding, not my absolution.  I give this merely as an example. 

I am not implying you need to say any more or less about your affair to your husband -but there are plenty of other highly loaded issues for the two of you to discuss from what I understand about your marriage.

If a smile ever came over my face at the wrong time, and I didn’t have a “good explanation” for it I’d catch hell for it.

It is statements like this which reinforce my believe something has to change.  Dissolution or reconciliation, but change.

“Let me photograph you in this light incase it is the last time…” the lyrics go. It was never sure I’d ever see him again or these were our few hours and all we’d ever have…and it was all we had.

Pearlsw this is heart rending and unfortunately I know the feeling precisely.  I am a photographer of sorts by trade and there are few songs which will bring me to tears.  I took photos of her which I am hoping I will be strong enough to never see again and songs which will never be the same.  I archived the photos but could not bring myself to destroy them.  There is one in particular I took of her sleeping while we were in HongKong it is a lovely portrait and she looks completely at peace.

I’d gladly give up the rest of my life for just a few truly happy hours with someone who loved me like he did, made me so happy.

There is love in the world.

'We don't find love by chasing after it; we simply open our hearts and find it within us'  --Charlotte Kasl

For awhile I carried a deep dream he’d be back at some later point in my life when his kids are grown and he’s free, in his mind, to make other choices. I think in some ways just that small hope consoled me from the abject pain of my life post him, but I have nearly given that up now…

As beautiful as your time with him had been it is, in my opinion, important to focus on yourself in the here and now.  You have so many conflicting emotions and you are being pulled in so many directions it will be a tall order -but try to find your center.  A quiet place and think about what is best for you. --let the spotlight shine on you.

That is one of the biggest parts of the loss, to have lost this pure, dear memory by having it tainted by all the troubles and pain of the present era of my life.

Pearlsw I would like to reiterate what I said to Joe -You are human and thus fallible.  We do the best we can in each moment.  Accept your past and focus on the present. 

I do this will limited success... .  Day by day I am getting stronger and the world seems a little less grey.

Wicker Man

[BeagleGirl]

Pearl,
I'm going to second WickerMan's encouragement to start to ask yourself what you want and need as you move forward.  It is entirely acceptable to stand at the edge of the unknown and turn and look at what is behind you.  I believe that you started this processing and grieving with a purpose that you may not even have acknowledged at the time, but I think it may be time for you to start asking "I am letting go of some things, leaving my hands empty and ready to grasp... .what?"

That said, know that we aren't going to sneak up behind you and push you over the edge or abandon you if we feel like you're camping out in one place too long.  This is your journey and we are honored to be companions on this journey.

BG

[pearlsw]

Pearl,
I'm going to second WickerMan's encouragement to start to ask yourself what you want and need as you move forward.  

BG

Hey BG,

Thanks very much! Thanks all! Wickerman and spacecadet too! (Still catching up on replies here)  I think part of what I wanted was just to turn on shut down parts of my brain again to have a look and see what's what. I notice I am a lot more emotionally numb than I realized. This is something I am observing and mulling over a response to for myself. I like to work with myself to fix me or let me be.

The downside of talking about this stuff is it does bring up a wee bit of longing for my friend. After all, it occurred to me many times along the way, that all I had to do to end that part of the pain is leave my SO and then we would be free to be in contact again if we both wanted, as friends or as more. For various reasons, I did not choose that route. I put myself on some kind of path to "redemption" and wanting to lead an honest, singular life, but I know that this relationship has significant issues, and I am grappling with those on my own and sometimes here.

To be honest, I've done what I can, but the therapy route is not super appealing for me in life anymore. I know people like to recommend therapy for all manner of things, and I think it can be helpful, but I've personally never found sitting in a room with a stranger (who makes me feel like a human/cultural oddity) and airing my thoughts (I'm articulate and can see myself clearly) that helpful when compared to talking to friends, or turning to myself, and simply getting on in life. I am not as emotional as my SO and his emotions are overwhelming at times because he cannot manage them. I have gotten emotional at times too, but I can manage mine as needed. I can be supportive, but I am not going to do his emotional work in life.

I can see my thoughts clearly (eventually if not right off the bat) and know that basically the best things for me in life are exercise, having a few good friends, meditation and looking at/listening to my own thoughts. And it's free. I am amazingly healthy I think, though I see the parts of my brain that do break down at times, the thought patterns that make life harder at times. I am insightful and resilient and that has taken me far.

To be honest, I am not sure I have enough respect or trust for him after all that has happened in order to save this the "proper way" or better, the way that is working for you. I do believe this relationship could go on and on for a long time if I keep showing up for it, but nothing will get better until the fundamental flaw is put to an end - the break up threats. It is the fundamental psychological damage of this that led to the problem. I am clear on that and insist upon it unwaveringly. I was/am being emotionally abused and it was/is too much for me. Even he agrees to that stipulation. I cannot continue on with such emotional abuse, that is the hardest part, wanting it to work on some fundamental level and knowing it is unlikely to because he has so much trouble controlling himself. He insists he'll stop doing it, but he hasn't so far. I believe he has multiple mental health issues, and the health system isn't likely to help us. (Geez, it's taken him 5 fruitless years to figure out and treat his back pain, and we can't even get that sorted out entirely.)

I would prefer he recover and heal separately from me in terms of his feelings regarding me and my friend. I have done what I can and cannot do more with someone who is so extreme at times. I will not revisit the level of emotional explosions I dealt with for the last year and a half, they have damaged my health and I cannot heal his wounds on this. I need peace and calm more than emotional volcanic eruptions, even if it means I'm alone in life in the long run without a life partner. In my view, he does not have the background knowledge to make a trip to therapy efficient and effective enough for my tastes to be honest. In some ways he's great, in other ways he's like dealing with someone from another century of human history in terms of his grasp of psychology. It requires building an entire foundation beforehand that I am not equipped to build, a common vocabulary/world view that simply does not exist between us.

My concern is me and should have always been me, not this or any relationship. I am not convinced there is way forward together because the climb is too steep. I got in over my head when I got pulled into his orbit. I thought he "had himself together" when we met and was a reasonably minded person and would heal and recover in time with some loving support from me as an extra bonus. Instead he sucked the life out of me and destroyed our love and damaged as many parts of my life he could touch - that is how I see it, and he'd actually probably agree.

Wickerman, are you and your wife from the same culture? Share the same values and common vocabulary around the benefits of psychology?

warmly, pearl.

[Wicker Man]

The downside of talking about this stuff is it does bring up a wee bit of longing for my friend. After all, it occurred to me many times along the way, that all I had to do to end that part of the pain is leave my SO and then we would be free to be in contact again if we both wanted, as friends or as more.

From what I was reading yesterday anytime we have 'positive' thoughts about our affair partners creates a tiny burst of dopamine -a small high.
 
As I have mentioned I have having a hell of a time getting ':)ream Come True' out of my heart.  It still brings me twinges of pain and emotional confusion.  Slowly I am trying to extinguish these thoughts and focus on myself and my wife.  My wife triggered yesterday over a conversation we were having about clothing.  It does take time to re-earn trust.

... .the therapy route is not super appealing for me in life anymore. I know people like to recommend therapy for all manner of things

Ha! yes... .I am one of those people.  I had never gone to therapy before.  I consider myself to be introspective, insightful and fairly well grounded.  I also got myself way in over my head.  My 25 year relationship with my wife had taken a toll on me glacially -the debt I was incurring with myself emotionally crept down into my soul day by day, year by year.  I thought I was myself, but I had slowly become someone else.  The affair was this altered self erupting through the mist of my subconscious. 

I find myself now trying to relearn who I am, to reconcile who I thought I was with who and what I have become.  My therapist has helped me with strategies for reconciling my marriage -he has also help me ask myself the tough questions -Was I right to leave Dream Come True?  How much has leaving her cost me?  It is right to reconcile with my wife?  How much can I expect from my wife regarding her personality disorder?  How to deal with the changes in my career?  I had far too much on my plate to contend with alone.
 
I have challenged my therapist as well.  Apparently in our time together I have changed his view on how to disclose an affair. I am fortunate he is a good man and very committed.  One session he told me his next appointment cancelled -so we ran over by 45 minutes.  If I send him a note he responds. 

On the other hand our couple's counselor throws us out at 50 minutes and will not respond to any discourse.  He is a tool -in every meaning of the word (tool can be used as a pejorative in America slang) -but he is good enough to give my wife and I a safe place to talk about emotionally charged issues.

I can see my thoughts clearly

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, but here I am going to offer you a word of caution.  It is diabolically hard to step out of a system and observe it, much less change it.  As I said I consider myself insightful and spend a good bit of time on introspection -but I had no idea how unhappy I had become.  I read a good bit of philosophy but found myself blinded to my emotional state (the system I was in).  Now rereading the very same books I have found they take on a different meaning. 
When I read 'A Road Less Travelled' right after I announced my divorce it told me to run to Dream Come True -the same book now reads with a completely different tone.  Der Ton macht die Musik (the tone makes the music).  Art changes as we change.  I simply could not see that I had changed.

I am insightful and resilient and that has taken me far.

If I didn't see this in you we would not be having this conversation.  You are special, gifted and rare.

To be honest, I am not sure I have enough respect or trust for him after all that has happened in order to save this the "proper way" or better, the way that is working for you.

We are doing this the only way we know how.  I am certain if we had not had the 'safety' of couple's counseling we would have never gotten through the disclosure of our affair.  With all the Kings horses and all the King's men there would have been nothing I could have done to staunch my wife's rage. 

I could have never caused the breaks in the conversation which the therapist was able to enforce.  When someone falls into diffuse physiological arousal -fight flight response they can't hear you anymore.  This is similar to when the border lines we all have know and loved dysregulate --they can't hear us. 

Even with all the vetting and all the care I took with what I disclosed it was unimaginably painful for my wife to hear.  It hit every panic button she had at once.  She was demanding detail which would have only been hurtful and the therapist was able to explain and mitigate.  If I had attempted to 'withhold' any detail on my own it would have been seen as 'stonewalling'. 

I do believe this relationship could go on and on for a long time if I keep showing up for it, but nothing will get better until the fundamental flaw is put to an end - the break up threats... ... ..Even he agrees to that stipulation. I cannot continue on with such emotional abuse

In my opinion the breakup threats at symptomatic of deeper issues in your husband and the marriage.  I should guess if you attempt reconciliation there will be a lot to unwind.  If he does in fact suffer from BPD, from what I have read, there will be a lot of work ahead of you.  It is not common wisdom here on BPD Family, but from what my therapist has told me when a relationship with a person suffering from BPD works it can be quite wonderful.  On the other hand there are thousands of posts here which clearly illuminate the other edge of that sword.

I would prefer he recover and heal separately from me in terms of his feelings regarding me and my friend.

In my opinion if there is any hope for progress it would take your husband not just attending therapy, but embracing it.  If he suffers from BPD this is a tall order for him.  Hell!  I am just a normal 'neurotic' and it is hard for me.  It was hard to admit to myself I needed help -I made it 51 years self nurturing, however, slowly the wheels flew off and I needed help.

I will not revisit the level of emotional explosions I dealt with for the last year and a half, they have damaged my health and I cannot heal his wounds on this.

From what I have read it is all but impossible to help our BPD loved ones if they do not embrace therapy.  Personality disorders are a world view, always there and always on.  If he suffers internally, as I have read they do, it is a long hard road to finding any level of solace. 

Dr. John Gottman (Marriage Clinic) writes that contempt is the greatest single marker to predict the failure of a marriage.  I wrote in my journal 'The contempt in our marriage must stop --it was the contempt my wife feels for herself to which I was referring!  Her suffering from OC(PD) means she has an endless dialogue of contempt -she can never do enough, be good enough, smart enough and so on.

Now... .Compare this to the inner dialogue of someone suffering from BPD!  People suffering from personality disorders, B cluster or otherwise, cannot get any relief on their own.  I did my best to be supportive and 'help' my wife for 24 years and I was never able to give her any lasting relief. 

Therapy has slowly begun driving a wedge between her and her disorder.  OC(PD) is a walk in the park when compared to B(PD).  I have read B(PD) has aspects of many personality disorders it incredibly painful, hard to diagnose and even more difficult to treat.

In my view, he does not have the background knowledge to make a trip to therapy efficient and effective enough for my tastes to be honest. In some ways he's great, in other ways he's like dealing with someone from another century of human history in terms of his grasp of psychology.

It sounds like you are describing most men... .  I realize some of the other issues you have going on with culture and language, but it might be worth a try.  He might surprise you (I mean in a good way this time).

It requires building an entire foundation beforehand that I am not equipped to build, a common vocabulary/world view that simply does not exist between us.

I agree.  You have done the best you could without outside intervention.  Even if you choose not to consult a therapist for yourself, in my opinion, the only hope for a healthy reconciliation would be for him to go to individual therapy and for the two of you to go to couples counseling.  Your marriage as it stands, in my understanding, is simply too much to handle without a good bit of outside intervention.

My concern is me and should have always been me, not this or any relationship. I am not convinced there is way forward together because the climb is too steep.

Yep.  Pearlsw first.  Perhaps it is not worth trying to fix your marriage --this is a decision for you and you alone.  Anyone who tells you definitely to go or stay is in my humble opinion an ass.  This is a huge life decision and one only Pearlsw can make.  There are a lot of factors to consider, but they are for your consideration alone.  We, as concerned, bystanders may offer advice, listed and commiserate -but we cannot make a decision for you.  Too often people on this board say 'run' -they mean well, but we must not make other people's decisions for them. 

I got in over my head when I got pulled into his orbit.

Oh my God you said it sister!  Dream Come True shook me to my foundation -we tore each other's hearts out.  As I have mentioned she is still wearing my mother's engagement ring.  I have experienced depths of pain previously unimaginable -a loss of innocence.

Instead he sucked the life out of me and destroyed our love and damaged as many parts of my life he could touch - that is how I see it, and he'd actually probably agree.

Dream Come True I have to believe would have done the same to me.  I am not certain how she would have felt about my destruction. 

My best guess is she would have simply one day disappeared.  I would have found myself homeless, with a baby, an expiring visa, a damaged career and an empty heart.  This is a hell of a thing to say about the person I loved most on this Earth isn't it?

Wickerman, are you and your wife from the same culture? Share the same values and common vocabulary around the benefits of psychology?

I see where you are going with this... .Well played... .  Yes my wife and I are both originally from the Mid-Western US.  However, her mother made my wife very suspicious of therapy and sensitive introspection.  Of the two of us my world view is much more feminine than hers. 

I like to talk about feelings and my wife is quite uncomfortable with the notion.  Her mother was a rage fueled monster -my wife agrees with this assessment.  Her mother actually would plan evil -premeditated evil!  Her mother enjoyed creating discord and pain.  It has been incredibly difficult for my wife to embrace therapy.  As a point of fact I believe we would have never gotten the help we need without the shock of my affair. 

Previously I had threatened to leave her if we didn't go to couple's counseling.  I backed down.  We were on a cycle of abuse any my work.  I love my work so much it was an escape, just as the abuse would become too much I would get another job and it would reset the clock. 

something... .something... .25 years later.  Time flies whether you are having fun or not.  However, after so many years... .one day I didn't come back from work --more accurately I came back, but left my heart in China.

Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Man Wickerman!

You write the best replies! So insightful, thoughtful and they stimulate me to think and go into new areas with this!

I will reply more soon, weekdays I can write more, but just wanted to acknowledge how much you give here to us all!

with deep gratitude and respect, pearl. 

[Wicker Man]

Weekends are the same for me.  My activity here is the last of my ‘deception’.  I do not wish to confess having needed a support group to process the loss of Dream Come True.

Have a pleasant Weekend. 

Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Weekends are the same for me.  My activity here is the last of my ‘deception’.  I do not wish to confess having needed a support group to process the loss of Dream Come True.

Have a pleasant Weekend. 

Wicker Man

I hear ya! I am a bit conflicted over this. I feel I need a support group to function in this relationship and yet my posting here, having to hide it, has actually caused me a lot of grief and turmoil. It's a Catch-22. I am not sure how to resolve it yet... .

Talk to ya soon!

~pearl.

[Wicker Man]

Catch-22. I am not sure how to resolve it yet... .

What is more when we post here, at least speaking for myself, I get that little dopamine hit -similar to when I have a positive thought about Dream Come True.  There is an element of escapism for me here -I have been trying to keep an eye on myself. 

Yes -working things out on this BBD is cathartic and important --BPD Family is an irreplaceable resource.  However, personally I have to take care I am not using my time here on the boards to avoid working on myself and my relationship with my wife. 

My situation is unique -in that my wife is not my person with BPD and my ex lover is no longer in my life.

I guess what I am saying here is... .Yep... .Catch 22.  Great book -but a tough paradeigm to live in.

Wicker Man

[Harri]

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