Advice please

[CoherentMoose]

Hello. I've been lurking for a while and find the discussions in here very useful. Very, very useful actually.

I have some questions.

1. Can individual counseling be used against someone in court? The desired therapy is to gain skills in boundary setting, building self-esteem, and obtaining skills in defusing/ending circular (never ending!) arguments and gas-lighting parenting skills.

2. How does one go about finding a good therapist for a non-BP in Southern CA who is skilled in helping the non deal with the pressure cooker? Any advice will be appreciated.

3. How important is counseling prior to and during the divorce process?

4. How are initial shared parenting plans documented for the court when the divorce paperwork is filed in court? There is a six month waiting period in CA before the divorce can be finalized. The desire is for a 50/50 shared parenting plan with very limited contact between the BP and the Non-BP once papers are filed. Parental contact preferably through email only. Custody exchanges will be at school for drop off, after-school care for pick up to avoid emotional parental interactions with the kids near. 

5. The hope is to proceed through mediation to minimize legal costs. If the BP refuses to go to mediation, or if the BP refuses to come to any agreement during mediation, what are the options at that point?

Thank you for your time and advice.

jdc

[kells76]

Hi jdc, welcome to the board! I also started out as a lurker until things got dicey enough that I joined and started asking my own questions, too. Sounds like you have some specific stuff going on you'd like advice about. This is a good group with a lot of "been there done that" experience, so I'm hoping some long timers will chime in on your post.

I'll give some food for though to start things off... .

1. Would the individual counseling be for you? Are you concerned that your soon-to-be-ex-spouse will hold that over you in court -- like you're the one with all the problems? To quote another member here, "Courts LOVE counseling".

 One way you can think about it is like this: you can approach the conflicts and problems coming at you like boxing, where you stand up and punch and pound against your opponent. Or, you can approach it like jiu-jitsu, where you use your opponent's energy against them, and being flat on your back on the ground can be really advantageous.

So, counseling. Boxing approach: "Your honor, there's nothing wrong with me. I fixed it all after one session. I'm fine and don't need counseling!" Jiu-jitsu approach: "Your honor, I'm committed to being the best parent I can be. Absolutely I'm in counseling. The objective feedback of a professional third party is critical for our child's well-being, as I'm sure you'd agree. Even though Ex Spouse has not made it their priority, I continue to build skills to benefit our child. Please don't hesitate to talk with Therapist if you have any concerns."

2. Have you heard of Dr. Craig Childress? He's a psychologist who is based in Claremont, according to his web site. There are lots of good articles on his site about pathogenic parenting, and he sounds skilled in family dynamics. It's possible he could point you to an individual therapist in the area who would have experience with your type of situation. Edit -- sounds like he may take individual adult clients as well as kids and families.

3. Speaking as a stepmom (husband had two girls with their mom) counseling was worth every last penny we spent. Having an objective eye on our marriage, our step/parenting behaviors, the crazy emails we got from Mom and Stepdad, was incredibly helpful. Long story but once the kids finally got a counselor of their own, we were able to have our counselor (who, again long story had actually met with Mom and Stepdad) talk with her and that professional to professional communication was super helpful. Confirmed a lot of the stuff we thought we'd been seeing. Never had to use counselors in a legal setting but if things had progressed much farther we would've gotten our lawyer & counselor to talk. The more trustworthy 3rd party professionals the better, in our case.

4. I'll let someone with more CA experience field this question

5. Boxing: "What am I gonna do? Ex won't agree! I need to MAKE them agree!" Jiu-jitsu: "no problem. I have my plan made ahead of time with my non-negotiables. Ex may try to make me think I have to do it their way, but that isn't true! I'll ask for more than my bottom line so I have room to negotiate down. If ex chooses to be entitled then I can always be done and move to the next step of my plan."

Hope this helps you out. Keep us posted if you'd like to share some more about you and your situation -- especially how the kid(s) are doing.

kells76

[Turkish]

As a boxer,  I'll let the analogy slide.   Until I boxed (7 years of lessons),  I never knew how nuanced and complex it was.  

My kids take Brazilian jui-jitsu, however,  and from 30k ft, the comparison is apt.  

Regarding number 1: I asked my T this very same question after my ex abandoned me in couple's counseling after one joint session and two individual sessions between her and the T. I asked if it made me look crazy or unstable.  He said, "No. The fact that you continued with therapy demonstrates character on your part." The implication was her lack of it thereof. You are doing the right thing in that regard.  

Turkish

[CoherentMoose]

kells76,
Thank you!
Yes, the therapy would be for me.
The boxing/jiu jitsu analogy is great.
Will look into Dr. Childress and see if anything shakes out.
Be well, and thank you again.

jdc

[kells76]

Sorry Turkish, I was never so good at contact sports

Ok jdc, keep us posted on how things go. Lots of people here for you if more help is needed.

[CoherentMoose]

Turkish,

Heh, point on boxing well taken. I took a boxing class for a year or so for exercise. More exercise than boxing thank goodness. It is a difficult and challenging sport.

Thanks for your positive comment on therapy.

jdc

[Turkish]

Dr. Childress, which kells76 mentioned, big 

I follow him on Facebook too even though my situation now is relatively tame. He's given the best and easiest to understand summaries of BPD and NPD pathologies that I've seen regarding parental alienation pathogenic parenting.

[ForeverDad]

Kells76 hit bullseyes with her response.  Yes, divorce is a scary concept, especially when the spouse has been claiming you'll be blamed for all the problems and you'll look worse than the spouse.  Actually, most here discovered that many of our courts tried to ignore the ongoing conflict, apparently they believe the conflict will lessen once the parents get used to separate lives.  Well, that's probably true for 90% of the cases.  However, that approach leaves the 10% of us with PD-driven conflict exposed targets for our cases.

I recall in my divorce the court studiously ignored the ongoing conflict.  I had to ask my magistrate 3 times for access to my son's therapy records.  You see, court had defaulted to gifting mother temp custody and temp majority time so the children's counseling quasi-agency viewed mother's claims as overwhelming and ignored my requests.  Okay, they didn't ignore them, they told me to file for access and then they responded with a form letter stating I was likely to be a danger to my child or others.  Yet I had the 'standard' alternate weekends typically assigned to fathers in my county.  The first time the magistrate asked me to request again.  All I got back was literally a photocopy of their prior rejection.  The second time the magistrate got my stbEx to agree to sign any paperwork necessary for me to have access.  Crickets.  The third time my lawyer filed a motion for me to have access to my preschooler's records.  I received over 200 pages within two days.  My first contact with the counselors was in Feb 2006, after I had received a 3 month recertification letter from my insurance, my first indication of counseling.  I finally got results in April 2007, it was a black hole about my son for over a year.

The counseling did help, it just had a bad start since they felt they had to obey the temporary custodial parent that I was dangerous.  Both parents started alternating sessions after the divorce resulted in equal time.  Problems continued and I sought and became Legal Guardian upon which mother became irregular and stopped sessions on her time.

Be prepared for your spouse to make horrendous allegations.  If she was your best and most intimate friends before, the acting-out Personality Disorder pattern of thinking will impel your spouse to transform you from past savior to current Mr Evil Personified.

Anticipate sabotage.  (For that reason don't share your strategies until the time is right.)  Expect obstruction right and left in unexpected ways.  You will be blamed and cast as being far worse than your spouse.  (Major blame shifting.  And any time your spouse does something to look bad then she will redouble efforts to make you seem worse.)  Time to switch your mindset from Mr Nice Guy or Ms Nice Gal to Empowered Dad or Empowered Mom.  Blindly appeasing or acquiescing never worked for long, so Boundaries are crucial.  Since your spouse sees herself as having all the authority, then going to court will be an education for your spouse, she will discover that court is The Real Authority, albeit a reluctant one.

Very crucial is that you interview multiple lawyers and choose one that... .

• (1) has experience with difficult cases.  You need more than a lawyer who expects to file forms and hold hands.  You need a proactive lawyer that can handle everything from mediation to trial.
• (2) has strategies that have worked in prior difficult cases.
• (3) has experience in your local court and knows how to select the most reputable Custody Evaluators and other professionals.

About joint custody... .courts typically favor that, they don't want to have one parent feeling the winner and the other feeling the loser, if it can be avoided.  It seems most here don't get full custody, though some have, eventually.  But don't feel stuck if you end up with joint custody.  This is where strategies come in.  If you can demonstrate why you should have the upper hand in decisions, then that may help you getting advantageous tweaks such as Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  It is still joint custody but it is virtually identical to full custody in that after you give notice or make a request, then you can proceed and it is your ex who has to file for mediation or court if the ex is dissatisfied.

About 50/50 parenting time... .  Is that your state's goal, or yours?  If the state, then understand it is expecting both parents to be reasonably normal.  In our cases it is best if we can manage to get majority time.  (Yes, dads seem to have a hard time getting majority time but that's okay, aim high and if you get something less then you can still be an effective parent.)  If your concept of being 'fair' then think again.  Your children need as much time with you as possible.  Most here are Mr Nice Guy or Ms Nice Gal whose personality is to be overly fair and overly nice.  Sorry, when it comes to the kids, you need to fight strategically for their best interests.  No, you don't have to be mean nor fight dirty, but you need to realize you can't "Gift Away" whatever advantages you may have as the Stable Parent.

[ForeverDad]

Society seems to cast fathers as the typical Non-Primary Parent.  "See the kids every other weekend and leave your wallet with CSEA (child support enforcement agency)."  However, that doesn't mean you have to accept that perception.  My mediation failed.  So did my ordered settlement conference, but notice how my spouse's lawyer tried to discourage me into retreating to typical outcomes.

In my own case, I recall when the custody evaluation came out solidly in my favor, though also indicating we should start with Shared Parenting trying to make that work.  The court ordered a Settlement Conference next.  It only lasted about 5 minutes or so.  She reached over the table and with her hand like a claw said she'd claw my eyes out if I tried to get custody.  That was that, the attempt failed, not a surprise.  But before we started I had been sitting alone with my lawyer when her lawyer walked in and sat down.  He explained he was divorced and had alternate weekends.  He asked me to consider that.  In a very rare instance of my mind picking out the absolute best response, I told him, "That sounds fine but I don't think your client would like alternate weekends."   He didn't say another word, he of course already knew the CE's report favored me.  But did you notice the assumption he tried to saddle on me?  So many today have the perception that fathers should only expect to get alternate weekends as sometimes dads.

[Turkish]

When my ex indicated to me she'd take the kids (per her culture), I said that I would liquidate my 401 (k) and sell the house to fight for no less than joint custody.

I found out later that I could only pull about $15k from my account, but I never told her that.  Bluff worked.

[livednlearned]

Hi jdc,

Welcome and hello  

Can you tell us a little more about your BPD spouse? Have you already consulted with an attorney (or 2)?

How your spouse responds will depend on how serious her traits are, and whether she is a high conflict personality (HCP), which is Bill Eddy's label for people who have a PD, recruit negative advocates, have a target of blame (you), and are persuasive blamers. Not all people with BPD are HCPs, but all HCPs have a PD. Since you are worried about therapy being weaponized against you in court, I'm guessing your spouse is HCP?

Eddy also has another way to look at the level of conflict your spouse might express as part of her BPD:

*not dangerous, generally cooperative
*not dangerous, not cooperative
*dangerous, not cooperative

This last one can include domestic violence, false allegations, and legal abuse, and it tends to apply if your spouse has a substance abuse problem, too.

Can individual counseling be used against someone in court? The desired therapy is to gain skills in boundary setting, building self-esteem, and obtaining skills in defusing/ending circular (never ending!) arguments and gas-lighting parenting skills.

Anything can be used against you in court, but that doesn't mean it will be effective   Don't let this concern stop you from seeing a therapist. You can always let your T know that you may be entering a high conflict divorce and ask how things work where you live -- can his or her notes be subpoenaed? Has she ever been subpoenaed before and what might come to light if she was called to testify?

How does one go about finding a good therapist for a non-BP in Southern CA who is skilled in helping the non deal with the pressure cooker? Any advice will be appreciated.

If you feel comfortable, can you tell us a little more about what your particular pressure cooker is like? How old are the kids? Is there substance abuse or DV? If I were looking for a therapist over again, I would interview two or three and let them know that I was in a relationship with someone I suspected had a PD, and that I needed help not only understanding how to safely set limits and boundaries, but also how to make sure I didn't sabotage myself during the divorce simply to avoid conflict.

How important is counseling prior to and during the divorce process?

It's as important as having a good lawyer.

How are initial shared parenting plans documented for the court when the divorce paperwork is filed in court? There is a six month waiting period in CA before the divorce can be finalized. The desire is for a 50/50 shared parenting plan with very limited contact between the BP and the Non-BP once papers are filed. Parental contact preferably through email only. Custody exchanges will be at school for drop off, after-school care for pick up to avoid emotional parental interactions with the kids near.

Divorce decree (dismantling the adult relationship) is different than the custody arrangement (visitation and such of the minor children). The divorce decree can be granted, while the custody issues may (tend to) take on a life of their own. Most of us end up back in court to tighten up a loophole or ask for more custody.

One important thing to note is that lawyers can draft what in my state are called "temporary" orders that are pretty much the template for what will become permanent. If that's the case where you live, don't let the temporary label fool you. Judges will figure that if you could do something for a temporary period, you can do it permanently, so for the most part they go ahead and rule on status quo.

The hope is to proceed through mediation to minimize legal costs. If the BP refuses to go to mediation, or if the BP refuses to come to any agreement during mediation, what are the options at that point?

If she is a high-conflict personality, count on her to obstruct and plan for them. Think about any leverage you might have and use it wisely. Negotiate for something much higher than what you will settle for so that compromise is actually what you were initially aiming for. For example, if you want 50/50, ask for 70/30, if your L thinks that will work.

Whatever pattern of conflict is present in your marriage, it will likely become more pronounced during the divorce.

You might want to ask around and find out if there are mediators who are psychologists as opposed to lawyers in your area (most are attorneys, it seems). If there is a psychologist mediator, he or she may be skilled at dealing with high-conflict people, in which case you might actually get something signed that you can live with. Bill Eddy (author of Splitting and founder of www.highconflictinstitute.com) is in California. Their firm might be able to help you locate a trained mediator.

In which case, lucky you

Otherwise... .if you know your ex will be high conflict, there are other ways to save money even if you land in court (which most of us do, at one point or another). For example, tell your lawyer he or she must not agree to any continuances or extensions without your express consent. Find an L who has a policy to respond to your emails no later than 48 hours after receiving them. Ask if you can work with a less expensive associate L when it comes to drafting paperwork, and then use the L when discussing strategy or litigating your case in court (find an L who is skilled at litigating... .not all of them are). Ask point blank if there are ways you can minimize your bill. I learned to not forward any emails with attachments because my L charged money to open and print attachments. I also created my own binder of documented emails and made it easy for her staff to find the emails that would help her litigate on my behalf. Remember that your L works for you, so insist that you review motions to make sure the language is watertight. I had a really good L, and yet I learned how to make sure that there were clear and reasonable consequences for non-compliance written up so that when we inevitably ended up back in court, the judge would follow what was written in the order and stop giving my ex another bite of the apple.

And last, don't use your lawyer as a therapist, and vice versa. Your L is going to learn things about you that no one else may know, so it's tempting to want to chat and get cozy. If you get that, you might be paying buckets of money for what you could get much cheaper (and more expertly!) from your T.

For mediation, know what your bottom line is and when your ex refuses to budge, cancel mediation and take things to court. There is no need to pay hundreds more dollars in mediation only to learn that your ex is difficult.

Your ex will find it very hard to problem-solve. Her inability to regulate emotions and read reality means you have to work doubly hard to stay emotionally regulated yourself -- that's why having a T is so important. Managing your own emotions will make it so that you can think strategically under tremendous pressure, and help you keep your eye on the long game, which is to stabilize things for you and the kids, and even your ex to whatever extent.

It's also helpful to read about validation and SET (support, empathy, truth) because those skills in particular can help diffuse things while you're cohabitating, and even beyond when you're coparenting (to the extent that is possible). I ended up using the skills with my son -- they're just relationship skills that happen to be essential with people who have BPD, but they are also effective for kids who grew up in homes lacking enough emotional validation.

Keep posting. It really does help. The people on this site have a lot of collective wisdom and truly do care about you.

You're not alone.

LnL

[CoherentMoose]

All,

Thank you for your time and responses. It's nice having someplace to discuss difficult topics.

LnL, right now I'd rate the situation as *not dangerous, not cooperative; however, I'm worried that once the decision is made to proceed with formal detachment, the situation may deteriorate to *dangerous, not cooperative as my SO does not have anyone else to turn too. Fear of the unknown is a big deal right now.

Some more questions.

1. Has anyone used telephone therapy/counseling for non-BP skill building like boundary setting? If so, was it effective? Time is scarce and monitored.
2. Is it better to handle formal notification as a surprise? The wish is to announce the intention to divorce in front of a mediator or counselor as recommended in the Splitting book. The problem is getting my SO to attend any session at all. I'm sure asking the SO to attend something would be very big tip-off. In CA, papers have to be served by someone other than me. I'm struggling to figure out the best way to handle this.

I'm going to go back to lurking for a while as I need to get started on finding some legal help.

Thanks again everyone for your advice.

jdc 

[livednlearned]

Is it better to handle formal notification as a surprise?

You have to think about your own safety and well-being first, and then work from there. If you are concerned she might harm you, or herself, or make false allegations, and even if you just aren't sure, it's best to plan your exit carefully. Not just the divorce announcement, but the minutes and hours, even days and weeks after.

My ex was dangerous and not cooperative and I spent a year planning to leave. I moved important items to a storage locker, including extra clothing, things I might need if I were locked out of the house, as well as irreplaceable items like photo albums and legal documents.

You may not need to go to these lengths. For some people, they were concerned with suicidal ideation and so needed to talk to a therapist or counselor on a hotline to help them come up with a plan for what they should do, plus contingencies. If she threatens suicide, it will help to know what experts recommend. It may be that you calmly let her know that you are concerned about her safety and that you will contact 911 to make sure she stays safe during this period of intense emotion. And then do what you say you will do, and make sure you know what it means in your county or state when an ambulance is called.

I also made sure I had a separate credit card in my name only, and had all my finances in order -- my ex tended to be manic with money when dysregulated, so I took precautions to protect myself there, too.

If you are like a lot of people here, you may want desperately to leave, and at the same time, have no intention to hurt her.

Unfortunately, divorce hurts. It hurts a lot, and by leaving, you are signaling the beginning of living separately, where she will be responsible for herself, including her own emotions, thoughts, and actions.

Have a therapy appointment lined up for yourself after you plan to let her know, if you can.

And be prepared to be surprised! I left abruptly and had a lawyer lined up, so things moved quickly. I had moved my son and I out of the house by the time my ex came home. My lawyer contacted him immediately, and I knew to have my son talk to him on the phone that night, thanks to her advice. N/BPDx became super calm and professional -- he was a lawyer himself -- and seemed to behave rationally. That didn't last long, but it allowed me to pull the bandaid off quickly and get my feet under me before things went off the rails.

What are your concerns about boundary setting?