I believed I was good at regulating my husband's moods

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Moderator Note:
This thread has been continued from a previous thread.

 


No... .you are not good at regulating his moods.  

FF

I believed that I was good at it, at lest I wanted to believe in it. Kind of like being able to influence the weather

[snowglobe]

Moderator Note:
This thread has been continued from a previous thread.

 


No... .you are not good at regulating his moods.  

FF

I believed that I was good at it, at lest I wanted to believe in it. Kind of like being able to influence the weather

[formflier]

I believed that I was good at it, at lest I wanted to believe in it. Kind of like being able to influence the weather

One of the reasons I am extremely uncomfortable with you stopping your relationship with your T... .until that T can hand you off to one in person, is that these types of beliefs are dangerous to be left unaddressed

Very dangerous...

I convinced you are operating from a place where your primary focus is control of another person, especially when compared to control over yourself.

It is very likely your husband is operating from the same place.

When I was operating from a place of attempting to control my wife, i was very unhappy and my life was chaotic.  When I shifted to control myself and by extension protect myself and my values with boundaries, my life has calmed.

I'll be frank:  It's not about DBT, school or any of the other things (many of which are very important)... .it's about where YOUR focus is.

I'm not suggesting your husband is focused on the correct things... this isn't primarily about him.

FF

[snowglobe]

One of the reasons I am extremely uncomfortable with you stopping your relationship with your T... .until that T can hand you off to one in person, is that these types of beliefs are dangerous to be left unaddressed

Very dangerous...

I convinced you are operating from a place where your primary focus is control of another person, especially when compared to control over yourself.

It is very likely your husband is operating from the same place.

When I was operating from a place of attempting to control my wife, i was very unhappy and my life was chaotic.  When I shifted to control myself and by extension protect myself and my values with boundaries, my life has calmed.

I'll be frank:  It's not about DBT, school or any of the other things (many of which are very important)... .it's about where YOUR focus is.

I'm not suggesting your husband is focused on the correct things... this isn't primarily about him.

FF

Wow, what a profound observation, I tend to agree with that. I do operate from place of controlling him, and he is trying to control me as well. I need a moment here. If neither of us is concentrating on our own actions and behaviours, all the while trying to influence another person. We are both left deeply disturbed.
@formflier, what did transition look like for you? How did you start on this journey? What obstacles did you face on your journey? Did your wife ever threaten a divorce? What was your reaction? What did you feel/do? Did you have a whiplash? How long did this transition take? Were you ever physically apart? If you were, how did you maintain long distance relationships? So many questions!
How did you come to find your current T?
I’m convinced that no long lasting change can occur through rapid decisions, behaviours. Act/react mode is short and always comes back to baseline. I leave/ he realizes he was wrong is for fairy tales and impossible. I could really use your experience and expertise to try and replicate your almost academic finding.

[formflier]

I’m convinced that no long lasting change can occur through rapid decisions, behaviours. Act/react mode is short and always comes back to baseline.

Very wise... especially when the underlying mindset or point of view is "off".  Once you shift your "point of view", your "quick" or "intuitive" decisions will generally fall in line with that new point of view... and be ok.

I'm taking a final exam at the moment... .I'll be back in a few hours and answer more of your questions.

The quick answer:  It got bumpier before it got smoother.

FF

[Radcliff]

Snowglobe, I think you and formflier have arrived at a very important conclusion.  You are trying to control your husband, and he is trying to control you.  That's big trouble in about a dozen ways. 

Breaking the pattern is going to be difficult.  It will be uncomfortable for you both, and the forces pushing you both back to old ways of behaving will be immense.  Your conviction is going to need to be firm.  To help get there, let's spend some time on this "controlling each other" issue.

Can you brainstorm for us as many reasons as possible why you trying to control him and him trying to control you is a bad idea?  What are the various bad results from that?

WW

[formflier]

@formflier, what did transition look like for you?

For me, it really started with creating a boundary and holding to it.  I had senior members here warn me that I must hold, and that if I had any doubt, not to even try. 

My e-mail/google password was my first boundary.  I had to take back my privacy.  My wife was rummaging around and creating issues out of emails she didn't understand.  (paranoia is central for my wife).  She was pretending to me me in emails... .damaging relationships.

BAD BAD BAD

So... I changed it.  She acted like she didn't care (over a couple weeks), then some light threats... .and then "she went for it" and just as we were about to have sex sex guided my (umm... .member... .to be polite) out of the way with her hand and whispered in my ear that if I gave her the password... ."she would let me in".

Dude... .that was tough.  I didn't react... .rolled off and said that wouldn't work for me.

Perhaps 10 minutes passed and she acted like she didn't care... .we had sex... and went on like nothing ever happened.

My wife is big on "poof" changes.  "Poof"... this matters... ."poof"... .she never even thought of it before...

How did you start on this journey?

Lots of thinking on bpdfamily, reading SWOE, and determination to take back my life and live my life... .

What obstacles did you face on your journey?

Umm... well... .my wife's hand was an obstacle... for about 10 minutes.

So... .there is no formula that I am aware of where boundaries are popular.  My wife would accuse me of being an ass... and other things.  Really... .once I stopped trying to explain how this was good and I really wasn't an ass... .and I kinda embraced my role.  Took her accusations as a badge of honor.

Well... by then I had won the battle, because I was not going to relent... .so I waited her out.

agreeing with a disorder person is a powerful thing...

Did your wife ever threaten a divorce?

Hundreds of times.  "lawyers" called my house to "return her call", papers were "accidentally" left on the printer... .

I used to try to convince her that she should stop doing that... I would make deals with her to never again threaten divorce... .(hmmmm... .FF was trying to control someone else...

Then... .after people kept asking me why we weren't divorced... it kinda dawned on me... .

the threats were about control... not divorce...

What was your reaction?

see above... they used to  really tear me up

Jame Dobson's book Love must be tough helped.

https://www.amazon.com/Love-Must-Be-Tough-Marriages/dp/141431745X

I don't recommend you read that now... .perhaps later.

What did you feel/do?

It used to tear me up... .

Did you have a whiplash?

Yeah... I know what you mean.  "Poof" she is over there... ."poof" she is over that way... .divorce... together... .I hate you... .bang my brains out... .you always... you never... .

I don't detect much paranoia in your relationship... that is good. 

My wife really thought I had other families for a while... .like... literally I was a polygamist.

For me, once I understood "invalidation" and stopped that.  Paranoia died out... mostly.

How long did this transition take?

Married and "normal" from 1994 to 2009.  Military marriage so it likely masked some stuff.  2009 natural disaster forced us from our farm for about 6 months.  That sucked.  We both had really different reactions.  Paranoia showed up.  I "fed the monster" for a couple years out of ignorance.

late 2013/early 2014 a therapist saw her in action and recommended SWOE and then I found this sight and have been rebuilding/building our relationship back ever since.

I have 8 kids... youngest is 5, so... .stability in home is big thing for me.

Were you ever physically apart? If you were, how did you maintain long distance relationships? So many questions!

Yeah... .but military marriage prepped us for that.  My experience probably isn't relevant to you.

Literally we have spent years apart in our marriage.  That's normal to us.

How did you come to find your current T?

Psychology today and some coaching from a previous PhD family therapist.  We moved.  I needed a new T to continue improvements and I found my current T a couple years ago.

For me... I'm a religious guy.  I think it's a God thing.  I move to new city and find a PhD level psychologist with about 30 years experience... who was married to a wait for it... .you can't believe this... paranoid husband.

So... she has personal experience with a turbulent crazy marriage.  Unfortunately they divorced, he continued a rough life and passed away way to early.  I don't know all details.

So... my T and I do lots of roll-play as I work on my relationship skills.  Luckily my wife participated enough so T could understand her. 

So with a little describing, my T can spot on predict my wife's reaction.

I hope this helps.

FF

[formflier]

My reply was lengthy, but I wanted to answer all your questions.

Please don't let my answers detract from the number 1 thing I think you need to "think deeply" on.

Who do you try to control.

What would life be like if you controlled yourself... .and let your hubby sort himself out.

What would life be like if you declined to be controlled by your hubby?


FF

[Cat Familiar]

Hi DySnowglobe,
I've been following your story for some time and I see a lot of parallels to my first marriage. We shared a business together and he had similar control patterns and threats as your husband. Also we'd been together for a similar amount of time, though we had no children.

Abuse happens gradually in relationships, and if potential partners behaved the way some spouses do, we'd never have gotten involved with them in the first place. Probably for you it happened the same way as it started with my relationship. He began to be critical and complaining and I felt like I wasn't doing enough, or my best, and I tried harder. Then more complaints happened and harsh words and criticisms of my behavior.

Because I grew up with a very critical mother, I assumed that he was right and I kept trying harder to please him. The more I tried, the more he demanded and it seemed no matter how much effort I put into pleasing him, it was never enough. Then the threats began. He'd leave me and he'd take all our money and I'd never see him again. Or he'd commit suicide because I didn't appreciate him enough.

After that, the verbal abuse escalated and then the physical abuse began. He would hit me and leave bruises that weren't apparent to others or he'd knock me to the floor and hit me in the abdomen so that I couldn't breathe. Sometimes he'd have his hands around my throat but he was careful not to leave bruises.

What your husband has done to you is an extreme attack, possibly permanently damaging your vision--I hope not. By law, he should be in jail for this. Yet he's still trying to make it your fault and you don't seem appropriately angry about this.

He can threaten all he likes, but your country has laws to protect wives and children and he has a fiduciary responsibility to provide for you. I would suggest that you contact an attorney and find out what your rights are.

My first husband was always threatening to leave me and he did cheat on me repeatedly. I spent many years living in absolute Hell, trying to make our relationship better. The best thing I ever did was ending it. I'm not advising you to do that, but I do think you need to find out what your legal rights are and perhaps you won't be so vulnerable to his threats and abuse after you know what he owes you by law.

Cat

[snowglobe]

My reply was lengthy, but I wanted to answer all your questions.

Please don't let my answers detract from the number 1 thing I think you need to "think deeply" on.

Who do you try to control.

What would life be like if you controlled yourself... .and let your hubby sort himself out.

What would life be like if you declined to be controlled by your hubby?


FF

@Formflier, I started reading your reply last night, it gave me a tiny glimpse of what I’m certain a very long and hard journey that you’ve been on. There is some paranoia, not whole of a lot between us, and I will explain to you why. We dissected this issue with a current T, I recognize and take responsibility for some of it. I am paranoid that he would cheat, make a financial decision that will ruin us, we will grow apart with the distance and the marriage is inevitably doomed. She tells me that it isn’t paranoia, because it has foundation. More of ptsd or protective mechanism. I’m paranoid that he will cheat, because he talks about doing that, and specific women he would like to do it with. Thus creating a nerratice, making it almost the “next step”. I’m paranoid about “financial ruins”, because he’s done it before. If it was up to him, and I didn’t intervene, we would buy properties way over our budget, just to feed the npd and show it off to our friends and relatives so they would be “green with envy”. We lost obscene amounts of money in his business ventures, he claimed bankruptcy, all of these things happened. The T tells me, not paranoia, only fools don’t learn from past mistakes. I’m paranoid about loosing the family and growing apart, again she tells me I have valid concerns, look at other relationships he has in his life. If the other party doesn’t put in 100%, they die out. My uBPDh is severely handicapped when it comes to interpersonal relationships. He is genius when it comes to tech stuff, avid gun collector, hockey player, active and intelligent. So my question is, if this isn’t paranoia, but a way of protecting myself from pain and possible damage that I always have to clean up (money, kids, relationships, friendships, loans, paperwork, legal aspects). Some things I can let go of, some things are important to me, so I try to fix it to preserve relationships and keep finances in top shape. How would my life look like if I didn’t try and control him? I don’t know, perhaps even more unpredictable? In child psychology we have a method called “errorless teaching”, the basic concept is that you model as many times as needed without giving the child oppprrinity to fail. It removes pressure of performance, relieves agitation and frustration on both parties, and supposedly facilitates learning for those who have difficulty grasping the new material. That is what I have been doing with my uBPDh. I don’t give him a chance to fail, because it also dissapoings and damages Me. That part aside, I know it isn’t working, otherwise I would not be where I’m today.
@formflier, from your objective view, how can I start departing me controlling him?

[snowglobe]

@Formflier, can you tell me more about your friends asking you, when will you get divorced? Is it because you shared with them, or something that your wife said or did? I’m very sensitive to outsiders knowing, every time my uBPDh dysregulates, or splits on me, he informs anyone from handyman  who is repairing our home, to my mother, his mother, friends, family ;”we are fighting”. The rubber Necks around us are gaping and discussing, which makes me uncomfortable. Other people’s opinion isn’t my problem or issue, but with small children that are involved, I don’t want to make it a matter of public gossip. Again, you will say, trying to control him

[snowglobe]

Dear @Catfamiliar, thank you for your reply. I appreciate you sharing your experience with your ex husband, I also see a lot of parallels between our stories. What sets us apart, is that this business that he is running now, started as something we did, investigated, invested in together. Now, however, it’s “his baby”, he lives, breathes and obsessed over it 24/7, I chose to support him on the sideline. The setuation that we arrived at today stems from long history of mutual emotional manipulation, blackmail on his part, ultimatums, and control that alternates between one of us grasping for air. I do hold out hope that we can still survive through it. Although the hope isn’t as strong as it once was. You see, it was easier to absorb the blame and push harder, hold on longer, try to be better for both of us. Once I found out that he has 7 our of 9 BPD traits and started my own journey, I realized just how destructive he is. I already tried the “anticipating him”, kind of like chess player and damage controlling, so I don’t get sucked out too. Clearly a fail. Venturing into unknown is very frightening, realizing that I don’t control the outcome, is defeating. Yet, I’m convinced that with the right help of a trained clinician I can start making the steps towards bettering of my own personal narrative.

[Cat Familiar]

If I were you, I would rid myself of describing legitimate fears as paranoia. What you describe seems like classic NPD/BPD behavior and I've certainly experienced it.

It was devastating to me (and the relationship) to have my husband talk about other women, and not only talk, but actively flirt and leer at women when I was with him. IT WAS SO DISRESPECTFUL.

He also sabotaged our business financially and when we'd finally get all the bills paid and had some extra money, he'd spend it on ridiculous things that he wanted and we'd be back to square one, scrambling to make ends meet and pay utilities.

These sorts of people just do what they want, when they want it, leaving hurt and chaos in their wake and somehow think that the damage they create is other people's fault. I'm not sure they learn from consequences, since in my experience, this very intelligent man that I married just kept creating one disaster after another for nearly the entirety of our marriage. And after I divorced him, he assaulted his next wife, ended up in jail, fled the state to Hawaii before his arraignment, was on the "wanted list" in our county, flew across the country to live in Florida without seeing his elderly mother at the end of her life, then the last I heard of him and his wife is that they didn't pay a bill to a heating and air conditioning company--which kept calling me repeatedly because the Internet is forever and they thought he still lived at my address.

[Radcliff]

Snowglobe, I can relate to trying to manage in an abusive situation in the name of keeping the family together.  There is so much drama, we can't believe everything that is said, so we appear get good at judging the odds around things like relationship threats and physical safety.  This works until it doesn't, as you've experienced with your eye injury.  Have you taken the MOSAIC risk assessment survey yet?  Can I ask you to take it and share your score with us?  I found that reading and answering the questions was very educational.  It is an important step in keeping you safe.

WW