Not sure what to think of this new discovery

[lostandconfused6]

my BPDbf has come to me and told me he feels his biggest struggle with BPD is the "chameleon effect" I read a few articles about it but i'm not sure i agree that or is his biggest problem or even fits at all ... .one article said it only effects highly intelligent people with BPD and  that they should work for the CIA, i feel that statement is what drew him to thinking this fits him and is his biggest problem... .intelligence means more to him than anything in this world and while he is smart i feel he focuses wayyy to much on this and therefor over looks and puts more damaging and real qualities of BPD on the back burner

I don't agree with it for many reasons 1 being that majority of the time he can't figure out day to day simple problems or situations,2  he doesn't hang around anyone but me and his family and he hardly ever tries to be anything like me, i think the only reason he is like his family is because his mom is BPD and certain things have been nurtured into him over his life time, and when we do hang out with friends he doesn't try to mimic them at all or adapt anything about them (especially their way of logical thinking and reasoning) 3 he doesn't adapt to change (or change) at all in any situation for any reason over any amount of time

there are many more reasons but those are the ones i can think of off the top of my head... .i don't want to tell him i disagree or feel he's completely wrong because i feel that will trigger him, but i also don't think him focusing on something that isn't true is going to help... .Maybe i am misunderstanding what i read does anyone have anymore insight or experience or "symptoms" with the chameleon effect

Is it possible he only mirrors the bad? It seems to me if the chameleon effect was his biggest problem he would at least sometimes exhibit the characteristics of a non or a "normal" day to day person

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[WileyCoyote]

Hi there Lost!   

Consider that he might not quite be expressing his thoughts properly.   He might just be expressing the fact that he doesn't know who he is or have a real sense of Self.  That he is constantly trying to present what he thinks others want (you and his family).  This can be incredibly scary and frustrating for a BPD sufferer.  So when they feel they have failed at this, they act out.  (what you see as mirroring bad)

This does not necessarily mean he is acting in different in extremes that you might notice.  His inner world and sense of self might be shifting constantly though and it might not be externally obvious to you.  He is probably being pretty honest with you about this.

Has he ever said something similar to " I don't know who I am anymore"  ?

Thoughts on this interpretation?

[pearlsw]

hi lostandconfused,

do you think identifying with the assertions of the article boosts his self-esteem somehow with regards to BPD? makes him feel “special” about it?

i’m not sure i’d want to take that away from him to get him to agree to the “truth”.

does him being aware of BPD make him want to do anything about it?

with compassion, pearl.

[WileyCoyote]

Pearl has a good point.   He seems to be taking something that troubles him and trying to find something positive in it.   

How do you see that conversation playing out were you try to clarify "his truth" for him.   

[lostandconfused6]

Hey Wiley and Pearl! Thank you for your responses


He actually ended up calling me and wiley you were spot on. he says he feels he doesn't know who he is... .i took notes as he was talking so i could back and try to understand what he means and feels as well as possible.

as far as if it boosts his self esteem i'm not sure... .he has a hard time putting things into words and alot of what he says does come across exactly how he means it... .he says he is working on all the stuff he is finding out but then in the same breathe he says there is nothing he can do about it... .he has finally accepted that his mother is BPD and knows he needs to set boundaries and create distance (move out) but also in the same breathe says he can't be honest with her and can't tell her no but realizes everything she asks him to do or that she is involved in creates a problem... .it's just a mess


The conversation went on for about a hour and went very well... .no yelling no rages ... .he asked my honest opinion and i gave it (i hope it doesn't come back down the road to bite me)

I basically told him i feel a lot of times his words and actions don't line up and that can come across as not being genuine or make it easy for people to think he is lying,  which in turn makes him angry and just because he has good intentions with something it doesn't always come across like that and he doesn't stick to his word often and flip flops a lot (which we both know is something with BPD that happens often) long story short i told him everything he does is a$$ backwards (like he isn't mean or honest to people he doesn't care about so he doesn't create conflict but in turn creates problems that don't need to be there with people he does care about by doing this and this comes across as shady... .yes i am referring to that other girl, sorry... .he has just told me so many times he wasn't honest with her because he didn't want to be mean), he says he is trying to fix this, and i also said if he wants to fix things he needs to try to focus on the problems that effect his day to day life not things he can use to be in the CIA or something else that will never happen to him, more like being on time and sticking to his word and anyone that hinders him from doing this he needs to create space with and possibly cut them out completely he puts up with WAYYY to much and takes on wayyy to much from people that don't give a crap about him 

 ... .i asked him to start jotting down the traits he likes and doesn't like about himself and what his ultimate goal is with what he is "trying to fix" and what he feels he can do to work towards this... .so we will see what happens

[WileyCoyote]

That is good to hear that you were able to talk to him about it so frankly.   It sounds like he is really trying.

Is he seeing a therapist?  I ask because taking notes and asking him to do homework and come back to you to discuss is the behavior of a therapist.  I just want you to think about what you want your role to be here.   Do you want to treally try to be that for him?    If he is seeing someone, you should encourage him to do this work with them.  If he isn't, maybe use these moments of clarity to explain that you don't have the expertise, but maybe a therapist can help him find clarity without the potential of being/feeling judged by someone he cares about.

[lostandconfused6]

I hope he is trying... he is good at saying things he doesn't mean and since he does have a history of lying so much and hiding things it's very hard for me to trust but here i am again trying my hardest to think this time will be different *knock on wood*


No he isn't seeing a therapist, some days he is looking for one other days he is to busy i feel like he is scared so i don't push it but i do suggest it when he is in his "dr Jekyll" midset.

 My struggle comes in with the fact that i do have a psych degree, by no means am i professional but i do know a good bit of the basics and have been studying more about BPD since learning he has it. So even when i don't mean to play therapist sometimes it comes out due to my knowledge and education, I try to suppress it when possible but when he is asking for help and not looking for a therapist it's hard to "play dumb" and act like i don't know what a therapist would tell him to do it's a constant battle within myself between trying to balance and not be his doctor but also not withhold things from him that i know will help ... .I also do see a therapist for my own health and to keep me grounded. I know coming from me it's harder for him to listen to than it would be from a doctor because what i say can come across as self serving becasue yes in the end it would benefit me but i know it would also benefit him... .i am very successful and have been in all aspects of my life (except this relationship ironically) for many years and i am only 30 (i never throw any of this in his face) but i didn't climb the ladder so quickly by not knowing what i'm doing and talking about

unfortunately/fortunately with my degree and field of work i have become exceptionally good at talking to people, reading people, and also sometimes manipulating people into doing what i need/want them too  (not in a malicious or even personal way but for business) i have a tendency to be able to lead people by planting seeds or saying things just the right way... .he doesn't think he is "weak" enough for me to ever do this to him (he has seen me do it multiple times to others) but i have done it to him on many occasions i just choose not to do it as often as i could because that isn't the kind of relationship i want and also my feelings for him do get in the way sometimes. I am very good at balancing everything in my life, except my relationship sometimes, and also separating my feelings and emotions from 1 person to another... .i could be screaming and yelling at a vendor and then talking as nice and sweetly as possible to my BPDbf... .he doesn't have this capability and he has asked me many times to teach him how to do it but i am hesitant because i don't want it to blow up in my face and i also am not sure it can be taught. Also i dont' want to become a teacher to him... .

I'm in a tough situation with knowing the medical side of things and then also being in love with someone that has BPD am i girlfriend or do i share my knowledge of what can help him and be his therapist or do i try to be both? if i'm just girlfriend how so i stop from giving him the therapist side of things? Sometimes it just naturally comes out.

My life in this relationship is a mess... .as much as he struggles i do too

[pearlsw]

hi lostandconfused,

i am still thinking over and processing what is going on here... .i tried to put myself into your SO's shoes and i have no idea how he might take what he hears, but if i was him i'm not so sure i'd want to be under that microscope. i'd feel a bit criticized i think, the things you are saying to him don't sound balanced and i think that is key. sure, we can give our partner's a list of the things they are doing that are "off" or "wrong" but if we don't find a way to also put a lot of focus on other aspects of them, with the intense shame and emotional intensity they feel, they might feel pretty awful, no matter how well-intentioned we are. 

i think you can’t have any kind of therapist role with your partner. but that’s just my two cents. i think you have to check that at the door unless he explicitly allows you to share such opinions. what would your instructors in this field say about this?

wishing you the best, pearl.

[braveSun]

Hey lostandconfused

I'm in a tough situation with knowing the medical side of things and then also being in love with someone that has BPD am i girlfriend or do i share my knowledge of what can help him and be his therapist or do i try to be both?

I see your dilemma. I have been there, simply because of having much information and a lot of patience in me, I did sort of play this role, even the role of a coach with an exBPDgf. It's a slippery slope, though. I have to say, I concur with Pearl, you can't be both and outsmart the disease. It's bigger than one single person. From my limited experience, I ended up having a whole lot of anger. Too much for one person. Your bf needs a team, really.

You definitely could use your knowledge to learn more about yourself, what brought you into this situation to begin with. And to apply it to your own personal development. You say you are in therapy. I'd definitely bring these questions to your therapist.

I don't know much for your situation, but I sure know that it's by working on yourself that you can best help your partner. If there are changes possible. Do you have support people besides your T around you?



 

[WileyCoyote]

Hey lostandconfused

You definitely could use your knowledge to learn more about yourself, what brought you into this situation to begin with. And to apply it to your own personal development.
 

THIS /\/\/\/\   

How do I know this?  I also have a BS in Psych and I am beginning the further work to become a therapist.

Remember, you can't fix him.  He has to do the introspective work himself.  Use your knowledge and look at your part.  That is all you can work on.   Also, use that knowledge to try and be more compassionate toward him.  Come from a place of understanding.  This will help you REACT less and RESPOND more often.

Bonus : That compassionate place will help you set boundaries that come from a good place, not punishment.  He will notice.  It will take time though.


You can't be both the caretaker and the girlfriend at once.  You can work to compartmentalize those two positions and KNOW when you are being one or the other.  You have to decide how much of a caretaker you want to be.  And why would you want to do that is a question you should ask yourself.

Consider reading this:
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama-ebook/dp/B00B60DRKI

I believe it will be very helpful for you.

[lostandconfused6]

Pearl my therapist has told me if he can recognize and pin point exactly what he is doing during or after he does it then he could be using it as a crutch/excuse and he should be more than able to control or start to take steps to stop it or fix it (depending on exactly what it is) he said something bothersome to him is when he tells me in the middle of a dysregulation or rage things like "i have BPD so i devalued you, i painted you black, get over it i'll do it every day, i'm splitting right now, leave me alone or i'll rage on you even more, sorry blame it on my BPD i'll get over it in a little bit" he said if he is cognizant enough in the moment to say those things and to pin point what he is doing than he is capable of controlling it.  Do you think that is true? I know not every therapist is 100% right all the time which is why i ask for others experiences and thoughts

Brave, for me another struggle i come across is that i am a go getter, problem solver, and a doer i don't have time in my life to sit back and talk about what i want to do or what i might want to change or just complain over and over about the same problem... .i sit back think about it figure out a solution or a dif way to do or think about something and take action then put it behind me and move on to the next thing... .it kills me when he tells me he knows exactly what to do and what to change then 2 days later it's like it was never said, in my head i'm like YESSS he is making baby steps i'm so proud then 2 days later it's all gone and nothing happens or it gets worse... .not just in our relationship but every part of his life... .i am not saying change is easy or it isn't scary or painful but sometimes it is necessary i am very sympathetic to his fears and i cater to him a lot despite how ridiculous or wrong i perceive things to be that he thinks or does (and despite how direct i am with him sometimes) i have a couple friends that support me but at times even they think it is best for me to walk away especially now that he is blaming BPD for everything but not making any noticeable changes it's like now he has found a scape goat? Very short small back story A lot of my frustration and distrust for him come from something he did in our relationship involving another girl and i am trying to forget it but things pop up that make me think it is still going on... .in my head i think, you know you have so many other issues why bring another 1 into this or does he play up the other issues to deflect from what could still possibly be going on with that girl? Sometimes i wish i had no education on this kind of stuff and that i knew nothing but the tools that a loved one should use I wish he would go to therapy so he could at least attempt to see my point of view and hear things from someone that isn't personally involved in the situation. i have spoken to my therapist about my concerns with the other girl and his family, the way he speaks to me and the way he lies or "leaves things out" and a few other things and his answer is typically boundaries  I expressed to my therapist the other day i am angry, he asked why, i was completely honest and said because i bend over backwards for him, show him every day i love him, do anything i can to make him happy, give up so much of what i need and want to make sure he is ok, sacrifice my time life and energy just to be there for him, i rarely tell him no, and i try to understand him and he has ruined us with what he did with that girl. my therapist was happy i finally said it that i am angry about it i go back next week and we are going to go more into that... .i am hoping he can help me with this i want me and BPDbf to work but it can't be one sided

Wiley i think some of what i said to brave addresses some of the things you said... .i just get exhausted with hearing the same excuses over and over or him knowing what he needs to do then doing nothing or taking it back and i know some of what i said to him was harsh (i was actually  a little nicer about it when i said it i shortened it when i typed)  and i need to check this more but when he flat out asks my honest opinion i guess i think wow here is a chance maybe he will listen and it might get through because he is so calm and in a good place... .

Tell me if this sounds completely off but how in the world could he possibly know what will and won't work if he doesn't even know who he is? He can't control his own emotions and has no logic or reasoning capabilities so how could he ever be able to say he's right about anything? I don't know how to word this but it's like he doesn't have the mental capability to do any of those things... .  No, i would not say that to him i'm just wondering for myself... .is that the reason he is so angry all the time? I can't imagine how frustrating that would be

 

[WileyCoyote]

" i am a go getter, problem solver, and a doer i don't have time in my life to sit back and talk about what i want to do or what i might want to change or just complain over and over about the same problem."

How can you apply this to your relationship?    

Also, there is a tendancy for therapists to not want to diagnose or tell a patient of the BPD diagnosis.  Why?  because they do exactly what your BF is doing.  They embrace it.  Learn as much about it as they can and sometimes adopt the behaviors on the list of BPD attributes that they didn't even have previously.  It can make the acting out behavior even worse. 

Can I ask how he is diagnosed and not in treatment?

[lostandconfused6]

" i am a go getter, problem solver, and a doer i don't have time in my life to sit back and talk about what i want to do or what i might want to change or just complain over and over about the same problem."

How can you apply this to your relationship?    

Also, there is a tendancy for therapists to not want to diagnose or tell a patient of the BPD diagnosis.  Why?  because they do exactly what your BF is doing.  They embrace it.  Learn as much about it as they can and sometimes adopt the behaviors on the list of BPD attributes that they didn't even have previously.  It can make the acting out behavior even worse. 

Can I ask how he is diagnosed and not in treatment?

Well i had originally thought by suggesting to him what to do or suggesting how to look at things differently would help  and sometimes it does it's a 50/50 shot... .now i'm just at a loss for how i can apply it to the relationship

he was diagnosed and at first didn't accept it and when he did he was to busy for therapy and had other things to worry about until recently it effected his school (he came to that conclusion) and he failed something that has never happened to him before so he started looking more into it... .he said a few times recently he was looking for a therapist, nothing came of it. I feel that he thinks that he can fix this on his own... .he doesn't have a support system beside me, his mom knows about his BPD but has done nothing at all to learn about it and still goes on about her life doing the same things she has always done (it took him a long time to get the courage to tell her about it) she comes across as it not mattering. She fits all the traits of a BPD mother but doesn't have a formal diagnosis nor will she ever get one or even look in it. I feel a huge step for him will be to move out of his parents house and into a better environment whether that's by himself or with me, that's his choice, he is looking for a job to make this happen so we will see.

When we met he was so different, i know there is a honeymoon phase, but he said himself he made an effort not to be that person anymore because of where it has gotten him in the past (mostly in his relationships that were with ungrateful worthless lying cheaters that had some kind of drug problem or eating disorder) ... .do you think it's possible that he really is that person he was in the beginning and him trying so hard not be could make his BPD worse or make it come out in the first place? I think what i mean is could it cause him to have an "identity crisis" he was 1 way for 32 years and  all of a sudden decides he needs to change his way. He has said on numerous occasion that he can't separate the way he is from 1 person to the next so even though i deserve the person he was at first other people don't so he can't be that way... .Does that make sense?

[WileyCoyote]

What do you think about a future where he doesn't go to therapy, doesn't change how YOU want? ... .after complaining over and over about HIS same problem?  

[lostandconfused6]

If he doesn't make steps to change at all for anyone not just me i don't know what i will do... .

[WileyCoyote]

I apologize, I think what I was saying might have sent you down the wrong thought path than I intended.  I didn't mean to be a downer.

I was trying to get you to think about what you said about how you approach problems, and how that might look when applied to your relationship.

"i am a go getter, problem solver, and a doer i don't have time in my life to sit back and talk about what i want to do or what i might want to change or just complain over and over about the same problem"

From my perspective with my limited info, it sounds like you are doing the exact opposite of how you view yourself in life when it comes to your relationship.  You keep trying the same thing over and over with no effect.

What would it look like if you tried some radical acceptance, and accepted that he might not take any of your advice, or work to change?   Not acceptance with sadness/hopelessness and bad feelings.  Just neutral radical acceptance that this is the way it is if I want this person in my life?

How much more time would you have available to work on yourself?

I really encourage you to read the book I linked to previously.

[WileyCoyote]

Also something to consider.

True change on his part can only be done for HIM.  No one else.   With a therapist and a DBT team it can take years.  This is with him putting in the work.

Can you realistically expect that only your well intentioned advice will affect the change you imagine?

My therapist tells me that If I can find my own mental health path it will help my wife.
It has been found that someone with BPD will improve.  Even without there own therapy.  But this is if they are exposed to about 3 years of your consistent healthy behavior.

Even more reason to work on yourself whether your partner does or not.

They need a role model they never had, and possibly reparenting.  Is it better if a trained professional does this?  probably.   But not everyone with BPD will get that professional help.

[lostandconfused6]

1 thing that is a huge factor is his family, he lives with them, no matter what every single day they trigger him in some way so i fear no matter what i do or don't do for myself or him or anything it won't matter because the bad will resurface as soon as he makes any kind of interaction with them.

If he was actively putting in work and getting professional help i would be so excited and hopeful... .even if he took the small steps he says he is going to work towards some sort of improvement for himself i would feel the same way but he does nothing but talk... .and everytime he tells me he's really going to try i give the same positive supportive response... .

Now today he has decided that he is going to kill 2 of my friends because 1 of them "saw him" last week doing something that involved that other girl he dropped it last week now today things were good and brings it up out of the blue and has gone on and on about it for hours... .  i don't know how to respond to this... .normally to a friend i would say well don't do things you don't want to be caught doing or don't do anything you shouldn;t be doing and it doesn't matter who sees what... .of course i know that's not right. I am just mentally exhausted and scared to say or do the wrong thing i don't want to validate what he is saying and i don't want to JADE i am just mentally exhausted lately

[braveSun]

My therapist tells me that If I can find my own mental health path it will help my wife.

Mines too. I've had different therapists when I was with my exwBPD,  and they all said this too.

Think of it like if you encounter a frighten animal. Only by yourself having a strong peace inside and knowing well what to do with your own fear mechanisms can you influence the animal to calm down. In the case of a human being, many moments of this can help them learn that there is something more than what they were used to.

In the end lostandconfused, your feelings and your life count very much,  and they are probably competing with your instinct to help him with his issues. I am sorry that you are experiencing so much anxiety and difficulties with this relationship.     

Focusing on your own life makes for the very best response for your own future. 

I like to hear that your T is interested in looking into your boundaries. This sounds like a very good start. I had to work on that myself too.

Any thought of what this might look like for you?

 

[WileyCoyote]

Oh My.   

   Do you think that death threats toward people you know might be a boundary that needs enforcing?  You seem a little to calm about that in that your advice is essentially "don't do something that you don't want to be caught at" then you won't have to threaten to kill people? 

My therapist says use as little pronouns as possible.  It makes it easier for them to digest.  Keep it simple

":)eath threats are never ok"  The end. 

There is nothing to really even respond to there beyond that.  I don't even know how you would JADE it anyway.

and Yes,  Living with the FoO will most likely hamper his efforts to improve. 

[lostandconfused6]

My thought process behind that was if you weren't doing anything to get caught then the death threats wouldn't be there... .he does it so often with everything that makes him mad i have kind of become numb to it... .i ended up telling him it isn't ok to threaten to kill people... .he ended up apologizing for being mean to me and saying that but a lot is bothering that doesn't have to do with me

i said i accept and appreciate your apology i am here when and if you want to talk

[lostandconfused6]

Brave i am going to do some more reading and sit down this weekend and gather my thoughts and figure out what boundaries i need to really try to enforce and will help me the most