is provoking an angry response a way towards greater insight

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

It struck me recently when I started to think about all the times I didnt intentionally provoke anger in her, but when I did say something that would unwittingly cause her to enter a rage, it led to her revealing a lot of useful insight in the midst of the projection and insults.

Looking back I was always walking on eggshells not to create this response, however, it seems that perhaps I should have.

It was the only time, in the midst of anger, that she would appear to reveal, unguarded, the thoughts she had about me or even slip valuable clues as to things she had done without me being previously aware of.

Much like a skilled prosecutor may want to provoke anger in a witness or defendant, to elicit the truth via an increase in stress.

I just wonder wether anyone else found that despite the hurtful conduct, they actually gained valuable knowledge or insight during those moments of anger, regardless of how hurtful those projections or revelations resulted.

Some might argue it is not ethical to do, Id play devils advocate a bit and suggest that if I had done more of this at the start of the r/s, and had the chance to get more information, it would have led me to consider options such as detaching more sooner, avoiding future hurt on both parts. There is much suggestion of trying to defuse and calm and walk on eggshells, yet I found a lot of this led to playing a game of charades on both sides, she never got made to feel angry enough and I was the one carrying all the stress.

Should it really be that one sided? Are we avoiding a valuable opportunity to get greater insight and carry some valuable insight and the positive sides of provoking an argument?

Its something ive been thinking of a lot, and wondering if I should have done, and if I should consider doing now that im back in contact.

[Cromwell]

It struck me recently when I started to think about all the times I didnt intentionally provoke anger in her, but when I did say something that would unwittingly cause her to enter a rage, it led to her revealing a lot of useful insight in the midst of the projection and insults.

Looking back I was always walking on eggshells not to create this response, however, it seems that perhaps I should have.

It was the only time, in the midst of anger, that she would appear to reveal, unguarded, the thoughts she had about me or even slip valuable clues as to things she had done without me being previously aware of.

Much like a skilled prosecutor may want to provoke anger in a witness or defendant, to elicit the truth via an increase in stress.

I just wonder wether anyone else found that despite the hurtful conduct, they actually gained valuable knowledge or insight during those moments of anger, regardless of how hurtful those projections or revelations resulted.

Some might argue it is not ethical to do, Id play devils advocate a bit and suggest that if I had done more of this at the start of the r/s, and had the chance to get more information, it would have led me to consider options such as detaching more sooner, avoiding future hurt on both parts. There is much suggestion of trying to defuse and calm and walk on eggshells, yet I found a lot of this led to playing a game of charades on both sides, she never got made to feel angry enough and I was the one carrying all the stress.

Should it really be that one sided? Are we avoiding a valuable opportunity to get greater insight and carry some valuable insight and the positive sides of provoking an argument?

Its something ive been thinking of a lot, and wondering if I should have done, and if I should consider doing now that im back in contact.

[AskingWhy]

Evoking rage might not always get the right answer nor the truth.

BPDs rage about almost anything, and the trigger may be totally unrelated to anything you may have done or said.  Their rage is a projection of their inner, often empty and fearful, feelings.

[pearlsw]

Hi Cromwell,

While I agree it is hard to be walking on eggshells, I can't see where it would ever be a good idea to intentionally provoke someone to anger.

Do you want to share an example of this to further make your case? What insights did you gain? How did they help you?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Cromwell]

I think askingwhy probably solved this one straight away for me. She came out with a lot of things that she never otherwise did, in rage mode, but I have the feeling they were mostly just "anything" she could come up with that would have the goal of causing hurt.

She alluded to the idea that she had cheated on me, yet something doesnt fit right about it, she knew that the idea of it hurt me a lot, I feel that theres a good chance she just capitalised on that idea and used it for all it was worth when she was in paint-you-black time of the day.

As for the projections and insults, too explicit for this board. She rarely raged against me as the subject, it was against others, even her past rs of years back, but she did it with such contempt and also stuff that didnt make sense, that I felt it told me more about her than it did what she was trying to say about them.

I think it was semi-useful to listen attentively during the rage modes, but I agree its not something worth provoking for that reason. She would have said anything to cause hurt regardless of how fictional, it wouldnt be easy at all to seperate fact from fiction in the midst of it.

[once removed]

Much like a skilled prosecutor

lawyers go to law school. they spend a lot of time learning and honing those skills. youve resisted learning or honing your relationship skills.

this theory is the equivalent of saying "they say the truth comes out when youre drunk. perhaps if i want to learn to be be honest, i should drink more."

you want a social experiment? learn the tools. practice them. see if they work. report your findings.

As for the projections and insults, too explicit for this board.

this again? Cromwell, the lack of any detail at a certain point not only makes it impossible to support you, it begs credibility.

[Cromwell]

lawyers go to law school. they spend a lot of time learning and honing those skills. youve resisted learning or honing your relationship skills.

this theory is the equivalent of saying "they say the truth comes out when youre drunk. perhaps if i want to learn to be be honest, i should drink more."

you want a social experiment? learn the tools. practice them. see if they work. report your findings.

this again? Cromwell, the lack of any detail at a certain point not only makes it impossible to support you, it begs credibility.

once removed, Ive resisted learning or honing my relationship skills in a BPD relationship.

It doesnt beg credibility, I got what I accept as a comprehensive answer from Askingwhy, there is nothing more to say or repeat the vile, vulgarian and volatile ramblings of my ex which I conclude are just her scraping the barrel in her rage mode to find anything at all, a scatter gun approach, to insult when she feels the impulse to. It makes the most sense to me I just wanted to hear what others thought.

There are lawyers on here who cant handle their BPD partners and I dont need to have learned to that extent to trigger my ex, I could do it in less than 5 minutes with a text, I know how to throw the low curve balls as well, its just that I never did during the r/s im not that type of person, its not what I wanted. I stepped on landmines that set her off, with no bad intent to do so, in the process, learned what causes her to destabalise. She really isnt that much of a mystery to me, much, anymore - and part of why im getting more disinterested. Part of this attraction I learned is there was some mystique about the bizarreness and incomprehensibility of her behaviour but ive learned about BPD, put a lot of pieces of jigsaw together, dont feel the need to 100% complete it, seen enough its getting boring.

and thats a good thing for me.

[Skip]

I just wonder wether anyone else found that despite the hurtful conduct, they actually gained valuable knowledge or insight during those moments of anger, regardless of how hurtful those projections or revelations resulted.

You have implemented a lot of behaviors that manipulate, exploit or violate. You've spend a lot of time here exploring interesting ways of revenge. And you report and appear to enjoy it, and/or be entertained by it.

You've slept with her friends, ghosted her, provoked her and other things you elude to, but don't want to share. You did a lot of these things to bring peace to yourself. But then there is a need and a thirst for more.

If I remember, you slept with her friends, she blurted out that she slept with someone too (which you concluded was just a reaction)... .but the uncertainty that she may have done that has disturbed you deeply and a lot of your dark feelings trace back to that.

Forget about her for a minute - what is going on in your head is something you need to get away from. You are not going to find love in life with this approach.

To answer your question, yes there are a myriad of physiological, military, and law enforcement tools you can use on people. You are already using some. They work, yes. Fyodor Dostoevsky explores these themes in Crime and Punishment.

I don't get the sense that there is a deep love or yearning for this person - it feels more like a curiosity about what you do to her and how she will react - it feels a little like someone pulling the legs off of a bug and watching it try to move.

Why not just walk away and take some time to reset your compass.

I encourage you to watch this video, if only as a favor to me for spending the time to find it and post it for you, caring about you.

It explores the pathway between psychopathic rationality to egalitarian virtue. Psychopathy is rational, as you point out. Why not do it - it works - as you point out.


Date: 4-2017Minutes: 5:43
Crime works, why we don't embrace it | Jordan Peterson

Crom, you are an intelligent deep thinking man. You don't follow the rules or the conventions because you feel you can think above them - pick and choose what makes sense. We all do to an extent, and should, but at some point we are out too far and maybe not as wise as we think.

You've got to work through this. It's not about her, she's just a problem you are trying to resolve.  The issue transcends her and has a lot to do with how you conceive your role in life and in particular, life's unfairness.

[Cromwell]

explo
You have implemented a lot of behaviors that manipulate, exploit or violate. You've spend a lot of time here exploring interesting ways of revenge. And you report and appear to enjoy it, and/or be entertained by it.

You've slept with her friends, ghosted her, provoked her and other things you elude to, but don't want to share. You did a lot of these things to bring peace to yourself. But then there is a need and a thirst for more.

If I remember, you slept with her friends, she blurted out that she slept with someone too (which you concluded was just a reaction)... .but the uncertainty that she may have done that has disturbed you deeply and a lot of your dark feelings trace back to that.

Forget about her for a minute - what is going on in your head is something you need to get away from. You are not going to find love in life with this approach.

To answer your question, yes there are a myriad of physiological, military, and law enforcement tools you can use on people. You are already using some. They work, yes. Fyodor Dostoevsky explores these themes in Crime and Punishment.

I don't get the sense that there is a deep love or yearning for this person - it feels more like a curiosity about what you do to her and how she will react - it feels a little like someone pulling the legs off of a bug and watching it try to move.

Why not just walk away and take some time to reset your compass.

I encourage you to watch this video, if only as a favor to me for spending the time to find it and post it for you, caring about you.

It explores the pathway between psychopathic rationality to egalitarian virtue. Psychopathy is rational, as you point out. Why not do it - it works - as you point out.

<iframe width="320" height="200" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wwi9Q9apHGI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Date: 4-2017Minutes: 5:43
Crime works, why we don't embrace it | Jordan Peterson

Crom, you are an intelligent deep thinking man. You don't follow the rules or the conventions because you feel you can think above them - pick and choose what makes sense. We all do to an extent, and should, but at some point we are out too far and maybe not as wise as we think.

You've got to work through this. It's not about her, she's just a problem you are trying to resolve.  The issue transcends her and has a lot to do with how you conceive your role in life and in particular, life's unfairness.

Skip

I watched the video, thank you again.

Ive stopped the experiment and I got another friendly text from her late last night, she said I cheered her up again and she is busy with work this weekend. I replied back with some humour and wished her well. It reminds me of the pre-r/s era, a time where I never had the pressures. Maybe this could be workable in some way, my goal is to keep her in the distance but I wont react to the stuff I also did (pre-r/s) I was shocked when the suicidal ideation came, and despite not being emotionally invested in her, I didnt sleep that night out of worry. Yet during the transition period of her being discarded by her former partner and starting with me, she was texting him some very graphic lies that she was IV using heroin, it prompt him to reply back to her in shock and worry, to which she laughed to me and said "hes just so gullible".

So when it comes to having to deal with a manipulator like that, you do have to use the tools that work, it means being manipulative to an extent yourself, its the only way to find out what is really going on.

what does speak to me is, that I went into a r/s with someone who showed these red flags. I listened and believed all her tales that her ex partners had been wrong in every way, and thought that they were the bad ones and she was only reacting out. It did push a rescuer button in me and I felt very protective over her thinking she was vulnerable as she made out to be. In other words, I was also gullible and manipulated, chivalry is noble but in this circumstance it was for the wrong person.

There has never been, and never will, be love for her from me. It isnt possible after this and im fine with that. I feel a lot of recovery and a lot less hypervigilance about her recently, it has been helpful to get other people's input and perspectives.

Ive never looked backwards in life, some people return to old jobs, old relationships. I dont suffer fools gladly person at my root, yet I wanted to love her and I broke away from convention, put my trust in her more than I had done before, and I felt betrayed by it. There is every justification to not look back at her, and I did try with the NC to ignore her very existence, yet ive accepted her back - to a limited extent - into my life. I hope you see that as having learned some compassion and not to weave a web for her to walk into so I can get more revenge, I dont know where this will go but I have read one of your most recent suggestions and it sounds a wise idea that I initially didnt consider. I will like to meet her again, perhaps both sides can get a bit of closure from what had happened during the r/s, then its back to the occassional text here and there and hopefully I can get on with the rest of my life and find the fulfillment I want from someone more able and compatible then I tried with her.

[flourdust]

A couple of smart points here... .

There has never been, and never will, be love for her from me. It isnt possible after this and im fine with that. I feel a lot of recovery and a lot less hypervigilance about her recently... .

Becoming more non-reactive is part of healthy detachment. These emotional injuries should fade with time -- never disappearing, but becoming less acute, like an old scar. It's a good sign if you're starting to notice that she bothers you ... .and you think about her ... .less and less.

what does speak to me is, that I went into a r/s with someone who showed these red flags... .It did push a rescuer button in me

This is a positive step toward healing. I think the hardest transition in detachment is moving from pure blame and rage (directed toward your ex) to some acknowledgement of your own deficiencies. Our ex-partners may have treated us horribly in many ways ... .but we are the ones who chose to stay and take it for too long. Why did we do that? How do we prevent ourselves from doing it again?

These are the questions to think about to ensure that your next relationship isn't yet another tragic chapter in the same horrible book.