Two months since we "talked"

[Our abuse recovery guide]

It's been two months since I visited my parents, or talked to uBPD Mom. Mom's rage incident during that visit led me to research and conclude BPD traits were at the root of her perception, thinking, and behavior patterns, and driving the dynamics in my FOO. I've owed y'all an update.

Since that visit & rage incident, I've been left questioning a lot about actual reality versus Mom's reality. All of the times she had been "hurt" by family, friends, and coworkers. Friends she's lost because they think they are better than her, or jobs she has quit because people were "mean" to her. All the ways that her "reality" has shaped my own view of myself and the world. I began meeting with a therapist. My brother, SIL, and husband are all on the same page regarding Mom having uBPD. Brother and I are both sad that our mom perpetually sees herself as a victim, even/especially in relationship to her children.

I talked to my nonBPD dad a week or two after the incident. He had been sitting just a few feet away while Mom was raging, watching TV with his back to us. I know that he is very conflict avoidant, which has enabled my mom to continue this behavior toward her children, but which allows him to stay married to her. I really didn't want to pull him into the Karpman triangle, but I did want to understand his perception of events. The conversation went something like this:

"I was very scared by her behavior, Dad."
"Well, you didn't help."
"What do you mean?"
"Well, you did do some of those things she said. You didn't call her back after she called you [20 times in a row while my phone was off]."
":)ad, that happened over ten years ago. And it was regarding an unreturned phone call. That level of anger over an unreturned phone call so long ago--something I have apologized for--is not fair, or normal."
"Well."
":)ad, I am going to send her a letter and request that she start seeing a therapist or counselor. I just ask that if she is willing to do that, that you not try to dissuade her from it."
"No, I wouldn't do that."

I stated that I was not saying that Mom was mentally ill, but reiterated that some of her behaviors are "not normal", and that I need some space from her. I told him that I want to have a relationship with him (Mom has been controlling of my relationship with him and other relatives). I allowed myself to cry a little bit while talking with him, which was genuine, but felt strange. I never allow myself to cry in front of my parents; what's the point, when there isn't room for anyone but Mom to have emotions? And because her emotions are used a tool for control, it makes genuine emotions suspect. 

I sent a letter to Mom about a month ago. I stated that I loved her, that it made me sad to see her hurting so deeply. I brought up a couple things that she had said while raging: first, that it seemed that her anger when she was yelling at me was much deeper than a reaction to anything I had said or done that night; did that sound like it could be true? While raging, there was a specific life event of hers that she has usually portrayed as positive, but in the context of raging she wanted me to agree that it was stupid/reckless behavior. So in the letter, I said that it seemed like she wanted me to confirm bad things she thought about herself, but in fact that I always really enjoyed that story about her, and think it was very brave and wonderful that she did this thing. I closed by stating that I was in therapy, and think that she may find therapy helpful as well, so that maybe we could both break out of some bad habits and find healthier ways of being together. That I loved her, and would like for us to have a healthy relationship with one another.

I kept a copy so that Mom can't claim I said something I did not. I let my brother know it had been sent, so he would be prepared if/when the other shoe drops (he and SIL live close to our parents and have to see them more regularly). I read it to SIL, who said, "It's a beautiful letter; I'm sure she'll find something wrong with it." About a week after I sent the letter, I sent a card for Mother's Day. Mom sent a text thanking me for the card. She did not acknowledge the letter, which isn't surprising but did make me wonder if it had reached her.

Dad called me yesterday just to say hi. I asked him if Mom got the letter, he confirmed she had, and I left it at that. We had a nice conversation about each of our hobbies until I needed to go. Mom was outside for the duration of the call, and I'm not sure if she knew he was talking to me or not.

I don't know if Mom is seeking therapy. I'm not sure that a letter confronting her behavior would be helpful at this point; perhaps it could be if I knew that she had a therapist she could talk it over with. I don't necessarily want a NC relationship with Mom, but I'm also not interested in a relationship on her terms. So I guess I just keep working on myself--and there's plenty to do there!--and see where things go from here.

[sklamath]

It's been two months since I visited my parents, or talked to uBPD Mom. Mom's rage incident during that visit led me to research and conclude BPD traits were at the root of her perception, thinking, and behavior patterns, and driving the dynamics in my FOO. I've owed y'all an update.

Since that visit & rage incident, I've been left questioning a lot about actual reality versus Mom's reality. All of the times she had been "hurt" by family, friends, and coworkers. Friends she's lost because they think they are better than her, or jobs she has quit because people were "mean" to her. All the ways that her "reality" has shaped my own view of myself and the world. I began meeting with a therapist. My brother, SIL, and husband are all on the same page regarding Mom having uBPD. Brother and I are both sad that our mom perpetually sees herself as a victim, even/especially in relationship to her children.

I talked to my nonBPD dad a week or two after the incident. He had been sitting just a few feet away while Mom was raging, watching TV with his back to us. I know that he is very conflict avoidant, which has enabled my mom to continue this behavior toward her children, but which allows him to stay married to her. I really didn't want to pull him into the Karpman triangle, but I did want to understand his perception of events. The conversation went something like this:

"I was very scared by her behavior, Dad."
"Well, you didn't help."
"What do you mean?"
"Well, you did do some of those things she said. You didn't call her back after she called you [20 times in a row while my phone was off]."
":)ad, that happened over ten years ago. And it was regarding an unreturned phone call. That level of anger over an unreturned phone call so long ago--something I have apologized for--is not fair, or normal."
"Well."
":)ad, I am going to send her a letter and request that she start seeing a therapist or counselor. I just ask that if she is willing to do that, that you not try to dissuade her from it."
"No, I wouldn't do that."

I stated that I was not saying that Mom was mentally ill, but reiterated that some of her behaviors are "not normal", and that I need some space from her. I told him that I want to have a relationship with him (Mom has been controlling of my relationship with him and other relatives). I allowed myself to cry a little bit while talking with him, which was genuine, but felt strange. I never allow myself to cry in front of my parents; what's the point, when there isn't room for anyone but Mom to have emotions? And because her emotions are used a tool for control, it makes genuine emotions suspect. 

I sent a letter to Mom about a month ago. I stated that I loved her, that it made me sad to see her hurting so deeply. I brought up a couple things that she had said while raging: first, that it seemed that her anger when she was yelling at me was much deeper than a reaction to anything I had said or done that night; did that sound like it could be true? While raging, there was a specific life event of hers that she has usually portrayed as positive, but in the context of raging she wanted me to agree that it was stupid/reckless behavior. So in the letter, I said that it seemed like she wanted me to confirm bad things she thought about herself, but in fact that I always really enjoyed that story about her, and think it was very brave and wonderful that she did this thing. I closed by stating that I was in therapy, and think that she may find therapy helpful as well, so that maybe we could both break out of some bad habits and find healthier ways of being together. That I loved her, and would like for us to have a healthy relationship with one another.

I kept a copy so that Mom can't claim I said something I did not. I let my brother know it had been sent, so he would be prepared if/when the other shoe drops (he and SIL live close to our parents and have to see them more regularly). I read it to SIL, who said, "It's a beautiful letter; I'm sure she'll find something wrong with it." About a week after I sent the letter, I sent a card for Mother's Day. Mom sent a text thanking me for the card. She did not acknowledge the letter, which isn't surprising but did make me wonder if it had reached her.

Dad called me yesterday just to say hi. I asked him if Mom got the letter, he confirmed she had, and I left it at that. We had a nice conversation about each of our hobbies until I needed to go. Mom was outside for the duration of the call, and I'm not sure if she knew he was talking to me or not.

I don't know if Mom is seeking therapy. I'm not sure that a letter confronting her behavior would be helpful at this point; perhaps it could be if I knew that she had a therapist she could talk it over with. I don't necessarily want a NC relationship with Mom, but I'm also not interested in a relationship on her terms. So I guess I just keep working on myself--and there's plenty to do there!--and see where things go from here.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi sklamath,

Thank you for the update. It sounds as if things are moving along in their own way. You've gotten into T, talked with your D, and while still basically NC, you're working on yourself  and seeing that as important. Good for you!   

Some of that conversation with your D was pretty interesting. He is on the drama triangle if you ask me. I think you handled it well.

Are you working on anything in particular in T that you'd care to share?  Any new enlightenment there?

 
Wools

[sklamath]

Thanks, Wools. I do think D is in a tough spot of wanting to keep his marriage intact while knowing on some level how M is jeopardizing both his and her relationships with their adult children. That he would call me just to say hello, though, indicates that he took something to heart about our last conversation.

Are you working on anything in particular in T that you'd care to share?  Any new enlightenment there?

Honestly, I am not impressed with my current T and am searching for another. I have had very positive therapy and coaching experiences in the past, and this one is not up to par. I don’t find our sessions are very focused, despite my having indicated some very specific goals (boundary setting/defending, role-playing around how to conduct myself when M rages or pouts, and digging into some of my negative beliefs about myself). Starting late after I arrive on time, dwelling too long on chitchat, T checking the stove and not having billing in order, not watching the time and charging me extra because, lo and behold, the session ran over. I am going to the next appointment with the intention of having the break-up conversation in person, as it’s a good opportunity for me to face down my conflict avoidance.

[Harri]

Hi sklamath.  I am glad that you father reached out to you after you sent your letter.  It's been a couple of days since you talked to your Dad.  Do you still feel okay with the way things went?

Starting late after I arrive on time, dwelling too long on chitchat, T checking the stove and not having billing in order, not watching the time and charging me extra because, lo and behold, the session ran over. I am going to the next appointment with the intention of having the break-up conversation in person, as it’s a good opportunity for me to face down my conflict avoidance.

Good for you for deciding to get a new T and to end it in person.  You are right, it will be an excellent way to confront your own conflict avoidance.  Good luck with that and do keep us posted.  You can always practice what you want to say here as well.

Take care

[Notwendy]

sklamath- I think you did better than I did when talking to my father and sharing my concerns about my BPD mother, but from my own experience, I will caution you to tread lightly in that area.

I can imagine the outcome of a letter to my mother- she would dissasociate, rage, and basically make my father's life miserable until he sided with her "against " me. As much as you want to stay off the drama triangle, your parents are likely on it. It is a part of their connection. She takes victim, he is the rescuer. They have likely done this with more people than you. It bonds them- sets their attention on a common "persecutor" and off their own issues. It also quiets BPD mom to be "sided" with.

My parents' relationship depends on maintaining that my mother is normal. Any suggestion otherwise is doing to disturb their balance together. I have at times, felt my father could speak sensibly about the situation, and he did, but for him, to keep the peace, he could not do anything about it. Early on in their relationship, he resisted her demands. They had huge arguments- yelling, raging, and when mom was mad, she would trash the house. It scared the daylights out of us kids.  It was crazy to anyone who saw it, but later, when all was quiet, my parents would act as if nothing happened. For my father to co-exist in the relationship he chose- and he chose not to dissolve it- he felt he had to simply accept it and not rock the boat. Eventually he settled into this pattern of acquiescence to her to keep the peace.

My comments, my intent to help the situation, was basically an intrusion. I naively spoke to my father as if I had something to offer my parents. Growing up, I really wanted to know what my mother's problem was- I wanted to help, and wanted to fix this. Yet, my father was an intelligent man with a good education. He had access to the internet as much as I did and also knew how to consult mental health providers. Later on, I realized, he probably knew, but the only way to cope with it was not to acknowledge it.

I did get to the point where I had to have boundaries with her. I was not willing to go along with her demands and I did not want to subject my own children to her behavior. I explained this to my father, expecting him, as a sensible man, to understand and want the best for me and my children. But not complying brought the issue into the light. I was supposed to comply- my compliance- and giving her access to the grandchildren- made her look OK- after all, her friends were spending time with their grandchildren. For her to not do the same ( she did spend time with them but I supervised visits- I would not leave them alone with her after what I witnessed growing up) would go against that image. I also intervened in matters of my father's health. He got seriously ill and health care providers assumed my mother was a typical caregiver.

Bringing the issue of my mother's mental illness out upset the dynamics in the family. I became, in her eyes, the persecutor. I didn't imagine my father would discard his relationship with me, but at her demand, he did. To her, it was her or me, and he chose her.

Simply put- their relationship was stronger than their relationship with anyone else and anyone who threatened their situation was likely to be cast out.

I support you in knowing the truth and not denying it- to yourself. I also support you having whatever boundaries you need to have with your parents. Learning to deal with them is a journey of self growth. However, the changes will be with you- stronger boundaries, building your own world with your family, and relating to them with compassion - but without attempts to change who they are. To you, their relationship looks horrible - but something is working for them or they would not be together. I don't regret that I stood up to my parents for my own boundaries, perhaps the situation would have gone the way it did anyway. However, if I had known better- I would have not tried to "help" fix her or make suggestions to my father.

[madeline7]

Hello!
My situation echoes NotWendy's. When I stood up to my parents, I was the Bad one, even though at times my Dad recognized that my Mom had serious mental; health issues. She was even in a hospital once following a suicide attempt (having called me to say "goodbye" thus drawing me into the hurricane), gave me permission to speak to the Social Worker, then turned on me and Dad raged at me to mind my own business. This was of course, after she was stabilized, hair and make up perfect, and any attempt at finally getting the help she needed was only an invitation to highlight that any problem Mom had was because of something we had done to wrong her. Bottom line, she cannot be saved. Now that my Dad is passed, I have a sense of freedom to put those boundaries up. My siblings are not supportive, and I feel like an outcast in the family. Amazing how 1 bad apple has upset the cart. I am sad that I cannot fix her, resentful that she continues to tell me that I am responsible for taking care of her. So self care is vital and I am continually checking myself to make sure I maintain those healthy boundaries. I support what works for you, keep in mind that "you" is the focal point!

[sklamath]

I am glad that you father reached out to you after you sent your letter.  It's been a couple of days since you talked to your Dad.  Do you still feel okay with the way things went?

I do. I stated my concerns and my needs--my truth--and that's all I can do. I can't expect anything back, and there's always the possibility that it will backfire. But if I don't express what I would like in the relationship, there's no chance of getting it, and he would have the ability to pretend that I never cared.

That said, I am taking to heart the advice from Notwendy and madeline7 to proceed with caution. What Notwendy described fits:

My parents' relationship depends on maintaining that my mother is normal. Any suggestion otherwise is doing to disturb their balance together. I have at times, felt my father could speak sensibly about the situation, and he did, but for him, to keep the peace, he could not do anything about it. Early on in their relationship, he resisted her demands. They had huge arguments- yelling, raging, and when mom was mad, she would trash the house. It scared the daylights out of us kids.  It was crazy to anyone who saw it, but later, when all was quiet, my parents would act as if nothing happened. For my father to co-exist in the relationship he chose- and he chose not to dissolve it- he felt he had to simply accept it and not rock the boat. Eventually he settled into this pattern of acquiescence to her to keep the peace.

I threatened this balance several years ago when I attempted to spend some quality time with Dad, asking him if he'd do some hiking with me. Mom called me up to scream, and when I told her we could talk when she had calmed down, she had Dad call and tell me he was upset, too. I'm sure that if he had accepted my invitation that she probably would have made his life a living hell. Dad would rather be secure in the dysfunctional equilibrium that he knows than risk all the unknowns of rocking the boat. In a lot of ways, this does have the ability to hurt me more than uBPD Mom's shenanigans. I am making my peace with the limits on that relationship, but it's a lot harder to feel rejected by my non-BPD parent.

[Notwendy]

Yes, it is hard feeling rejected by the non-BPD parent. I had long ago detached from most of my BPD mother's antics, but my father? He was, to me, my only parent. When he died, I felt orphaned. I didn't feel emotionally bonded to my mother like I would a parent, but my father was my.Daddy, my hero and it was shocking to see him toss that relationship to the side at the will of my BPD mother.

BPD mom cycles though.She blows up, rages, and once the rage is over, she tends to forget and try to go on as normal. If she was upset with me, she'd enlist my father to get upset with me. I would then comply- not for her, but for him. I didn't understand the dynamics between them or the drama triangle when he got seriously ill. He would present her to others as his loving caregiver, and she relished that role in public but she was not a competent or reliable caregiver.  I got on that drama triangle big time with her over that- not having any clue what the consequences would be. By the time he passed away, I was disowned and not sure if it was her idea or his idea.

It was, to say the least, devastating, to deal with the feeling of rejection along with the grief of his death. Learning more about BPD dynamics and relationships, I was able to put this into perspective. It wasn't about me and it wasn't a rejection. His FOO had mostly kept quiet about their relationship- I knew they didn't like my mother and it was mutual. After he died, his remaining relatives his age spoke a little to me about how he distanced himself from them after he was married.  I realized that the triangle didn't apply to just me- he had also distanced himself from them- his own mother, his own siblings- so why not his adult child too? It also lead me to look at my own co-dependent traits- milder than his thankfully - but my learning about co-dependency I was able to understand how he could give up so much of what was important to him to keep relative peace with her. He'd been doing it all along. When I realized how much work it took to deal with my own traits, I could understand. They didn't know much about BPD in her era and I think he did the best he knew to do- and there wasn't much support for his situation and co-dependent traits either. After decades together- they were in this balance and it was habit for him to comply with her.

I can identify with your situation when you asked your father to go hiking with you. My mother would listen in on our phone calls and read the e mails I sent my father. I could tell my mother resented the parent- child bond I had with my father- but knowing she also resented his bond with his FOO helped put that into perspective. Although their marital love was exclusive to her, any other person he loved must have felt like a threat. If I tried to talk to him in their house- she'd scream and yell so we couldn't have a conversation. This continued with home health workers- she would stand by the door and listen if a social worker visited.

I wished he would have stood up for his relationship with me, but I also realized that if he stood up for himself, it caused friction and over time she would make his life hell if he did. I realized as an outsider- I didn't live with her and I also wasn't in love with her. He was. I had to respect that.

IMHO, I would tell you- enjoy the relationship you have with your father but keep boundaries on yourself, your own life, your family. Enforce your own boundaries if you need to, but their relationship and your mother's issues- need for therapy- that is their domain.