How to Cope with Codependent Rage

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Enabler, I think I was intentionally setting myself up for a defogging. Thanks for that.

My wife has a talent for pooling together mistakes past and present to attack me all while carefully omitting her own and getting me to believe it. She was explaining today how these things never happen to her with them. Like she never let our daughter go down the slide by herself when she was too small. Or passed out drunk while watching them. I'm starting to take this for the BPD spin it is and don't let it get to me too much. 

That said, my mindfulness is definitely in the toilet. It was before and since I discovered my wife's BPD I've been doing every thing I can to be as not mindful as possible (constantly on smartphone, fantasizing, etc). 

I'm sorry your daughter didn't enjoy the party the way she should. Your story called up a memory to my mind. On our last visit to the US (after over 2 years from previous visit), my best friend flew across the country with his wife and stepson to come see me for one day and night, my last chance to see him for at least another two years. My wife got into a huff about his wife putting her feet up on the couch and argued with me about it in Chinese, but still well within earshot of them, which put my friend's wife into a huff for the rest of the trip and mostly spoiled the tone. My one chance to see my friend, my one time to be home, and she couldn't just let this one thing go for me. And it wasn't even my friend doing it, it was his wife! Whereas I'm nothing but polite and warm when her sister comes to visit for Chinese New Years with her degenerate husband who fills our bathroom with cigarette smoke. Sigh. 

~ROE   

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[RolandOfEld]

Update just for the sake of getting it off my heart.

First, for context, let me mention the weather here has become tropical. I don't remember it ever being this hot and humid. Not a good environment for emotions.

The night of the above conflict. I didn't want to go into the bedroom so I slept on the couch. Hot and uncomfortable. Horrible sleep. My sleep has been terrible for years. I was like a zombie the whole day. It was physically unbearable. I felt even worse by the time I got home. Not long after the kids got into a fight. They fight all the time and it can get vicious. We both tried to settle it. S5 cried and begged me to hold him. D2 cried and begged me to hold her at the same time and S5 kept holding my arms so I couldn't pick her up. I had no idea who to comfort. It's a miracle I didn't lose it.

When my wife is dysregulating she says the kids don't respect me and that's why they don't listen to me and only to her. (Of course none of it is her fault). I had tried to explain to her about my sleep problems and how they were influencing my performance as a parent. She started an argument about how I was using my sleep problems to escape responsibility for my own behavior.  I explained my failures were absolutely my responsibility and that's why I made an appointment to see a doctor about my sleep problems. I told her I was sleep deprived and that if we kept on arguing this way I might lose my temper and didn't want to do that. I begged her to let us pick up the conversation tomorrow. She wouldn't stop. I reminded her our marriage counselor had suggested we do this and she had agreed to it then. But she said both people had to agree to stopping the argument. Said I had no right to be tired since I didn't take care of two kids all day. I insisted I would talk about it tomorrow. She disappeared into the bedroom.

I got the kids ready for bed as best I could and finally put D2 to sleep. S5 refused to shower. So I showered myself first. I cried in the shower because it's the only safe space I have to do this. Afterwards S5 refused again. So I gave him a few more minutes to play and did the dishes. He went into bedroom and ran away from me when I tried to take him to the shower. I was exhausted and finally lost it and grabbed him hard and carried him to the shower. He cried and ran back to the bedroom. My wife looked at me and said I looked like a crazy person and said how dare I criticize her parenting when I would do something like this, showing me the marks my fingers had made on his arms (they faded in 30 seconds).

S5 calmed down and took a shower. I got him into bed (he sleeps with us) and he said he wanted to watch a video before sleep. I agreed to a 3 minute video. My wife came in and gave him a big piece of rock candy. When I asked why she was doing that, she said "Oh so its ok for you to let him watch videos before bed?" She then proceeded to chat with him for five minutes, then ten minutes, then fifteen. I think she might have been doing it on purpose to keep me from getting to sleep. By the time I'd started moving into deep sleep D2 woke up crying for milk around 12:30 pm. I'm the one who takes care of her at night since my wife is a light sleeper and has trouble getting back to sleep. Problem is I don't sleep like I used to.

Even if my wife moves forward with treatment, sometimes I really don't know how much longer I can take life as it is... .

Thanks for listening, everyone.

~ROE

[Turkish]

That sounds stressful beyond belief, and I always bristled at implications that I was going to hurt the kids (in my case by not following her ridiculous superstitious cultural quirks, and every time the kids cried,  "WHAT DID YOU DO?" 

I used to get up to take care of D1 because her mom needed more sleep than me.  And I he to resent getting up at 6am on weekends to entertain and feed the kids,  do laundry. Com breakfast. I sincerely hope that you get help with the sleep issues.  Right now it sounds like you are unable to take care of yourself. 

Can you let some things go? Like letting your son go without a shower for a day, even in your climate?

[Enabler]

ROE, it feels to me that you are attempting to control a tornado.

Children find the cracks in any relationship and work them. It's not so much intentional, more instinctive that they find what works and they follow the path of least resistance. Subconsciously my guess is that he's starting to realise that when mummy and daddy are in the house together they can be played off against one another. You're a bit hamstrung and your wife is ready to cut you off at the knees if you even think about using physical coercion to force your kids to do what they need to do. I have experienced this myself especially over the last 2 years during the demise of my marital relationship. I have found that the priority is to avoid playing the game, stop feeding his desire to create the drama and instead defer to your wife for guidance if passive (sitting down non-threatening stance) does not work. Getting your wife's advice does a couple of things, it show humility, but more importantly it pulls her into buying into a solution. She is far less likely to cut you off at the knees if she is forced to have personal investment into the conflict resolution... .appeal to her to rescue you, you be the victim... .this will confuse her.

Google trauma reinactment as well. There's some useful information especially if your W has any history of abuse at the hands of her parents.  

[Radcliff]

Roland, I agree with Enabler that you're being much to hard on yourself with some of this.  My kids have had falls right in front of me, and I've pulled at least one child back up to the surface when she went under while swimming.

You say that D5 and D2 have vicious fights.  I believe you need to get a handle on that.  It's a big age difference.  :)2 is naturally triggering to S5's vulnerabilities.  I don't know your kids at all, but am just saying this knowing the maturity of a 2 year old and 5 year old.  In a sense, they both need to be protected from each other.  Situations where they coexist peacefully may be the exception rather than the rule, especially at first.  It is unreasonable to expect D2 to not trigger S5, and it is unreasonable to expect S5 to not be triggered.  You want to help them grow towards this, but need to organize the environment to help for now.

Get your wife to help, if possible, but let's assume you're doing it alone.  It's a tough task.  :)2 is too young to be on her own for long.  If they are close, you need to be there with a very engaging activity.  Basically singing or dancing, you reading to them, etc.  You can only do so much of that.  Reading to them is a nice one since you can actually do it for a longer time without exhausting yourself.  Try reading to them every night.  Work with S5 to develop things he can do on his own while you work with D2.  Are their bedtimes staggered?  You can make the time between D2's bedtime and S5's bedtime his special time.  Remember that much misbehavior is begging for attention.  Another very powerful thing is a regular evening routine, with consistent times for each activity.  :)on't be rigid or get frustrated.  Reward success.  Move towards a regular routine over time, patiently moving back towards center when it is disrupted.

On the shower, what happened to you has happened to me many times.  When I get in a mindset that something must happen, and I don't have options, I can get frustrated and lose my cool.  What's the consequence of him not bathing for a night?  If he hasn't acted out too much, and you're catching trouble early, pretend you are in control.  :)eclare that it is "International Stinky Boy Night" and he must not shower today.  Sell it, so he thinks it's your idea that he not shower, and then move on to something like reading to him.  When he does take a shower next, praise him.  If he's acting out a lot, you're better off just giving him no attention for it, no negative attention, just flat affect and move on to the next activity.  Try to wait long enough that it doesn't seem like a reward, and give him some attention -- especially if you can catch him doing something good, even a manufactured success, like being calm for, say, 10 seconds    I'll refer you back to Glasser's Transforming the Difficult Child.

WW

[Enabler]

When I get in a mindset that something must happen, and I don't have options, I can get frustrated and lose my cool.

Excellent point and well highlighted.

If you had to describe what you refer to as anger more precisely, would you use the word frustrated? Frustration comes from the feeling of helplessness and helplessness is the sense of having no options... .at times of frustration, focus energy on thinking of other options and avoid tunnel vision.

[RolandOfEld]

WW, Enabler, Turkish, thank you for the incredible parenting advice from three amazing parents. Sorry for my slow reply but I have been homebound the last few days so my wife can go for job interviews.

It's been an eventful last few days. My wife saw the psychiatrist for her followup appointment Friday. She didn't tell me much but said she told the doctor "I yelled at my husband because the kids cut the wires while he was watching them and I can't even get 5 minutes to myself" and that the doctor agreed I was out of line on that. Sigh. She also said the doctor told her our views on parenting were far out of line with each other. But more importantly my wife told me a social worker would be in touch with us within ten days to arrange an interview. I'm guessing social workers are not arranged for general marriage problems? I have no idea where this one is going.

I had a Facetime call with my brother and Dad this weekend. At first my wife was positive about the fact that my brother wanted to get back in touch with me (we have been secretly back in touch for almost two months after I told them what was happening). She didn't want to join the call but wanted me to tell my brother and sister in law she says hi but she was out with friends. She told me she doesn't want them to think she is avoiding them. Which means she is not angry at them any more. After the call she wanted a full report (as she does after all family calls), and she got triggered, as she does after any call with brother or father. I see now they are probably her easiest trigger. Rudeness and sarcasm and interrogation.

Fast forward to Sunday morning on which she had a job-related appointment. More interrogation. After leaving she popped her head back in to say "Oh by the way, cut down on the sugar because you're getting fat." (I had previously put on a tiny amount of weight and was upset about it but it has already come off.)

After that I instantly went into deep depression. I'm beginning to think depression for me is spiritual exhaustion or anger / frustration with no where to go. But the worst part was I had an insanely difficult task in front me. Taking care of the kids while depressed is torture enough. With my wife out, it was up to me to go by myself that morning to the public kindergarten we want to send our kids to this year to register in the lottery for a spot. If we don't get a spot they have to go to private kindergarten which is worse quality but ten times more expensive. It's a long walk there are it's currently around 40 C here, insanely hot both temperate and humidity wise and full sun. I had to carry daughter in the baby carrier and push my son in the stroller with the shade. I thought I was going to collapse. If I had known how hot it would be I would have taken a taxi. My wife also proceeded to turn a morning business into a full day vacation. Too much!

She got home around 4:30 with silent treatment for me and expensive gifts for the kids. Boy did they love mama. I took the kids out to buy everyone takeout for dinner. I still got her some. I will not be like her and use withholding basic necessities as a revenge tactic. I will not let me kids see me do something like that.

 Later as I still took care of everything that night, after I finally managed to brush D2's teeth, an almost impossible task, she walks over and hands her a piece of candy, then walks off while whistling cheerfully. All I could do was say to her, "WHY?" Then go to the bathroom and try to calm myself down. I can't tolerate her using our kids as a weapon against me. I didn't know what to do. I considered going out to Starbucks and giving myself a little time, but I realized I would be trapping her with the kids, which was like doing the same thing as her.  

This morning getting ready for work I found my hair gel was missing and I was knocked out of our shared Netflix account. Will be going home early so she can go to another interview. I really don't want to help her but we seriously need her to get a job. I've promised myself I will not be petty or irresponsible for the sake of revenge. I know she's sick and is trying but I'm too burnt out on bad sleep, the jungle heat, and depression to have the mindfulness to keep that mindset.

I'm not trying to throw a pity party here or anything. Just really needed to share.      

~ROE

[Enabler]

Hey ROE, sounds like you've had a few challenges there.

I wonder whether or not the social worker visit can be seen as an opportunity. It's going to be stressful and you will need to mentally prepare yourself to show yourself in your best light especially since your wife is likely to put her best shiny mask on for the occasion. What kind of behaviours do you want to show the social worker about yourself and the way that you interact with the kids (weaknesses and being aware of your weaknesses is no bad thing, neither is asking for help, there's no training for being a parent). What strengths do you want to show? What hindrances do you feel would be important to highlight? It is important to remember that if your wife is present, hindrances such as "My W gives the kids sweets after I have cleaned their teeth at night, then smirks sarcastically at me" maybe seen as an attack by your wife, be denied and lead to her dysregulating... .BUT, this maybe something you may want to stimulate such that the mask slips enough so the social worker can see past the good behaviour.

Why do you think that a social worker has been called? What do you think your wife has told the Dr? I suggest you open your mind to all available potentials here. 

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Enabler, I actually do welcome the social worker into the situation and see this as a good development. It will provide the hospital with a much fuller picture of the problem and the dangers.   

I will let the social worker know about my anger / codependency problems and how it affects the kids and the marriage. It's important they get a full picture of the dynamic, not just mom is sick and it's messing everyone else up. I've got my role in things, too. But I want to show that I have made commitments towards improving my own mental health and the overall stability of the family and that it was me who got us to the hospital.

My instincts tell me my wife possibly brought up some recent actions on her part, cutting up my clothes for example, or hitting me, since she had admitted these things to our marriage counselor over text in the past. I know for certain she brought up some of her problems with alcohol. I think this sent up red flags for the doctor that this was more than a little marital discord.

How I discuss will also depend on if the sw meets with us individually or together.

~ROE

[Turkish]

Roland,

The social worker's number one goal is going to determine if the kids are safe. This person is not your wife's friend nor yours  I don't scare easily,  but the scariest moment I can remember since childhood was when the CPS SW sat across from me and reminded me that they had the power to take the kids if we didn't keep them safe.  

Issues of codependency are best left between you and a therapist. Even though a T is a mandatory reporter of suspected abuse, the T is there to help you and almost all of what is said is protected by confidentially.  Stick to facts. I'm not saying minimize or lie,  but be careful about oversharing. Think of the SW like a cop. Remember Miranda. 

The CPS worker ended by saying,  "we're closing the case for now,  but we can reopen it very easily at any time." Yes,  that was a threat, even though I'm the one who called and got them involved in the first place.  

[Enabler]

I will let the social worker know about my anger / codependency problems and how it affects the kids and the marriage. It's important they get a full picture of the dynamic, not just mom is sick and it's messing everyone else up. I've got my role in things, too.

Hey ROE, I don't think I explained myself very well. This is definitely not the time to use words like anger. Turkish has direct experience of this so best to take his lead on things, however I would imagine talking about frustrations and challenges and how you sometimes lack the tools to resolve situations. You are the one who is at the coal face and it's totally acceptable to have challenges and get frustrated, you seek solutions for those challenges not look to blame others. If your wife wants to talk about your anger (probable) and blame you (probable) then there's not much you can do about that, however it's likely to be visible to the social worker. Some of those challenges and frustrations might be related to your W blindsiding you with things like the post tooth brushing sweets but you may want to consider how you bring that up in a constructive manner.

I don't know for what reasons a Dr may have a mandatory reporting requirement in relation to hitting, cutting clothes and drinking, probably hitting and drinking. Do you think this is something she is likely to have opened up to the Dr about as well as the T? Is there a chance your behavior has been bought up by her? I could envisage her not wanting to be the only person dragged through the mud.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Turkish and Enabler, wow, thank you! I obviously had a very incorrect view of what a social worker is sent in for.

I really don't know what might wife might say. I like to maintain the belief that deep down she's a good person and wouldn't lie to a SW about things I've done, say I've abused the kids. Which is not to say I'm innocent. With me it's extended as far as holding S5 too tight by the hands or arms, but I don't recall him ever showing pain or crying out. Maybe I'm using a lot of strength in my mind but not as much in reality. I think I have a built-in fail safe switch when it comes to violence.

I don't really know what to do about my wife's part. I think she has been better the last few months to the kids since I brought the police in. No hitting or drinking - that I am aware of. But I think there some emotional abuse in the case of my son. And she uses to kids to get at me, case in point the candy stuff.

Honestly, even if drinking and hitting is out of the picture (and I can't be sure it is forever) I really don't know how to define how healthy the current environment is for them. Some of this may be up to the SW to evaluate. I don't want the kids to lose their mother. But I may need to face some realities here. Getting nervous about this but going to let things go the way they should.

~ROE

[Enabler]

I really don't know what might wife might say. I like to maintain the belief that deep down she's a good person and wouldn't lie to a SW about things I've done, say I've abused the kids. Which is not to say I'm innocent.

ROE, it's good to maintain that belief and it's going to be very helpful for you maintaining a high level of empathy, love and care for your wife's inner morals. However, I would beg you to think about how your wife reacts in a) Stressful situations b) when she feels as though she is being threatened. The social workers visit is likely to trigger 2 of the pwBPD's biggest nemesis's... .Guilt and Shame. At the core of a pwBPD's issue's is an abject desire to avoid the negative painful feelings of both of these emotions. A common way to dispel these emotions is to deflect them on to other people... .i.e. YOU. I do not recommend that you take either a defensive or attacking stance, but I would suggest that you look through the delusion that you are going to see her best side in this situation. I think anyone would feel like their parenting ability, their moral code and conduct and their ability to control themselves would be called into question by a social worker... .that's their job... .and with a pwBPD these feelings will be magnified a lot.

I was discussing physical restraint with my T last night and the feelings of helplessness which lead to me perceiving physical restraint is the only option. We concluded that it really has to be the last resort especially in my current situation... .and we are both in somewhat niche situations. Physically holding a child by the wrist does not amount to child abuse and holding a child's wrists such that if they didn't pull it would be loose I believe to be acceptable. "If you choose to pull then it will be tight, if you choose not to it's as though I am not even holding your wrist"... .you know the grip. Your behavior if my assessment is correct is within the bounds of normal. Your niche situation is that you W wishes to place in the perpetrator position so will use any opportunity you give her to do this... .so it's in your interest to avoid giving her such opportunity. This is a common conundrum for parents across the globe, it doesn't amount to you being abusive unless there is something you're telling us all... .it's not ideal, but you know that already... .but then neither is a defiant child and wife that wants to take you out at the knees.

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you for the warning, Enabler. When we speak to the social worker all of her bad behavior is going to be held up into the light, this time by a stranger. No way to predict how she will react to that.

There's one thing I've been meaning to say here for a while but keep forgetting to get to it. My wife has been giving me the silent treatment along with a bunch of passive aggressive techniques for close to a week now. The major effects of these behavior is that they make me feel like a shamed dog in my mind, even if I know I didn't do anything wrong. But I will not be made to feel ashamed in my own home any longer, the home for which I have paid all the rent, put everything together, taken care of my children and pregnant wife in, gotten up every night for 5 years to feed two babies in, cleaned, fixed, changed 1000 diapers in and given love to my family in. I try to treat my wife like a ghost and be the way in the house I would be when she's normal or not around. It's damn hard and the silent treatment still makes my head want to explode, but she can have her own chaos party.  

~ROE

[Turkish]

So despite all that you do,  you feel unappreciated ROE? Add to that how she acts and treats you despite it all? That's a hard place to be and to deal with.  

[RolandOfEld]

So despite all that you do,  you feel unappreciated ROE? Add to that how she acts and treats you despite it all?

Hi Turkish, yeah that sums it up pretty well. I'm far from perfect and can be plenty annoying in my own ways. I'm not even asking for appreciation. Everything I did, I did willingly - it was a gift and I do not ask anything in return. I just don't want the rain of abuse an accusations of being a terrible husband / father. I know it's all not true, finally I know this, but when someone validates your feelings, buys you chocolate to make amends, cooks you a healthy dinner when you're on your way out to a job interview even after you've been abusing them all week, and you still can't stop, that's where I say it's time to get off the bus.

Do you feel any of the same? I need to be refreshed on your story a bit.

~ROE

[Turkish]

Months of getting up at 6 on weekends,  changing the baby,  feeding her and then S3, doing laundry,  making breakfast, entertaining... .  when their mom wouldn't get up until 9am. Yes.  I did what I had to do. 

[RolandOfEld]

There are two very different tones in the house regarding these kinds of things when she's normal and dysregulated:

Normal: Husband is doing these things so that I can rest a bit more since I take care of the kids every day. He's a good dad and husband. I will help him where I can.  

Dysregulated: Serves him right to have to do these things alone while I relax in the bedroom since he's such a bad husband / father and I take such great care of the kids every day. I will do nothing to help him and he can't do anything about it. Hahaha!

Again, this comes back to her using the kids as a weapon. It is my privilege and honor to take care of them, but I know when she's using them to hurt me.

~ROE

[Enabler]

I started writing a pity party list of all the things that I do around the house and for the family... .I deleted and had a big siiiiiiiiiiiigh to myself. I have certainly pulled my own weight and some in this relationship. I was reading back through old text messages last night and a couple of things struck me... .the number of times I have been lambasted for not doing small easily forgettable tasks like putting the dishwasher on. There's no big picture perspective taken... .EVER. No, well he was staying up late to do the late feed whilst I got my head down, and he does get up at 5am so maybe I'll just let that slide. The second was the lack of empathy when my misfortune with my commute interrupted her plans. Almost as though I intentionally caused an accident on the motorway or caused tubes and trains to be delayed. It was as though my employment which affords her a very comfortable life was an inconvenience for her. She lives in a fantasy world where things just happen... .blissfully unaware that people around her are scurrying around to clean up the carnage she leaves in her wake, or meeting her demands.

One cheeky statistic: She's been out 23 evenings in May vs my 5 (1 of which was a therapy session for an hour, 2 of which were 5 a-side football lasting an hour, and the other 2 was a camping trip we were both on). I am somewhat looking forward to her current fantasy world colliding with reality post divorce when that number is reduced DRAMATICALLY, unless that is that her parents rescue her as per usual. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh again.

[RolandOfEld]

There's no big picture perspective taken... .EVER. No, well he was staying up late to do the late feed whilst I got my head down, and he does get up at 5am so maybe I'll just let that slide.

Yes yes yes. Got up three times during the night with D2 took care of the kids for the whole day took them on bus out to playcenter food-shopped cooked healthy lunch + healthy dinner did laundry hung laundry folded laundry tidied vacuumed fed them cleaned up bathed them got them ready for bed put them to sleep but OOPS! forgot to wash out the glass with milk in it right away because I NEVER listen to her about these things and I always have an EXCUSE.

The second was the lack of empathy... .

Another crime which I should burn in Hades for. Like how she's been getting rejected for jobs all this week and I've done nothing to support, except for listening and empathizing to everything she has to say, taking non-stop leaves for her interviews and preparation time, coaching her, helping her fill out application forms. Really, I've done absolutely nothing because I have NO EMPATHY.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

Roland,

You are getting good advice from Enabler and Turkish here.  Let me particularly highlight Turkish's caution about the social worker.

The letter that you wrote to your rabbi comes to mind now.  Yes, you've made a lot of progress since then, but you are still at great risk of underemphasizing your wife's misbehavior and overemphasizing your own.  You are at risk because of your history of doing this, because you don't want to throw her under the bus.  You might also be worried about seeming like someone with an axe to grind, so you may play it too soft on your wife and too hard on yourself.

Treat the social worker visit like a job interview.  If you reveal a weakness (like the kids and your wife wearing you out), talk about your successful strategies for handling it -- problem solved.  I'm not saying to lie, but present an image of yourself as someone who has self awareness and effectively learns tools to improve things.  You want the social worker to think "Hey, we can work with this guy; I want to support him and invest in him."  Tell the social worker the details of all the child care you do, as well as key issues with your wife's behavior.  If you make it clear you are talking about her behaviors, not her entirety as a person, it will be easier for you to talk, and the social worker will be less likely to see you as someone with an agenda.  But don't hold back on the truth about what she is doing.

WW

[Caleb]

Hi Roland
I find a cold face cloth on the back of the neck helps in short term or going for a walk - walking a dog id good if you have one.
I also recommend meditation in morning (& evening after a time) - you can start with 10mins and buildup to 30min - there's lots of Youtube videos that can  help focus your meditation.
Journaling too is great - congratulations on starting that. Remember to journal what you're grateful for - from little to big, from your breath, health, where you live, to your wife and children - everything!
Take care

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Caleb, thank you for you the great suggestions. I have a YouTube mediation video in my cache but haven't gotten to it yet since too much chaos. But chaos might be the best time for it. The journal idea is great, too!

Thanks, WW, an update on the social worker: I visited our psychiatrist a few days ago to get some sleep aids. I didn't plan to ask about my wife since I thought that was her personal business, but the doctor asked if the social worker had been in touch yet. I told her I honestly didn't know since my wife had barely spoken to me for a week. I asked what the purpose of the social worker was for, and the doctor said it was mostly about my wife, who she told me directly has very severe emotional regulation problems (she didn't come right out and say BPD). But she said that it was also to help the two of us resolve issues in having very different values in parenting. My guess here is that my wife fed her the usual story that I was unwilling to take paternity leave and so she got stuck at home with the kids (I took two paternity leaves and the second one cost me my job). I was a bit annoyed by this part but let it go. She said the social worker will talk to my wife first and then to me. I'm gonna lay it all down on the table.

~ROE

[RolandOfEld]

Regarding the below, I was considering opening a new thread but since I already have such great parenting gurus on the line here I'll use this one:

Big conflict last night. During bedtime, uBPDw started in on S5 about how he was going to the nanny tomorrow so she could do job interview work, which made him burst into tears and cry. I think sending them to nanny for a few hours = very OK; connecting the reason to how he didn't think to get her a treat when out with me during me the day and didn't thank her for the jello she bought him = very not OK because it makes him feel his place in our home is conditional. So like last time I stepped in and told her to stop and she couldn't connect the two things. She said look at how baba is yelling at me and took him into the living room. She kept trying to convince him why he should go. I went in and tried to rationally explain to her that he was exhausted and there was no way he was going to accept it right now, and that while it was good for her to let him know in advance, we could talk to him about it again in the morning. I took him back into bed held him and put my hands over his ears as she kept going at it, saying "You're going to the nanny" again and again. Eventually she grabbed his legs and dragged him crying into her bed and forced him to cuddle with her. He kept crying and said he wanted to go back with baba. She crawled in next to him and held him sweetly and said she loved him but explained how she and D2 would move away and he could stay with baba. More tortured crying from him until he fell asleep from exhaustion.  

Guys, should I keep stepping in here? When I do it just seems to make things worse. I think she even does some of these things to him to get back at me. Before I knew about her BPD I always used to keep my mouth shut to maintain the image of parental solidarity and avoiding confusing him, but I can see how abusive this behavior is, though it doesn't seem like something you can report to police. There was no where I could take him at that time of night. I even had the incredibly dark thought of pulling a knife on my wife and threatening her to stop. It breaks my heart to see him feel like his place in his own home is not secure and that mama will hurt him like this. I felt utterly powerless.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

Hi Roland,

That's a tough story to read; I'm sorry for you and your son that you both had to experience that.  Her behavior was disturbingly far out of bounds in several ways.  But yes, it does sound like your attempts to intervene made things worse.  When you suggest to us the possibility of reasoning with her, you are losing track of your wife's limited skill set.

Over time, you've been getting better at regulating your emotions in the moment, being mindful about your actions, and working more effectively.  There's still some work left to do here.  But -- and this is important -- do not get discouraged.  You are making good progress.  The level of your wife's dysfunction, plus the fact that you're raising small children, let alone your situation as an immigrant in a different culture mean that you have some very advanced challenges, even for folks around these parts.  Though it may not feel like it, you are performing far beyond where many other people would perform in a similar situation.

A few days after the fact, you probably could analyze the situation as well as I could.  Your wife wasn't open to your input, perceived you as a threat, and acted out against you.  You tried to influence her, but you were not able to.  It amounted to instigation rather than influence, because she perceived an attack.

I can only think of a single instance where directly confronting my wife seemed successful in hindsight -- and that was an instance of physical safety.  My wife was enraged, not rational, and was about to take my daughter in the car driving.  I stepped in and did not allow it.  I can remember many instances of trying to intervene in emotional situations that did not end up being effective.  With much older children, old enough that she can't carry them away, I have occasionally made a statement in support of the child who was receiving emotional abuse (something like "I was proud of D14 for how hard she studied for that test.", a statement that was not trying to get my wife to behave differently, just letting the child know believed in her.

If we are in a moment like the one you experienced, the unfortunate fact is that directly intervening can make things worse.  What can we do?

One option is to distract.  Use your creativity to think of a way to move your wife's attention onto another topic.  Something nonvolatile, something she would want to talk about or do.  It might be tough to think of something, but see if you can.  Or come at it appearing to be along the same direction as her, but veering off, "It sounds like S5 will have a big day with the nanny tomorrow while Mommy's doing job interviews!  Why don't you give mommy a high five to wish her luck before you head off to brush your teeth?"  Coming in with positive energy, appearing to back up your wife but steering it in a healthy direction, might be your best bet.

If you make an attempt to help, and it makes things worse, back off.  You might even calmly remove yourself from the room for a bit, close enough that you can hear, but appearing to be disinterested and occupied with other things, so your wife is not playing to you as the audience.  You are still observing things, for three reasons.  The first two are to intervene if there is physical abuse or danger, and to witness and record the incident to relate to your helpers.  Record direct quotes, such as what she said about splitting the family up.  That is important information for your helpers to know.  The third reason is to make note of what negative messages she is sending to your son, so that later, in ways that do not instigate her or that she does not observe, you can send him the positive opposite message.  You don't throw her under the bus, just give him the positive message.  For example, assure him that your love for him is unconditional, and you will use every bit of your intelligence and strength to be there for him.  And show these things to him through your actions.  In fact, over time, you may want to keep adding to a special journal page listing the various negative messages or examples you are worried the children are getting, and through your words and actions develop ways that you can demonstrate the positive opposite to them.  Her boundary violation about pulling him into bed when he didn't want to be there is important.  Make sure you identify and respect his age-appropriate boundaries, particularly around his body, looking for opportunities to highlight his ability to decide things for himself in appropriate ways.

You will not be able to save your children from many of the damaging moments.  That is something that is terribly difficult to accept.  But getting a firm handle on all of the negative messages and figuring out a way to communicate the positive opposites -- that's a meaty, worthwhile task that you can tackle and excel at.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW, thank you for your detailed reply. I've been getting rid of my last leave days so not online for a while.

I've already started implementing your suggestions. It's better. I thought it would be good for my son to see me stand up to mom when she's out of line and say it's not OK, like I always wished my dad would have done, but the fact is it only makes things worse. It's possible my dad might have been able to calm my mom down, but that is not the case in our house. By stepping in I only drive up the hurt for my son. So I let a few things go by. But as soon as we found some quiet time together I sent him positive messages.

Roland

[Radcliff]

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