In praise of people w/ BPD traits, and a dilemma

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I'll do something transgressive here. I suggest that we are all, on some level, attracted to people with BPD traits and bored by those who have none. Probably not ideally healthy, but also probably just human nature.

Background:  Roughly four years ago ended a 19 year marriage (w/ two small kids) to a woman with a horrible history of trauma and an actual BPD diagnosis.  At the time, my impetus for ending the marriage was not so much the BPD antics, but the fact that most of the time, she really did not seem to want me in her life, she did not desire me.  She might have needed me, so that she could avoid feelings of abandonment, but she did not want me. She did not treat me like she valued me in her life. I was tolerated.

Today I am with a woman (about four years, went from ended marriage to this relationship quickly) who has always treated me like she wants me (or at least says so) but who has recently exhibited some behavior that -- I can't believe I'm using the word -- triggers me.  And it also highlights an issue in relationships between men and women that doesn't seem to have a solution.

This woman has been extremely good to me. In material terms, what she does is almost unheard of. We resolve conflict easily, generally speaking. She is a real participant in resolving conflict, too. She's gentle. We're making initial moves to blend families and have a life together.  She also has some concerning traits. She has a wine habit. She comes out of a marriage with a steamroller of a man and for her, conflict has been binary: you either avoid it and smile, or it is all out war and the relationship is over.  She is easily hurt (her self esteem is quite low) and she fears abandonment. She is cynical and has a lot of difficulty with belief. To her, there is no moral center to the universe, people operate solely out of self interest, and I believe that she sometimes thinks I am using her, but in the most agreeable way.  She also occasionally says things to me that (here's the trigger) make me feel like she is barely tolerating me: Pointing out deficiencies in table manners, where in the past I have been complimented on them, or correcting my grammar, while I am a lawyer and speak for a living. 

Recently, three things have happened that are both poignant and troubling.  About two weeks ago, I felt ill on an afternoon before we were to meet for dinner: herself, me, and our children. I sent a text cancelling and apologizing.  She went into low grade text panic and we ended up having dinner. The following day, we spoke and she cried as she confessed that she thought I'd broken up with her.  It was a very emotional conversation. She spoke about how her father, who barely spoke to her, said terrible things to her and made her feel like a bad person (it's true; I cannot imagine saying these things to my daughter). Lots of validation.  I want her very much and have no desire to end our relationship. But to her, cancelling plans means end of relationship.

This past weekend, while dining out, she told me that ours is her longest relationship she has ever had outside her marriage. She said that she has always believed that relationships die a natural death after three years.  I could not tell if she was elated about this (having made it to the four year mark), or anxious because she believes she'd entered a phase where the relationship should have already died, and it's just a matter of time before it does.  If it's the latter, it would explain her distress at my attempted dinner cancellation. She seems to be stuck in this place where there are two competing voices in her head, one telling her to believe, and one telling her that she'd be a fool to believe.  There is nothing I can do to change this, but I do know that the voice telling her she'd be a fool to believe is diminishing her enjoyment of what she has. 

All of these things are interspersed with her telling me that I am "the kindest man on earth," saying repeatedly "thank you for loving me," telling me that she is in love with me, and saying that I am the best lover she has ever had (understandable, I'm pretty good).  She has even said, "You know, after all of this time I am still trying to convince myself that you just love me." But last night I encountered a situation for which I see no solution. I think people on this board will understand what I'm about to describe, at least those of us who cop to being attracted to people with BPD traits.

Yesterday a.m., we were apart, she at her place and I at mine. I woke feeling very much like I needed her in bed, and said so in a text: "I can't think of anything but your body. I need to be with you." She responded immediately with an agreement to convene at 9 p.m. last night and lots of heart emojis.

I arrived at her place a few minutes before 9, and before her -- she was out at a school event.  I disrobed and got in bed, thinking that she'd come home and do the same.  She came home, got into her pajamas, climbed into bed and curled up in a ball two feet away from me.  She said she thought she had a cold. If she did, I couldn't discern it. 

A woman must at least be receptive to sex for a man to advance. She doesn't have to open the door all the way, but she should at least leave it conspicuously ajar. Last night, the door was closed, and after we'd created an understanding that it would be open. 

Here is the dilemma.  I believe that most women need to be activated by the efforts of a man. She might not be walking around wanting sex, but if she is receptive to her partner and has some baseline level of desire, she will respond to his overtures and the desire will develop. When a door is slammed like it was last night, it signals to the man that he should leave her alone.  In my case, my instinct is to leave her very alone: no calls, no texts, no plans until she comes around.  But in her case, not activating her in other ways (plans, conversation, time together) lowers her energy and enthusiasm to the point where she believes the relationship is over.  The sequence is (1) let's have sex, (2) her behavior indicates sex is unwanted, (3) I listen to that and give her space, (4) she interprets space as me leaving her.  And in these circumstances, yes, I really do plan to leave her alone and no, there is no middle ground between ending the relationship and sex. The surest way for a man to kill a woman's desire is to smile and act as if nothing has happened after an event like last night -- to be the family dog. It's that sort of response that eliminates a man as a romantic partner.  Far too many men make this mistake and then wonder why their woman doesn't want them anymore.

Thoughts?

[goateeki]

I'll do something transgressive here. I suggest that we are all, on some level, attracted to people with BPD traits and bored by those who have none. Probably not ideally healthy, but also probably just human nature.

Background:  Roughly four years ago ended a 19 year marriage (w/ two small kids) to a woman with a horrible history of trauma and an actual BPD diagnosis.  At the time, my impetus for ending the marriage was not so much the BPD antics, but the fact that most of the time, she really did not seem to want me in her life, she did not desire me.  She might have needed me, so that she could avoid feelings of abandonment, but she did not want me. She did not treat me like she valued me in her life. I was tolerated.

Today I am with a woman (about four years, went from ended marriage to this relationship quickly) who has always treated me like she wants me (or at least says so) but who has recently exhibited some behavior that -- I can't believe I'm using the word -- triggers me.  And it also highlights an issue in relationships between men and women that doesn't seem to have a solution.

This woman has been extremely good to me. In material terms, what she does is almost unheard of. We resolve conflict easily, generally speaking. She is a real participant in resolving conflict, too. She's gentle. We're making initial moves to blend families and have a life together.  She also has some concerning traits. She has a wine habit. She comes out of a marriage with a steamroller of a man and for her, conflict has been binary: you either avoid it and smile, or it is all out war and the relationship is over.  She is easily hurt (her self esteem is quite low) and she fears abandonment. She is cynical and has a lot of difficulty with belief. To her, there is no moral center to the universe, people operate solely out of self interest, and I believe that she sometimes thinks I am using her, but in the most agreeable way.  She also occasionally says things to me that (here's the trigger) make me feel like she is barely tolerating me: Pointing out deficiencies in table manners, where in the past I have been complimented on them, or correcting my grammar, while I am a lawyer and speak for a living. 

Recently, three things have happened that are both poignant and troubling.  About two weeks ago, I felt ill on an afternoon before we were to meet for dinner: herself, me, and our children. I sent a text cancelling and apologizing.  She went into low grade text panic and we ended up having dinner. The following day, we spoke and she cried as she confessed that she thought I'd broken up with her.  It was a very emotional conversation. She spoke about how her father, who barely spoke to her, said terrible things to her and made her feel like a bad person (it's true; I cannot imagine saying these things to my daughter). Lots of validation.  I want her very much and have no desire to end our relationship. But to her, cancelling plans means end of relationship.

This past weekend, while dining out, she told me that ours is her longest relationship she has ever had outside her marriage. She said that she has always believed that relationships die a natural death after three years.  I could not tell if she was elated about this (having made it to the four year mark), or anxious because she believes she'd entered a phase where the relationship should have already died, and it's just a matter of time before it does.  If it's the latter, it would explain her distress at my attempted dinner cancellation. She seems to be stuck in this place where there are two competing voices in her head, one telling her to believe, and one telling her that she'd be a fool to believe.  There is nothing I can do to change this, but I do know that the voice telling her she'd be a fool to believe is diminishing her enjoyment of what she has. 

All of these things are interspersed with her telling me that I am "the kindest man on earth," saying repeatedly "thank you for loving me," telling me that she is in love with me, and saying that I am the best lover she has ever had (understandable, I'm pretty good).  She has even said, "You know, after all of this time I am still trying to convince myself that you just love me." But last night I encountered a situation for which I see no solution. I think people on this board will understand what I'm about to describe, at least those of us who cop to being attracted to people with BPD traits.

Yesterday a.m., we were apart, she at her place and I at mine. I woke feeling very much like I needed her in bed, and said so in a text: "I can't think of anything but your body. I need to be with you." She responded immediately with an agreement to convene at 9 p.m. last night and lots of heart emojis.

I arrived at her place a few minutes before 9, and before her -- she was out at a school event.  I disrobed and got in bed, thinking that she'd come home and do the same.  She came home, got into her pajamas, climbed into bed and curled up in a ball two feet away from me.  She said she thought she had a cold. If she did, I couldn't discern it. 

A woman must at least be receptive to sex for a man to advance. She doesn't have to open the door all the way, but she should at least leave it conspicuously ajar. Last night, the door was closed, and after we'd created an understanding that it would be open. 

Here is the dilemma.  I believe that most women need to be activated by the efforts of a man. She might not be walking around wanting sex, but if she is receptive to her partner and has some baseline level of desire, she will respond to his overtures and the desire will develop. When a door is slammed like it was last night, it signals to the man that he should leave her alone.  In my case, my instinct is to leave her very alone: no calls, no texts, no plans until she comes around.  But in her case, not activating her in other ways (plans, conversation, time together) lowers her energy and enthusiasm to the point where she believes the relationship is over.  The sequence is (1) let's have sex, (2) her behavior indicates sex is unwanted, (3) I listen to that and give her space, (4) she interprets space as me leaving her.  And in these circumstances, yes, I really do plan to leave her alone and no, there is no middle ground between ending the relationship and sex. The surest way for a man to kill a woman's desire is to smile and act as if nothing has happened after an event like last night -- to be the family dog. It's that sort of response that eliminates a man as a romantic partner.  Far too many men make this mistake and then wonder why their woman doesn't want them anymore.

Thoughts?

[Insom]

Hi, goateeki. 

I hear that you're getting some mixed signals.  Would it be fair to say that you and your partner are both sensitive to rejection?

[goateeki]

Definitely fair to say, and true.  Last week I mentioned to her that the real time correction of my speech and the lecture series on table manners (while she and I eat together) hurt me and makes me feel like she is merely tolerating me in her life.  She said that that's not true, and she said that the correcting of speech is something "fun that we do" and that I'm welcome to correct hers any time.  Thing is, I know of no one who would regard this activity as fun, and I have no desire to listen critically to another adult's speech and correct it.  Who would? 

But this is more than sensitivity to rejection.  I believe that it's actual rejection.  I believe that some of the behavior she has engaged in since January is an effort (perhaps not a conscious one) to push me away or test me, to see how far she can push me before I end the relationship.

[Insom]

I believe that some of the behavior she has engaged in since January is an effort (perhaps not a conscious one) to push me away or test me, to see how far she can push me before I end the relationship.

It's possible that this is true.  But if so, it doesn't necessarily mean she wants the relationship to end.  More like she's trying to pre-empt or protect herself emotionally from what she perceives as impending rejection. 

Where do you stand with the relationship?

[schwing]

Hi Goateeki,

I'll share my thoughts.

I'll do something transgressive here. I suggest that we are all, on some level, attracted to people with BPD traits and bored by those who have none. Probably not ideally healthy, but also probably just human nature.

I would agree, in that, I think there are some of us (not all) who have been conditioned (by family) to be more responsive to BPD behaviors.  And I would argue that we are not "bored" but rather afraid of what is unfamiliar.  For those of us who are clear that we cannot be happy with these kinds of arrangement, it's in our interest to learn another way.

... .We're making initial moves to blend families and have a life together.  She also has some concerning traits. She has a wine habit. She comes out of a marriage with a steamroller of a man and for her, conflict has been binary: you either avoid it and smile, or it is all out war and the relationship is over.  

Two points I'd like to make here: (1) when a relationship moves from courtship towards developing familial interactions, there is less space to hide undesirable behaviors.  I've noted that for pwBPD, familial dynamics are far more "triggering" than courtship dynamics.  That is, they seem to act out more, the more they perceive us as "family."

(2) "Binary" conflict behaviors, seems to suggest black and white thinking.

She is easily hurt (her self esteem is quite low) and she fears abandonment.

You mention this trait a couple of times and I want to be clear about your meaning.  Fear of abandonment is normal.  No one wants to be abandoned.  And to be abandoned is not the same thing as being alone.  To be abandoned is to be left while you are still depending upon the person who abandoned.

An inappropriate fear of abandonment, on the other hand, would be to perceive or imagine the possibility of abandonment without due cause.  I mentioned that pwBPD seem to be "triggered" by familial dynamics.  I would elaborate by saying pwBPD seem to imagine abandonment more when they feel more connected (familial/intimate/etc) to you -- which in a way makes sense; the more they depend upon you, the more they have to lose if you were to abandon them.

The problem arises, as we do things that (from our perspective) strengthen our bond to them, at the same time escalates their inappropriate fear of abandonment.

... .She also occasionally says things to me that (here's the trigger) make me feel like she is barely tolerating me: Pointing out deficiencies in table manners, where in the past I have been complimented on them, or correcting my grammar, while I am a lawyer and speak for a living.  

I consider this devaluing behavior; the flip side of idealizing behavior -- both a part of the black and white distorted thinking that pwBPD exhibit.  When pwBPD do this to us, we interpret it as "mixed signals."  We're trying to figure out, do they like me or not?  They are cycling through both perspectives (i.e. I hate you, don't leave/abandon me).

Recently, three things have happened that are both poignant and troubling.  About two weeks ago, I felt ill on an afternoon before we were to meet for dinner: herself, me, and our children. I sent a text cancelling and apologizing.  She went into low grade text panic and we ended up having dinner. The following day, we spoke and she cried as she confessed that she thought I'd broken up with her.  It was a very emotional conversation.

This reaction smacks of inappropriate fear of abandonment.  I mean, maybe, if this sort of situation has happened to her in the past, repeatedly, where someone cancelled on a dinner while feigning illness, I could understand this kind of reaction.  

She spoke about how her father, who barely spoke to her, said terrible things to her and made her feel like a bad person (it's true; I cannot imagine saying these things to my daughter).

This is the kind of abandonment/betrayal/denigration trauma that in part contributes to the development of BPD in a person.

... .She seems to be stuck in this place where there are two competing voices in her head, one telling her to believe, and one telling her that she'd be a fool to believe.  There is nothing I can do to change this, but I do know that the voice telling her she'd be a fool to believe is diminishing her enjoyment of what she has.  

This is what I imagine pwBPD go through in their heads the longer they progress in a relationship.  The closer they feel towards the person they are with, the more often (and more intensely) they experience this inappropriate fear that they will be abandoned.  Two competing voices.  First one says look how close we are, look at how hard this other person tries to demonstrate their love.  The second voice says, this is all a trick to catch us unguarded.  It is better to leave (abandon) than to be left (abandoned).

Yesterday a.m., we were apart, she at her place and I at mine. I woke feeling very much like I needed her in bed, and said so in a text: "I can't think of anything but your body. I need to be with you." She responded immediately with an agreement to convene at 9 p.m. last night and lots of heart emojis.

I arrived at her place a few minutes before 9, and before her -- she was out at a school event.  I disrobed and got in bed, thinking that she'd come home and do the same.  She came home, got into her pajamas, climbed into bed and curled up in a ball two feet away from me.  She said she thought she had a cold. If she did, I couldn't discern it.

Isn't it almost as though, between the time that you were enamored making plans for the evening, between that time, she entertained many thoughts of you abandoning, betraying or denigrating her?  

From your perspective, you were just anticipating.  From her perspective, maybe she was reacting to voice #2.

***OR***

She is showing you the flipside of the "dinner cancellation episode."  Remember, you made dinner plans in advance.  But then you called and cancelled because you felt ill.  And she interpreted it as you signalling for the end of the relationship.

This time, in the morning you made plans for the evening.  Something happened.  And whatever that something was, she reacts to it almost as if she were ending the relationship.  She in fact rejects you, maybe?  Abandon first in order to avoid abandonment.

The surest way for a man to kill a woman's desire is to smile and act as if nothing has happened after an event like last night -- to be the family dog. It's that sort of response that eliminates a man as a romantic partner.  Far too many men make this mistake and then wonder why their woman doesn't want them anymore.

I don't think this is a run-of-the-mill male/female mars/vensus interaction that is playing out.  I think there is more to it than that.

I hope some of this helps.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Fie]

Hello Goateeki  

I believe that most women need to be activated by the efforts of a man. She might not be walking around wanting sex, but if she is receptive to her partner and has some baseline level of desire, she will respond to his overtures and the desire will develop.

I am only 1 woman, so I cannot speak for all of them. But I think you might be overgeneralizing here. I think the thing you are describing here can be true for both men and women. Plus, it's not because our partner is trying to activate us, that we automatically are. Sometimes people are tired, or just not in the mood. I have seen several (male) partners react like that, and while it might feel to you as rejection, it really is just human behavior.

When a door is slammed like it was last night, it signals to the man that he should leave her alone.

I wasn't there, so I don't know exactly how your partner reacted. But if it's just not wanting sex and curling up in her pyjama's, hmm than I guess you might want to think about what it is you mean with 'leave her alone'. If you mean stop making sexual advances than yes I'd agree. But if what you mean is, stop calling her, texting her, making plans, until she's ready to have sex with you again, than I wonder if it might be possible that you consider the not wanting to have sex as a sign that she's rejecting you.

I understand you were disappointed, since you made arrangements in the morning to meet at night for clearly stated sexual purposes. I would be disappointed too     But truth is, a lot of time had passed between the morning and the evening. In between, life happened. And life is not perfect, and not a fairy tale. We get tired, upset, etc. Sometimes curling up romantically is a better way to bond then having sex.

Personally I have seen that whenever I think about men / women in a too generalized / cliche way, I just ruin the experience I am having with my partner. I have noticed that in some ways and sometimes, I think more like a men than my partner, and vice versa. Whenever I see my partner as human, and not as a man, it makes it easier, and the bonding is more real. It also puts less pressure on him I think.

What do you think ?

[goateeki]

Fie, thank you.  I needed to hear from a woman. 

I DO consider her not wanting to have sex as a sign she is rejecting me.  I most definitely do. 

My fear is that I end up doing what so many men make the mistake of doing... .being endlessly available, being endlessly empathetic, and then being looked upon as one might look upon a family dog.  This destroys desire.  Distance and some small measure of insecurity, or uncertainty, is what creates desire.  Fire needs air, right? 

I believe that women (and maybe men, too) really want the security of emotional intimacy with their partner.  More than anything else.  But sex is validating in a primal way, so we want that too.  We reach emotional intimacy, and then suddenly our partner is less attractive.  This whole dynamic is especially pronounced with pwBPD, I think.  The need for security is so great it usually cannot be fulfilled, but some people do manage to fulfill it.  And then they become boring to the pwBPD (or maybe anyone).  All the mystery and fire is gone. 

I really want to avoid this.  I want to have sex with her, not text her.  Everything you say is valid and I agree with it.  I'm coming at it from a slightly different angle.  Does anything I say here resonate with you? 

[Starfire]

Rejecting sex is not the same thing as rejecting the person.  Not always, anyway.  There are a lot of reasons a woman may not want to have sex (or be able to have sex) that has nothing to do with her feelings for her partner.  Also, as a woman, I agree with Fie that you're making generalizations which may not be applicable.  You may be oversimplifying.  Sexual desire for a woman can be complex, and just having a man "activate" us... .well, that idea is almost insulting.

_{The sequence is (1) let's have sex, (2) her behavior indicates sex is unwanted, (3) I listen to that and give her space, (4) she interprets space as me leaving her.} 

Am I understanding correctly that this behavior has been repeating since January?  Or was it just this once?  Have you talked about this with her?  Have you asked what she is feeling?  Did you ask what she was feeling when she cozied up in her pajamas?

_{And in these circumstances, yes, I really do plan to leave her alone and no, there is no middle ground between ending the relationship and sex.}

I want to make sure I'm interpreting you correctly here.  Do you mean that YOU think there is no middle ground?  That is, do you intend to end the relationship if she continues to intermittently reject sex?  If so, have you communicated that to her?

I'm trying to read you in good faith, but I admit I'm having some difficulty with your ideas about female sexual desire.  Also, I'm not discounting the rest of your post.  You have some other great responses, so I thought I'd address the part where I might be of help.

[goateeki]

Starfire, I know I must sound like I am generalizing and I admit I probably am.  No offense intended at all.  Please keep in mind that there is a certain amount of angst in me today, too.  What I say about women being "activated" is exactly what she has told me about herself and she also tells me that is is the same for all the women she knows.  "Activated" is actually her word. She said she thinks it's unusual for a woman to want sex, that female sexuality is almost totally responsive.  After she started saying these things to me, I began to to think that she could be right.  I have no way of knowing and from a male's point of view, her characterization of it doesn't seem totally unreasonable.  I'd thought that women do have some level of desire and initiative -- that had always been my experience until her.  I've even asked my mother about my girlfriend's characterization of it, and my mother said that the only time she felt she wanted sex the way a man might is when she was young and only during ovulation. 

My no middle ground comment is linked to her. It's not how I view things generally of ever hope they would be.  I feel though that because her need for "reassurance," as she puts it, is so great, and because I meet that need, the more I validate, the more I make myself available, the more I become to her just a friend.  I feel like I've walked into a framework in which anything I do to press my needs will be unwelcome, and anything I do to cater to hers will make me less desirable and therefore less able to pursue my needs.  It's a real knot.

Do you think that some measure of mystery and autonomy must surround a man in order for him to be attractive?  Because I am beginning to feel that I am so available, so reliably there for her, and so non-reactive to her angry behavior that I've become a bit of an emotional punching bag. 

I also am realizing that in my mind, I am right on the border of being unable to initiate sex with her.  I am beginning to feel like I'm about to become that guy who paws his girlfriend, who is a pest.  And this takes place amidst her statement that I am "the best lover" she's ever had. 

It's a tough situation to be in. 

[Fie]

Hello,

I am really sorry that you are in the middle of this and that you feel bad.

She said she thinks it's unusual for a woman to want sex, that female sexuality is almost totally responsive.

I think that's a very individual thing to say. It *totally* doesn't count for me ! I also don't relate to the thing your mum said.

I don't really know what to think about mystery being necessary to have (good) sex. For me it's not the case. I have been in long relationships where I wanted to have sex as much as in the beginning of the relationship, after years.

I guess we all, also women, sometimes also act / think as society wants us to think. A good girl is not a sl... so doesn't want sex all of the time. Bs of course, but pressure of cultural images is strong and unconscious. For me I know that oftentimes I want sex more often than my male partner. I really don't think I'm an exception.

And I have noticed that I need less emotional attachment than a lot of men. So also there, it's contradictory to the cliche 'what men want' / 'what women want'.

I do understand very much that  after some time of initiating sex more then her, you feel like you want  to back off a little. But I would strongly advice you to stay available emotionally.

[Starfire]

Starfire, I know I must sound like I am generalizing and I admit I probably am.  No offense intended at all.  Please keep in mind that there is a certain amount of angst in me today, too.  What I say about women being "activated" is exactly what she has told me about herself and she also tells me that is is the same for all the women she knows.  "Activated" is actually her word. She said she thinks it's unusual for a woman to want sex, that female sexuality is almost totally responsive.  After she started saying these things to me, I began to to think that she could be right.  I have no way of knowing and from a male's point of view, her characterization of it doesn't seem totally unreasonable.  I'd thought that women do have some level of desire and initiative -- that had always been my experience until her.  I've even asked my mother about my girlfriend's characterization of it, and my mother said that the only time she felt she wanted sex the way a man might is when she was young and only during ovulation. 

Ah, that explains why that entire description sounded forced and odd.  Again I agree with Fie, this is an individual response.  It is certainly not typical for me or for any of my women friends.  Trust me, we talk about these things!  It is absolutely not unusual for a woman to want sex.  There's something deeper going on there.
 

My no middle ground comment is linked to her. It's not how I view things generally of ever hope they would be.  I feel though that because her need for "reassurance," as she puts it, is so great, and because I meet that need, the more I validate, the more I make myself available, the more I become to her just a friend.  I feel like I've walked into a framework in which anything I do to press my needs will be unwelcome, and anything I do to cater to hers will make me less desirable and therefore less able to pursue my needs.  It's a real knot.

Indeed it is a knot, but perhaps one of your own making?  If you haven't had a conversation with her about it, you really are just making assumptions.  I'm not sure how you're going to unravel it without pressing your needs.  I don't mean become the guy who paws his girlfriend, but definitely become the guy who tells his girlfriend that she's the sexiest babe he's ever met and wants to understand how to work through this.

Do you think that some measure of mystery and autonomy must surround a man in order for him to be attractive?  Because I am beginning to feel that I am so available, so reliably there for her, and so non-reactive to her angry behavior that I've become a bit of an emotional punching bag. 

For me, no, there is no measure of mystery and autonomy needed for there to be attraction.  Whatever attracted me to the dude in the first place is what will keep me attracted, both physically and emotionally.  It's good that you're available and reliable.  Not so sure about the non-reactive bit.  You can be reactive without being a cad, yes?  You can be reactive without being over-reactive, yes?

It could simply come down to her having a low libido.  There are lots of reasons that could be so, some of them physical and some emotional.  Would she be open to discussing it with her doctor?  Would she be open to you suggesting that she discuss it with her doctor?

It's a conundrum, for sure.  A very sensitive subject.  I hope you work it out.

[Cromwell]

A woman must at least be receptive to sex for a man to advance. She doesn't have to open the door all the way, but she should at least leave it conspicuously ajar. Last night, the door was closed, and after we'd created an understanding that it would be open. 

Here is the dilemma.  I believe that most women need to be activated by the efforts of a man. She might not be walking around wanting sex, but if she is receptive to her partner and has some baseline level of desire, she will respond to his overtures and the desire will develop. When a door is slammed like it was last night, it signals to the man that he should leave her alone.  In my case, my instinct is to leave her very alone: no calls, no texts, no plans until she comes around.  But in her case, not activating her in other ways (plans, conversation, time together) lowers her energy and enthusiasm to the point where she believes the relationship is over.  The sequence is (1) let's have sex, (2) her behavior indicates sex is unwanted, (3) I listen to that and give her space, (4) she interprets space as me leaving her.  And in these circumstances, yes, I really do plan to leave her alone and no, there is no middle ground between ending the relationship and sex. The surest way for a man to kill a woman's desire is to smile and act as if nothing has happened after an event like last night -- to be the family dog. It's that sort of response that eliminates a man as a romantic partner.  Far too many men make this mistake and then wonder why their woman doesn't want them anymore.

Thoughts?

my thoughts are what is the broader power dynamic of this relationship that is causing her to feel these insecurities. Is there a feeling of lack of having some control on her part, manifesting itself in subtle ways such as correcting your grammer, showing you that she can with hold sex when she knows it is at a time you really want it.

my ex with hold sex at the times I really wanted it, I got the best sex during the times I felt not in the mood. The times I really pushed for it, I would get it but it would be emotional connection as much as doing it with a blow up doll. In short, I was conditioned that her biggest hook in the r/s was one that she would be in control of. Perhaps that balanced the wider picture, i was the one carrying the relationship financially and providing her emotional needs.

There is still a bit of culture of mans expectation to chase, to initiate, to open the door as you say. it isnt applied just sexually as it is emotionally. But at the same time, my experience is that this is not always the case and it is really a personal thing if it is something you feel you want to abide by, a choice. For me im looking for openess on both sides, failure to be open is failure of being relationship material. My relationship was transactional in nature, but in an unspoken way. If she is afraid of the r/s demise, she may equally be afraid to be fully open and honest about her feelings. You get some insight, her way of giving hints to how she feels, but its vague and as you say, your left sitting at the table not feeling able to discuss what needs to be discussed.

How you react to this, is her method of pressure testing, without having a discussion. Will you show signs of leaving her because you dont get sex when you want it, or will you accept it.

Is this some out of character behaviour over the 4 years together, or has there been a pattern of this before? If this is the longest she has been in a serious relationship, is there some undercurrent of her starting to sabotage the success, so that it emulates her past experiences. MAybe she did just have a cold.

the only way to find out is to do the opposite, guessing and confront her about it, tell her your disappointment. (if this has became a recognised pattern). As a lawyer, you are more than equipped with the skills to evaluate the credibility of her response. I dont agree that you should accept or generalise the concept of male perogative of having to be the intitiator though, thats fine if your comfortable with that personally, but in my experience it doesnt exist, or more to the point, I didnt accept a r/s where the partner believed in it.

by the sounds of it, there is a lot going on in the back of her mind, id encourage you to get her to open up, or this scenario could become an accepted set-precedent of the same sex-withold to continue. the fact that you dont fully believe her explanation of having a cold is more of a justification to probe further on this, rather than let the question mark hang over this.

[goateeki]

Cromwell, I think that there is a kind of power dynamic in the relationship that she feels, but that I do not.  There is a ten year age difference between us, she the older.  I'll provide some detail here that is probably going to sound cocky, but it's not, I'm just providing what I think is important information.  She was, and still is, extremely good looking.  She gets a lot of male attention and she always has.  I think that it has waned in recent years (she is nearly 60, but I swear to you she turns the heads of young and old alike).  I think that it is a large part of her identity and an asset whose value she thinks is decreasing.  She admits she is vain, and I'll give you one of the more disturbing examples of it: when she left her husband around seven years ago, she took up with her children's tennis instructor, who was 20 years her junior.  She tells me he was a nightmare of a human being with a substance abuse problem, a fraudster on whom she had to call law enforcement (this is all true and verified, too, it's not just her trash talking a former paramour).  She has described to me what got her into that relationship, and in a nutshell, it played greatly to her vanity.  She knew he was bad news, nearly a child, barely able to make a living, but because he was 20 years younger, she felt good about herself and it staved off her fear of aging. 

The cocky part:  I work hard to be in very good shape, not for looks but because I'm an athlete and need to be in good shape to be competitive.  She heaps the superlatives on me -- best body she's ever seen, best lover, etc.  It's a way of relating that's a little foreign to me, though I admit it feels good when she says these things. 

So that, to me, is the dynamic.  She sees her youth and looks fading, and is with a man in his 40's who is, according to her, extremely attractive.  I've also noticed that she has no difficulty "negging" me by dropping references to men she's been with, how they confessed their undying love for her, chased her, etc.  She has related multiple attempted sexual assaults (one that involved law enforcement). It sounds forced and deliberate and often when she mentions these things, I just feel bad for her.  The message is that she is greatly desired by many men.  Once after a few drinks she said to me that she thinks I've had many more partners than she and that I'm whole orders of magnitude beyond her in terms of sexual sophistication.  Again, thoughts and views that are alien to me -- comparing levels of experience and sophistication.

As far as sex, she has said many times that I can do whatever I like to her whenever I want to, and generally I do.  This is why the event that I originally wrote about was so significant to me.  Since then, she volunteered -- I did not even bring it up, she did -- that I "should have just taken [her]." 

And yes, there is plenty of reason to believe that she's always afraid that I'll leave her.  The strange thing is that when she has those moments that she feels secure that I won't, she loses interest.  It's as if some people cannot be engaged in a relationship and desire their partner unless there is some real prospect of the relationship disappearing.

Women are complicated. 

[Fie]

Dear Goateeki,


What stands out for me in your last post is this :

As far as sex, she has said many times that I can do whatever I like to her whenever I want to, and generally I do.

You said in a previous comment "I believe that she sometimes thinks I am using her, but in the most agreeable way."

The way you are describing your relationship and the role sex plays in it, I would say it does sound to me like you are using her. Hope you don't mind me saying, I of course don't know the full picture. But I would hate it when a man does whatever he wants to me, whenever he wants. That would be a no-go. I am currently with someone who makes me feel like my needs, bot emotionally and sexually, are very important to him, and hell that feels good. It makes me more attracted to him, and I would never see him as the family dog you are referring to. Maybe again, this is personal. But your last sentence, 'Woman are complicated', for me might reveal part of the problem.
The guy I am with makes me feel like a person. Not like a woman. And it has been a long, long time, that I didn't feel so good about someone.

How about seeing your partner for the person she is ? Not as a 'woman', but as a human ? And work from there ?

[goateeki]

Fie, there is something I might have omitted from all of this.  I treat this woman with absolute kindness, and it's real.  She says to me over and over that she's never been with someone who has treated her so consistently kindly.  A voice is never raised, everything stops when she speaks and she gets 100% of my attention, and I listen.  Even when she becomes a bit "disregulated" (as I've described in previous posts), I don't react, I don't raise my voice.  I do make it known that what she says hurts, but I don't let it devolve into a war.  I would say that I haven't put a foot wrong in the listening and understanding her as a person department.  I'm proud of it and I know it's something she really values about our relationship.

This is more about sex, and some unusual signals, and what they mean.  A long time ago, she said to me that her attraction to a man was based almost totally on how strongly he came on to her.  She is generally passive in bed, but to her the most memorable nights are those on which she is energetically dominated, for lack of a better term. 

Fie, please don't think that I view her as an object.  I think most of us are here because we tend to overvalue the people with whom we have intimate relationships, and idealize them.  I know that there are nights when she enjoys being treated as an object, however. I know how much our relationship means to her; I also know how much it means to me.  I really think I'd have a hard time being with someone other than her. I'm hooked.