All these articles emphasize BPD is cureable -who here has seen that?

[DogMan75]

I haven’t seen any improvement in my BPD after over a year of DBT twice a week. She doesn’t even admit having BPD.

Are all of these articles full of it? Do you have to do a $60,000 residential program? What is the discrepancy here?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[isilme]

Curable?  I've never seen that.

I see it as a condition like diabetes - there is no cure, just lifestyle adjustments that make it more manageable.

Now - imagine if diabetes came with a symptom of avoiding blame, shame, and responsibility.  Do you think that it'd be easy to see or admit you have it?

[isilme]

It's not detox for alcoholism.  It's not depression or a chemical imbalance like bipolar (although both can exist WITH BPD).  You can't treat it with drugs, you can't "cure" it.  In the cases I just listed, putting that person into therapy alone might help them.  BPD is not like this. 

It's an emotional disorder that has hallmarks of irrational, disproportionate reactions to stimuli.  It can involve poor executive control (inability to "adult" consistently).  It can involve toxic shame when shame gets past their defense, and lots and lots of blame shifting, rewriting of history, all to avoid that blame.  It is a behavioral issue, where their thought processes are skewed to protect them, to keep us at arm's length until we are needed, as a prosthetic to feel what they can't process and to make better or blame when we can't.

Everything I have read states, honestly, that you CAN work on yourself to decrease the drama.  To remember that you are not dealing with a person to be swayed by rational logic, whose facts are based on feelings.

In about 2007, I was about the break up with my BPDBF.  We were 10 years into the relationship, I was 30, freaking out that he was not growing up, that we were not married, and needed to figure out why he would rage out and be so emotional.  I found this site.  I worked on me.  I learned about validation, how to use SET (still a work in progress, I have a lot of baggage myself).  I learned that JADEing is bad, still trying to not do it. 

As I started changing my responses to my then BF's behaviors, he had to start changing too.  He stopped seeing me at all times as an enemy, and I think that now, we are closer 10 years later, finally married than we ever could have been without this site.  There are still lots of things to process and work on - I am damaged from my childhood, and my instincts are still driven by codependency. 

As the non, the primary work starts with us regardless of any therapy for our BPD SOs.

Meanwhile, many of us never even mention BPD to our SOs.  It would just trigger an event, not push them for self-improvement. 

How did you get her into DBT?  Do you speak to the therapist and ask how things are going, for tips on what you can do at home?  Do you see a T as well?  Have things improved at all?

[DogMan75]

Sorry, something wonky happened when i first posted this, and then again when i tried to fix it.

No, we’re broken up. I’ve never had access to her therapist, but it sounds like she does a fair bit of manipulation to achieve some triangulation with him and I. She has a long history of twisting me into the bad guy. At one point, I gave her (now former) therapist permission to contact my (now former) therapist. My therapist later told me �

[isilme]

I'm sorry.   BPD is such a mess for anyone to try to treat, and many T's seem caught in the web of manipulation and lies that a pwBPD can spin to protect themselves from being at fault for things. 

For any therapy to be useful, the subject has to WANT to make some change.  A pwBPD often can't even admit they may NEED to change, and therefore simply sue it as a tool.  "look, I'm in T.  Why are you mad, now? It's not my fault there is nothing wrong with me, look, my T says so.  And also says you are mean.  And need to fix yourself to treat me better." 

[DogMan75]

Sorry, something went wonky when I first posted this, and then again when I tried to edit it.

No, we’re broken up. I’ve never had access to her therapist, but it sounds like she does a fair bit of manipulation to achieve some triangulation with him and I. She has a long history of twisting me into the bad guy. At one point, I gave her (now former) therapist permission to contact my (now former) therapist. My therapist later told me “Her therapist has got you all wrong. That’s not who you are at all.”

We’ve been broken up since Nov, following a year long therapeutic separation where I successfully stopped contributing to making things worse, and she redoubled her sabotage efforts. She even regressed back into physically assaulting me, which she had not done in years, and after one full year of her not participating in this final last ditch effort, I had no choice but to end it.

Despite this, I told her at the time of the breakup and many times in our continuing contact since, that if she got better, I would always be open to trying again, that I still love her, etc. She told me she was working on herself, using this time alone to grow, etc. Turns out she’d started sleeping with other men (that’s plural) almost immediately and lying to me about it until June 1. Allegedly, her therapist told her she “doesn’t owe me any explanations” which doesn’t seem right if our continuing correspondence was being accurately relayed.  But god only knows what she’s telling him.

She still wants to get back together, but I don’t see how I can.

I’ll be getting back into therapy for myself again soon.


 

[teapay]

My W showed improvements after a year of DBT and some more improvement after another year or two of IFS. 

The patient needs to honestly and sincerely want it enough to work at it as designed.  While I do think some therapy is effective, moat is pretty bad other than minor stuff.  Most T will be more than glad to take  a persons money whether they make progress or not, as long as they are not having problems with the T.  Few will double down on personal accountability at the expense of billing.

She had a BPD dx for several years, but might not meet the dx threshold now and is more functional, but I would not describe her as healthy.

[spacecadet]

My T has told me that the term borderline is on its way out. It's increasingly being viewed as complex PTSD, and the 'cure' is processing the childhood traumas.

At the same time, there are studies that show about half the time symptoms subside on their own, without treatment. No idea why. More can be found on PubMed, the studies really go into the weeds for a non professional, but the intro and summaries are generally easy enough to grasp.

[teapay]

I think my W believes to some degree she has BPD, but hated the dx and was more comfortable with being dual dx with PTSD and MDD.  These are dx bones many T will throw to many BPD to soften it to keep them in therapy.  My W's psychiatrists, though, would not change the dx and kept it as BPD.  They seemed more serious, probably since they were getting rubber gloved often by hospital accreditation agencies, were dealing with meds and were more likely sued.   I was able to dx her with BPD very quickly (about 2 minutes) once I saw the DSM 4 criteria, most of which are very explict and easily identified in someone with clinically active BPD.  Not much harder than dx someone without clothes as naked.  She knows I know she has BPD.  However, since she doesn't like the BPD dx, I dont bring it up and l am okay with however she wants to be dx.

[Highlander]

For me, in answer to your question Yes.  

My H was clinically diagnosed with BPD by at least half a dozen independent psychiatrists and even more psychologists between 6-8 years ago.  However, seeing that H literally came close to death because of it, he accepted diagnosis and worked really hard with DBT and combined therapy with myself in the room and now has had a clinical dx as free from BPD.  

Seeing that BPD behaviours usually only ever appears or are much more active around spouses, I can vouch for his full recovery.  Once he had all 9 symptoms, now, he only suffers from depression and PTSD.  On the odd occasion (every 6 months or so) he may express splitting, but I simply respond with it with "Your Black and White Thinking again Hon".  He pauses, thinks about it, agrees and apologises.  

He was a cutter and he now can't stand the sight of blood!  I can certainly vouch that it is possible to recover, however, I feel that acceptance of diagnosis was vital for H as well as the fact that my H didn't have NPD as well as BPD.  Too many BPD sufferers also suffer from NPD where the lies, manipulations and a complete inability to accept anything is wrong with them impedes on seeking T, T and recovery.

I agree with Spacegadet's T, for my H, BPD seemed to be all about his upbringing.  Much of my H's T were all about retraining his brain to think in ways outside what he was brought up to think and in my H's case, they have no doubt that it was his parents behaviours, actions and thinking (Their own PD's) that caused it.

[DogMan75]

For me, in answer to your question Yes.  

My H was clinically diagnosed with BPD by at least half a dozen independent psychiatrists and even more psychologists between 6-8 years ago.  However, seeing that H literally came close to death because of it, he accepted diagnosis and worked really hard with DBT and combined therapy with myself in the room and now has had a clinical dx as free from BPD.  

Seeing that BPD behaviours usually only ever appears or are much more active around spouses, I can vouch for his full recovery.  Once he had all 9 symptoms, now, he only suffers from depression and PTSD.  On the odd occasion (every 6 months or so) he may express splitting, but I simply respond with it with "Your Black and White Thinking again Hon".  He pauses, thinks about it, agrees and apologises.  

He was a cutter and he now can't stand the sight of blood!  I can certainly vouch that it is possible to recover, however, I feel that acceptance of diagnosis was vital for H as well as the fact that my H didn't have NPD as well as BPD.  Too many BPD sufferers also suffer from NPD where the lies, manipulations and a complete inability to accept anything is wrong with them impedes on seeking T, T and recovery.

I agree with Spacegadet's T, for my H, BPD seemed to be all about his upbringing.  Much of my H's T were all about retraining his brain to think in ways outside what he was brought up to think and in my H's case, they have no doubt that it was his parents behaviours, actions and thinking (Their own PD's) that caused it.

This is great to hear. I’m both happy for you and jealous!

My ex’s was totally the result of her BPD mom and over-the-top NPD dad.

[spacecadet]

This article describes recovery process pretty well when BPD is treated as ptsd  www.pete-walker.com/fAQsComplexPTSD.html 

When I was getting to know my ex, his conduct, fear and skittishness, and an expectation that at any moment I might go off on him or shame him for something, convinced me that he suffered from ptsd. My T affirmed that in fact the dx of BPD is sliding in the direction of ptsd. Therapy that centers only on DBT and the like is ineffective according to her, and my observations are consistent with this. The underlying trauma(s) must be addressed because that's what the flashbacks are about, and they can be triggered by something as benign as our facial expression when we're vexed or frustrated. My T says, bottom line is with PD's the therapist has to "really know what they're doing." She doesn't treat PD's but she knows some who successfully do so.

[Highlander]

This is great to hear. I’m both happy for you and jealous!

My ex’s was totally the result of her BPD mom and over-the-top NPD dad.

Hi DogMan75,

Almost the same, my MIL BPD & NPD and FIL NPD.  I am happy that DH has recovered but the journey was hell and I have PTSD as a result.  Some of it was from my exposure to many years of my H's BPD but I reckon most of it was the exposure to his toxic parents.  It was very difficult having his family blame me for giving their son BPD at age 30, when I knew he had been self harming for 20 years before I met him.

They called me up on the night I risked my life to save their son and whilst he was still in the ambulance, only to abuse me with their 'revelation'.  When I was told later about BPD and in my H's case, that the people pointing the finger at me were instead the perpetrators, I wanted to scream out the truth but didn't because it would have created too much turmoil in my H's life and thus literally would have risked his life at the time.  So I sat back, knowing what they were saying behind my back whilst they worked on my SIL who once adored me but now hated me and was using the same intergenerational parenting techniques on her own children. 

Then SIL died, leaving behind an orphaned 2.5 year old, which her alcoholic and physically abusive alcoholic NPD grandfather is now raising and we are not because of more lies and deceit from my FIL with the help of the MIL.  I'm now 43 and have no children of my own as a result.  I was 39 when H  officially recovered and I was not going to bring a child into the world while H was soo sick.  Once he recovered, my last chance of reproductive years was spent fighting the FIL for custody of the child until we ran out of money and the MIL stabbed us in the back. 

Very painful years, but I kept having to remind myself, if this hurts me, how much would it be hurting my dear H!  And it did but he pushed through the pain in healthy ways and if ever he was to relapse from BPD, it would have been then. We have nothing to do with them now, total NC, but the pain is still there.  Would I do it all again?  For my H's health – Yes! 

But I guess I'm saying that if I DIDN'T see any improved progress with my H whilst he was in T, I probably would have had no choice but to weigh up not only H's illhealth but his toxic parents too and even though, thanks to advice from H's T's, we lived 100's miles from them, they still dug their claws deep into our lives and given what I know now, I may well have made a different choice, again ONLY if H wasn't showing signs of recovery during T. 

This article describes recovery process pretty well when BPD is treated as ptsd  www.pete-walker.com/fAQsComplexPTSD.html 

When I was getting to know my ex, his conduct, fear and skittishness, and an expectation that at any moment I might go off on him or shame him for something, convinced me that he suffered from ptsd. My T affirmed that in fact the dx of BPD is sliding in the direction of ptsd. Therapy that centers only on DBT and the like is ineffective according to her, and my observations are consistent with this. The underlying trauma(s) must be addressed because that's what the flashbacks are about, and they can be triggered by something as benign as our facial expression when we're vexed or frustrated. My T says, bottom line is with PD's the therapist has to "really know what they're doing." She doesn't treat PD's but she knows some who successfully do so.

Hi Spacecadet, I couldn't download that page but I also couldn't agree more.  DBT was only part of my H's T.  As I said, we also had combined T and there were times where we also went solo.  Much of my H's healing was understanding that his parents are toxic as well as their parenting.  He had to find out that it was not possible for his parents to love him unconditionally and that was never H's fault.  He also had to learn that there is unconditional love out there and in H's case that comes from me and my FOO of which have adopted him, not only as a 'son in law' but as a 'son' too.  It's still hard on him - hence he still suffers from severe depression but thankfully he no longer has BPD.

[teapay]

I agree that DBT is often only part of the recovery.  It helped my W self regulate and cease several extremely destructive behaviors.  She benefited afterward from trauma related therapy and greatly from IFS on issues related to a weak sense of self.  The DBT helped her regulate enough to get through some of the other therapies which can be triggering.  It still took years for her to get moderately functional, but she still hasn't been able to hold long term, full time employment or manage her finances or health well.  My biggest beef with her was the extremely destructive behaviors because they greatly effected the larger family.  Once those got tamed with the DBT, most of the worse was gone and her stuff mostly effected just her.  I had already set things up to protect me and the larger family and didn't need her to much.

[CautiousHope]

I would like to chime in on this from a couple of angles.

To begin, I'd like to mention that PTSD being comorbid with BPD is extremely common as most people with BPD have a trauma history. Developmental trauma, in particular, presents in a way that looks exactly like PTSD and often like BPD. BPD and PTSD affect the same regions of the brain and the same things happen during a flashback as what happens when a pwBPD dysregulates. I know this, because I have (C)PTSD myself. In the US (where I live), that means I am diagnosed with PTSD and borderline "traits" (PDNOS), because it caused damage to my self-concept and as a result I struggle with negative shame spirals (some of you might recognize this behavior in your BPD loved ones.) However, I do not have abandonment issues, I don't struggle with interpersonal relationships (I was with my husband for 13 years and, though we are currently separated for unrelated reasons, he will still swear up and down that I was a great wife and that he was very happy with me all of those years, so I'm not just delusional here, ), no splitting or impulsivity, etc. But, from where I sit, it is extremely clear to me that the hypotheses that BPD and PTSD are closely related seem impossible to deny as plausible. It took me a while to learn about BPD and understand it, but as a person who is basically on the cusp between the two, there is too much overlap for me to ignore. For those of us who have chronic PTSD/PTSD from complex childhood trauma, it is about retraining our nervous systems to respond differently to stimuli and any therapist who treats people with PTSD will start with establishing safety in order to do that. We can not fully heal when we are triggered or still being traumatized. I believe the same is true with BPD. It's not impossible to overcome or untreatable, but it requires bringing them out of a chronically triggered state where they can begin to challenge those automatic fear responses. This becomes incredibly difficult to do because BPD is primarily triggered by close relationships and by interactions with their closest loved ones doing perfectly natural things and so it's difficult to bring them back to a more centered state. Especially if we have been unintentionally triggering them for years on end, which means that not only do we have to stop triggering them, we have to regain their trust.

So, viewing things from that angle, I have slowly begun walking my friend out from his deeply triggered state over the course of the past 10 months or so by using my personal understanding of what it is like to be triggered and the tools that I have learned here and elsewhere on the internet. (I think it's important to note here that I only offer help or advice when he asks for my help or says he doesn't know what to do, otherwise I really just focus on not being invalidating, not triggering him, and holding firm in my boundaries as a general rule.)

When we met, he was splitting almost daily, drinking heavily, deeply depressed, suicidal, angry and bitter, behaving impulsively and recklessly on a regular basis, he was in a pretty bad state. I would guess that he has some NPD traits as well as the BPD, so I had more or less assumed that he would always be stuck in this angry, projecting mode, but I have been surprised to consistently see otherwise over time. Without therapy or admitting to having BPD (though he will call it his "anxiety" or "overthinking", he is like a different person today. The best part is that he sees this about himself and is proud of his own progress, he says he feels like a completely different person than he was a year ago. He is able to self-soothe, to catch some of his black and white thinking, he talks about his feelings in a constructive way (passive-aggressiveness is still there, but it's on a much smaller scale.) He focuses on managing his anxiety, does deep breathing exercises, he holds himself accountable for his mistakes and he apologizes sincerely when he is hurtful. He is constantly striving for self-improvement and he has become introspective. We are able to discuss conflict and work toward resolution much of the time, whereas before he was triggered so rapidly and so intensely that he couldn't think straight to get to a rational point, but he is learning to balance his emotional thoughts with his logical thoughts much better. His anger is much more controlled. When I met him he was experiencing dissociative rages, now he takes a walk or some deep breaths, gives himself some space to calm down. Again, this is all without therapy and over the course of less than a year. He is not cured by any means, but I think there is something incredibly important to be said for the differences between his ability to regulate himself when he is triggered vs when he is not in a constant state of feeling like the earth is being pulled out from under him. Frankly, I think DBT will help with a lot of the behavioral and interpersonal stuff -they're skills that anyone can benefit from, not just those with BPD, but especially people with outward acting BPD who struggle interpersonally. But that internal experience will not be treated with DBT. For most, it is trauma related and I believe that as with PTSD, it requires an established sense of safety before they can begin to heal it.

Whether or not BPD can be "cured" is probably up for debate, it can probably be managed. But it requires the right environment and the right understanding. The internet is full of people who have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other with the proper tools and support, so it certainly seems that it can be put into remission.

[teapay]

There was a time when my W was at her worse and stuck that I was deeply skeptical of cures and such. Over time I definitely came to believe folks with BPD, cptsd or ptsd can recover and function normally in society and in relationships like any other relatively health person.  It does them a great disservice by thinking otherwise.  It takes alot of self honesty, self accountability and willingness to change behaviors and thinking patterns in the face of emotional turmoil on their part to recovery, but it is not impossible.  Other people do this everyday and it is something that can be adopted, learned, practiced and lived out.  It does them a great disservice to not hold them accountable, like most strangers would do.  It does them and the people around them a disservice to let them stay unchallenged in their dysfunctional state, sadly enabling them to stay like that and making every conceivable excuse for them and for enabling them.

[waverider]

My T has told me that the term borderline is on its way out. It's increasingly being viewed as complex PTSD, and the 'cure' is processing the childhood traumas.

I have come across this too and do not agree with it. pwBPD tend to react to impulses/obsessions/ triggers from the now and then try to come up with "excuses" for it to blame something/someone else. Suggest CPTSD to them and they will then simply blame some previous earlier "abuse/abandonment" as the reason it is not their fault. While in reality the bad experience they are pointing to was in fact a consequence of their already existing BPD traits.

pwBPD go into therapy with an agenda, not to fix themselves but rather validate that "someone else" caused it. This is what sends therapist chasing red herrings and getting too wrapped up in the distorted recollections of abuse/abandonment that the pwBPD spins. Once a therapist start to validate it by pointing to early childhood trama the pwBPD revels in this and starts to embellish. This can lead to some quite inaccurate claims of historical abuse.

pwBPD are experts at kicking dogs then claiming to be traumatised by dogs barking.

CPTD involves constant flashbacks/reminders/paranoia about a certain period in their lives. It totally discounts any genetic link. Generally it does not include much abandonment issues. BPD is far more random and they bring up issues from all periods in their lives, not just one period, and they typically have an overriding fear of abandonment. There is belief that genetics can play a part, but it is hard to prove as where there are genetics then it is likely the parent they inherited them from likely went on to have a developmental influence. So its hard to separate.

Think of BPD as a different thinking language. They can learn to speak a new language to function better, but the new language will always be their second language, they will still think in their native language, they will keep an accent and in times of stress revert to it.

[waverider]

A further point worth considering is that our personality evolves as a consequence of our life experiences. If you could suddenly "cure" someone of BPD thinking they are still left with a library of dysfunctional experiences and a lack or "normal" experience. This will leave a scar or void in their personality evolution. This is maturation of our personality, this is where a 'recovered" pwBPD is having to play catch up.

[babyducks]

CPTD involves constant flashbacks/reminders/paranoia about a certain period in their lives. It totally discounts any genetic link. Generally it does not include much abandonment issues. BPD is far more random and they bring up issues from all periods in their lives, not just one period, and they typically have an overriding fear of abandonment. There is belief that genetics can play a part, but it is hard to prove as where there are genetics then it is likely the parent they inherited them from likely went on to have a developmental influence. So its hard to separate.

I find I am with waverider.    CPTSD and BPD can overlap to be sure.    And unstable sense of self or a fragile sense of self does not seem to play a role in CPTSD.   I would be very reluctant to say they are the same illness.

[spacecadet]

It's good to read of these success stories. This board mostly has people whose r/s have fallen apart and it's understandably full of heartbreak, yet it must be encouraging to those still in r/s with BP that there are paths to wholeness and longevity. My hat's off to all of you who've made the effort, regardless of outcome which is not ours alone to determine.

I do agree, the most essential ingredients in the pw/B must be self-awareness and commitment to healing, and in the non strength and flexibility. From there spring the behaviors that incrementally smooth out the road going forward. This is my observation only, not speaking from experience. 

[Highlander]

Waverider, there are some things you said, that in my opinion, I have to respectfully disagree with because, to me, they are rather broad when you address the reactions/behaviours of pwBPD and I don't believe that it should be so broad.

pwBPD tend to react to impulses/obsessions/ triggers from the now and then try to come up with "excuses" for it to blame something/someone else. 

First part “yes”, H would “react to impulses/obsessions/triggers from the now” but unless H was in the midst of a BPD rage, where, at times blame and hurt were cast outwards, more than 99.99% of the time, my H blamed himself for his behaviours. 

Suggest CPTSD to them and they will then simply blame some previous earlier "abuse/abandonment" as the reason it is not their fault.

When finally it disclosed to us that H had BPD, the acronym CPTSD, didn't come up exactly but his assessors did say words to the effect:

“H has BPD and there's no doubt his mother has some form of BPD too and his father is toxic as well.  He was born into a family that did not have the capacity to train his little childhood brain to deal with his emotions effectively, so he mirrors both his father's and mother's coping mechanisms when he's exposed to stressful circumstances.  Seeing he wasn't born with it, he can re-wire his brain through psychotherapy to approach stressful situations in life much more effectively and if he works hard, he can make a full recovery and live a normal life”. 

I'm aware there are many cases out there whereby the parents aren't the 'environment' that caused BPD but I have witnessed the benefits of the T's being upfront with us making the dx easy to understand and the T much less daunting to tackle. 

H cried with tears of relief, squeezed my hand and said “It all makes sense. I just thought I was an evil person”. 

Recovery began the day of dx when H understood he was not an evil person and instead clinically suffering from a disorder in which his behaviours were explained as being part of it and that it was not his fault why he had BPD.

When he had 'set backs', even loaded with this knowledge, he never blamed his childhood abuse but instead himself for not implementing his DBT skills and his mindfulness.

My H never went:

into therapy with an agenda, not to fix themselves but rather validate that "someone else" caused it.

My H embraced therapy.   Most of the time, he always wanted me to talk them alone first to tell them what he had done so he didn't have to relive it so he could focus the skills relating to his behaviour.

However, I can see why some pwBPD may take this approach, especially if, unlike my H, they prone to manipulate and lie.

To me, whether my H was a liar and manipulator seemed to be very important to the T's during H's assessment process and subsequent dx:


Assessment lasted hours and I was not allowed in the room with him, then I was ushered into another room without being allowed to see him and then I was interrogated. It felt like we were two criminals being kept apart in a police station. 

Eventually, it was explained to me “we had to speak with you separately to determine whether or not your husband was telling the truth”.  “My H is not a liar” I said.  “We know and that is why we are going to give it to you straight” they said and proceeded with giving the truth, no holds barred, link to childhood and all.

It's possible that if they concluded H was a liar and manipulator, than they could assume that he may respond to dx and T exactly the way Waverider has described how some (and maybe many)  pwBPD approach it. 

But knowing, he wasn't, it became clear that they had decided on a different approach – the truth.

This is why I don't believe that a comment like the following is valid in all cases:

Once a therapist start to validate it by pointing to early childhood trama the pwBPD revels in this and starts to embellish. This can lead to some quite inaccurate claims of historical abuse.

I was present for much of H's therapy.  His  T's, all validated my H's childhood trauma.  In H's case,  his mother's phone calls had been recognised as the trigger to my H's self harm.  After one phone call, he almost lost his life. 

It was clear that his mother was playing the same nasty games with him that she had been playing all his life, so in order to save his life, he needed to gain an understanding of her manipulation strategies so he could see them for what they were and not react.

Although I do note here that Waverider has used the word 'can' when noting “This can lead to... .”, which suggests that it may not always be the case that pwBPD fabricate historical abuse. 

My H never embellished, nor created inaccurate claims.  I know this as fact as not only is he a truthful person, but these stories were confirmed with other family members.

Again, what Waverider says may be how some pwBPD react to such T but this is not the case for all pwBPD. 

I can actually see that if the T's did NOT validate his childhood trauma, then seeing it was true, it could have had a devastating effect - he would have likely walked away from T, meaning he could of died but instead he reached full recovery.

Leading to the following comment:

Think of BPD as a different thinking language. They can learn to speak a new language to function better, but the new language will always be their second language, they will still think in their native language, they will keep an accent and in times of stress revert to it.

I won't go into the trauma that we we were both exposed to over the 2 years AFTER H's official recovery, but H's Psychiatrist highly complimented my H, noting that even the most healthiest of people could not have withstood what we went through during those 2 years without completely crumbling to pieces, yet H, didn't stumble.  My experience says that it is possible, in times of stress, for people that used to have BPD not to revert back to it. 

Even if his recovery was against the odds, he did recover and his H's doctors believe it too.  So much so they have signed documents for the courts that state that small children are not at risk to being exposed to trauma in the full time care of my H, even though they knew that there would be documents presented to the courts from a few years prior that noted some pretty horrific things that my H had done during his BPD past.

And the last comment:

A further point worth considering is that our personality evolves as a consequence of our life experiences. If you could suddenly "cure" someone of BPD thinking they are still left with a library of dysfunctional experiences and a lack or "normal" experience. This will leave a scar or void in their personality evolution. This is maturation of our personality, this is where a 'recovered" pwBPD is having to play catch up.

I agree but my H is a very intelligent cookie and has managed to succeed in 'playing catch up'.  His 40 years of abuse has been well balanced out with 12 years of extreme and unconditional love and support from myself and my family, which he said, we inspired him to be more like ourselves.

I agree that BPD and CPTSD can be closely linked but not the same.  My H used to have BPD but now doesn't. His current diagnosis is depression and PTSD.  All relating to his childhood, or the treatment by his parents in his adulthood.  Its highly likely what they mean is he now has to tackle CPTSD.

In regards to genetics.  After finding out about the BPD genetic link, I was worried and raised whether we should tell H's daughter's mother about his BPD dx.  H was heavily questioned about the parenting his daughter received by her mother and himself (big tick) and if she had any contact with her Paternal GrandParents (another big tick – they've never acknowledged her, nor have any contact with her whatsoever). 

They concluded we shouldn't disclose the BPD dx because although, like her father, she may well be genetically susceptible to being a 'sensitive child', she didn't have the 'environment' to cause any alarm of high risk. 

My SIL's children were a different story.  There are big concerns there because they were recognised by their grandparents and spent time with them.  Also SIL was raising her children with the same toxic intergenerational parenting techniques and now she has passed, FIL is now raising them the same way he raised his son.

The kids are now getting older, my stepdaughter is now almost 15 and a mentally sound child.  My nephew is now 14 and is now portraying some very worrying behaviours, much like his Uncle had when he was his age.

I believe there are pwBPD that benefit from knowing the link between childhood trauma and their BPD dx, but it depends on the sufferer and if they portray manipulating behaviour and are prone to distorting the facts, then it may not be so beneficial.

[waverider]

I think your husbands therapists did a good job of checking on your husbands ability to recount truthfully and without embellishment. However most dont do this and start down the path of documenting the past history without validating this first. This is what corrupts the therapy for many.

Blame shifting is very high on the traits for many pwBPD, and it is easy to often hand them an opening on a platter. Historical facts are very hard to establish in many cases as the only version available is the pwBPDs.

Truths should always be used, but it is important to only stick to known truths, and be careful not to be too quick to attribute causes to what are really symptoms. eg Did the BPD behaviour lead to the drama that caused trauma, that fed back into the Disorder, or did the trauma trigger the BPD/CPTSD?

My wife currently has 3 separate major (and unrelated) issues that she can convincingly point to as early traumatic triggers. The only common factor is herself and her behaviour.

It is undoubtedly your husband ownership of his problems that led to his successful recovery. This complete ownership and honesty is unfortunately beyond many, as it can can overload them with guilt. Hence the recourse to avoidance.

[walkinthepark247]

It is undoubtedly your husband ownership of his problems that led to his successful recovery. This complete ownership and honesty is unfortunately beyond many, as it can can overload them with guilt. Hence the recourse to avoidance.

Agreed. I was recently reading some statistic on the success of marriages for pwBPD. What struck me the most about the statistic is that it was fundamentally skewed because it only considered people who had a formal diagnosis of BPD. There are many, many people with BPD traits who have never been diagnosed. Those people wouldn't fall under any statistic because it would be impossible to monitor the study. It's much easier for these types of people to get info on those who a) have a diagnosis of BPD and b) are also regularly seeking help. How else would anyone know to gather the info to produce the statistic? Bottom line: Don't base your own experience and decision-making on some article you read about BPD stats.

I haven't ever read an article regarding a BPD "cure". I'm not saying there isn't one. Even the leading intensive programs for BPD don't speak of a "cure". It's kind of like my father's severe heart problems, IMHO. He can take steps to better his situation, but he must always be mindful that he has a heart condition.

[Highlander]

Hi Waverider,  

So I guess we can agree, that if T's adequately assess the pwBPD to see if they are prone to embellishment then they could then be in the position to tell the truthful patients the truth as well as validate their traumatic childhood.

Hi Walk In The Park247,

I couldn't agree more about the stats.  Official statistics are obscured by assessing only people dx with BPD.  Many of these people are like my H, having been dx only because they end up in the emergency ward from severe SH episodes.  But not all pwBPD do SH, or SH to the extent that they require hospitalisation leading some sort of acceptence that there is something wrong with them as well as dx and treatment.

I too have looked into the stats of how many pwBPD have co-ocurring NPD.

Studies found that 16% of people who were receiving treatment for BPD had co-occurrence NPD.

Whereas, when they sampled the population, 39% of pwBPD also had NPD.

These results are significantly different and to me, I am more inclined to believe the results of the sampled population for obvious reasons - when taking in NPD traits, its not difficult to understand why pwBPD as well as NPD don't seek out treatment.