Not needed or wanted but...

[Woodchuck]

One of the things that I struggle with the most is constantly being told that she doesn't need me, that she does not want me to do anything for me, that she doesn't expect anything from me and that I am never there for her.  I could fill up the entire post with ways that I try to be there for her.  Am I perfect at it?  Nope, but I do know that I give it my best shot.  The part that really bothers me though is that she will say all these things on a regular basis and then shortly afterwards ask me to do something for her.  My initial thought is to respond with throwing her words back at her, telling her that she can do it, she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her etc. but that seems counter productive, not to mention unloving and not a great example for our children.  If I continue to do everything she requests though, I feel like I am enabling her and her words are destroying me.  I have attempted to talk to her about how much those words hurt and her response is that she is not responsible for my feelings, I am free to feel however I choose. 

[Notwendy]

This is a tough situation. It may help to read about the Karpman triangle. Your wife may perceive things from victim mode, and when you try to show her that you do things for her - you are taking rescuer mode. The triangle is dysfunctional and when you try to do that, it doesn't work to change her thinking. Then you feel like a victim. You are correct that throwing her words back at her is perpetuation drama.

She's correct when she says she isn't responsible for your feelings, and also you are not responsible for hers. Remember this when she gets into the "I don't need you" dialogue. If she feels this way but it isn't true, it's her feelings talking. To a pwBPD, feelings are facts.

The idea of a pink elephant may be helpful. If she called you a pink elephant, would you feel hurt? Probably not because you are quite certain that you are not a pink elephant. You would recognize that this is distorted thinking and also, she can truly believe you are a pink elephant, but her thinking doesn't make you one.

What she thinks and feels does not have to define you. Stop looking to her for affirmation. ( yes , it would be nice to have affirmation from your spouse, but she may not be able to give you that). Look to yourself for the truth- you know what it is. . If she asks you to do something- do you want to do it? Are you not really wanting to do it but you are willing to do it? Do you absolutely not want to do it and if you do, you will feel resentful? For the first two situations- do the task you either want or are willing to do. Some tasks have to be done- get food, pick up the kids, but if it is something she is capable of doing herself, you can reply " Honey, I am not available to do this, it would be better for me if you did it".

And wait for the poop to hit the fan. Because it is a change. Keep in mind the extinction burst. She may pitch a fit ,but being consistent with saying yes when you are willing to, and also saying no when it is honest can help break this cycle.

[Woodchuck]

Notwendy -
Thank you for the great insight.  I will have to look into the Karpman triangle as I believe it does sound very close to what we are experiencing.  I do understand that we are all responsible for our own feelings.  The aspect that is difficult is the constant demands/accusations regarding empathy and understanding towards her feelings and how her feelings and her reality is what is real and what matters.  I don't know how many times just in the last few weeks she has referred to my reality being wrong or delusional.

I understand that what she thinks and feels does not have to define me, however it is so difficult to make that happen.  I know the truth but I hear her 'truths' so often and she is so forceful with them that I start to question myself. 
As far as doing things for her, there is nothing that I "don't want to do".  I think is where that triangle comes into play though.  I am not trying to be a rescuer but I can see how a victim may perceive it that way.  I do things simply to try to express love and care for her.  It is more difficult for me to try to not do things (dishes, laundry, picking up around the house, grocery shopping etc) than it is for me to actually do them.  I guess part of it is my personality and part of it is me wanting to try to do the right thing and demonstrate to my children how to be loving.  A good example would be last week when I let her know that one of her headlights was out.  I asked her if she wanted me to fix it for her.  She initially ignored me but after asking a few times, she told me she would take care of it.  I know full well that she doesn't have a clue how to change the headlights and I believe that she would use the car without headlights and then blame me for them not working despite having told her about the issue.  This combined with not wanting her to be out on the road and not being able to see and possibly getting pulled over for a ticket pushed me to just go ahead and fix the lights.  Maybe I shouldn't have, I don't know.  There are plenty of things that she can do herself but she does not like to do and I feel compelled to help out to take part of the burden.  It seems to me though that she would rather do the things she doesn't like doing and voice how much she doesn't like doing them and hear 'appreciation' for doing those things.  I guess I have a hard time with that as it doesn't make sense to prefer that over having someone take care of things that you don't care for doing.  It seems counterproductive to not take advantage of someone trying help with the things that you don't like doing.  The fact that I don't mind doing any of the house work and actually enjoy a bit of it seems to compound the problem as it is seems that she wants me to dislike it all as well.  I can see how I am being an enabler but I guess I am unsure about where to draw the line between being an enabler and being or at least attempting to be a loving and caring spouse.  She is gone this week with the kids to a camp and I have purposed to not take care of anything around the house other than what I use.  I am not doing it out of spite but rather I guess practicing not enabling.  I fully expect to hear about the dishes that she left in the sink or her bed that she left unmade or the laundry that she left unfolded.  It will validate to her that I don't help out or that she does everything or something along those lines but if I do take care of all those things then I hear that she didn't need me to do any of it or expect me to do any of it. 

This is a tough situation. It may help to read about the Karpman triangle. Your wife may perceive things from victim mode, and when you try to show her that you do things for her - you are taking rescuer mode. The triangle is dysfunctional and when you try to do that, it doesn't work to change her thinking. Then you feel like a victim. You are correct that throwing her words back at her is perpetuation drama.

She's correct when she says she isn't responsible for your feelings, and also you are not responsible for hers. Remember this when she gets into the "I don't need you" dialogue. If she feels this way but it isn't true, it's her feelings talking. To a pwBPD, feelings are facts.

The idea of a pink elephant may be helpful. If she called you a pink elephant, would you feel hurt? Probably not because you are quite certain that you are not a pink elephant. You would recognize that this is distorted thinking and also, she can truly believe you are a pink elephant, but her thinking doesn't make you one.

What she thinks and feels does not have to define you. Stop looking to her for affirmation. ( yes , it would be nice to have affirmation from your spouse, but she may not be able to give you that). Look to yourself for the truth- you know what it is. . If she asks you to do something- do you want to do it? Are you not really wanting to do it but you are willing to do it? Do you absolutely not want to do it and if you do, you will feel resentful? For the first two situations- do the task you either want or are willing to do. Some tasks have to be done- get food, pick up the kids, but if it is something she is capable of doing herself, you can reply " Honey, I am not available to do this, it would be better for me if you did it".

And wait for the poop to hit the fan. Because it is a change. Keep in mind the extinction burst. She may pitch a fit ,but being consistent with saying yes when you are willing to, and also saying no when it is honest can help break this cycle.

[Enabler]

I am not trying to be a rescuer but I can see how a victim may perceive it that way.  I do things simply to try to express love and care for her.  It is more difficult for me to try to not do things (dishes, laundry, picking up around the house, grocery shopping etc) than it is for me to actually do them.  I guess part of it is my personality and part of it is me wanting to try to do the right thing and demonstrate to my children how to be loving. 

Nicely put Woodchuck. I'm with you on that one. I love to potter along doing this that and the other. I also believe there's an element of being trained in a state of chaos... .you're damned if you don't but you're encroaching on their role if you do. My W gains a sense of significance to bolster her otherwise flagging ego at the expense of encouraging you to do things. I believe it's the struggle between a messed up sense of guilt / gratitude and a intolerance to stress.

An example... .the washing isn't done and she needed some piece of clothing, that's stressful especially when compromising by wearing something else is untenable... .emotional electric shock... .she can't be blamed as that would make her wrong (in the whole) so someone best be responsible... .you. SO... .now you do the washing attentively to avoid being shouted at for something you never actually perceived was your fault but you want to avoid conflict at all costs so you do it like a good boy... .but she's calmed down now and isn't stressed, but she now gets a feeling of appreciation / gratitude... .but that feeling doesn't come across as a warm fuzzy he did a nice thing feeling, it comes across as a debt, a guilty feeling... .YOU GAVE HER THE GUILTY FEELING... .so to avoid the feeling of gratitude and appreciation she must denigrate your efforts and find wrong and suffering in your actions. So now, she no longer has to feel guilt which is painful for her, she gets to feel like you owe her because you messed up.

I changed the oil on my W's car this weekend... .she ignored me for the pleasure. I expected nothing less... .but now I actually expect nothing more and did it because I wanted to do it.

"No good deed goes unpunished", said someone

[Woodchuck]

Nicely put Woodchuck. I'm with you on that one. I love to potter along doing this that and the other. I also believe there's an element of being trained in a state of chaos... .you're damned if you don't but you're encroaching on their role if you do. My W gains a sense of significance to bolster her otherwise flagging ego at the expense of encouraging you to do things. I believe it's the struggle between a messed up sense of guilt / gratitude and a intolerance to stress.

An example... .the washing isn't done and she needed some piece of clothing, that's stressful especially when compromising by wearing something else is untenable... .emotional electric shock... .she can't be blamed as that would make her wrong (in the whole) so someone best be responsible... .you. SO... .now you do the washing attentively to avoid being shouted at for something you never actually perceived was your fault but you want to avoid conflict at all costs so you do it like a good boy... .but she's calmed down now and isn't stressed, but she now gets a feeling of appreciation / gratitude... .but that feeling doesn't come across as a warm fuzzy he did a nice thing feeling, it comes across as a debt, a guilty feeling... .YOU GAVE HER THE GUILTY FEELING... .so to avoid the feeling of gratitude and appreciation she must denigrate your efforts and find wrong and suffering in your actions. So now, she no longer has to feel guilt which is painful for her, she gets to feel like you owe her because you messed up.

I changed the oil on my W's car this weekend... .she ignored me for the pleasure. I expected nothing less... .but now I actually expect nothing more and did it because I wanted to do it.

"No good deed goes unpunished", said someone

Enabler -
That is pretty spot on to how things go.  She states quite often that the only reason that I do things is to get something in return.  This is really not the case at all.  Would I like her to do something in return at times?  Of course, but I don't expect her to and it is not the reason behind doing what I either do or don't do.  A prime example is a job that she got about 6 months ago.  It was her 'dream job'.  She had wanted to do it for the last 18 years but unable to due to wanting to be a stay at home mom.  With the kids now in middle school/high school, I was excited that she could focus on what she wanted to do.  It meant long days for everyone.  She was working 12+ hours a day and I had been working 12+ hours a day.  I did everything I could to be supportive from taking on as much of the responsibilities around the house as I could on top of my job but also attempting to be encouraging and supportive when she told me she was overwhelmed at it was too much.  She quit after 6 weeks due to it 'being too much' and blamed me for pushing her to hard and doing it for selfish reasons.  She couldn't tell me what those selfish reasons were but I was to blame.  She said that I should have just listened to her when she first said it was too much.  I fear that if I would have done that, she would have accused me of not being supportive and not wanting her to work.  All I really want/wanted was her to be happy.  She spent many years giving up a lot of things to take care of the kids and educate them, I felt like she more than deserved to do what she had put on hold but yet again, I didn't do it right.
Another more regular example is with laundry and dishes.  She has particular settings on the washing machine that she claims work best.  Out of respect for her, I use those settings even though I notice no difference.  On the flip side, I have identified a few items (a few knives and containers) that should be hand washed and communicated that to her.  Her response is that if the stuff gets used, it goes in the dishwasher unless I catch it before she does.  She will not hand wash anything except for one pan that she believes should not be put in the dishwasher.  If I put the pan in the dishwasher, she would have a royal fit but could care less about what I think is important. 
The same thing has happened with our children's education.  I have voiced concerns about it being too much for her for the past several years as she does not have a lot of patience with the kids and tends to resort to yelling when they get something wrong etc.  She has never taken this well as she believes it is an attack on her.  Her response until a couple years ago was that if I wanted to put them in school, I could go enroll them and make sure they get to school etc.  She knows that doing that is physically impossible as I leave for work at 4:30AM.  As she has continued to homeschool the kids, I helped out wherever I could and took on helping with subjects she didn't like.  Her response was that I was not supportive and didn't appreciate her and all she did.  The kids are both going to be in school next year.  She claims it is due to my lack of support and appreciation but I believe she is just not able to keep up with many of the subjects and that is completely understandable, at least in my opinion.  Her mentality with the kids is that she gets final say on what happens with them since she spends the most time with them. 

[Enabler]

Wow, homeschooling... .now that’s a combo not made in heaven. Doing homework with kids is hard enough let alone homeschooling and having emotional dysregulation temdencies. I’ve heard many many stories about pwBPD pushing for dream jobs then bailing only to blame the person the person that encouraged and supported them in the first place. Keeping a “coach” but neutral stance in these situations is imperative. I have a friend and his W is very emotionally sensitive. They call it post natal depression but the kids are 10 and she suffered depression since her teenage years... .so if you ask me he’s burying his head in the sand... .anyway. She recently completed a course, the whole course was filled with tears and drama and depression and shouting at the kids and claims that she couldn’t do it and it was all his fault for pushing her into it... .she got a 1st. The friend won’t heed any advice about taking a neutral role and now wonders why he’s painted as a demon. Doing the ‘right’ thing isn’t necessarily the ‘right’ thing with an emotionally sensitive person.

All these comments, all these things that she takes umbridge over, just don’t respond, don’t give them a moments consideration. If you can find something to validate, validate... .if there’s nothing, move on. Teach her that you don’t play games, you don’t join in her conflict.

[Woodchuck]

Wow, homeschooling... .now that’s a combo not made in heaven. Doing homework with kids is hard enough let alone homeschooling and having emotional dysregulation temdencies. I’ve heard many many stories about pwBPD pushing for dream jobs then bailing only to blame the person the person that encouraged and supported them in the first place. Keeping a “coach” but neutral stance in these situations is imperative. I have a friend and his W is very emotionally sensitive. They call it post natal depression but the kids are 10 and she suffered depression since her teenage years... .so if you ask me he’s burying his head in the sand... .anyway. She recently completed a course, the whole course was filled with tears and drama and depression and shouting at the kids and claims that she couldn’t do it and it was all his fault for pushing her into it... .she got a 1st. The friend won’t heed any advice about taking a neutral role and now wonders why he’s painted as a demon. Doing the ‘right’ thing isn’t necessarily the ‘right’ thing with an emotionally sensitive person.

All these comments, all these things that she takes umbridge over, just don’t respond, don’t give them a moments consideration. If you can find something to validate, validate... .if there’s nothing, move on. Teach her that you don’t play games, you don’t join in her conflict.

It (homeschooling) has most definitely not been ideal.  She did an amazing job teaching the kids to read.  She had a real passion for that and enjoyed it but things went south after that.  It is heartbreaking to hear the constant conflict between her and the kids battling over school.  It has not been a good learning environment at all but it has given her the control that she wants.  She agree to put our daughter in school 2 years ago (for 4th grade) and decided that she could do a better job at home and pulled her out the following year to resume homeschooling.  To be clear, I am not anti homeschool at all.  Both my wife and I were homeschooled all the way from 1st-12th grade.  I strongly believe though that it has to be something that the person doing the teaching has a passion about and overall enjoys.  From what I have seen, there is little she enjoys about it but it is a sense of control she can maintain.  The constant yelling and threats of punishment are very concerning but not to the point that I feel like I need to get child/social services involved.  She constantly threatens to spank them if they don't obey but the last time that she actually followed through with a threat to spank either of them is years in the past.  She believes that she does not enjoy homeschooling them because she does not feel like she gets any support or appreciation for what she does.  I am sure there are things I could do to be more supportive but I am not sure what they are and when I ask her what I can say or do, she tells me that I need to figure it out, that she does not want to be married to a robot where she has to tell them everything to do.

[Cat Familiar]

So you are very willing to help with a variety of home tasks and she not only doesn’t show appreciation for your efforts, she also becomes upset for two reasons: 1. You don’t mind doing the work and she does  2. She thinks you’re only doing it so that she’s indebted to you.

You encouraged her and supported her in taking what she perceived as her longtime dream job, yet once she experienced working at it, she wanted to quit almost immediately and then blamed you for her taking the job in the first place.

She wanted to homeschool the kids and enjoyed it at the beginning, but at this point has little patience for teaching them, gets frustrated and takes out her resentment on both them and you.

All these examples show the same pattern: she resents what she is doing and blames others as well as resenting any help you offer her.

This is a tough spot for you, to be sure. And it certainly seems futile to expect acknowledgment, appreciation or understanding from her.

It sounds like you will be upsetting the status quo by leaving her messes to clean up herself.

I’ve done the same with my husband and I’m starting to see improvement in that he’s becoming more responsible.

I’m questioning the advisability of leaving her dishes in the sink for the week she’s gone. She might interpret that as passive aggressive on your part and have a blow up when she returns. To me, the unmade bed and laundry might be less triggering.

[Enabler]

What if being kind was just okay?

I guess the question is, what motivates you to do tasks? (I initially typed “help”, but actually it’s partly your needs as well... .you want clean clothes, you want clean dishes... .I for one don’t like the look of mess and hate bits on our stone floor... .so guess what, I charm it and do the dishes. I don’t ‘expect’ ANYTHING in response from W. I don’t expect praise and I don’t expect critisism. I now ignore the latter.) sorry, that was a long bracket!

If you are doing things to gain favour, accept you’re not going to get it. If you’re doing things because you want them done... .own it and
Expect nothing.

Taking the blame for her choices... .don’t validate that. Validating it’s tough to home school... .because it is. You have to be a special Kim’s of character to e both teacher and mom.

[Woodchuck]

So you are very willing to help with a variety of home tasks and she not only doesn’t show appreciation for your efforts, she also becomes upset for two reasons: 1. You don’t mind doing the work and she does  2. She thinks you’re only doing it so that she’s indebted to you.

You encouraged her and supported her in taking what she perceived as her longtime dream job, yet once she experienced working at it, she wanted to quit almost immediately and then blamed you for her taking the job in the first place.

She wanted to homeschool the kids and enjoyed it at the beginning, but at this point has little patience for teaching them, gets frustrated and takes out her resentment on both them and you.

All these examples show the same pattern: she resents what she is doing and blames others as well as resenting any help you offer her.

This is a tough spot for you, to be sure. And it certainly seems futile to expect acknowledgment, appreciation or understanding from her.

It sounds like you will be upsetting the status quo by leaving her messes to clean up herself.

I’ve done the same with my husband and I’m starting to see improvement in that he’s becoming more responsible.

I’m questioning the advisability of leaving her dishes in the sink for the week she’s gone. She might interpret that as passive aggressive on your part and have a blow up when she returns. To me, the unmade bed and laundry might be less triggering.

Cat,
I appreciate a female perspective on what my plans have been for this week.  I do not want to come across as passive aggressive.  I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that she resents everything.  I don't think there is a better way to put it.  It is as if she believes that it is her responsibility to be a homemaker/teacher/etc but she does not enjoy any aspect of it and then when I don't mind or actually enjoy doing anything around the house, for example cooking, she takes it as I expect her to be the same.  I really enjoy cooking and love going 'all out' with making a fancy meal.  I don't do that because I expect her to be the same, I simply enjoy it but she views it as competition of sorts but her comfort zone is putting a few chicken breasts in the slow cooker and making some rice to go with it.  The same goes for grocery shopping.  I probably do 90% of the grocery shopping.  She says that she gets overwhelmed whenever she goes so I go to try to help out and I don't really mind it at all.  I don't expect her to show appreciation for me taking care of that task but instead of appreciation, she will find fault because I picked up something that we did not need or that she already had too much of.  At the end of the day, I really just want to see her happy, I guess that would be the 'appreciation' I want but that does not seem attainable.  If that means working, then I am fully supportive of her working.  If that is staying home, I am fully supportive of that.  The only issue that I have voiced about her being at home is how she interacts with the kids and the negative impact on them.  Both of my kids have voiced that they do not feel like she likes them or trusts them.  The way that she communicates frustration with them is extremely unhealthy and invalidating for them.  I would be thrilled if she enjoyed being home but she just seems unhappy no matter what.

[Woodchuck]

What if being kind was just okay?

I guess the question is, what motivates you to do tasks? (I initially typed “help”, but actually it’s partly your needs as well... .you want clean clothes, you want clean dishes... .I for one don’t like the look of mess and hate bits on our stone floor... .so guess what, I charm it and do the dishes. I don’t ‘expect’ ANYTHING in response from W. I don’t expect praise and I don’t expect critisism. I now ignore the latter.) sorry, that was a long bracket!

If you are doing things to gain favour, accept you’re not going to get it. If you’re doing things because you want them done... .own it and
Expect nothing.

Taking the blame for her choices... .don’t validate that. Validating it’s tough to home school... .because it is. You have to be a special Kim’s of character to e both teacher and mom.

Enabler -
If being kind worked it would be perfectly ok but I tend to have a great deal of anxiety over doing even the most simple of tasks, fearing that she will find something wrong with it.  Then I put myself in a catch22 where I feel like she will also be unhappy if nothing is done.  The norm is either that I don't do things correctly or I don't do enough and she does 'everything'.  There may be part of me that is doing things to try to gain favor but I believe I do things in response to trying to meet her needs.  I am fine with getting nothing in return but when I get negativity in return, it triggers me.

[Cat Familiar]

So she thinks these responsibilities of home schooling, housework, cooking etc. are her "job" but she doesn't like doing them and resents when you do them joyfully. What sorts of interventions, if any, has she had for depression?

You're concerned about the negative impact her emotional state has on the kids. Has she been to the doctor recently for a routine checkup?

From the way you describe her, it seems she's living a joyless existence and I wonder about depression being comorbid with BPD.

You're anxious about your "evaluation" that she will give you for all the assistance you provide. Your feelings are something we can work with. It's difficult to always have your behavior criticized, no matter how hard you try. And of course, you don't want negativity for your efforts. No one would.  

[Woodchuck]

So she thinks these responsibilities of home schooling, housework, cooking etc. are her "job" but she doesn't like doing them and resents when you do them joyfully. What sorts of interventions, if any, has she had for depression?

You're concerned about the negative impact her emotional state has on the kids. Has she been to the doctor recently for a routine checkup?

From the way you describe her, it seems she's living a joyless existence and I wonder about depression being comorbid with BPD.

You're anxious about your "evaluation" that she will give you for all the assistance you provide. Your feelings are something we can work with. It's difficult to always have your behavior criticized, no matter how hard you try. And of course, you don't want negativity for your efforts. No one would.  

To the best of my knowledge, she has not been evaluated for depression for many years.  She was prescribe an anti depressant about 10-12 years ago but stopped taking it after a few weeks because she claimed it made her very sick.  She did not go back to try to get a different med.  She is of the opinion now that she is perfectly fine as long as she is not around me.  I am the problem.  I am the one that needs to be fixed.  I have communicated that I want her to be happy and that if she is not happy with me that she should move out but her response is that she is staying for the kids sake.  I believe that your description of a 'joyless' experience is very accurate.  I am not sure when she was last in for a regular checkup.  The thing that makes the medical side more complicated is that she is an RN (registered nurse) and believes she knows what is best.  She has questioned/criticized my dr. and the recommendations that she has given me in the past despite the dr having much more experience and trying than my W.  The same thing has happened with her own medical issues.