No idea how to respond to spouse sort of following through on agreement

[Woodchuck]

I am at a loss on how to title this post appropriately.  A little background.  My vehicle has been in need of a paint job for a few years.  My W told me about 18 months ago that she wanted to take care of getting it done for me for Father's Day or Christmas or something.  The key is she told me that she wanted to take care of paying for it.  

One of our S14's friends dad worked at a paint shop and she planned on having him do it.  He came over and we went over what I wanted done.  After that, there was a bit of a falling out between the families due to our S14's friend stealing his wallet and then claiming that he found a lot of money on his way home.  Our S14 found his wallet in his "friend's" bike and we confronted him and his dad and he gave the money back.  That was the last time we talked.  

I mentioned needing to get the paint job done on a few occasions over the past several months and was met with silence.  A month or so ago I went to a local paint shop and got a quote and planned on getting it done.  They told me if I didn't get it done soon, it was going to require body work and be much more expensive.  I simply let my W know that I was planning on getting it painted and there was not much of a response.  I let her know approximately how much it would be.

When she asked me the other day for a list of things that I thought she had agreed to pay for, I mentioned the paint job and she claimed that she had only agreed to have our neighbor paint it and that never happened so it wasn't her issue.  I just let it go and did not try to discuss it further.  

Today I discovered that she went to the paint shop and paid the balance of the paint job.  I had put 50% down.  She has said nothing to me about it and I doubt that she will.  I have no idea how to respond to something like this.  She has stated over and over during the last week that she is done and wants a divorce etc and then does this.  It makes no sense.  

Any input or ideas?  I don't think it would be good for me to bring it up without her mentioning it first or after 'finding out' when I go to pick the truck up.  The way I found out today is seeing the invoice with a $0 balance when I was getting a few of my things out her car.  

Woodchuck

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[Learning2Thrive]

Today I discovered that she went to the paint shop and paid the balance of the paint job.  I had put 50% down.  She has said nothing to me about it and I doubt that she will.  I have no idea how to respond to something like this.  She has stated over and over during the last week that she is done and wants a divorce etc and then does this.  It makes no sense.  

Any input or ideas?  I don't think it would be good for me to bring it up without her mentioning it first or after 'finding out' when I go to pick the truck up.  The way I found out today is seeing the invoice with a $0 balance when I was getting a few of my things out her car.  

Hi Woodchuck 

Why do you think it would not be good for you to mention it without her bringing it up first or ‘finding out’ when you go pick up the truck?

What do you think would happen if you simply told her you were getting some of your things out of her car and noticed the invoice had been paid?

If you wait to mention until after you go pick up the truck, how do you think she may respond?

Sorry for asking so many questions, it’s hard to know how to answer without some understanding of your perception of her past behaviors.

People with BPD often don’t make a lot of sense to others a lot of the time.

L2T

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck 

Why do you think it would not be good for you to mention it without her bringing it up first or ‘finding out’ when you go pick up the truck?

What do you think would happen if you simply told her you were getting some of your things out of her car and noticed the invoice had been paid?

If you wait to mention until after you go pick up the truck, how do you think she may respond?

Sorry for asking so many questions, it’s hard to know how to answer without some understanding of your perception of her past behaviors.

People with BPD often don’t make a lot of sense to others a lot of the time.

L2T

L2T
Good morning!  I believe that it would be detrimental for me to bring it up first because I will most likely get accused of 'snooping' or receive the silent treatment.  If I wait until after I pick the truck up, there will be no possible grounds of accusing me of anything.  The silent treatment is still possible.  The whole scenario over the last week really just has me completely confused.  She has stated that she wants a divorce and can't stand me and then silently goes and pays for the rest of the paint job and after that has a very nasty conversation about the kids seeing a therapist(see the last post in the thread in the link below).
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327993.0

How do you go and pay $1k for something when you claim to hate the person and want a divorce and then have a conversation like we had.  The conversation and her visit to the paint shop were literally a few hours apart.  I know I probably should not try to understand.  I want to be validating and show appreciation but not at the expense of being attacked or mistreated.

Woodchuck

[Woodchuck]

One of the most frustrating things that I seem to deal with is dealing with a sudden switch.  It is not always a full switch but a switch at least in part.  My W can be extremely angry and giving me the ST for days.  I can approach her each day with an attempt at a hug and get the response that she doesn't want to be touched so I walk away.  I can approach and extend my hand in an attempt to hold her hand.  She will typically respond by shaking her head no and telling me to leave her alone.  Then out of the blue she will be receptive to a hug or actually reach out to hold my hand.  This creates a very conflicted emotion in me.  I understand that I am the one reaching out and initiating contact and I am at the point where I don't expect there to be anything in return.  When she does actually accept the attempt to connect I am happy but also 'angry' at the same time.  I am asking myself internally, 'why now? why couldn't she respond this way at the beginning?' etc.  I realize that this is something that I need to work on resolving in myself.  Maybe I shouldn't initiate contact.  If that is the case, I need to find a way to just let go of wanting to work towards peace etc.  I am really not sure how to process it in my head.  I want the connection but I also desire some type of closure to the conflict instead of it just being ignored.  Hopefully this makes at least a little bit of sense.

Woodchuck

[BeagleGirl]

Woodchuck,
 
I know how much those small rejections can hurt.  And then there's the uncertainty that you face between rejections. 

Is this something you have discussed in counseling?

Have you asked your wife what it is that makes her uncomfortable with your touch so you can try to address it?

I know that ST and withholding physical affection are manipulation tactics.  I've experienced them and also understand the anger that can rise when they finally give you what you've been asking for with no acknowledgment of the pain they've caused. 

What would "closure" look like to you?  Is it something you can ask for?

As far as whether or not to initiate contact, what do you think would be the best case and worst case scenarios if you stopped initiating contact?  Do you think you can do anything to steer towards the best case?  Are you willing to live with the worst case?

BG

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,
 

Thank you for the 'hug'!  it is much needed!

I know how much those small rejections can hurt.  And then there's the uncertainty that you face between rejections. 

Is this something you have discussed in counseling?

I don't think I have discussed this much if at all in counseling.  It has been about a month since my last session due to my T being on vacation.  This is something that I guess I have known about but really come to grips with until recently as I have been more aware or mindful of how I react to things.  I do plan on discussing it during our next session.

Have you asked your wife what it is that makes her uncomfortable with your touch so you can try to address it?

I have and the answer that I get is she does not feel loved, cared about or appreciated etc.  Most recently it is that she can stand being around me and that I make her miserable.  As I have become more mindful of communication I realize how much both of us have used 'you' statements instead of 'I' statements.  I believe that I have been just as 'guilty' of doing that as she has.  As I am working on changing how I communicate, I am more aware of the 'You' statements that are being used.

I know that ST and withholding physical affection are manipulation tactics.  I've experienced them and also understand the anger that can rise when they finally give you what you've been asking for with no acknowledgment of the pain they've caused. 

I believe that control and manipulation are really what the core objective is.  There have been cases where she has told me not to touch her and then less than a few hours later she is initiating sex.  At times I have resisted her initiation because I had just recently been rejected and had been trying to respect the space she wanted.  She would then ask if I didn't want her to initiate anything and that puts me in a position where neither yes or no are the right answer and I usually default to letting her in as that is what I would want if I was in her place.  I am not really sure how to explain how I feel about the entire thing.  In the end, I would usually fall asleep feeling empty and alone rather that connected and loved.  A physical need was met but a mental/emotional need was not met but more 'toyed with' I guess.  It just feels like she is messing with my head.

What would "closure" look like to you?  Is it something you can ask for?

I believe that closure for me would be her acknowledging my hurt and offer a sincere apology of some sort.  Almost any apology that she will offer is something like 'I am sorry you... .choose to feel hurt' or something along those lines.  I have only heard 'I am sorry I... .hurt you' etc 2-3 times during or entire relationship.  The apologies that are offered feel more like she is passively placing the blame on me for the hurt I am experiencing.  More often than not, if I ask about an apology or try to communicate hurt, her response is that she is not sorry, that I deserved it for x, y or z.  I have attempted to talk to her about this and it has never led anywhere. 

As far as whether or not to initiate contact, what do you think would be the best case and worst case scenarios if you stopped initiating contact?  Do you think you can do anything to steer towards the best case?  Are you willing to live with the worst case?

I believe that if I stop initiating contact that things will continue as I described above, where she will silently approach me eventually (maybe a few hours, maybe a few weeks) but there will be no addressing the conflict.  She has somehow resolved it in her own mind and it no longer exists or so it seems and the vicious cycle of wanting the closeness but still hurting will continue.  I am not really sure if this is the best case or not.  The worst case, in many ways, would be that there would be no more contact and we are just existing together.  I do not want to live that way.
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[BeagleGirl]

My apologies, Woodchuck, but I don't remember if you and your wife are currently in MC.  If you are, does your wife seem to want to better the relationship and willing to follow the advice of the T?

[Woodchuck]

My apologies, Woodchuck, but I don't remember if you and your wife are currently in MC.  If you are, does your wife seem to want to better the relationship and willing to follow the advice of the T?

BeagleGirl-
We have been to many marriage counselors from pastors and church counselors to licensed marriage counselors/therapists.  They have all ended up pretty much the same way with her being upset about something the counselor said or suggested.  The last T that we went to (a licensed MC/T) told us after about 8 months that there was nothing she could do for us.  That was probably 5-6 years ago.  My wife has the mentality that I am the sole problem and I need to change if I want things to work.  That is almost a direct quote from a week or two ago.

Woodchuck

[BeagleGirl]

Woodchuck,
Unfortunately that seems to be a common pattern with pwBPD. I generally am skeptical that MC will “work” with a BPD spouse. My dBPDxh has told quite a few people that our former MC (she’s still my T) should have her license revoked.

My T repeatedly stated that physical intimacy should be a celebration of love. This was primarily directed at dBPDxh, who would withhold affection and give the ST then expect me to switch gears and want sex after a token apology. It wasn’t that I didn’t want physical intimacy.  I crave touch, but found it hard to receive it from someone I didn’t trust and was shutting down during intimacy.  That would hurt/anger him and we’d start the cycle over again.

My T was giving me permission to say “no” to sex when I didn’t feel loved. In theory it would limit the further damage that was being done to our marriage by my feelings of being used and provide incentive for dBPDxh to prioritize actions that would make me feel loved and safe.

Do you feel like the physical touch you are offering does more good (bonding and satisfying your needs) or harm (creating instances of resentment)? 

BG

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,
Unfortunately that seems to be a common pattern with pwBPD. I generally am skeptical that MC will “work” with a BPD spouse. My dBPDxh has told quite a few people that our former MC (she’s still my T) should have her license revoked.

My W is the same way with counselors.  I don't know that she has stated that their license be revoked but she will complete discredit them.  It does not stop with counselors either.  My W is a nurse with a 2 year nursing degree and has used that on multiple occasions to challenge/discredit what my dr has recommended to treat/manage different health issues.  She can somehow believe that her 2 years of education combined with online research is better than that of a person that has had 10+ years on medical education and specializes in the areas that are related to health issues that I have had.  When I have chosen to go with the dr recommendation, my W will rage and discredit the dr any way that she can.  It just makes no sense, whether it be with the dr or counselors.  I am not saying that more education makes you right all the time but higher education should be respected and valued.
[/quote]

My T repeatedly stated that physical intimacy should be a celebration of love. This was primarily directed at dBPDxh, who would withhold affection and give the ST then expect me to switch gears and want sex after a token apology. It wasn’t that I didn’t want physical intimacy.  I crave touch, but found it hard to receive it from someone I didn’t trust and was shutting down during intimacy.  That would hurt/anger him and we’d start the cycle over again.

My W will actually say something similar about how she needs to have an emotional connection in order to be intimate.  I completely understand that.  The odd thing is that she will switch at times and either say that she wants to be intimate because at least we can feel close that way or that she is willing to meet my needs so just take what I want.  While I can appreciate in a way that she wants to be intimate, I am confused at the same time because it directly contradicts what she has stated in the past.  The second response just does not set well with me at all as I don't want to 'just take what I want'.  I completely understand craving something but at the same time not wanting it due to lack of trust.  It is a very awkward mindframe to deal with.

My T was giving me permission to say “no” to sex when I didn’t feel loved. In theory it would limit the further damage that was being done to our marriage by my feelings of being used and provide incentive for dBPDxh to prioritize actions that would make me feel loved and safe.

Do you feel like the physical touch you are offering does more good (bonding and satisfying your needs) or harm (creating instances of resentment)?

I have not really talked to my T about these issues much as I guess in a way I have kind of viewed them as secondary.  I have a hard time saying 'no' because of my belief about doing to others as you would have them do to you.  This is probably not necessarily a healthy mindset to practice under the circumstances as I will probably never see my W treat me the way I want to be treated despite my efforts to treat her that way.  I am really not sure if the physical touch I am offering does more harm or good.  I want her to know that I am still there for her even if she continues to push me away but as you mentioned it does create resentment and I need to explore healthy ways to deal with the resentment and determine if there is a way to avoid or minimize the resentment by changing my approach.  It is all just very complicated.

Woodchuck 

BG
[/quote]

[Skip]

WC, I haven't read all your posts, but I get the general gist of what is happening here.

Why did she pay it? It's possibly obligation or guilt. It's clearly not something bad.

I think, no matter what, it's important to reward good behavior. Why don't you buy her flowers or candy or a little gift that she will like and leave it were she will find it with a 2-3 word note?

Does that seem off?

[Woodchuck]

WC, I haven't read all your posts, but I get the general gist of what is happening here.

Why did she pay it? It's possibly obligation or guilt. It's clearly not something bad.

I think, no matter what, it's important to reward good behavior. Why don't you buy her flowers or candy or a little gift that she will like and leave it were she will find it with a 2-3 word note?

Does that seem off?

Skip-
Unfortunately it does seem off.  She hates gifts, especially flowers and has told me over the past several months that my words (referring to countless letters/cards that I have written) are worthless to her.  The last time I bought her flowers, she gave them to our daughter and told me that I know she doesn't like flowers and it was disrespectful and an insult for me to do so.  At that point, I felt like I had to do something to try to reach out to her and nothing else had worked.  I knew in my head that buying flowers would not be received well but in my heart I wanted to do something and I allowed my heart to lead my decision.
I agree that good behavior is rewarded, however if I react in a positive way to something that she does, she will tell me that I am just doing that to get what I want.  I agree wholeheartedly that her making that payment was not bad and I would love to be able to validate that to her but I believe that no matter how it was addressed, she would find a way for it to be negative/selfish or something along those lines.  It is possible that is guilt or obligation.  I guess the reason behind it is of less importance to me than the mixed messages.  Trying to process that she wants a divorce and the very same day goes and pays $1K for something for me just is beyond being able to understand, especially when I look at all the other negative communication about how much she can't stand me and how I make her miserable.  It all just does not compute.

Woodchuck

[lonely38]

This all sounds familiar to me.  We have been to so many marriage therapists over the years.  One is a therapist we have been to for years.  About 8 years ago my husband confessed to immorality throughout our marriage.  He then went through sex addiction counseling with this same therapist and then he and I continued going to this therapist.  It was during this time that he and the therapist 'butted heads' according to my husband.  Now this therapist is on my husband's bad list.

I am continuing to go to this therapist at this point as he is helping me to remove myself from my husband's ups and downs and craziness.

I am working on getting healthier.  One of the books the therapist has recommended to me is 'the gaslight effect'.  It is pretty interesting as it shows me some of the communication styles we have had in our marriage.  What I am coming to terms with is that the vast majority of our conflict has been because of my husband's BPD issues.  I have joined in with him and added to the fire which I am not trying to back off of.

One of the best pieces of advice I read in one of my BPD books was that a husband told his wife that 'this behavior has got to stop'.  He told her what he was going to do when she repeated the behavior and then followed through several times when she did indeed repeat the behavior.  His remark in the book was that she finally started to understand that he meant what he said and she responded in a positive way, even apologizing to him for her behavior.

I feel in my own marriage that I have put up with so much that it is messing with my own sanity and this is the main reason I am getting help. 

Thank you for sharing your stuff, I can definitely relate!

[BeagleGirl]

Woodchuck,
I agree with FF that you should do your best to reward the behavior, even if you know there's a high likelihood of her seeing it in the wrong way and lashing back.

To minimize the risk of that happening, do you think you could say something like "I really appreciate what you did and want to say thank you in a way that will be meaningful to you.  I know you don't care for flowers and I think some of the notes I've given you have missed the mark as well.  I probably should know this already, considering how long we've been married, but I really want to know how I can say 'thank you' and 'I love you' through my actions as well as my words."?

I know that sort of statement from my husband would have been all I really needed, but I would have probably responded by telling him that I wanted to spend time with him (quality time is my love language) rather than receive a gift.  

I don't know if your wife is capable of responding to something like that, but don't be discouraged if she doesn't have a ready answer.  Maybe let her know she can have some time to think about it and approach you later or you will check in with her after a set period of time.  You don't want her to feel burdened by the need to answer, but checking back in once confirms you weren't just saying it mattered to you.  It really does matter.

Of course I would consider this the care and handling of a "non" wife.  Not sure how it will come across to BPDw.

BG

[Woodchuck]

I am not really sure how to respond.  I should probably just let things rest.  I would really LOVE to be appreciative.  The fact is that by all appearances, the 'nice' thing that she did, she did 'behind my back' and has kept it from me.  At the end of the day, all these different scenarios seem like mind games and I am very tired of mind games.  The more I reflect on things, the more frustrated I have become.  The more I see patterns of her 'changing her mind' but then I have to question was she really changing her mind in all these scenarios?  This is a list of some of the more major 'mind changes' that I have seen over the years.

She claims when we meet that she has never been in a relationship and has no intentions of getting married (she was 19 at the time)
3-6 months after "meeting me" (we had not met in person, just interacted online) she tells me that she is in love with me and that we either pursue a serious relationship or no relationship (she didn't want to 'play games')

She claims from the time I meet her until we had been married for about 2 years that she never wanted to have children but suddenly changes her mind and does everything she can to convince me that we should

She claimed that she felt that we were at a place in our relationship where we could handle a dog after we had been married for 17+ years (I had wanted one since we had married). After I spent a year working on training the dog and really enjoying having one, she told me that if I did not find him a new home she would take him to a shelter.  She was the only one that 'did not like' the dog.  The kids and I really enjoyed him aside from the fact that she did not like him and made it quite obvious.  This cost me a lot of emotional turmoil and several thousand dollars in vet bills and different things I bought to try to make things work from a dog run, kennel, shock collar etc.  I drew the line when she told me she wanted me to keep him outside.  She claimed that dogs are not indoor animals and should be kept outside and on a chain (due to not having a fenced yard). Shortly after that was the ultimatum to find him a new home or she would get rid of him

She claimed that she was planning on being the primary bread winner when I retired.  We had planned on this for 3 years.  I have invested any extra money that I have had into trying to make sure I was ready to hit the ground running when I retire and run my business full time.  Out of nowhere, she changes her mind and says she is no longer going to be the primary earner when I am just a few months from retirement.  This cost me thousands of dollars as well as many almost sleepless nights as I worked to fulfill orders and grow my customer base while everyone else was asleep. 

On a smaller scale, she has stated that she wants to go talk to my dr about concerns she has about my health and the Dr's recommendations.  The day of the appointment, she changes her mind and hands me a stack of papers that she had printed out from her online research and told me to tell the doc to read them.  The same the happened just this week with her stating a few weeks ago that she wanted to go talk to my therapist about her concerns about me having a PD and when I let her know when our next session is, she states that she in no longer interested in going.

I understand this is going on a bit of a squirrel trail but I think it is important to see that there is a history/trend.  The above scenarios are just a few highlights that have had a great impact on me.


FF- To answer your question, I have no idea what it would be like to be that kind of person.  It all really seems like it is largely about control more than anything else.  I guess there has to be a huge void/insecurity in that person that they  are trying to compensate for.
As for missing her bids, I don't believe she really has any true bids.  She may feel like she does at times but at the core, it seems like she does not want any real connection.  From my experience though, if I miss one of her bids, she will be certain to tell me about it.  I could give a few examples of how that has panned out in the past.

I have a very difficult time 'putting my computer away' because analyzing and trying to avoid conflict is a coping technique. 

I am not sure if her reaction means that I should do it or not.  I am not sure if there is a 'right' answer.  If I do the 'right' thing and it does not have a positive effect on her and subsequently causes me emotional pain, is it really right?

Beagle-  The concern that I have, which is based on past experience is that she has not told me anything about it and has 'hid' it from me so I strongly believe that if I thanked her for it, the appreciation would not even be acknowledged but rather the focus would be all on how I found out and so on.  Her response would most likely be to tell me that she did not want to discuss it.  If that was not her response, the other most likely response will be to ask me how I found out and then why I was in her car and it would spiral from there.  If she wanted me to know, she would have either said something or left the invoice out in plain site in the house or somewhere that she expected me to find it.  My brain is fried right now

[Woodchuck]

UPDATE:
My W went out to clean her car this morning.  Prior to that we were have a discussion on moving forward and she started attacking me for taking care of the the black mold in the shower (earlier post) and not including her even though I tried several times.  She also attacked me for getting my truck painted without talking with her.  I felt this was an opportunity to ask if she knew where my invoice for the paint job was.  She said she did but offered no additional information.  I asked here where it was at and she responded it was in her car.  I asked her why it was in her car and she refused to say anything.  When she went out to clean out her car I asked her if she had the invoice.  She handed it to me and took a second or two to look at it.  I told her that I appreciated her taking care of that.  She responded, 'your welcome' and walked away. 

[pearlsw]

UPDATE:
My W went out to clean her car this morning.  Prior to that we were have a discussion on moving forward and she started attacking me for taking care of the the black mold in the shower (earlier post) and not including her even though I tried several times.  She also attacked me for getting my truck painted without talking with her.  I felt this was an opportunity to ask if she knew where my invoice for the paint job was.  She said she did but offered no additional information.  I asked here where it was at and she responded it was in her car.  I asked her why it was in her car and she refused to say anything.  When she went out to clean out her car I asked her if she had the invoice.  She handed it to me and took a second or two to look at it.  I told her that I appreciated her taking care of that.  She responded, 'your welcome' and walked away. 

Hi Woodchuck,

I think you may have missed an opportunity here... .and it I think it may be because you have let some anger and resentment build up.

She likely paid it off because she had promised you this gift and she was following through on her word. Who knows why she hesitated to come in now and play the hero and get her credit for it. Probably because you two are both having trouble being your best selves with each other at this point and aren't communicating well. The fact is she wanted to and did do something nice. That is a good thing. Even if she didn't come there and announce it. I notice you didn't go to her right away when you found out because figuring out her motives mattered more than just going with what the reaction could have been: "Hey honey, thanks. I found out you got me that gift. That was nice of you!"

Okay. It was a "you're welcome" and she walked away. Don't get stuck in the hurt. That is what you say, although it was not well delivered, that means she wanted to do a good thing, she just didn't know how to do it pain free. That's all it is.

Your turn. Perhaps do something nice for her in return, it need not be big, just friendly. This is not a battle. It'll take work, but you need to get some give and take going I think.

wishing you the best, pearl.

[BeagleGirl]

Woodchuck,

I think it might also be helpful to really listen to what your wife is saying when she says that you are incapable of caring for her.  I know that it was like a dagger to your heart, and I don't doubt that it was intended to feel like that.  What I do question is whether it could also have been a deep cry of anguish from your wife.  It's possible that she is hurting because there is this giant hole inside of her and she's realized you can't fill it.  The faith we share indicates that only God can fill that hole, but God can seem so far away and how do you fill a hole with something you can't grasp?  I don't doubt that she has turned her anger and frustration towards you, but I'm wondering if you can look beyond that to the hurt she's feeling.

I know that's a VERY tall order when you are barely able to see past your own pain.  I TOTALLY get that.  I have been in a place where I felt like saying "How dare you ask me to see dBPDxh's pain?  HE caused that pain and mine as well."  The question you have to ask is whether you really do want things to improve.  If you do, then it is going to be a Herculean task, the first step of which is to get yourself to a point where you are no longer acting out of a place of pain. 

If you think you have some energy to expend on improving, I think it would be good to talk about boundaries around the things that your wife is saying to you that are tearing you apart.  I'm curious as to whether you have tried SET when she says things like "You are incapable of loving me", or if you have attempted to set a boundary around your willingness to participate in a conversation like that. 

BG

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,

I think it might also be helpful to really listen to what your wife is saying when she says that you are incapable of caring for her.  I know that it was like a dagger to your heart, and I don't doubt that it was intended to feel like that.  What I do question is whether it could also have been a deep cry of anguish from your wife.  It's possible that she is hurting because there is this giant hole inside of her and she's realized you can't fill it.  The faith we share indicates that only God can fill that hole, but God can seem so far away and how do you fill a hole with something you can't grasp?  I don't doubt that she has turned her anger and frustration towards you, but I'm wondering if you can look beyond that to the hurt she's feeling.

BG-
I think that it is a deep cry of anguish from my wife.  I think that there is a huge hole that only she/God can fill.  All I can really do is pray for her and try to be loving and supportive and understanding of her hurt.  It is difficult because I believe it is all about focus.  I strongly believe in the 'saying' that 'as a man thinks, so is he'.  If we focus on the bad and negative, we are going to be miserable.  If we focus on the positive and helping others, we are going to be much happier.  She seems to not be able to get past any hurt, big or small, perceived or real. 

I know that's a VERY tall order when you are barely able to see past your own pain.  I TOTALLY get that.  I have been in a place where I felt like saying "How dare you ask me to see dBPDxh's pain?  HE caused that pain and mine as well."  The question you have to ask is whether you really do want things to improve.  If you do, then it is going to be a Herculean task, the first step of which is to get yourself to a point where you are no longer acting out of a place of pain. 

I do see her pain and I see that I have been the cause of some of her deepest pain.  I do want things to improve but without going to deep into things, it is really going to take a miracle.  I know it will be a huge task as it has been a huge task to just hold on this long.  I have had several people tell me they have no idea how I have been able to cope for so long.  I am a firm believer in the idea that I can do anything I put my mind to.  I think that for the most part, I am able to put my pain aside.  Two of the most painful things that I have dealt with are the ultimatum that she gave several years ago, telling me that it was either her or my family.  Either I cut off all contact with them or she was leaving.  I sought counsel from one of our pastors and he advised me that I should cut off contact with my family.  I will never forget the phone call that I made to my parents.  It was absolutely gut wrenching and if I could go back I would have held firm and refused despite what I was advised.  I have been able to put that pain aside.  I do think about it from time to time but the pain is largely gone despite the fact that she has never acknowledged the hurt etc.  The other more recent pain, that I am still trying to manage is when she told our pastor that she would be relieved if I was dead.  This was absolutely crushing!  The only reason that I am alive now is because of our children.  My mindset, as messed up as it may be was maybe I should just kill myself if that will really make her feel relieved.  I am slowly getting past that as I know that it would really not be a true relief but even if it was, it would not be worth the pain that it would cause my children and FOO. 

If you think you have some energy to expend on improving, I think it would be good to talk about boundaries around the things that your wife is saying to you that are tearing you apart.  I'm curious as to whether you have tried SET when she says things like "You are incapable of loving me", or if you have attempted to set a boundary around your willingness to participate in a conversation like that. 

I have been focusing on replacing JADE with SET.  I am far from perfect but I am at least mindful of the difference and try to put SET into practice.  This is one of the last messages that I sent to her.  I think that I did an ok job at using SET... .

"And i have no desire to fight with you.   I completely understand how you feel about our relationship and the hurt and pain that has been experienced.  I have always been and always will be sorry for any way that I have hurt you.  I believe in my heart that there have been good times as well and I believe that there is potential for a great relationship if we can figure out how to move past (not the same as forgetting) the hurt and look forward and focus on building good to help heal the pain.   If you don’t believe that is possible, I accept that.   I will not try to convince you to think differently.  As I have said manny times, my hearts desire is to see you happy and fulfilled.  If that means leaving then so be it.  "

WC

[Woodchuck]

This came up again today.  It has come up countless times and I have no idea how to deal with it.  Today, my W told me that I take no accountability for anything and think that I believe that there should not be any consquences for any of my choices.  She went on to tell me that I have been a very bad leader for our family and she is tired of 'bailing me out' of all the poor choices that I make and that she is tired of being the only one to pay for all my poor choices.  Before I could really say anything, our S14 asked her what consequences she was talking about.  She told him that it was none of his business.  I asked her what poor choices she was referring to.  The first one she brought up was my decision to lease a vehicle 10 years ago.  The car that we had kept having issues and the warranty was about to expire.  After getting the water pump replaced for the third time, I took it in to try to trade it in.  The salesman made leasing sound like a great option and I decided to go that route.  As many may know, unless you plan on getting a new vehicle every few years, leasing is not a great option most of the time.  I have admitted many times that it was not a good financial choice and if I could go back I would have done things differently.  As far as I know, that is taking accountability.  I went on to ask her what consequences she felt I needed and she said she couldn't explain that to me but that I needed consequences that would ensure that I didn't make the same mistake again.  Guess what, that is the only car that we have ever leased.  I haven't made the mistake again and have taken full responsibility for making a not so great decision.  This mentality spills over to everything else though and those of you that have followed my posts, know that I have had my share of shortcomings and failures.  What I don't understand is how she FEELS that I don't take accountability.  If nothing else, I believe a do a very good and consistent job on taking responsibility/accountability for any of my failures.  I don't try to minimize them or share blame.  It seems like she has this idea in her head of specific consequences that would be 'justice' for her and until those consequences become reality, I am getting off scott free.  I explained to her as well as the children that I completely understand that she and they have paid consequences for some of the choices that I have made and that it has been completely unfair for them to experience the pain of some of my choices.  I really don't know how to go about dealing with this mentality.

WC

[Woodchuck]

This all sounds familiar to me.  We have been to so many marriage therapists over the years.  One is a therapist we have been to for years.  About 8 years ago my husband confessed to immorality throughout our marriage.  He then went through sex addiction counseling with this same therapist and then he and I continued going to this therapist.  It was during this time that he and the therapist 'butted heads' according to my husband.  Now this therapist is on my husband's bad list.

I am continuing to go to this therapist at this point as he is helping me to remove myself from my husband's ups and downs and craziness.

Lonely-
This does all sound very familiar.  Once someone is on my W's bad list, she attempts to eliminate any contact between us.  The last time we met with our pastor, she told him that I was not allowed to talk to him without her present.  I respected that for several months but got to the point where I needed to talk to someone and I respect him and his input so I told her that I would be talking to him as I saw fit.

I am working on getting healthier.  One of the books the therapist has recommended to me is 'the gaslight effect'.  It is pretty interesting as it shows me some of the communication styles we have had in our marriage.  What I am coming to terms with is that the vast majority of our conflict has been because of my husband's BPD issues.  I have joined in with him and added to the fire which I am not trying to back off of.

I will have to check out that book.  I have been working my way through a few other books but will add that one to my list.  I am very guilty of adding to the fire instead of just backing off myself.  It is very easy to do.

One of the best pieces of advice I read in one of my BPD books was that a husband told his wife that 'this behavior has got to stop'.  He told her what he was going to do when she repeated the behavior and then followed through several times when she did indeed repeat the behavior.  His remark in the book was that she finally started to understand that he meant what he said and she responded in a positive way, even apologizing to him for her behavior.

I think this is key and one of the areas where I have failed and made things worse.  I have stated that I am going to do something and then not followed through.  This has shown her that I will accept her behavior and won't follow through.  It can be hard to do because you don't want to 'hurt' them but I believe that it is necessary.  I told her last year that I was going to go see a lawyer to get advice on separation.  She would not believe that I actually did until I showed her the receipt from the lawyers office.  I told her that I planned to start the required 12 month separation, which I did but I could not push through past about 6 weeks.  I have told her on many occasions that I am going to move out and put the house up for sale but have never followed through.  That has been a bad on my part as it shows that I won't follow through.  I really need to work on this and think long and hard before saying that I am going to do something.

WC

[pearlsw]

Hi Woodchuck,

You have a lot of threads going at once so let's focus on this one now. Once we have many going at once it can be hard to follow.

So, let's focus here as I say!

Okay. Did you JADE? No need to justify, argue, defend or explain this. You are right, this was 10 years ago, enough on that one.

But did you validate and let her feel listened to? Did you hear what she is really saying and digging up a very old example about?

She is saying she is unhappy with you as a husband. Okay, to be expected.

Can you write out exactly how she said this? Did something today lead up to this?

Remember, take a deep breath. Take it easy. These are words and we can work and try to take the pain out of a bit.

This is not easy stuff. I hear a lot of garbage myself. It takes being able to say simple things like "I hear you are upset. I am sorry you feel bad. That must be upsetting." Just statements like that. And then if it goes further you walk away. But listening, and letting a person feel really listened to, without JADE-ing can sometimes make a difference.

It's late here. Hopefully others will come and work the tools with you a bit. That is where the focus needs to be. We'll get there! But take it easy and depersonalize a bit.

Think of this: Thoughts are clouds, mind is sky. The words she is saying are just clouds. They will go past. Do not attach to them, that is where your pain is coming from. Let them go by. Just observe. And let go.

take care, pearl.

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck,

You have a lot of threads going at once so let's focus on this one now. Once we have many going at once it can be hard to follow.

So, let's focus here as I say!

Pearl-
Good evening.  I apologize for all the posts.  I get conflicted on whether I should start a new one or just add to one that I already have started.  I will trying to stay focused here.   I have started to get a hang of the quotes.

Okay. Did you JADE? No need to justify, argue, defend or explain this. You are right, this was 10 years ago, enough on that one.

I don't believe I JADEd.  I guess I did explain that I have taken responsibility for that and have not made the same mistake again.

But did you validate and let her feel listened to? Did you hear what she is really saying and digging up a very old example about?

I did my best to do this.  I took responsibility again and validated that it was a less than great decision.  I further stated that I know that I have been far from perfect but have owned all of my mistakes and have tried to learn from them and make myself a better person.  After that, I told her that I was not going to argue about it or discuss it any further.

She is saying she is unhappy with you as a husband. Okay, to be expected.

Can you write out exactly how she said this? Did something today lead up to this?

I don't recall exactly what led up to it, I believe it had something to do with finances and how I have been 'horrible' with finances for the entire time we have been married.  She stated that I have been a very bad leader for our family.  That is almost a direct quote. 

Remember, take a deep breath. Take it easy. These are words and we can work and try to take the pain out of a bit.

This is not easy stuff. I hear a lot of garbage myself. It takes being able to say simple things like "I hear you are upset. I am sorry you feel bad. That must be upsetting." Just statements like that. And then if it goes further you walk away. But listening, and letting a person feel really listened to, without JADE-ing can sometimes make a difference.

It is definitely not easy but with the support here, I think I am learning and growing.
This is a response to her saying that she did not want to fight.  It was my attempt at using SET... .

And i have no desire to fight with you.   I completely understand how you feel about our relationship and the hurt and pain that has been experienced.  I have always been and always will be sorry for any way that I have hurt you.  I believe in my heart that there have been good times as well and I believe that there is potential for a great relationship if we can figure out how to move past (not the same as forgetting) the hurt and look forward and focus on building good to help heal the pain.   If you don’t believe that is possible, I accept that.   I will not try to convince you to think differently.  As I have said many times, my hearts desire is to see you happy and fulfilled.  If that means leaving then so be it. 
[/quote]

Think of this: Thoughts are clouds, mind is sky. The words she is saying are just clouds. They will go past. Do not attach to them, that is where your pain is coming from. Let them go by. Just observe. And let go.

take care, pearl.

I am working on that and slowing getting better.   Thank you for the encouragement!

WC

[jsgirl360]

Hi Woodchuck... .

I can relate to what you call the "sudden switch". I've gone through weeks of ST and him "freezing" or becoming angry if I attempt touch. Usually he will only initiate touch if he wants to meet his "basic need". That consists of sex with the least possible intimacy and touching.  Since he's a man... .and I understand men and women have different "needs"... .I'm not sure that's the reason your wife is suddenly receptive.  I do wonder if your wife's "sudden switch" is to meet some kind of need of hers (unfortunately BPD's are often self-serving. ) Perhaps she feels the need for some kind of emotional validation?

Kudos to you for approaching her day after day despite being rejected at times. Many people would quit attempting pretty quickly.  It's always on her terms - this is common with a pwBPD.  It becomes disheartening, since a marriage is supposed to be a partnership... .not one person doing all the work, with the other even pulling in the opposite direction... .

I used to do exactly as you do with my husband.  When I quit initiating contact, he seemed almost relieved.  Surprisingly,  I felt relief too. It was very unexpected,  but it was like lifting a weight off my shoulders... .that I was giving up the impossible responsibility of withstanding a marriage on my own. With your wife, since she's female and a different person,  her reaction might be much different if you stop initiating.  She might feel threatened and lash out more.  She might even see it as a wake-up call and stop the behavior since it's not getting a reaction. 

Unfortunately,  it won't do much toward resolving the conflict that resulted in the ST. The pattern my husband and I have had our entire marriage is this: We get into an argument. Or I do or say something he doesn't like (knowingly or not). Then... .he gives me the ST for days, weeks, maybe months. Then... .he decides to stop the ST suddenly... .when it is convenient for him. One important thing is this: we never, ever come up with any closure or resolution that caused the conflict in the first place. He makes sure of that.  I swear it's a hallmark of BPD. As a result the same conflicts will reappear for years and years.

I wish I knew more of what to say. You can control your actions, and to an extent what you spend your time focusing on. For you, that's most important.

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck... .

I can relate to what you call the "sudden switch". I've gone through weeks of ST and him "freezing" or becoming angry if I attempt touch. Usually he will only initiate touch if he wants to meet his "basic need". That consists of sex with the least possible intimacy and touching.  Since he's a man... .and I understand men and women have different "needs"... .I'm not sure that's the reason your wife is suddenly receptive.  I do wonder if your wife's "sudden switch" is to meet some kind of need of hers (unfortunately BPD's are often self-serving. ) Perhaps she feels the need for some kind of emotional validation?

Good evening jsgirl!  This is all so frustrating and I can imagine that it is even more frustrating with having attempted touch and been rejected and then him unfreezing and just wanting to have his 'basic need' met.  This has to make you feel used and empty in a way.  I guess I am different from some men in that I don't just want my 'basic need' met if that basic need is just sex.  That may be due to being emotionally starved and craving a deep connection that is not there for years.  When she tells me to just 'take what I want', it makes me feel empty as I don't just want sex.  I am not sure what her reason is for the sudden switch.  I wish I could understand it.

Kudos to you for approaching her day after day despite being rejected at times. Many people would quit attempting pretty quickly.  It's always on her terms - this is common with a pwBPD.  It becomes disheartening, since a marriage is supposed to be a partnership... .not one person doing all the work, with the other even pulling in the opposite direction... .

If I could quit attempting, I would.  I think it would hurt less.  I feel compelled to continue to reach out.  It is almost like she is a drug.  That is a horrible analogy but it is close to how I feel things are.  I think that she is too overwhelmed with all the hurt and pain that she is unable to process to be present and be a participating partner.  I am beginning to understand this better and that makes it a little bit easier.

I used to do exactly as you do with my husband.  When I quit initiating contact, he seemed almost relieved.  Surprisingly,  I felt relief too. It was very unexpected,  but it was like lifting a weight off my shoulders... .that I was giving up the impossible responsibility of withstanding a marriage on my own. With your wife, since she's female and a different person,  her reaction might be much different if you stop initiating.  She might feel threatened and lash out more.  She might even see it as a wake-up call and stop the behavior since it's not getting a reaction. 

I have stopped initiating for 6+ weeks in the past.  She will eventually initiate something but it feels hollow.  I believe that she would really be ok with no contact.  I wish I could feel relieved but I feel a huge amount of anxiety in part because there is unresolved conflict and because I see her hurting and I hate seeing her hurting especially when I feel helpless to help her not hurt.

Unfortunately,  it won't do much toward resolving the conflict that resulted in the ST. The pattern my husband and I have had our entire marriage is this: We get into an argument. Or I do or say something he doesn't like (knowingly or not). Then... .he gives me the ST for days, weeks, maybe months. Then... .he decides to stop the ST suddenly... .when it is convenient for him. One important thing is this: we never, ever come up with any closure or resolution that caused the conflict in the first place. He makes sure of that.  I swear it's a hallmark of BPD. As a result the same conflicts will reappear for years and years.

This is almost exactly how our cycles go.  There is never any resolution to any issue, big or small.  Everything is held to be used later on.  It would be such a relief to be able to reach real resolution on something and move forward. 

I wish I knew more of what to say. You can control your actions, and to an extent what you spend your time focusing on. For you, that's most important.

This is very true and I am slowly getting better at that.  Thank you for sharing your experiences.  It is nice to not feel alone.  Have a great week!

WC

[Radcliff]

I know you're already burning the candle at both ends, and your reading list is long, but one book you might want to consider picking up is The High Conflict Couple.  Though it doesn't mention BPD, it is written by a BPD expert.  I found the book read directly on my situation with my wife, and I think you'd find it valuable.

You are doing a massive amount of work to make life better for yourself and your family.  It takes courage and an iron will to do what you're doing.  Keep going!

WW

[Chosen]

I have and the answer that I get is she does not feel loved, cared about or appreciated etc. 

Woodchuck,

Do you think she paid off the paint job in an attempt to get you to appreciate her more?  That you would mention it to her and thank her for it?  Since from other posts I have discovered that your wife behaves similarly to my husband in certain ways, I will share with you my experience. 

Unlike some pwBPDs who sit around doing nothing and then complain about the non, my uBPDh is the type who does everything- to the point where he is pushing his own limits (not good, as it leads him to be resentful, but I guess he doesn't know how to stop).  I think subconsciously he is doing it to feel needed, in control and he wants to be appreciated.  I think it also stems from enmeshment- he always claims that his only purpose is to make me feel happy (although, ahem, he does a lot that makes me feel the opposite).  Do you think your wife may be doing the same thing from her gesture? 

[Woodchuck]

I know you're already burning the candle at both ends, and your reading list is long, but one book you might want to consider picking up is The High Conflict Couple.  Though it doesn't mention BPD, it is written by a BPD expert.  I found the book read directly on my situation with my wife, and I think you'd find it valuable.

You are doing a massive amount of work to make life better for yourself and your family.  It takes courage and an iron will to do what you're doing.  Keep going!

WW

WW-
Thank you for the book suggestion.  I think I have seen that one before but have not read it.  I will add it to my list.  You are correct, it is a lot of work but if it helps our kids and shows them how to handle things in a healthy manner, it is worth it.

WC

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,

Do you think she paid off the paint job in an attempt to get you to appreciate her more?  That you would mention it to her and thank her for it?  Since from other posts I have discovered that your wife behaves similarly to my husband in certain ways, I will share with you my experience. 

Chosen-
I think it may be partly that but also combined with wanting to control as someone pointed out earlier as well as making good on her original agreement.  I don't believe she would have done it if I had not mentioned anything to her about waiting for her to follow through on what she said she was going to do and then deciding to just get it done myself.

Unlike some pwBPDs who sit around doing nothing and then complain about the non, my uBPDh is the type who does everything- to the point where he is pushing his own limits (not good, as it leads him to be resentful, but I guess he doesn't know how to stop).  I think subconsciously he is doing it to feel needed, in control and he wants to be appreciated.  I think it also stems from enmeshment- he always claims that his only purpose is to make me feel happy (although, ahem, he does a lot that makes me feel the opposite).  Do you think your wife may be doing the same thing from her gesture? 

I think my W is somewhere in the middle in this regard.  She does not just sit around and do nothing all the time, however she has progressively spent more time laying down and napping/sleeping.  If she isn't asleep she is typically on her phone or computer.  She does get spurts where she gets the urge to clean.  That usually happens once a month or so.
As far as happiness goes, I do not think that she genuinely cares about my happiness.  If I try to communicate a need or want to her, her response is usually, 'I am not responsible for your happiness'.  The difficult part about that statement is that the words are true but what she is really saying is not what the words say.  I am at the point where I am not taking it as personally as I am understanding that she is so consumed by her own hurt etc that she is not capable of much more.  The times it does bother me is when she goes out of her way to make someone else happy.  It tends to make me feel completely unimportant.  That is something I still need to work through.

WC