When am I acting in a healthy way, and when am I playing games

[jukeboxhero]

I’m in the process of trying to stabilize and rebuild my relationship with my pwBPD. I’m trying to not enable her, but to set and reinforce my boundaries.

I’ve read a lot of the work by internet experts like Shari Screiber and Corey Wayne. I’ve gotten advice from my T and friends. The problem is that everyone seems to be half wrong about everything. The only consistently good advice is from this board.

One area that I’m confused about is how to react to her push/pull behavior, when we’re only communicating via text. Sometimes when I message her to try and get together, it will work and sometimes she’ll actually ignore me. I keep having to remind myself that she’s BPD, she has no consistent emotions or memory. I have no way of gauging her current feelings when sending a text message. Calling out of the blue has only worked once in all the time I’ve known her.

I’m just confused on guidelines… when should I wait for her to make contact? Should I wait for her to suggest meeting up? When am I acting in a healthy way, and when am I just playing games and being manipulative? Being manipulative isn’t necessarily wrong, it’s all about motive. Being “successful” with a pwBPD and being healthy can be two very different things.

I’ve recently read “Boundaries: where you end and I begin”. I can’t recommend it highly enough. I think my lack of boundaries is what triggers my pwBPD’s engulfment fears.

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[once removed]

just a quick fact check: shari schreiber and corey wayne arent experts, they are sales people. schreiber is an internet blogger, corey wayne is a "life coach". you and i have the same credentials that they do.

more importantly... .

shari schreiber sells a message riddled with junk psychology that your partner is a monster, and that you should run far away from her. its not a message that is conducive to reconciling your relationship, or seeing your role in the relationship conflict.

corey wayne sells a message for young, frustrated guys, in the early stages of dating, and tricks to use. some of its useful, some of its nonsense, but above all, its not a message about how to deeply connect with a long term relationship partner.

what i think will help in the long term, is first, recognizing the stage your relationship is in, learning to read her, and become more self aware.  

as i read it, youre approaching this in a matter that she is flawed, can be tamed, and when she comes to her senses, won back.

theres no official relationship. she likes you, but shes been clearly hesitant about going any further. there arent tricks or boundaries (beyond respecting hers) for that scenario. its more a matter of acceptance, and respecting it, which we show best in our actions. when we see our situation for what it is, then we can work with it.

I’m just confused on guidelines… when should I wait for her to make contact? Should I wait for her to suggest meeting up? When am I acting in a healthy way, and when am I just playing games and being manipulative? Being manipulative isn’t necessarily wrong, it’s all about motive. Being “successful” with a pwBPD and being healthy can be two very different things.

dont be manipulative. be confident and sure of yourself. be authentic. and also respect her, her wishes, and her autonomy. what does that mean practically? well, lets say im courting a girl and shes getting short or distant with me. she may not be outright saying it, but shes telling me, for whatever reason, to back off and give her space. it may be because im coming on too strong. it may be because she had a bad day, or is busy, or just not in the mood. whatever the reason, i recognize it, i respect it, and im confident enough not to take it personally, and respect her space... .probably the same thing i would want if i was in her shoes. im not going to "whats wrong" her to death, or try to get her to open up to me. the result will be that she feels respected, and she may feel better later, but there are no games or manipulating, im not dialing back in order to win her over.

as i said, she likes you. all of the things above are attractive. she probably likes them about you. what she probably doesnt like is feeling cornered and pursued. shes sending that message. dial things back. dont push.

it would help more to know the nature of how youre texting her, the types of places youre suggesting to meet up.

[jukeboxhero]

I meant "internet experts", not experts in real life. However, I'm inclined to agree with Shari Schreiber at the moment... .My pwBPD went cold and distant on me because she had her replacement. She then discarded me, split me black, and launched into an awful tirade and revealed alot of things about herself I was oblivious to. The mask came off... .

Although, to be fair, I think she's always acting. When she's bubbly and sweet it's an act. When she's cruel and hateful, it's an act too. She becomes whatever she feels she needs to be in the moment, monster or otherwise... .

as i read it, youre approaching this in a matter that she is flawed, can be tamed, and when she comes to her senses, won back.

You're right about how I tried to approach it, and I failed because you can't fix people. A relationship with a pwBPD could only work if they're willing to start and stay in therapy.

[pearlsw]

Hi jukeboxhero,

I'm a little confused. I thought you were done with this relationship?  Are you still wanting to make an effort with her? (restabilize and rebuild) It's okay! It's understandable. Making that final decision to end things can take time and we are not going to push you to stay or leave the relationship. I just want to be sure I am up to speed because it seems like just a day ago that you felt done. Please correct me if I am wrong! And no worries! We're here for you at any stage of a relationship and all the uncertainty in between!

I know it is tempting to see our partners as "evil". I sure thought that for a long time and I went pretty far in response because I thought "Why is he able to be so "evil" and get away with so much and I'm following the rules and getting run over here? Why bother follow the rules?" I said and threw my hands up about it all. (Big mistake!)

But I didn't know he was ill, and I didn't know about this illness, and I didn't know that even having traits of it was a "thing".

Anyway, instead of an "act" it might be better to see it as elements of her personality. You don't have to like her personality and be with her if it totally compromises your dignity and is at odds with your values and expectations of a relationship. But, it is probably a better approach to stay focused on the notion of the variety of types of personalities that exist, why people might have developed that way, wish them well if we can't hang with it, and move on. Being involved with someone with a personality disorder, or any illness really, requires us to make peace with that reality and do our best to work with it, or just not do it. We will make mistakes along the way, it's inevitable I think. It serves no one for us to get stuck and be miserable.

Just my two cents.

Do you expect to have contact with her again after all she recently said? Does she say she wants a friendship?

wishing you the best, pearl.

[isilme]

You're right about how I tried to approach it, and I failed because you can't fix people. A relationship with a pwBPD could only work if they're willing to start and stay in therapy.

Partly true.  My H does not even know I suspect he has BPD.  And yet, after 10+ years on this site, I can honestly say we've moved from being so troubled together I was about to leave or self harm, to finally getting married, to having fewer incidents overall, and to reaching a place where I feel much better about him, understanding his needs and limitations.

Most of those on this board will never get their SO into therapy.  It's not the "only" way to make things "work".

We "make it work" by looking at us, and seeing how our own "reverse-BPD" causes drama and harm in its own right.  We tend to not see that our actions based on codependency and knee-jerk desires to just make them happy so they love us back and stop being angry so we can all be happy is also a problem.  We are often quiet contributors to the cycle of being recycled.   We see them as THE PROBLEM and us as victims.  Yes, we get a larger share of the responsibility as peopel with a bit more emotional control, but we can leave.  We can choose to not interact with them.  And we can learn to interact in better ways to decrease drama.  So, we are not victims.  We are participants. 

I'm afraid I'm not as knowledgeable as pearlsw or once removed about your current relationship, and so can't expand on previous posts, just this one.

when should I wait for her to make contact? Should I wait for her to suggest meeting up? When am I acting in a healthy way, and when am I just playing games and being manipulative? Being manipulative isn’t necessarily wrong, it’s all about motive.

When should you make contact?  When you feel like meeting up.  Then, stop.  Offer an invite to dinner, a movie, whatever you like to do.  If there's a response - good.  If not, leave it be, that IS your response.  If there is an angry response, it speaks for itself.  There is usually no reason to reply to angry or mean texts, so just engage a boundary and end the conversation - tell her so, or just stop responding until she stops.

Being manipulative isn't bad if your motive is good?  Kinda gotta disagree.  Unless you think it's manipulative to ask someone to meet you for dinner and re-engage in contact - yes you are hoping to influence them by mentioning you'd like to spend time together.  You are not (I hope) making up scenarios where like, someone is dying and you need to see them at the same time as the last wish to coerce them into meeting you.

We aren't doing things to "manipulate" them.  We DO make efforts to be mindful of their moods, to not invalidate (which is just kind to anyone if you think about it - the tools for BPD conversation work just fine for those who don't have it, anyway).  We DO make efforts to communicate effectively.  And we SHOULD do these things with all people with whom we interact. 

This may have a side effect of preventing a blow-up or a fight, and to get things done, but if we accept we can't change their emotions, we realize really we can't manipulate their emotions or actions.  The improvements seen from us modifying us is a side effect of our own improvements.  If we come from wanting to be healthier ourselves and to find a new way to be ourselves, it's not manipulation.  Manipulation is validation as an act.  Trying to use SET as an act.  And I don't know how you can use Sympathy, Empathy or Truth as part of an act. 

Sure, most people don't want fights and will try to communicate in ways to avoid them and allow good interactions.  Is this manipulation?  Maybe in some philosophical manner, you can dissect all human motives into being manipulative.  I move forward, arms open - I want a hug.  Am I manipulating someone by expressing my desire?  Or, is it totally okay for me to have my own desire, and to express it? 

[jukeboxhero]

I'm a little confused. I thought you were done with this relationship?  Are you still wanting to make an effort with her?

Sorry for the confusion, I had multiple threads going. In the forseeable future, I'm done with this relationship. I would be willing to make the effort, provided she was willing also. She never stays in treatment though, so I doubt it.
 

Do you expect to have contact with her again after all she recently said? Does she say she wants a friendship?

I expressed regret that we lost both our romantic relationship and our prior/underlying friendship. Her response was just, "Oh well, it happens". Towards the end of the last argument we had 3 weeks ago, I told her I would like to start over and try again. She yelled back, "It's over! Let it go!". I blocked her on facebook and messenger a day later, for my own peace of mind. There's other methods of communication though. I doubt I'll ever hear from her again, unless she splits me white and/or gets tired of her replacement(s).

[jukeboxhero]

We "make it work" by looking at us, and seeing how our own "reverse-BPD" causes drama and harm in its own right.  We tend to not see that our actions based on codependency and knee-jerk desires to just make them happy so they love us back and stop being angry so we can all be happy is also a problem.  We are often quiet contributors to the cycle of being recycled.   We see them as THE PROBLEM and us as victims.  Yes, we get a larger share of the responsibility as people with a bit more emotional control, but we can leave.  We can choose to not interact with them.  And we can learn to interact in better ways to decrease drama.  So, we are not victims.  We are participants. 

I agree completely. I finally joined codependent's anonymous a couple weeks ago. I've been reading alot about boundaries and limits.

Maybe in some philosophical manner, you can dissect all human motives into being manipulative.

I think that's kinda what I meant. Intentionally modifying my own behavior to try and illicit a desired response from the pwBPD. For example, withholding the information that she has BPD.

My initial post in this thread was really just expressing my frustration during the latest, probably final discard.

[isilme]

I think that's kinda what I meant. Intentionally modifying my own behavior to try and illicit a desired response from the pwBPD. For example, withholding the information that she has BPD.

It's a valid point though.  I mean, I've had the worry, too.  But I realize that I am hoping for certain responses from ALL people with whom I interact.  I don't talk politics with some because they are not open to my views.  I make requests for hair appointments politely because I am hoping to be considerate means my hairdresser and friend won't feel I am taking advantage of her.  I talk respectfully to my inLaws even though I know they created a lot of the pain and uncertainty H lives with because he wants a good relationship with them.  I don't talk to my boss the same way I do my friends.  Modifying behavior based on the audience is pretty normal, I think, and so I don't think it's bad.

Telling her she has BPD - will it help?  Likely not.  So I think, for now, it's okay to not mention it.  If she gets to a point where she is looking for a word, a condition to describe how she's feeling, that's a good time.  When she is open and receptive, not when it's likely to be distressing and not help.

[jukeboxhero]

Telling her she has BPD - will it help?  Likely not.  So I think, for now, it's okay to not mention it.  If she gets to a point where she is looking for a word, a condition to describe how she's feeling, that's a good time.  When she is open and receptive, not when it's likely to be distressing and not help.

We're currently NC, and probably will be for awhile at least. I suspect she may know she has BPD, based on things she's said over the years. If she does know, she's ashamed of it though. We've discussed BPD in relation to other women I've known. The irony!

[pearlsw]

I agree completely. I finally joined codependent's anonymous a couple weeks ago. I've been reading alot about boundaries and limits.


I think that's kinda what I meant. Intentionally modifying my own behavior to try and illicit a desired response from the pwBPD. For example, withholding the information that she has BPD.

My initial post in this thread was really just expressing my frustration during the latest, probably final discard.

Hi jukeboxhero,

I hope you will stick around and share what you are learning with us in your Codependents Anonymous group as time allows! It can take quite a bit of time to process relationships so we're here for ya!

Oh yes, relationships can be littered with irony!   

wishing you the best, pearl.

[jukeboxhero]

corey wayne sells a message for young, frustrated guys, in the early stages of dating, and tricks to use. some of its useful, some of its nonsense, but above all, its not a message about how to deeply connect with a long term relationship partner.

I think that Corey Wayne's material is really geared toward women with BPD traits. His mother was a paranoid schizophrenic without insight, so was mine. The way he describes typical women... .isn't typical. "She said she loved you 5 minutes ago, now she says she hates you, because that's how she's feeling in the moment"... .What does that sound like? BPD! Alot of his advice might make you "successful" in the relationship, but it's not healthy. I also realized alot after the last terrible fight, devalue, & discard. He advises you to sleep with her as soon as possible, and never talk about anything serious. So, give her sex to use as a coping mechanism. Never have deep emotional conversations which would create emotional intimacy and trigger her fear of engulfment. When I last saw her, she was screaming at me in public, that's essentially what she was saying she wanted. We never had sex (she pushed/pulled me away every time we got close, sometimes literally), but we did have alot of heart to heart conversations.


I've been thinking over the course of the relationship with my pwBPD... .About 1/2 way into our year long relationship, my T revealed to me that she was borderline. I then started enabling her worse. I just thought, "well, that's how BPD's are, I just expect this behavior". If I had healthy boundaries, it never would have lasted a year. Things also seemed more stable in the beginning when I treated her like a normal woman, stood up for myself, was completely honest with her. Granted, it was during the idealization/honeymoon phase, but we did have fights/arguments.